When Springbok captain John Smit explained to those who had waived the old flags in the faces of him and his team that the players were aware of the fact that they were playing for all South Africans not just a minority, he captured right there the essence of the debate.
The old South African flag represents a minority while the new an entire country.
Though some are going to great lengths to point out that the old flag has not been banned and that waving it is not illegal they are missing the point. It is offensive to the vast majority of the people of this country because it was one of the primary symbols of apartheid. It stood for whites only, passbooks and any number of other evils that flowed from that system.
In essence by waving it you are throwing that in the faces of your countrymen and women and rejoicing over a disgraceful period in our history.
Yet even if it were only offensive to a minority would that make it any better?
How would Jews and other people feel, if for example, people started waving swastikas and Nazi flags around?
Does the fact that the law may not ban something highly offensive make it alright to trot it out?
Of course the big argument being put forward is that it constitutes freedom of speech and expression. People should be allowed to do and say things that are within the law no matter how offensive we may find that.
I am a great advocate of just that proposition.
However we must have regard to the fact that while the act itself is legal the consequences may well not be. By waving a red flag in front of a bull (get it … flags and bulls — after the debates this week) you are inciting violence.
Of course this will raise the question of who is inciting the violence; the flag waver or the party who reacts to its legal (and immoral) display?
I believe that is irrelevant — if it is going to create situations which lead to assault and much worse, get rid of it.
Yes I have campaigned strongly for the Springbok emblem but that is an entirely separate debate in which the ANC themselves have sanctioned it. Here we are dealing with an in-your-face effrontery by those seeking to confront the government and other races.
All South Africans have a flag that stands loud and proud for us all and as such there is no need for the old one, it should be banned.
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69 Responses to “Ban the old South African flag”
Sorry, Traps. For 40 years that was the flag I and my generation grew up under. It was the flag under which South Africans of all colours fought in WW11 and Korea, and it was the flag the Afrikaners tried in vain to oust after 31 May 1961. That flag also stood for all that was good in SA, which was, believe it or not, a lot. You can try to ban history, but you cannot erase it. South Africa has a new flag - good. Don’t pretend that the old one didn’t exist. And your claim to believing in freedom of speech is flawed by your “except fors”. So we can offend little old ladies, because they won’t burn down a building or three
Pity it has to be banned to get an intransigent sector of South African folk to behave with sensitivity and decency. So much better if they would independently desist from displaying the old flag publically out of a sense of patriotism, loyalty to RSA and regard for the feelings of fellow countrymen. It’s just about maturity and breeding really. Whether they choose to display it in their own homes is their business so why not be happy with that? It’s just self centred indulgence, really, from people who have not one ounce of genuine interest in moving the country forward particularly politically and socially - it’s simply unethical,incredibly boorish and very inflamatory.
this is where i miss living in the states, as banning the flag would have the aclu in court defending people’s rights to be offensive.
is asking the offended party to be the bigger person and walk away too much to ask for?
i have flags from every country in which i have lived either here or in storage at my father’s house. i also have them in the order in which i have lived in such countries. this means that i have all three zimbabwean flags, a cape province flag as well as the old south african flag [among others]. various south africans and zimbabweans have asked me why i have these flags and i say “i lived in zim and south africa from 1977 to 1980; these were the flags in effect then.” that is that.
banning the flag isn’t going to make the sentiment go away; in fact, you’re quite likely to end up with a german/austrian type situation, which, in my opinion, is worse.
but our new flag looks like a knock off of the Zimbabwean flag… while our anthem sounds like the Zambian anthem…
the old flag is primarily the Prinzen Flag which was planted on south african soil by Jan Van Riebeck himself… and the old anthem is a rousing call to national patriotism…
so we dumped half the old anthem and reworked God Bless Africa to fit… and then swopped the prinzen flag (orange white and blue) for the dutch flag (red white and blue) and added that to the ANC / Jamaican flag of black, gold and green in a zimbabwean design…
so our new flag and anthem are of a dutch colony / self governing territory that is run by the ANC / Africa Uhuru Liberation Movement…
Yah, go right ahead, wipe out history: Jan Van Riebeeck was as mythical as King Arthur and Robin Hood. The great trek never happened. You know, why wait for future historians to “revise” history, heck, let’s start right now…BAN IT?! Trapido, even you have sunk to new low depths here. But I suppose you need to make up for the Bull killing article. A bit of the old appeasement going on here perhaps?
