Reverend Theunis Botha has taken President Jacob Zuma to task for ancestral worship practices which he suggests are a primary cause of Africa’s failure to advance beyond superstition and poverty rather than colonialism.
The leader of the Christian Democratic Party described Zuma’s traditional wedding to his fifth wife, Thobeka Madiba, as a “giant step back into the dark ages”.
“Very little has been done since ‘independence’ in the way of development, with few that do not rely on handouts, especially from the West,” he said.
It was up to the churches to speak out about ancestral worship practices.
“Political parties doing so, when the churches are silent, are exposing themselves to undue criticism of being anti-black or racist,” said Botha.
Now I am assuming that by ancestral worship practices the reverend is referring to, in the main, polygamy rather than any dress or customs practised by the Zulu people in respect of weddings. If it is the latter I’d suggest he gets a course on diplomacy as many people the world over dress in traditional outfits on their wedding day.
Of course if he is referring to spiritual practices of the Zulu people, who principally follow Christianity together with their traditional ancestral beliefs, I’d refer the reverend to the tens of millions of atheists who today consider any religion as some sort of mumbo jumbo practised by the great unwashed. Accordingly as a Christian if he is in the habit of expecting religious tolerance from others best he start dishing it out in abundance as well.
My money, however, is on polygamy.
The term, in the ordinary course, refers to any form of marriage in which a person has more than one spouse at the same time.
Its application is far more widespread than just our president and includes inter alia fringe Christian groups, Mormons, Muslims and for an extended period Jews as well. During biblical times there were notable examples including both kings Solomon and David. Since Rabbi Gershom in the 11th century prohibited it, it has generally died out.
Let’s face it, which Jew looking across at his mother-in-law right now could even contemplate 4 more of the same? Muslims shouldn’t laugh because they’re allowed 4 wives so they can get there or thereabouts.
Western society generally considers it unacceptable and it is accordingly banned in many of them. In the USA for example bigamy is a crime while in other countries they prohibit people from living a polygamous lifestyle regardless of their being married or not.
In international relations consular spouses from polygamous countries may be exempt from a general prohibition on polygamy in host countries in order to obviate unnecessary problems.
Of course there are many social and psychological issues which flow from being in a polygamous relationship just as there are from being in a monogamous one. That would require a separate posting altogether.
What is clear is that many countries, religions and groups around the world practise this lifestyle and consider it best for them. In the case of President Zuma he seems to be thriving on it.
Okay the thought of 5 mother-in-laws made him miss a step and he apparently slipped and fell during a traditional solo dance at the wedding but other than that he seems blissfully happy.
The Zulu people have grown and thrived under these self-same ancestral worship practices over a number of centuries.
South Africa has definitely advanced a lot in the way of development since independence if the reverend would just stop to think carefully.
If Africa does need aid from the West and others so be it.
Nowhere has it been proved that monogamy has outstripped polygamy in terms of financial achievement or social development.
Which leaves the burning question of why the reverend chose the president’s wedding day to attack Zuma’s ancestral worship practices and to blame them for all that ails this continent?
Surely there we have someone in the dark who hasn’t smiled for ages?
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101 Responses to “Zuma’s polygamy is fine by me”
What does “the tens of millions of atheists who today consider any religion as some sort of mumbo jumbo practised by the great unwashed” mean? It’s news to me that atheists see religion as something practised by the “great unwashed”. Or is that your own take on religion? Or on atheists?
Yeah Traps, the day a Zulu Lady marries 3 men is the day I believe polygamy is a great idea, until that happens I am gonna continue believing its nothing but a way to continue the gender inequality that is well and truly entrenched in this rubbish country of ours….
for me its a question of why at the time this country is in a critical state of problems he is worried about marriages?
National security is at its worst neglect leading to insecurities and uncertainties by citizens especially in the aftermath of the US alleging there are terroriusts in this country out to blow-up its interests and his vague denioal about such presency but cannot explain how can here be no terrorists with porous borders!
A reverend moaning about ’superstition’ and ‘back to the dark ages’…. that’s hilarious.
Expecially with the recent release of the massive child abuse
by christians in Ireland (and g*d knows how many similar cases across Africa).
Let Mr Zuma marry whoever he wants, legalise gay marriage etc etc - just let everyone live the way s/he likes without imposing your bigoted stone-age points of view on others.
Zuma is marrying a woman who already has 3 children (presumably his). If he does not marry her, the children belong to her family not his.
There was confusion about Zuma’s new wife’s surname because she was known by her mother’s surname and not her father’s. The normal reason for this would be that her father would not marry her mother or pay labola for them, so she was part of her mother’s family.
The Nguni believe in having children before marriage, to prove that the woman is fertile. This is the reason for so many single parent families in Southern Africa - the men abscond.
If Zuma is bringing back traditions, I hope he brings back the tradition of ostracising the men who have children and then do NOT marry the women.
And ancestors are not worshipped but regarded as intermediaries with God - like the Catholics who pray to the saints and to Mary (also to act as intermediatories)
It seems to me that Zuma is very selective about the cultural practices he re-introduces.
The Zulu method of birth control was that a woman should not have another child until the older was 3 years old and properly weaned. If a woman fell pregnant before - the man was ridiculed as being unable to control himself. Has Zuma re-introduced that?
