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	<title>Comments on: Zuma must be supported in his accord for dictators</title>
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	<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2009/06/14/zuma-must-be-supported-in-his-continental-accord-for-dictators/</link>
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		<title>By: Denis G</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2009/06/14/zuma-must-be-supported-in-his-continental-accord-for-dictators/comment-page-2/#comment-85757</link>
		<dc:creator>Denis G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:29:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2009/06/14/zuma-must-be-supported-in-his-continental-accord-for-dictators/#comment-85757</guid>
		<description>The majority of opinions expressed point out that complete immunity would set a bad precedence and encourage would be dictators to be thus with impunity. Blanket amnesty to all is a hard sell, rather take each case individually and use the circumstances of each case to encourage retirement of the dictators-and grant some form of immunity where meritable. Mugabe was offered a chance of immunity to retire and be granted immunity as a father figure-he refused to take it-why? Because a dictatorship involves a whole bunch of people and security apparatus and hangers on who benefit from it. An option would be crafting an all encompassing exit deal with all and sundry involved, which is something boardering on impossible. The real power lies in the peers of the dictators-regional leaders who like someone said, need to have the balls to hold a mirror in the dictators&#039; faces and withdraw all diplomatic support. For as long as islands of support still remain from other leaders, dictators will still act with impunity. That coupled with Dave F&#039;s suggestion can work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The majority of opinions expressed point out that complete immunity would set a bad precedence and encourage would be dictators to be thus with impunity. Blanket amnesty to all is a hard sell, rather take each case individually and use the circumstances of each case to encourage retirement of the dictators-and grant some form of immunity where meritable. Mugabe was offered a chance of immunity to retire and be granted immunity as a father figure-he refused to take it-why? Because a dictatorship involves a whole bunch of people and security apparatus and hangers on who benefit from it. An option would be crafting an all encompassing exit deal with all and sundry involved, which is something boardering on impossible. The real power lies in the peers of the dictators-regional leaders who like someone said, need to have the balls to hold a mirror in the dictators&#8217; faces and withdraw all diplomatic support. For as long as islands of support still remain from other leaders, dictators will still act with impunity. That coupled with Dave F&#8217;s suggestion can work.</p>
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		<title>By: Kalisa</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2009/06/14/zuma-must-be-supported-in-his-continental-accord-for-dictators/comment-page-2/#comment-85692</link>
		<dc:creator>Kalisa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 14:31:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Zuma was not talking about Zimbabwe in particular. He was talking directly to the dictator sitting in front of him. That dictator is Paul Kagame who has more blood on his hands than Hitler. So, he wanted to see if Kagame understands that democracy must take its course. Knowing Kagame&#039;s intelligence or lack thereof, this all probably went over his head. Kagame is a bigger dictator than Mugabe. He has been in power for 15 years and freedom of speech and press is better in Zimbabwe than it is in Rwanda.

Dictators espectially brutal ones, whether friendly to the West or not should understand that people will rise up and stand up to all of them like every continent. Zuma should support those efforts like he did in Burundi and tell Kagame and all other African dictators that their days to face justice are coming.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zuma was not talking about Zimbabwe in particular. He was talking directly to the dictator sitting in front of him. That dictator is Paul Kagame who has more blood on his hands than Hitler. So, he wanted to see if Kagame understands that democracy must take its course. Knowing Kagame&#8217;s intelligence or lack thereof, this all probably went over his head. Kagame is a bigger dictator than Mugabe. He has been in power for 15 years and freedom of speech and press is better in Zimbabwe than it is in Rwanda.</p>
<p>Dictators espectially brutal ones, whether friendly to the West or not should understand that people will rise up and stand up to all of them like every continent. Zuma should support those efforts like he did in Burundi and tell Kagame and all other African dictators that their days to face justice are coming.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Whelan</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2009/06/14/zuma-must-be-supported-in-his-continental-accord-for-dictators/comment-page-2/#comment-85662</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Whelan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 09:58:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2009/06/14/zuma-must-be-supported-in-his-continental-accord-for-dictators/#comment-85662</guid>
		<description>Rose/Anton

Agreed, both - especially that &#039;the people themselves must be convinced of the efficacy of democracy.&#039; 

Achieving democracy is not a top down, but a bottom up process. Govts. do not and cannot make people &#039;free&#039; - they are at best only instruments towards it. &#039;Democracy&#039; has to be exacted - if not actually wrenched - from rulers.