If you refer to the little incident with the police commissioner in the Transnet office, you are over-reacting. She did not wave the flag. She simply had it on her desk.
Ever seen a public office? Some have plastic roses, other some knitted (by Granny) thing on their desk. Anything a little sentimental and colourful goes to create a homy feeling doing the dull repetitive work to keep the public systems going.
It is a well known fact that the old tannies in the public service keep the systems going.
Please, allow them their little connection with the past. Some of them might have lost dear ones in the then justified struggle.
The old SA flag is part of history. You cannot wipe out history, bad as it may have been. The Union Jack has flown from ships conquering the seven seas and from standards borne in many battles. Tattered remains found a place of honour in venerable old buildings. Many a British soldier has died with his breaking eyes fixed on the flag. So did the many thousands of black men and women carted off from their homeland to work as slaves in Europe and America. Their misery beneath this flag of the British Empire defies description. Does anyone now advocate to ban the UJ? Hardly: it still flies over the killing fields in the world: this is a piece of England! The swastika was not really a flag but an occult emblem of shame, oppression and murder. Its black colour on a red background belied its purpose. The ‘old’ SA flag carried its own history in its composition of colours and little flags, including the UJ. It did not stand for oppression although under it oppression took place in the same way as it did under the UJ. It is no longer the official flag but some people savour the memory. Under it SA became the rainbow nation before it became the old flag. To ban it means to deny history bad as it may have been. Banning was the old regime’s way of oppression. Do we really want this?
(2)And while we are banning things lest they offend our fellow countrymen let us start with the Kruger Rand, the Springbok emblem and a host of other things which remind of the bad old days. Lets tear down all those statues of boer helde and change the names of towns, streets and anything remotely remeniscent of the old apartheid days. It will cost a pretty penny, but hey, surely there is enough money when it comes wipe out the past. Better to live in poverty in Xhosa street than to live in poverty in Verwoerd street. Banning is an instrument of weak government and a form of oppression and should have no place in a democracy. Which is all about freedom of speech, expression, religion. When banning starts you can no longer say: I am living in a free country. And a free country is what people are prepared to die for.
I don’t agree. Were you for the banning of minarets in Switszerland? Surely if the majority are offended…
And no, I don’t agree with the banning of swastikas either. Banning symbols lends undue credence to people who adopt them as banners of solidarity under oppression, or whatever they claim. Nothing increases the danger of symbol more than banning it: “we’re obviously right as our enemies can’t even face seeing us.”
While I do not believe in banning, I would say that displaying the old flag could quite easily become “inciting violence” or “causing public disturbance” or anything along those lines. Taking the softer, more constitutional approach, prevents the state from acquiring powers to ban other symbols, like opposition party symbols etc.
I believe strongly in freedom of speech and expression, even if I find what the other person says repulsive. This freedom is a fundamental, natural human right. Futhermore, it is one of the major distinctions between free societies and tyrranical ones. Thus, I cannot agree with banning symbols that many or most find repulsive, under any circumstance.
That said, this particular issue is more of a moral one than a legal one. Banning something does not change hearts; it merely hardens them. Likewise, we can promote and encourage maturity and tact, but we cannot legally enforce it. The real question here is how does one go about changing the hearts of these people who wave the old flag around - because it is merely an outward expression of what they believe and feel on the inside. I’m sure that banning the flag will not change these peoples’ hearts and minds.
…
I know you have a legal background, Michael, but passing laws is not always the answer to our problems.
ban freedom of expression? parading the old flag is practising freedom of expression. if it has to be banned, then die stem should be removed from the ‘national’ anthem (which also discriminate against Venda’s and Shangaans).
all the names and surnames associated with apartheid like the krugers and van der ‘what what’ should als be banned as they are equally offensive.