In Zulu culture only the Royal Family can wear the leopard skin (meaning King Goodwill and Prince Buthelezi can). When did Zuma change his bloodline to royalty?
Sorry don’t practice either, I am guessing Polyandry is not looked on as a great Zulu tradition, its all load of bollocks subjugating woman to nothing but a station above a cow, not really very modern, probably from the dark ages, but each to there own, we cannot be far away beating woman for wearing pants again or calling gays unafrican, apparently also a Zulu tradition….. God (if there is one) I wish I lived in the first world….
A while back, a journalist in France, interviewed a large number of francophone African women what they thought of polygamy. Their answer:they didn’t think it was so wonderful for themselves personally, but the real problem was about the children; the children of the ‘favourite’ wife would be favoured with first call on education, food, clothes and so forth. This urge to foster their children and their inability to do so in the context of polygamy and therefore dependence on the father, caused them real pain.
Traps your response to “me” is correct, and polyandry is practiced in a few domains. However, and this is where I believe “me” is alluding to. In SA polygamy is “legal”; whilst polyandry is not.
Traps ou’re the lawyer, is my belief correct? If it is correct then why one law for men and another opposite law for women? That does not sit well with me!
I have to agree with you that people’s marital practices are up to them and none of anyone else’s business - as long as all parties are consenting adults, then the state or the general public has no right to intrude. However I would suggest that however many wives and kids one has, a key factor in your kids’ success in life is the level of parental involvement in their upbringing - especially from fathers, which is extremely unusual in SA. Hence I hope that all the kids will get love, affection and attention, and strong paternal care.
It’s fine by me as well as long as he pays for their upkeep and it isn’t passed on to the already over burdened taxpayer. He should be entitled to laim for only 1 wife and that should be his first. The rest should be for Zuma’s bill.
Quite correct Michael and there is a northern African country where it is practised! Religion is a lot of superstitious, patriarchal rubbish, which we have been force fed as children. It is the cause of mostr wars and genocides, plus woman and child abuse, throughout the ages.
Time we blew it out of the water completely and went back to basic ethics, free of superstition.
First I want to comment on the opportunist remarks made by Reverend Theunis Botham
It is rather interesting that,he chose president Zuma’s wedding to comment on
Afica’s failure to advance poverty rather than colonialism.
Secondly I feel there is a need for any leader, whether Political or
Relegious to respect the truth.In that the “steping back into dark days”
By Africa can not be caused by ancestral worship.
Reverend needs to be reminded that Colonialism alone will always
Be the biggest step back that has ever visited this beautiful continent,
NotAncestral worship nor President Zuma’s wedding, and that is
A fact.
Tim, you must get a life.When other men are cheating do they care about the county’s status?
What President Zuma is doing with his private life has got nothing to do with us. That goes to all of you who are being disrespectful to our President.
Marry all your heart desires, Zuma, but must the taxpayer cough up for all these women to be kept in presidential splendour? Pay for their upkeep out of your own wages, like the rest of us have to do.
The padre is of course an implausible, glass-house-occupying critic.
But is it really good for SA’s image and standing to have its polygamous president appearing dancing and cavorting in animal skins (and incongruous Western trainers) like something out of a Hollywood B-movie?
Absolutely agreed. We live in a free country, where we all have the right to pursue the life we wish to pursue. This is not the dark ages - it is precisely because we are in a democratic country that we should have space to live our lives the way we want - as long it is not illegal, and does not infringe on anyone else’s toes, the Pres (or any many for that matter) can marry as many wives as he likes. There’s no ancestral worship here - so let’s not consfuse issues. Here are willing adults entering into a marriage (that appears like a headache for us mere mortals) - I say let them!!!
Mr. Trapido. Semantics aside and, while I wouldn’t put it quite as stridently as me (weird clause), there is a point here.
You have a background in law. Surely there is a constitutional imperative for gender equality that supercedes cultural considerations?
If, for example, one of President Zuma’s wives should wish to take another husband (or wife), is there anything to prevent that? Why would anyone with a sense of gender equality even contest the point.
who cares… at least JZ marries his women… while every other politician has how many undercover squeezas… ??? and while we’re on the subject, Shiva has 18 wives… and what about Abraham + Sarah + Hagar… does the bible endorse 3somes ??? a little MFF girl-on-girl action… at least JZ doesnt discriminate between his 18 kids… Abraham sent his illegitimate lightie off into the wilderness to become the Nation of Islam… amd see how that turned out… funny that Abraham is a christian icon… how come the one son is a jew and the other is a muslim… maybe the christianity thing in and by itself was seen in those days as a step backwards… no? yeah tolerance is a good idea when ur on the backfoot, isnt it Theunis…
If one cares to read the bible stories about famous figures who had more than one wife one notices that often nothing but trouble came of it. King David being a prime example. In Christian belief the union between one man and one woman images the union of Christ and His church. This image and its message will be lost on many, if not most people as it is purely spiritual. It was on this basis I believe that the apostles advocated the one man-one woman concept. When the christian missionaries reached heathen people they often encountered superstition, ancestor worship or reverence and polyamy. All these things were seen as a hindrance to understanding the meaning of the gospel message which is the redemption of mankind. The reverend criticising Zuma may have had this in mind. I admit that a watered down version of christianity has not only clouded the original message but also created countless many opportunities to point an accusing finger at christianity as a whole. Some examples of this can be read on this very forum. And indeed, too many so-called christians, even leaders among them have given christianity a bad name. Their doings should however not reflect on the original message and on those who strive to live by it. In the words of Jesus ´in the age to come there will be no marriage but they will be like the angels in heaven´. And ´he who has an ear let him hear´.
