When Springbok captain John Smit explained to those who had waived the old flags in the faces of him and his team that the players were aware of the fact that they were playing for all South Africans not just a minority, he captured right there the essence of the debate.
The old South African flag represents a minority while the new an entire country.
Though some are going to great lengths to point out that the old flag has not been banned and that waving it is not illegal they are missing the point. It is offensive to the vast majority of the people of this country because it was one of the primary symbols of apartheid. It stood for whites only, passbooks and any number of other evils that flowed from that system.
In essence by waving it you are throwing that in the faces of your countrymen and women and rejoicing over a disgraceful period in our history.
Yet even if it were only offensive to a minority would that make it any better?
How would Jews and other people feel, if for example, people started waving swastikas and Nazi flags around?
Does the fact that the law may not ban something highly offensive make it alright to trot it out?
Of course the big argument being put forward is that it constitutes freedom of speech and expression. People should be allowed to do and say things that are within the law no matter how offensive we may find that.
I am a great advocate of just that proposition.
However we must have regard to the fact that while the act itself is legal the consequences may well not be. By waving a red flag in front of a bull (get it … flags and bulls — after the debates this week) you are inciting violence.
Of course this will raise the question of who is inciting the violence; the flag waver or the party who reacts to its legal (and immoral) display?
I believe that is irrelevant — if it is going to create situations which lead to assault and much worse, get rid of it.
Yes I have campaigned strongly for the Springbok emblem but that is an entirely separate debate in which the ANC themselves have sanctioned it. Here we are dealing with an in-your-face effrontery by those seeking to confront the government and other races.
All South Africans have a flag that stands loud and proud for us all and as such there is no need for the old one, it should be banned.
Well said Black 187, i couldn’t have said it better myself!
@ Rose Morrow I am sorry but you have it completely wrong. You should be well informed enough to know that criminality, being a criminal and imprisonment in SA is seen as badge of honor by those who live in the townships. It is even part of the ANC credential worthiness.
Under the new flag corruption and crimnality go hand in hand.
@ Black187 Consider that you are still called a k****r although the word is not actually said to your face. To top that you are called many offensive things by your own race. What then is the difference?
I too was biten by a police dog set on me by a policemen at a protest. I never bleat about it. I still have the scars to prove it too. So please do not think you or your mother are alone in this world.
You think banning a word helps. You cannot ban what people think of you. You earn your place in this world.
Do not use a word or action as your excuse to hold back or ban something else because of your racist tendencies.
Trapido, get a life!
For God’s sake! It’s now no more than a piece of threadbare ruddy material. Sure, flashing it is in bad taste, but it’s certainly not the only bad taste around and the people waving it are not the only jerks around. I’m sure that any sensible black person is big enough to get that many of us disapprove. Why rile up the troops?
But I’ll do a deal with you — you get Malema banned and I’ll sign up to ban the old flag.
Hugh Robinson: be warned, stay out of my way! I quite like your line of thought and could be tempted to lock you up and never let you go.
None of us will survive if we can’t cultivate a sense of humour and it’s a lot more difficult to do that with no food in your home. What’s really important in this world?
Why all the furore, why all the fuss? The old flag is going to be banned in due course, along with everything else remotely associated with South Africa’s past. This is the agenda of the A.N.C. Simply being white will soon fit the criteria for banishment, as well. It’s written in the books.
@MLH LOL Only if you are female, sexy, and be being willing to serve me with slave like attention otherwise I am happy with the wife and life I got. LOL
I think Al had the right idea when he wrote
‘Rather let the government fight crime, corruption and other nasties so effectively that its popularity simply dies a natural death.’
Because thats the main reason people cling to the old flag. They felt safe and secure when that flag flew over the Union Buildings, and not because they feel the need to snub the ANC government. The crime stats were not exploding, you could walk around after dark without fear. If you were white, of course -the whole thing is very subjective.
Traps,
If something is not illegal, is it OK for a law abiding citizen to go about his business with such? (“Trotting it out”)
It damn well better be if one hopes to live within a state where rule of law prevails.
Attempting to enforce political correctness is fascist.
The purpose of law is to uphold the provisions of the constitution, not to pander to the moral sensibilities of the individual who might be ‘offended’, even when personal views of such an individual purports to be those of ‘the majority’
The Nazi party enjoyed support of the majority when deciding that Jewish participation in society was politically incorrect.