That flag is part of our history, and all it stood for, good and bad, just as the current flag stands for our present, both god and bad.
To simply “ban” it would create a market for it - remember prohibition?
Yeah, the old SA was hell for many people, not just the blacks. My family were part of the “arm blankes” and that flag to them was a symbol of hope, of freedom from tyranny under the British flag. It’s part of Afrikaner heritage, of which only a very tiny minority were supporters of Apartheid (yeah yeah, I know how this sounds – go look up the causes of why Jan Smuts lost that infamous election).
In my house, Jan Smuts and Madiba used to hang side by side framed in sepia-toned splendour, each adorned by their respective Flags (Now novelty of political statements has passed and now they are stored in a closet). They optimise everything what was RIGHT in their eras. But you can just as easily have been photos of Verwoerd and Juliarse, who in my opinion, are the apotheosis of what is WRONG with the eras.
Let the flag be. Have issues with the assholes who use it to provoke, but the oranje-blanje-blou itself is harmless. It’s the person waving it and what connotations they attach to it that is the problem, not the flag itself.
Do you ban taxis because they drive like malicious idiots, or do you re-educate the drivers?
I agree, but unfortunately I read in beeld, dieburger, nuus24 about the opinions of Afrikaners, and it still shocks me to read that my culture are still living in the past, saying things like:”They’ll wave that flag, because in those days there was a rule of law..blah blah blah.” my first instinct was: Uhm…for some…other’s were discriminated against and did not have this “rule of law” the afrikaners so fondly remember.
Afrikaners are only perpetuating the suffering of their own culture and people, by still clinging on the bits and pieces of ideals htat worked FOR them in a system that couldn’t and shouldn’t work.
The quicker they get rid of the US and THEM mentality the sooner our children and our children’s children will be able to live in harmony in a country that’s OURS!!!
Like your blind admiration of Thabo Mbeki, your call for the banning of the old SA flag again shows poor judgement and a basic lack of respect for our freedom of expression, enshrined in our constitution.
This topic was excellently covered long ago by Kaya Dlanga http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/khayadlanga/2009/06/01/old-south-african-flag-must-be-banned/ , and again I’d like to reiterate that we can gain more by NOT banning it. Every time we see that flag publicly displayed we should use it as an opportunity to protest against its use. In this way we can use it as a way teach the younger generation the significance of civil protest and the importance of freedom of speech. In time everyone will understand the disgrace and shame associated with the old flag. Its a history lesson in itself.
Similarly, to the way the Confederate flag is treated in the US - its not banned outright but stirs up controversy every time its displayed and shines the light on the continuing prejudices in certain parts of the US. Now opponents of the flag see it as as a symbol of racism, white supremacy and slavery while proponents claim that it merely represents a symbol of southern culture and history.
Just read other comments in Beeld, and I am sitting here at my desk upset, so frustrated and (excuse my french) fucking pissed off at my fellow afrikaners I can harldy contain my anger.
These people ,that call themselves christian as well, are so narrow minded, I am literally shaking with anger, because I know that there is nothing I can say or do to change their views!!
Do they not see that the only thing they will achieve is to pass on their backward views to their children and thus perpetuating the fear and hatred!!
I would like to think there are so many many more positive symbols of Afrikaner heritage out there that I refuse to see waving the old flag as anything but what it is- cynical backwards yearning for an oppressive past.
Siyabonga Ntshingila on December 11th, 2009 at 8:25 am
I find more disturbing the group that cling to the old flag. It is a symbol as you rightly describe, so are these individuals then nostalgically looking back at that time? Missing it perhaps?
Legality aside, as a person of colour, it’s very unnerving and wholly disappointing.
I have no feelings for the old ‘ranje-blanje-blou but from having lived under their laws I know that a good way to make something popular is to ban it. Rather let the government fight crime, corruption and other nasties so effectively that its popularity simply dies a natural death.
Those flag wavers are nuts who crave attention, the cure is to ignore them as idiots that they are. Publicity is their oxygen, take it away and they wither and die.