I really don’t care if he has 5 wifes, he can have as many as he wants, just as long as he does his job well.
Maybe we should even offer him wifes as incentives:
* 3 for solving the Zimbabwe issue;
* 6 for dealing with the crime;
* 8 for dealing with unemployment;
* 10 for adressing poverty.
I don’t think the reverend was speaking about polygamy itself when he said ancestral worship. I suspect he was referring to rituals that take place during the wedding ceremony, that are ancestral worship.
Also, the “return to ancestral worship” thing really puzzled me till I remembered that Zuma seemed to be doing everything he could to court Christian churches earlier this year. Very public appearances in church services, speaking in churches, purposeful use of biblical metaphor in speeches.
So maybe “return to ancestral worship” meant that people such as the reverend assumed that he was a Christian, and are now alarmed to realise he is a follower of such “ancestral worship” practices.
I am totally fine with polygamy / polyandry / group marriages. I believe in free association. People need to to stop legislating morality for other people!
I understand this reverend to imply that any cultural practices and / or beliefs that go against his are outdated.
How can that be so?
His very own bible will tell him that the practice of polygamy was widespread throughout the world including the very places where most of the stories in the bible took place. He should also be aware that it took one man (i.e. Rabbi Gershom) to outlaw it, as it were. Therefore, he cannot possibly tell me that this was an instruction from god or whomever his parish praises.
On the question of ancestral worhsip, aren’t Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Mary et al ancestors?
Why should africans praise jewish ancestors as opposed to their own?
I agree with you that ‘millions of people the world over view religion as some sort of mumbo jumbo practice’.
If this country is so “rubbish” why are you still living in it? get out now, we don’t want you. Zuma has 3 current wives and all are very happy. it is their decision so lets live and let live. i would not want to be in such a marriage but then i don’t believe in marriage at all - for me. each to his own.
@Shelag. Welcome to the sceptics world! Must say, I think the description of religion as “mumbo jumbo practised by the great unwashed” makes perfect sense (apt description, Mr. Trapido). One just has to observe religious intolerance everywhere (from the good reverend Theuns Botha’s comments on Zuma to those made by religous zealots the world over). Funny how we find it especially amongst the “great unwashed”? As for traditional customs - leave religion out of it. Good luck with no. 5, Mr. President.
Traps, Happy new year.
“Nowhere has it been proved that monogamy has outstripped polygamy in terms of financial achievement or social development”
I beg to differ. The countries that generate wealth all outlaw polygamy.
The few exeptions are countries that are lucky to have oil which was discovered by Britain and is bought by non-poligamast countries.
As a black Christian what I know is that the battle is to win souls from unChristian ways. Those ways are not confined to African practises as certainly the Jews of old also felt aggrieved at perceived attacks of their culture or known worship, the European practices are also not spared. Since the advent of Protestatism the old Christianity of The Catholic church has always been under attack. Even the pagan origins and customs of Christmas not to talk about the day itself or the Ave Maria are sacrosanct. The difference between the Christianity of old and new is as the great atheist Lord Bertrand Russell observed in his essay, “The Ancestry of Fascism” (in the collection entitled “In Praise Of Idleness”)Christianity seeks to convert by persuasion. The Reverend is doing what any leader of the flock ought to do to counter the other practises though some have pointed to his race. It is in fact quite refreshing to see these cultural battles in our landscape of political correctness.
My understanding of culture is that it belongs to eras or epochs though some traditions could transcend eras. Shaka adapted culture to present conditions. Hence the debate should be on the merits of polygamy in our landscape.
Having travelled a lot in Africa, seen among many works, family planning, sexual health, behaviour change etc by governments, UN, NGOs. The success hinges on a leadership whose popular culture does not contradict these initiatives. Can we honestly say our leadership passes the test?
Nells, respect this, respect that, what a load of old bollocks
If he does not want his private life exposed he should not be a public figure spending the tax money I work very hard to make.
The old African don’t question the elders is a load of rubbish and the signs of its corrupting effects can be seen north of all our borders…..
This is simple tradition based gender inequality
“Nowhere has it been proved that monogamy has outstripped polygamy in terms of financial achievement or social development”
Really, so those villagers who want to practice their traditios or be like the president are able to feed and clothe their multiple wives and many many children? Please, what achievement will those poor kids get, especially girls, in this backward society?
P.S. Ok, let mr President marry whoever he wants, but please let him pay with his salary, not my tax money.
avishkar on January 6th, 2010 at 12:19 am
Polygamy was allowed in the Old Testament, basically to “fill the earth”.
In the New Testament, Jesus laid out the new rules i.e. one husband, one wife AND that if a husband was cheating, the wife may divorce. Up until then men could do WHATEVER they liked. You could basically say the Jesus was the very first liberator of women. Most of the men back then did not like this…. and, well…. he ended up dead didn’t he? For rocking the boat with SO MANY other things.
P.S. Ancestor worship, divination, magic practices, etc. are all condemned in the Bible, so mixing Christianity with such things is displeasing to God. I’m afraid these poor people are being totally misled.