A veiled warning that law abiding citizens should expect violence against their person if they should engage in activity which some don’t like and might be ‘offended’ by comes dangerously close to threat and intimidation.
If I choose to bear the ‘old flag’ upon my person, who are others to decide on my behalf that it constitutes an ‘expression’ of anything, more so the that I am ‘expressing’ something they deem to be going on in my head which they don’t like?
Who is anyone to decide in any case what ‘expression’ must be upheld or must be prohibited on the basis of personal prejudices and sensibilities?
Such rights do not flow from the state in the first place, it is not theirs to grant or deny.
Agreed 100%
The old flag flies legally over the Castle in Cape Town
Learn from the Americans! In their devastating Civil War in the late 19th century the Southern States flew their Confededate flag while the Northern States had a flag which closely resembles todays’ US flag. The North had finally won the war and the United States has now a single flag well-known over the world. Yet in many Southern states the old Confederate flag is still being displayed, both in private homes and also in public, not as a matter of defiance or provocation, but as a historical relic with an undoubted importance in the nation’s collective spirit. No one feels offended by seeing it, even though the Civil War was probably the biggest and bloodiest conflict, where brother bitterly fought brother and two different cultures yet of the same national origin tragically clashed with more casualties than in the World Wars.
Ian Shaw – I have met many Americans who despise the Confederate Flag as a symbol of of a “state” that believed in racial superority and slavery.
In SA there were (are?) many verkramptes who hated the little Union Jack in the middle of the old flag.
Black people have no great wish to return to the times when that flag was flown.
Worldwide, a piece of multi coloured cloth has the power to stir up emotions, both postiive and negative.
Sorry to enlighten you,but the old flag represented a minority,who ruled the country,and that without the majority having a say about governing the country The Union of South Africa was established in 1910 and since then until 1994 we had two flags which still did not represent the majority,as I have stated they had no say in government.Therefore when in 1994 their was a general election which was the very first election that was formed representing democracy,in which every South African voted for a new government the ANC,So the new flag is the flag of all South Africans irrespective of creed or colour or political mindset.Thus the old flag that reoresented a minority has no place in the new and democratic South Africa
actually, ian shaw, depending on where you are, it is entirely out of provocation.
but, for the most part, it’s covered under the first amendment, so it’s tolerated anyway, and the people flying them are dismissed as dumb rednecks.
Well said Hugh – couldn’t agree with you more.
Hugh Robinson – Wow! Those sound like bitter, cynical comments – 48,000,000 people in South Africa – hypothetically speaking, if a million or even two million are, in your opinion, “badies” – there are still at least forty six million who fall into the “goody” category! Two million is a lot of people – almost the size of the Namibian population – it is most unlikely we have that many criminals or potential criminals anyway – so come on – get some perspective… To get back to the point, we simply do not photograph nasty happenings in our homes or within the family and proudly put them up on our walls “lest we forget”! I’ve seen millions of wedding photos displayed and none as the couple emerged from the divorce courts. We naturally tend to take photos of the good times and display them. Bad history is always there, it just doesn’t have to be rubbed in everyone’s face all the time. Waving the old flag at a rugby game is meaningless anyway because the team are playing under the new flag, in the new rugby jersey and singing (with great gusto I might add) the new National Anthem. The old flag has no meaning except to inflame people who were greatly hurt and stripped of their dignity under it.
Interesting first sentence: they ‘waived’ the flag? Sounds like the decision had already been made. Or did they wave the flag? Or is that the point – that we should waive the waving of the old South African flag?
Hugh Robinson: How DISGUSTING of you to say that the ANC applaud criminality and that they enjoyed being in prison. It is precisely because of former ‘prisoners’ like Nelson Mandela that you are able to parttake in these discussions here on this blog- he was not a CRIMINAL but a freedom fighter- That is why he and many others (Steve Biko, Walter Sisulu etc) were imprisoned.
Have you lived in a township that you can say with confidence that being a criminal is seen as something honorable? It seems that stupid and ignorant opinion was arrived at by reading newspapers and watching TV documentaries made by people who know nothing about township life.
For the past four years I have worked for an NGO in a township (Khayelitsha) and I can tell you that the one thing that MOST (if not all) township dwellwers (men and women) see as a “bagde of honor” is having a JOB!
I think we are all reasonably intelligent people so we probably got what Traps was meaning when he inadvertantly wrote “waived” instead of “waved” – even he is human and frail just like the rest of us……..
For a legal person, “waive” must be a more familiar concept then “wave”