Even your sane and sensible article gives them some publicity, so don’t.
Two thoughts here. The right of freedom of expression even if displayed by a minority group or, whether the banning of the flag is justifiable as seen in the context of other symbols of oppression.
Catch 22 here. Ban it, is a regressive step in terms of true democracy. Allow it, and this will negatively feed the political debate.
In the SA context some Afrikaners are still smarting from the colonial suppression by the British and a “rooinek” is still viewed with suspicion in many quarters. Yet for all we have all been living in a state of harmony for over a century with a few hiccups now and again. As a youth I can remember many an altercation surrounding the divisions between the “souties” and the “rock spiders”. However, this did not spill over into the high political arena as is the case of the “old flag”.
Me? I say tolerance is the key factor, although when I see the public displaying of the flag I cringe with embarrassment. I also cringe with embarrassment when I listen to the half assed skewed statements made by some of the prominent politicians as well.
While waving the old flag may be in poor taste and inconsiderate, banning it would most definitely infringe on freedom of speech and really would be the thin edge of the wedge. Start with banning the flag; why stop there? The temptation would be to go right back to where we came from pre ’94. Remember how it was then? Immoral and subversive literature and music? Ban it. (Keep the Playboys hidden away, boys!) Communists and liberals? Ban them .
Let’s not go there and rather use social opprobrium to discourage exposure of the old flag
Mmm .. I think you risk creating martyrs with this approach. Banning the old flag will almost certainly encourage those who still revere it to display the thing, in a kind of purile act of pure tribalism, whenever they feel they can cause trouble &/or declare their loyalty to the past. Rather continue to encourage positive good, sensible and sensitive behaviour all round. More can be achieved that way; the law can be a very blunt instrument and I have a strong feeling that in this type of instance, it is akin to the use of corporal punishment in the moral and political satisfaction it brings to those who enact it or enforce it, but for those at the rough end it just makes them feel bullied.
I was very suprised when reading the comments by the 2 scholars that the old SA flag is protected under the freedom of speech act. How this was permitted is beyond me but more often than before, its such acts that were passed without public debate/inputs.
I forsee that, after that educated insight, their (old SA flags) sales are going to sore. They are going to be displayed on front lawns & hung from vehicles, thus opening a whole new set of problems.
My grandfather had the Republiek Flag hanging on his wall until he
died. He gave his leg for that flag and would have lost his other one two if anyone dared remove it.
He spat on the new Union flag which I grew up with and so much history therein.
Very many brave, patriotic men died serving that flag. You can ban it, burn - do what you wish.
Like the flag of Southern USA is will burn in the hearts of those who saluted it proudly.
The new flag ? You can take a horse to water but not make it drink.
Oh come Traps. I respect the fact that you like to kiss up to the ANC but sometimes you can be unreasonable.
You know full well that we have more serious problems to attend too than a bloody flag. Why is it that when something minor happens concerning whites it is used to divert attention away from the reality that is SA?
If anything if the flag waving was ignored the results would be far better. The fact that such a fuss is made causes a rise in tension.
In place of the upset two or three, making it a national affair blows it out of proportion.
Come on get with people look and see the unecessary hardship and the many politically expedient decisions make for short term gain long term pain under the new Flag
The lies and general BS that this country has to put up with under this much loved flag.
To me the new flag represents loss of freedom of expression, death to thousands, uneduated people almost below that of the old Bantu education level, a governemnt service made up of people too scare to make a decision in case it conflicts with the party ideal.
Are those not more important than the few who deliberately wave the old flag?
Seeing you making an issue of nothing I may just purchase a few old SA flag T shirts for the hell of it. Just to show that I believe in freedom of expression.
Traps, The Nazi flag was the flag of an evil party and not a nation.
The Old South African Fag had a lot of proud moments and was served by a lot of proud and decent people. Until one evil party came to power, nobody complained about it. People who served under it, during War and Peace, have a right to continue to respect it. A sad slip on your behalf? or was it?