Until humans grant each other the right to live their lives according to their personal preferences, the State will continue to define what is and what is not acceptable in marriage.
My own view is that far too many people marry. Far too many people–married and unmarried–have children they are neither temperamentally or economically unable to care for.
If any ‘lifestyle’ should be encouraged in the age of universal abuse of women and children, I think it should be the ’single forever’ lifestyle (I hate that word!). Young adults who have no interest in having children should be encouraged to have surgery to prevent conception. Those who aren’t sure what they want, should have access to all forms of birth control. If necessary pay young women NOT to have children until they are educated and capable of supporting themselves.
De-romanticise both the ‘Wedding Day’ and motherhood. Young girls spend far more time thinking about the kind of wedding they want than they do about the kind of marriage they want. “Motherhood” has been such an icon of Womanhood that two are nearly inseparable. One can be a fully adult human and a happy woman without having children.
In a world where 50% of marriages end in divorce or permanent separation, we need to encourage different forms of relationship such as renewable marriage contracts rather than ’til death do us part’ .
The Celts of Ireland had a good system of temporary marriage controlled by the women. Hmmmmm
Dictionary : pol·y·an·dry “The condition or practice of having more than one husband at one time.”
But Rasta is right Polygamy covers both so you are also right ME.
Is it legal in South Africa?
I haven’t the foggiest idea.
I’ve never come accross it but would suggest that in light of the men being allowed several wives it would be outrageous to deny women the same rights.
Perhaps another member of our panel knows (comments section?)
As a lawyer I can promise you polyandry is rarer than a Derby County away goal.
Cant a man be left alone to do what his heart desires?it is not about what a Botha thinks,but about what is right for two concenting adults.If you can allow homosexuality,why not polygamy?
I guess all those who have a problem with it have girlfriends on the side,with their love children.It is promiscuity.Besides,i never heard the women complaining.Only the bitter and jilted ones who have an overgrown hatred of men.Wait till she is charmed and she will change the tune.
Christianity is only relevant to those who are willing to engage in an epic ’suspension of disbelief’ in order to accept the preposterous notion that we are born with the stain of ‘original sin’ on our infant souls! This utterly repugnant doctrine and the equally repugnant insistence that humanity could only be ‘redeemed’ by the gruesome torture and death of ‘god’s only son’, has had disastrous consequences for humans and all life on this planet.
The cultural artifacts of ‘christianity’ like gothic cathedrals and the music of Handel could also have been produced as a celebration of ‘Original Blessing’ or ‘Grace’ if one insists on having a religion. The emphasis on ’sin’ and the death cult that mar Christianity are just as ‘primitive’ as ancestor worship. At least one knows one’s ancestors did exist!
It is time to put away childish things and evolve to the next level of existence. If we are the children of anything, we are the children of the Universe and maybe, just maybe, that is what we here to do: to mature to self-aware, curious, questing, people who focus on seeking answers to the great questions of existence such as: Who are we and why are we here? ARE we here or is ‘life’ an illusion? Are there other self-aware species in the Universe? How can we connect with them and learn from them? How did the Universe (and possible other universes) come into being?
I think GS van Zyl has a great point. How about the taxpayers offering to keep one of Zuma’s wives for every 1 000 000 tax-paying jobs he introduces in the country during his term(s)? That would cut the social welfare bill considerably and make the wives affordable.
While Zuma’s personal life is really no concern of mine, I do worry about how he’ll afford to educate all those children. He has, a TV news report said, 18, several of whom are not yet of school-going age.
Will he open a school under the trees of his kraal (which the education system feels is unfair) or trek them all off to private schools? The first he could doubtless easily afford; the second? I have my doubts.
Even a president’s salary is not limitless…perhaps that’s why Shabir got out of jail free, to reaccess the payment plan and education policies.
Ag please leave Zuma alone! The man, despite all the challenges and the yet-to-be-realised electoral promises, has given us a breath of fresh air - more political tolerance and thicker skin than his predecessor - since he came to power. Many seem to prefer serial philanderers (think Tiger Woods - “ask no question hear no lies”) to an honest man who consensually marries the women with whom he has sex. Bring me a polygamist /polyandrist anytime because at least they do not hide their sexual partners in closets!
Now, i can tell you as a Nguni man that our forefathers paid prime lobola for a virgin woman. and one who had kids was likely not to get married, or get a 3rd grade husband for minor lobola.
On ancestral worship, this always makes me laugh. The church and missioneries have been here for awhile now and still haven’t figured this one out. The reason, ladies and gentlemen, that Africans take christianity and our own practises hand-in-hand is a very simple one.
Before the first bible-wielding, pale-skin fundamentalist landed his boots on Cape Peninsula’s sandy beaches this is what we were doing. We are not permitted to directly communicate with G-D, who we (Xhosas) have called Qamata for a few millenia. The only we do this is via our ancestors. I think most of the Nguni tribes have more or less the same practises. Now the reverend could have had a nice chat over tea(whisky) with one of his flock and he could have educated himself before tripping on his holy robes
The only problems I have with President Zuma’s polygamy are as follows:
1. I have yet to see polyandry practiced in SA, and I doubt a woman with three husbands would be considered acceptable by the people who are most vocal about how acceptable this marriage is.