Maybe you didn’t mean it, but you imply that if something - like the Springbok emblem - is sanctioned by the ANC, then it’s okay. If something is not sanctioned by the ANC, then it’s not okay. Sorry, that’s just far too dictatorial for me. I have to live with the ANC flag, and a host of new names that vary from just plain stupid to downright offensive, and I still survive. I suggest that those who feel themselves incited by the old SA flag should seek psychological assistance.
A flag is a symbol of ones beliefs, heritage it should enthuse and propose nationalism to ones country.
Yes the old South African flag is a symbol of oppression for the majority of South African but then again what symbol of oppression can be seen in all the electric fences and high walls are they not also symbols of oppression.
Now no one is really experiencing freedom.
More people have died unnatural deaths under the colours of the ANC in 15 years than the whole of the apartheid era. This is fact as was stated and proven at the truth and reconciliation commission. Which flag is then the more oppressive?
When a husband or wife has an affair but remain together - that affair remains in the history of their relationship. When a beloved child is imprisoned for theft and then later released a reformed man - that imprisonment remains part of the history of that family. I doubt very much that the couple would want to have a photograph of the third party displayed in their home to keep them in mind of that part of their history. I doubt very much that the parents would display a photograph of that beloved child through the bars of his cell dressed in prison garb because it happens to be part of the family history. Some parts of history are unsavoury and very painful and whilst they cannot be whiped out or denied, most would chose not to have salt rubbed into the wounds on a daily basis………. our history is full of highs and lows none of which can be blotted out - but lets not engage in inflamatory actions - what could there possibly be to gain from them but chaos, anger and even violent reaction. If you love the old flag, put it up in your home - no one in the world will take issue with that.
That flag that you say offends other people is the flag I grew up under, it taught me some value, morals and pride as a person. And if the old flag offends other people then they should get over it. I do not like the ruling party emblem, because it represents a broken and crooked “democracy” without order and manners. Do you see me requesting to have it banned? No! because I know there are other people that value what the ruling party emblem originally meant to them, although I may not politically agree with them. So leave me and others to enjoy what we have left of our own history!
to say its part of history is factually correct, everything that has ever happenend is part of history, however since the pre 1994 history in this country is basically invalid (almost all of it is based on black and brown oppression, boers and English fighting about a country that is not even their’s etc.) and makes most south Africans wanna throw up and since we can choose what to surround ourselves with, i am suspicious as to why (white) people would want to have that flag around?…
you want to be called south african yet you have so little regard for you fellow black country poeple, one really must wonder…I would be inclined to view those who proudly display those old flags as settler’s still, holding onto some distant belief..certainly not South African!
Now lets be honest, the old flag is a symbol of the afrikaner….the afrikaner was the leader of the white repressive society…..Now your time is gone and your history is invalid and your history is invalid and we KNOW THAT…sure banning the flag wont change a thing, but those oppressors should not have the luxury of hidding behind ‘rights’ if all they intend to do with those rights is maintain separatist, discriminatory and supremacist ideas…
I say keep the flag, ban the people who display it…send them to the streets of Nyanga or khayelitsha township for a history lesson or two
I agree that the old South African flag represents our oppresive past for many South Africans (of various races), and that it is inappropriate to display this flag. Especially at big events. But I am not convinced that it should be banned. I think that this would only fuel the fire of those that hold so tightly on to this symbol. In a sense you would be giving life back to a dying animal. Rather, I think we should aim to change the mindsets of people, to make the minority of people who cling on to the old flag even smaller. I am sure that many people who assist on waving this flag do not fully appreciate or understand what it represents to many of their countrymen. The example you used of John Smit illustrates what is probably one of the best ways to get the message across - where respected sports men / women make it clear that such displays are not appreciated. Each one of us can also be ‘message bearers’ in our own spheres of influence. Of course, as my father used to tell me, “you can win some of them some of the time, but not all of them all of the time”, and there will always be those who knowingly continue in inconsiderate behaviour. On this issue (the old flag), I think South Africa has already come a considerable way in reducing this minority.
The Swastika is banned in South Africa and so should the old SA flag be banned. But how far does one take the banning of Apartheid symbols? Does one ban/remove monuments that reflect the Apartheid regime era?
Traps - I agree with you. The public displaying of the old flag is provocative to the majority of South Africans. If there are people who like that flag, they must display it in their own homes. Not publicly, at rugby matches or in their workplaces. That is if they want to keep that flag as a memoir. We must just remember that a decision was taken that South Africa will have a new flag. So there is not space for any other flag except our democratic one. Mpumelelo must understand the context in which the national anthem was developed. The idea was to unite our people, black and white and we needed to compromise to some extent. Therefore, we must teach our children this national anthem in order to forge a national identity across racial lines. But I also think that although we must erase the memory of the painful past, we cannot change everything and bury history. We must change some street and place names but we must be reasonable and preserve some old names for historical purposes. Equally, the minority (our fellow countrymen) must also come to the party and contribute positively in this nation building exercise. Their role cannot be that of complaining about all the wrongs and turn a blind eye to the positives about our country, which is their country too.
waived instead of waved? You, as a journo, lose all credibility with such a basic error and I have to wonder if as much thought went into your argument as your proofreading. Besides, the flag represents so much more than just apartheid, whereas the Swastika was the flag of just one political party. Inciting violence by waving the flag? How about singing “Bring me my machine gun” or “Professor Jansen must be killed”? Lame article with narrow-minded opinions which are not clearly thought through.
We are making a mountain out of molehill.Let us use the number of old-flag wavers as a barometer of progress or lack of it iro race relations.We might just do better than StatsSA. Send someone out there, count them every year they are waved at a rugby match.Use 2009 as baseline.We cannot do worse than the expensive reseach that some people do on race matters.To collectors i say as long as it makes you better at night.
I dont agree with banning the flag. Yes it can be inflammatory and yes it can be seen as a racist symbol. But aside from freedom of expression, this flag is part of our history, directly linked to current racist statements by our current government in a country still extremely divided by race. That part of our history over which the old flag presided is still the dominant period which shapes what we are today.
It reflects a large part of my life, and reflects a part of our countries history. Why try and bury part of our history when we can learn from it? Seeing it as a symbol of how far we have come is far more healthy than ignoring part of the path, how will we judge whether we have progressed?
What a stupid suggestion. You struck me a more intelegent than what this article appears to be.
History is what makes this country of ours great. These symbols must remind us of how far we have come, and how much work still lies ahead of us.
By using the banning argument we should then also consider banning the Union Jack, SACP and ANC flags. My family lost everything they had when the English applied the scorched earth policy in the Anglo-Boer war. My wife’s mother was raped and her family murdered by the Russian Communists after WWII and my granfather was injured when the ANC bombed Airforce HQ in the early 80’s.
My reasoning will appear stupid to most, probably as stupid as what your views appear to be.
The wankers that wave the old flag in the face of almost universal revulsion are showing themselves to be just that - wankers.
We, the people, can work that all by ourselves. Please stop thinking for us. A lot of very brave, very principled people, died to create a country where the freedom of expression was important.
Seems like you would have fit right in with the old lot - they liked banning things too.
I’m white and Afrikaans, and every time I see that flag (the old one, btw) I feel slightly ill. Perhaps it’s useful, if for no other reason than what it reminds us of.
As to banning it: Free speech means FREE, not free as long as it offends nobody. Free speech is necessary ESPECIALLY when most of us disagree with what’s being said.
We forgot the value of free speech once, which is what the old flag reminds us of. Why make the same mistake again?
Do you pledge allegiance to Kruger rands? Do you pledge allegiance to the Springbok emblem? No. So there’s no need to ban those. Don’t be stupid now.
The old South African flag reminds me of what I had to go through in this country to get where I am. It reminds me of pass laws and white cops setting dogs on my mother. I’m sure those feelings are foreign to you because you have never had to be called a k****r by someone half your age. Those were the good old days, you say. Maybe for you, but not for the majority of South Africans.
So, for the benefit of you and a few of your Jan van Riebeck folks, we should not ban the flag. Let’s rather piss on the emotions of the people who were wronged for 350 years and still managed to forgive. They are black anyway. Isn’t that what you really wanted to say?