2. It makes President Zuma’s near-continuous public fellating of Ray McCauley ahead of last year’s elections look even more hypocritical than it already looked.
Furthermore, outside of a few progressive clerics, nobody involved in the business of religion in this country has any room whatsoever to criticise how others conduct their lives - where were you lot in the apartheid days? Keeping damn quiet, that’s where you were for the most part.
The Reverend argues outdated rituals hold societies back. How on earth can Traps argue this? It is one thing to protest against people who patronise Zulu culture for no reason other than it’s being different or outdated - that is disrespectful. It is something else to pander to Zulu politicians and pretend that the practice of polygamy is “equally” modern and universal. The Reverend points out the obvious - that Africa (the poorest continent etc) is held back by its rituals - so why is Traps closing his eyes to the issues raised of family health and size, gender equality and population pressure in a country (and province) with extreme level of unemployment, family breakdown, povery, AIDS, illiteracy ets. All this is moot anyway; is there any question about the eventual disappearance of polygamy as South Africa progresses, urbanises and democratises?
The South African constitution is very clear on the subject,who are we then to rubish any dicisions made by our fellow South Africans like the President of the Republic.Zuma’s polygamy is fine by me,Raps I am with you on that one.
The South African constitution is very clear on the subject,who are we then to rubish any dicisions made by our fellow South Africans like the President of the Republic.Zuma’s polygamy is fine by me,Traps I am with you on that one
As long as the taxpayer only has to pay for one of these wives, he’s welcome to them. Talk about “Three Tons of Fun”. If we have to pay for them all it’s a no-no!
@Sakhile Mqombote,
“Reverend needs to be reminded that Colonialism alone will always
Be the biggest step back that has ever visited this beautiful continent,
NotAncestral worship nor President Zuma’s wedding, and that is a fact”.
No, it’s just your opinion.
If you knew what polygamy does to the innocent children involved, you’d have thought several times prior to publishing this article. Unfortunately, you aren’t aware of the impact on all the relevant parties involved. Next time, try to look at the picture wholistically or speak to people who’ve experienced this firsthand.
@ Maggie… “Jesus was the very first liberator of women. Most of the men back then did not like this…. and, well…. he ended up dead didn’t he? For rocking the boat with SO MANY other things.”
big up the big man… JC… its unfortunate that so many who trade on his name and goodwill arent really worthy of doing so… but then again, Mohommed and the modern Imams, Valluvar and the corrupt ministers… its all the same innit?
i dont object to theunis having an opinion… but does he have to call our culture as zulu people… a step back into the dark ages… i mean what is sokkiedraai, langarm and boereorkes if not a step back into the dark ages… and has the recipe for koeksusters changed in any way since victoria was queen… no, so that makes every cake sale… what? a victorian retro-revival, doesnt it Theunis…
viva polygamy, viva multicouple marriages, viva extended families, viva the communal raising of children… oh wait… that what Socrates wanted isnt it, hey theunis…
@Siobhan As the subject was the wives of the president and the critcism of one Reverend Theunis Botha, I confined my comment to what the christian belief is about marriage. I did not pass judgment on the president.
In passing I mentioend the redemption of mankind. Your first paragraph confirms the following bible verse:’so when we preach about Christ dying to save them (mankind), some (the Jews) are offended and others (the Gentiles) say its all nonsense’.
The notion that we are born with the stain of ‘original sin’ on our infant souls is a concept from the middle-ages and is not part of original christian belief (although many unfortunately still subscribe to it).
The big questions about our existense as part of the universe are, I believe, in the minds of most thinking people who are seeking answers. But since we cannot really explain life in the little things around us except that it (apparently) exists, scouting around in the universe a la Startrek for new worlds to discover will for the moment at least have to wait. I grant you that Startrek may seem more interesting than to study what you call a repugnant doctrine based on a gruesome death. But where the former reamins fantasy the latter may well propel you to the next level of existence: ‘being reborn’ in the words of the One who was so gruesomely put to death.
No Mandrake, the Zuma issue is not over until the finances are clear:
who is paying for all the wives and children? More are on the way as well!
If its the taxpayer ( to the tune of R65 million) then new laws are needed to prevent more than one wife registering for benefits such as pensions as this will drive the State broke.
If all this is on his own accounts then he can have a dozen as far as I’m concerned.. It looks awful at state/international functions but it leaves the correct impression…
BTW the good life is catching up with JZ -did you see how he grimaced in pain when he had to ‘donza’ at the wedding? Must have bad gout
The question of who is going to pay their upkeep and do these wives quailify for the benifits as his wives? Is his pension paid to each upon his death Or is his pension divided up?
Another question. Why is Zuma’s brother getting so many contracts from the KZN and Local government?
Serial Monogamy is normative in much of society and the overlaps make it pretty close to a secretive polygamy. Polyndry in such a context overlaps too. So contemporary society has created a secretive polygamy and polyandry and a tabloidal morality with no bearing on understanding human sexuality. Look at poor old Tiger he gets it all on revelation and the press profits from secrecy by breaking it. The best people in modern times don’t care about any of this. Traps you can score points off a brainless Botha fundamentalist. Agnostic on all things is the best way to be and talk about something else; real sexual and relationship practise in human society and not authoritarian perceptions of the others sexuality this is all high up on the F Scale the whole discussion.Religiosity and its comaparisons lead us to the understanding of nothing. Read the Logic of Life its got some interesting perceptions of human sexuality in contemprary times and sock it to the Rabbis, Bishops and Imams who take us back to the hell of their imaginings and attitudes to one another. Malawi is about to intern a Gay couple and is having them examined for Mental illness and is claiming Christianity. All these religions claim Sodom is upon us and invite damnation on humankind in their finger pointing.Bring back Sigmund to explain it all that eminent refugee from the fallout of Authoritarian rule may his soul rest in peace.
The Reverend is a bloody hypocrite. Thousands of people have been killed the world over throught history ( as in Crusades) and continue to be killed ( as in war on terror) by people masquarading as Christians, all in the name of religion.
I ask of the Reverend, how does one’s marrying of more than one wife make him more barbaric than the terorist disguised as a Christian killing thousands of innocent women and children in Iraq, Afghanistan and the middle east?
AN dby the way, if our so called liberal democracies are prepared to legalise same sex marriages - which the Reverend seem not to have a problem with, then why single out poligamy?
From where i stand, marriage is a personal choice between the parties involved, and has nothing to do with the Clerics, unless if they are invited.
But then again, religion is all about power, greed and control of the people
One slightly hidden issue here. Widespread polygamy causes a shortage of eligible women in the mating pond. That leads to plenty of young men without a sexual partner or the ability to marry. That lends itself perfectly to a warlike society with lots of angry, insecure young soldiers with no hope of achieving social status or quelling their sexual urges.
Zuma’s polygamy is quaint; a somewhat pathetic display of childlike chest beating. He is the Zulu version of the dick in the Porsche. Should it become widespread, however, it is not a healthy biological state for a population to be in unless we are losing a lot of young men in a war which is, no doubt, where the practise evolved from.
Luckily for us, the majority of South Africans no longer measure their worth by the number of wives that they can display at social functions. If they start doing this, however, expect violence to women and rape to leave the stratosphere in SA where we will have the need but not the Islamic laws or Zulu discipline of old to control the need. History has shown that a true polygamous society needs draconian controls.
The problem here is not the Reverend, but its us. We deliberately forget that Religion is all about ‘CONTROL’, so the Reverend is only doing his job as expected. Religion would like to dictate to everyone who they should befriend, who they should marry, how they should live their lives, what to eat or drink e.t.c. And its worse if that religious group happens to be Christian.
My advise to the Reverend is maybe they should change tactics - the one used here has already sold the plot out. People are much more illuminated now and can see through the smoke screens.
So give it up Reverend - we are not interested.
The christians are at it again with their backward christian voodoo. The president has 3 wives and has for sometime this was an official welcome of the third wife to the clan, like we Nguni’s do. for the record the president did not slip and fall, it is part of the Zulu dance move. He managed to have 3 wives before and there was no Tax payers money involved. Get over it he likes it in 3’s. Congratulations Mr President Uyindoda Yamadoda.
Jon Story, you are telling “stories”. If you have one iota of evidence - any real, actual evidence - come forward with it and become WORLD FAMOUS. Because up to now not one shred of hard evidence exists for your “story”.
Again, let me riposte accordingly Lyndall. Please point out to me where i said white or yellow ancestors don’t exist. And secondly, name one Nguni culture where marriage was preferential to woman who already had kids. things have changed i agree, but even today lobola negotiations go around the “purity” of the girl and what achievements she’s made…like coming from a good family and having no children and such.
hence i qouote “that our forefathers paid prime lobola “.
@Nguni, i completely i agree with you. But as long as us South Africans banter about religion and how Gareth Cliff commented about Manto we will never stand together Black/white/coloured/chinese/purple and collectively tell these detractors we’re tired. we’re happy to sit behind our desks, fingers on keyboard and play judge and jury. Look at the Tony Yengeni’s, the Schabir Schaiks, the Selebi’s who will go free, Ngconde Balfour who was fingered for corrupt tenders….that just disappeared like Mathe at C-Max. Irregardless how much the DA makes a noise, a Porsche Cayenne will still be paid for courtesy of parliament.
So, i’m tired of analyzing Zuma and Malema and their ilk. Gimme solutions and i’ll be shoulder to should with you like a Spartan warrior (rather short and fat one) but i’ll be there.
Jeff on January 6th, 2010 at 7:52 pm
You are wrong.
Colonialism improved most of the richest countries in the world - USA, Canada, Australia, India etc.
Look at what’s happened to post colonial Africa.
Hugh the question about Zuma’s brother answers itself.
I dont care how many wives the president has, except that I read somewhere that his wives are looked after on a state budget, meaning taxpayers foot the bill…can someone elaborate perhaps and confirm this to be true? If so, have the laws changed in this country to enable Zuma to take so many wives on our hard earned money?
ME - This is a genuine question: How does this position a woman to a station just above a cow? Do these people not consent? If they do, should you not be addressing them instead?
I mean telling them that by subjecting themselves to this polygamous involvement they are marginally different from cows. If you go (physically) to tell them this - I suggest you do so in an armored truck!
Polygyny is correlated with societies in which women have lower social status and there is a small, powerful elite who can afford multiple wives while the lesser males make do with prostitutes.
Trapido is either ignorant of this, or deliberately avoids it.