Living in Spain one sees the same kind of push to eliminate all traces of Franco and I’m not convinced that it’s right. Certainly many Spaniards suffered horribly under his regime, but it doesn’t do anyone any harm to recall that he managed to hold onto power there for so long. The pacto de olvido has been a bit of a mixed blessing.
I was going to wholeheartedly agree with you Traps, but after reading the above replies I have no alternative but to admit that there is a place in our society for the old flag. History cannot and should not be erased because it was offensive. The reasonable and acceptable place for it needs to be debated. I am a part time biker (without a club) and go to many rallies, and I have been highly upset at the blatant display of the old flag at these events, so much so that I have voiced my objection to the old flag to a number of stallholders selling it. To them and those who choose to wear it on their biker apparel I apologise, and now realise that it is your choice, and so long as you do not display racial hatred I fully accept it’s display.
@ Rose Morrow I am sorry but you have it completely wrong. You should be well informed enough to know that criminality, being a criminal and imprisonment in SA is seen as badge of honor by those who live in the townships. It is even part of the ANC credential worthiness.
Under the new flag corruption and crimnality go hand in hand.
@ Black187 Consider that you are still called a k****r although the word is not actually said to your face. To top that you are called many offensive things by your own race. What then is the difference?
I too was biten by a police dog set on me by a policemen at a protest. I never bleat about it. I still have the scars to prove it too. So please do not think you or your mother are alone in this world.
You think banning a word helps. You cannot ban what people think of you. You earn your place in this world.
Do not use a word or action as your excuse to hold back or ban something else because of your racist tendencies.
For God’s sake! It’s now no more than a piece of threadbare ruddy material. Sure, flashing it is in bad taste, but it’s certainly not the only bad taste around and the people waving it are not the only jerks around. I’m sure that any sensible black person is big enough to get that many of us disapprove. Why rile up the troops?
But I’ll do a deal with you — you get Malema banned and I’ll sign up to ban the old flag.
Hugh Robinson: be warned, stay out of my way! I quite like your line of thought and could be tempted to lock you up and never let you go.
None of us will survive if we can’t cultivate a sense of humour and it’s a lot more difficult to do that with no food in your home. What’s really important in this world?
Why all the furore, why all the fuss? The old flag is going to be banned in due course, along with everything else remotely associated with South Africa’s past. This is the agenda of the A.N.C. Simply being white will soon fit the criteria for banishment, as well. It’s written in the books.
@MLH LOL Only if you are female, sexy, and be being willing to serve me with slave like attention otherwise I am happy with the wife and life I got. LOL
I think Al had the right idea when he wrote
‘Rather let the government fight crime, corruption and other nasties so effectively that its popularity simply dies a natural death.’
Because thats the main reason people cling to the old flag. They felt safe and secure when that flag flew over the Union Buildings, and not because they feel the need to snub the ANC government. The crime stats were not exploding, you could walk around after dark without fear. If you were white, of course -the whole thing is very subjective.
If something is not illegal, is it OK for a law abiding citizen to go about his business with such? (“Trotting it out”)
It damn well better be if one hopes to live within a state where rule of law prevails.
Attempting to enforce political correctness is fascist.
The purpose of law is to uphold the provisions of the constitution, not to pander to the moral sensibilities of the individual who might be ‘offended’, even when personal views of such an individual purports to be those of ‘the majority’
The Nazi party enjoyed support of the majority when deciding that Jewish participation in society was politically incorrect.
A veiled warning that law abiding citizens should expect violence against their person if they should engage in activity which some don’t like and might be ‘offended’ by comes dangerously close to threat and intimidation.
If I choose to bear the ‘old flag’ upon my person, who are others to decide on my behalf that it constitutes an ‘expression’ of anything, more so the that I am ‘expressing’ something they deem to be going on in my head which they don’t like?
Who is anyone to decide in any case what ‘expression’ must be upheld or must be prohibited on the basis of personal prejudices and sensibilities?
Such rights do not flow from the state in the first place, it is not theirs to grant or deny.