From the tired old mother-in-law jibes, a staple of male chauvinism, one has to question his attitude towards women and their emancipation.
seems to me that the two reverends must just fight it out . I refer to reverend Botha and reverend Zuma..lest we forget, Zuma was ordained during his campaign trail. One wonders whether he has ever led a service…….I recall one of the commandments that says Ungaliphathi ngeze igamana lenkosi (do not bring God’s name into disrepute) or something like that. Some people have it coming…..
“Colonialism improved most of the richest countries in the world - USA, Canada, Australia, India etc.”
No, it’s immigration (distinct from Colonialism) that helped USA, Canada, Australia. I guess Colonialism cleared out those pesky natives to give the new arrivals the space they needed.
India had a rich and diverse history of science and politics way before the Raj. It’s utter k4k to suggest that colonialism “helped” them or anyone except the colonists.
Then there’s South America, South East Asia and all the other spots where colonialism festered, all of them still suffering from the negative effects of Colonialism.
I try to keep things civil online, but, really, get a clue.
Banana, you might have a point. he’s been seeing this latest bride for awhile now. maybe he’s just ensuring that when he steps down from the presidencies all his “concubines” ( to quote julius malema ) are looked after.
Damn, i’m in the wrong trade. maybe i should work for the state
My maid in Cape Town was paid 10 cows labola by the father of her daughter for the child (which grew into a whole herd - until the ANC stopped controlling stocktheft ).
Do you really not know that men must pay labola for children?
Again Lyndall you completely lose my point here. I’m telling you what “izithethe namasiko akwantu” (our traditions, rituals and beliefs) explicitly states. What we do these days with our own traditions is vexing and saddens me, but nonetheless that isn’t law. Ask any person who knows anything(don’t quote books) about Nguni traditions and they’ll agree with me.
what i’m trying to correct is below statement you made.
“The Nguni believe in having children before marriage, to prove that the woman is fertile. This is the reason for so many single parent families in Southern Africa - the men abscond.”
Basically if you’re Nguni and you marry a woman with kids she was seen as “damaged goods”. Agree, things have changed…but you have to understand where things come from, and to a degree those haven’t changed in practising areas ie, rural areas.
Hugh, please tell us about the contracts. I’d like to know more…
Someone who knows the truth about wives on state budgets (and what the kids are on — social welfare?) please tell us.
Anyone who practices and knows Nguni/Zulu culture more thoroughly would be welcome to tells us more.
What I hate about these comments is they invariably turn into sniping moments and no one learns anything intelligent.
If the concept of ‘original sin’ is no longer the official doctrine of the church, why are they still practicing baptism–the purpose of which is to ‘wash away the stain of original sin’?
I still maintain that the notion of a ‘god’ descending to earth through the womb of a virgin and dying for the sins of all is the height of absurdity. No serious theologian of the stature of a Kung or Schillebeeks would defend such patent nonsense. Instead, they use the christian mythos as the basis for a workable moral and ethical code. No miracles, no visions, no prophecies are needed to establish that it makes sense to treat others as one would wish oneself to be treated.
I am not a Star-trek fantasist but one could do worse than emulate the social model of people of different ethnicities and cultures working together for a greater purpose than personal self-interest. The truth is that we know very little about the life we find ourselves in and even less about the rest of the universe. My point (above) was that if we are to keep evolving as a species (even a la de Chardin’s model), we need to let go of our dependence on notions of ‘redemption’ and ‘miracles’ as the content of religion. Our rightful occupation as sentient and intelligent beings is to learn all we can about the nature of reality. ‘God’ is in the details.
@Sioban
Eloquent and beautiful, if slightly off this current subject comment in the moranism of christianity. If you are interested in contributing to a strong aethiest website please contact me at waudits.co.za
My concern with Zuma’s behaviour has nothing to do with religion - only with his apparent respect for a primitive past of the type that has crippled post colonial Africa.
Men don’t pay lobola for children, thats a completely different topic.
If as a man you make a woman pregnant before you marry her, your family (uncles and such) pay a fine. Sometimes its the equivalent of a few sheep or one cow depending on the family agreements.
Lyndall, why do you insist on trying to argue with me about my own culture? As part of my manhood “ritual” these are laws and tenets of my culture that i learn under very strenous circumstances. They are imbued onto my soul like the songs Xhosa men sing when coming back from isolation into the real world.
a woman with children or pregnant is seen as “used goods” on lobola negotiations and more so if she is not marrying the father of the child. When the man who has fathered a child goes to pay for isisu/damages (paying for the child) he will be given an option to take the woman as well paying a bit more but less than for a pure woman “more like a discounted combo” mainly because the family wants to avoid the shame of their daughter having a child out of wedlock. It is not desirable to fall pregnant before lobola at all because it decreases the woman’s monetary value in any case. It is noble for a man to choose the option of taking the damaged woman.
I’m Nguni and we certainly dont believe in having children before marraige to prove fertility, that is a disgrace. I dont know where you get this from Lyndall, but if you want to know why its so prominent, ask me and i will fill you in.
@ Lyndal don’t confuse your hear-say or reported ways of the Zulus with life. You obviously feel that your glass is full on the issue of the Nguni people so it will be really difficult for you to learn more.
Don’t make yourself the self elected guradian of the Zulu ways of being mayble learn the whole Zulu language speak it for a few years and then start learning about the people when you understand their language and only then i can get back to you.
THE TRADITIONALIST WHO SLAUGHTERED ON THE 25th December has spoken!
@ Siobhan.
We deviate from the subject which was Mr Zuma’s wives.
If sin was original, i.e. part of the design, a little baptismal water could obviously not wash it away. You cannot remove the engine by washing your car.
You would need to acqaint yourself with the meaning of baptism, which is, in short, a prayer to God of a good (clear) conscience. For an ‘unbeliever’ that would probably not mean anything.
The quasy-theologians you mention are at pains to what they call demythologise the bible. Despite their title they lack apparent belief in God. Because, if one wants to know God (theos=God;logos=knowledge) the fitst requirement is to believe that He exists.
Does that make them bad people, no, because the core of christian belief is exactly this: to treat your neighbour as you would wish him/her to treat you. That the (christian) church has too often failed to practise this I am the first to admit (see my first posting).
Interesting that you mention us evolving as a species. What if God took a pre-historic neanderthal as the raw material to model the human species as we know him/her, in his likeness? And if God is the final reality what further evolvement could there be? Physically, mentally? Maybe. It is however my belief that God is Spirit and that any evolvement must be in His -the spiritual - direction. Until we see all the details.
There seems to be more to Mr Zuma taking another wife then the Reverend Botha accounted for. The black folk which the white missionaries encountered had/have a wealth of tradition on which their way of life was, and still is, ordered. We are now learning a lot about e.g. lobola and the value of women in their culture. Things which to (white) christian missionaries ran in their view against christian beliefs and values. Some of them mastered the language and managed to persuade black people to renounce their traditional ways while others considered that a combination of tradition and christianity was possible opening up a way to perhaps claim more converts. I understand that Mr Zuma is an ordained minister but at the same time also partakes in the Zulu culture of having more than one wife. To my western christian mind one man cannot be worth more than one wife and they must be on equal footing. The value of a woman cannot, I think, be expressed in cows or sheep. Of course, in the west the cattle have been replaced by perhaps a(very)expensive ring, a dowry and/or a lavish party.
There is always more than meets the eye, so condemnation either way is not wise. Ridiculing or mud-slinging is even less clever. Zuma and his wife(s) are consenting adults and if there is a (last) judgement on this they and no one else will have to answer for it.
God…Does she or doesn’t she?
Exist, that is.
I don’t know but neither does anyone else.
The various versions of ‘god’ that humans have invented are fascinating emanations from the depths of consciousness. These archetypal creations reflect our deepest fears and our highest aspirations. As such they embody the potential to encourage both good and evil. And, true to form, belief in various ‘gods’ have given us a lot of both.
What all monotheistic religions have in common is the provision of an ‘ultimate authority’ that supposedly resides outside the human mind. Believers accept that ‘authority’; skeptics question its origin and its nature.
Given the absence of definitive proof I think the best one can do is to adopt the agnostic position: there may be an entity or force or energy that created all that exists–including itself!–but we have no way of knowing beyond a reasonable doubt that there is such an entity. We would welcome proof in either case (god, no god) but we must live with uncertainty in the interim.
This does not mean agnostics–or atheists for that matter–are immoral or even amoral. A personal code of ethics may closely resemble the ‘Eight Beatitudes’ from the New Testament ’sermon on the mount’. Religion and ethics, however, are neither synonymous nor interdependent.
An open but questioning mind and a compassionate heart; not a bad approach to life.
Schillebeeks, Kung and de Chardin share brilliance, scholarship, and honesty. Not bad for Theologians.
Once again - religion becomes a divisive factor. Religion is the prime cause of conflicts, wars and genocide the world over! Let the biblical prophecy ring true - let the governments of the world ban all religion!
@Lyndall
hahahahaha……i couldnt help but laugh at your comment. did you just suggest that we watch isidingo to learn about our culture????? So this is what is has come down to ,maAgnes le bo Zeb. this is simple i have a suggestion for you, stop commenting on issues that you dont understand.
@brandon - Religion means rules and regulations, hardly ever freedom of thinking and speech. Even African culture has its own set of rules, which is eg that Mr Zuma can have more than one simultaneous wife.
Wars are in some cases known to have started because of religious differences but more often (I think) because of landhunger, revenge for previous defeats,(WWII) and more recently, oil and to counter terrorism. Christianity and Islam have been at war in the past to increase their sphere of influence. The pharaos went forth to conquer with the blessing of their gods, the Germans had Gott mit uns on their buckles and in England the war flags hang in churches all over the country to witness that God has blessed the war effort. In that sense war and religion seem to be linked, I agree. But as long as man has not learned to be compassionate and to love his neighbour as himself, bloody conflicts will persist. The biblical prophesy points to a battle which will not be fought on earth but in the heart and minds of people (the spiritual realm if you like) between good and evil. That good will eventually prevail, I have no doubt about. What happens after is beyond words.
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big up the big man… JC… its unfortunate that so many who trade on his name and goodwill arent really worthy of doing so… but then again, Mohommed and the modern Imams, Valluvar and the corrupt ministers… its all the same innit?
What does “the tens of millions of atheists who today consider any religion as some sort of mumbo jumbo practised by the great unwashed” mean? It’s news to me that atheists see religion as something practised by the “great unwashed”. Or is that your own take on religion? Or on atheists?
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