Learn from the Americans! In their devastating Civil War in the late 19th century the Southern States flew their Confededate flag while the Northern States had a flag which closely resembles todays’ US flag. The North had finally won the war and the United States has now a single flag well-known over the world. Yet in many Southern states the old Confederate flag is still being displayed, both in private homes and also in public, not as a matter of defiance or provocation, but as a historical relic with an undoubted importance in the nation’s collective spirit. No one feels offended by seeing it, even though the Civil War was probably the biggest and bloodiest conflict, where brother bitterly fought brother and two different cultures yet of the same national origin tragically clashed with more casualties than in the World Wars.
Ian Shaw - I have met many Americans who despise the Confederate Flag as a symbol of of a “state” that believed in racial superority and slavery.
In SA there were (are?) many verkramptes who hated the little Union Jack in the middle of the old flag.
Black people have no great wish to return to the times when that flag was flown.
Worldwide, a piece of multi coloured cloth has the power to stir up emotions, both postiive and negative.
Sorry to enlighten you,but the old flag represented a minority,who ruled the country,and that without the majority having a say about governing the country The Union of South Africa was established in 1910 and since then until 1994 we had two flags which still did not represent the majority,as I have stated they had no say in government.Therefore when in 1994 their was a general election which was the very first election that was formed representing democracy,in which every South African voted for a new government the ANC,So the new flag is the flag of all South Africans irrespective of creed or colour or political mindset.Thus the old flag that reoresented a minority has no place in the new and democratic South Africa
Hugh Robinson - Wow! Those sound like bitter, cynical comments - 48,000,000 people in South Africa - hypothetically speaking, if a million or even two million are, in your opinion, “badies” - there are still at least forty six million who fall into the “goody” category! Two million is a lot of people - almost the size of the Namibian population - it is most unlikely we have that many criminals or potential criminals anyway - so come on - get some perspective… To get back to the point, we simply do not photograph nasty happenings in our homes or within the family and proudly put them up on our walls “lest we forget”! I’ve seen millions of wedding photos displayed and none as the couple emerged from the divorce courts. We naturally tend to take photos of the good times and display them. Bad history is always there, it just doesn’t have to be rubbed in everyone’s face all the time. Waving the old flag at a rugby game is meaningless anyway because the team are playing under the new flag, in the new rugby jersey and singing (with great gusto I might add) the new National Anthem. The old flag has no meaning except to inflame people who were greatly hurt and stripped of their dignity under it.
Interesting first sentence: they ‘waived’ the flag? Sounds like the decision had already been made. Or did they wave the flag? Or is that the point - that we should waive the waving of the old South African flag?
Hugh Robinson: How DISGUSTING of you to say that the ANC applaud criminality and that they enjoyed being in prison. It is precisely because of former ‘prisoners’ like Nelson Mandela that you are able to parttake in these discussions here on this blog- he was not a CRIMINAL but a freedom fighter- That is why he and many others (Steve Biko, Walter Sisulu etc) were imprisoned.
Have you lived in a township that you can say with confidence that being a criminal is seen as something honorable? It seems that stupid and ignorant opinion was arrived at by reading newspapers and watching TV documentaries made by people who know nothing about township life.
For the past four years I have worked for an NGO in a township (Khayelitsha) and I can tell you that the one thing that MOST (if not all) township dwellwers (men and women) see as a “bagde of honor” is having a JOB!
I think we are all reasonably intelligent people so we probably got what Traps was meaning when he inadvertantly wrote “waived” instead of “waved” - even he is human and frail just like the rest of us……..
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Sorry, Traps. For 40 years that was the flag I and my generation grew up under. It was the flag under which South Africans of all colours fought in WW11 and Korea, and it was the flag the Afrikaners tried in vain to oust after 31 May 1961. That flag also stood for all that was good in SA, which was, believe it or not, a lot. You can try to ban history, but you cannot erase it. South Africa has a new flag - good. Don’t pretend that the old one didn’t exist. And your claim to believing in freedom of speech is flawed by your “except fors”. So we can offend little old ladies, because they won’t burn down a building or three
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