There is no mystery about &#039;African democracy&#039; or the lack of it. It is that society in Africa is not democratic at this period. Leaders cannot run ahead of that fact even if they wanted to - and mostly leaders are quite happy to leave things where they are until it blows up in their faces, as it did eventually for friend Mugabe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rose/Anton</p>
<p>Agreed, both &#8211; especially that &#8216;the people themselves must be convinced of the efficacy of democracy.&#8217; </p>
<p>Achieving democracy is not a top down, but a bottom up process. Govts. do not and cannot make people &#8216;free&#8217; &#8211; they are at best only instruments towards it. &#8216;Democracy&#8217; has to be exacted &#8211; if not actually wrenched &#8211; from rulers.</p>
<p>There is no mystery about &#8216;African democracy&#8217; or the lack of it. It is that society in Africa is not democratic at this period. Leaders cannot run ahead of that fact even if they wanted to &#8211; and mostly leaders are quite happy to leave things where they are until it blows up in their faces, as it did eventually for friend Mugabe.</p>
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		<title>By: anton kleinschmidt</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2009/06/14/zuma-must-be-supported-in-his-continental-accord-for-dictators/comment-page-2/#comment-85643</link>
		<dc:creator>anton kleinschmidt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 06:31:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2009/06/14/zuma-must-be-supported-in-his-continental-accord-for-dictators/#comment-85643</guid>
		<description>@ Paul Whelan.....in other words this is not about letting brutal dictators off the hook, it is about letting spineless african leaders off the hook.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Paul Whelan&#8230;..in other words this is not about letting brutal dictators off the hook, it is about letting spineless african leaders off the hook.</p>
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		<title>By: Faith</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2009/06/14/zuma-must-be-supported-in-his-continental-accord-for-dictators/comment-page-2/#comment-85617</link>
		<dc:creator>Faith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 16:44:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Yeah, now the impressionists and the opportunists will come out and show favour for the new regime and its expressed views of life and law... JZ has always had a different way of thinking. I wait by the borderline and await the next &#039;pardon&#039; scheme, and then I will make my comment - afterall, dont we all have a bit of dictatorship in us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, now the impressionists and the opportunists will come out and show favour for the new regime and its expressed views of life and law&#8230; JZ has always had a different way of thinking. I wait by the borderline and await the next &#8216;pardon&#8217; scheme, and then I will make my comment &#8211; afterall, dont we all have a bit of dictatorship in us.</p>
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		<title>By: Rose Morrow</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2009/06/14/zuma-must-be-supported-in-his-continental-accord-for-dictators/comment-page-2/#comment-85613</link>
		<dc:creator>Rose Morrow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 16:10:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Paul, it would be workable if the majority of African Leaders, particularly those who follow tyrants relinquishing power with a &quot;bribe&quot;, were genuinely committed to democratic government and determined to implement it in their countries.  &quot;It&#039;s the principle.......&quot; will kill millions more people as time marches on.  Democratic African Leaders are often between a rock and a hard place – take Mugabe for instance – in the March election, 48% of Zimbabweans who voted put the tick next to his name – SAFM had a phone in vote prior to the election and 98% of the callers ‘cast their vote’ for Mugabe – It’s a mystery really!  It isn’t just the leaders but the people themselves that must be convinced of the efficacy of democracy. For that to happen they have to experience the positive, concrete effects of it in their lives.   

That said, Africa has journeyed far with regard to democracy and it will get better as time goes on, particularly if South Africa can be written up as a success story in the long term.  If we can continue along the democratic path whilst at the same time eradicate corruption and crime (some at least) and most importantly, have the majority of our people living decently and with dignity – then our success could be the catalyst for other African Leaders to really “come on board” the democracy train.

There is a rite of passage to genuine, meaningful democratic government - has any country made it all the way as yet?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul, it would be workable if the majority of African Leaders, particularly those who follow tyrants relinquishing power with a &#8220;bribe&#8221;, were genuinely committed to democratic government and determined to implement it in their countries.  &#8220;It&#8217;s the principle&#8230;&#8230;.&#8221; will kill millions more people as time marches on.  Democratic African Leaders are often between a rock and a hard place – take Mugabe for instance – in the March election, 48% of Zimbabweans who voted put the tick next to his name – SAFM had a phone in vote prior to the election and 98% of the callers ‘cast their vote’ for Mugabe – It’s a mystery really!  It isn’t just the leaders but the people themselves that must be convinced of the efficacy of democracy. For that to happen they have to experience the positive, concrete effects of it in their lives.   </p>
<p>That said, Africa has journeyed far with regard to democracy and it will get better as time goes on, particularly if South Africa can be written up as a success story in the long term.  If we can continue along the democratic path whilst at the same time eradicate corruption and crime (some at least) and most importantly, have the majority of our people living decently and with dignity – then our success could be the catalyst for other African Leaders to really “come on board” the democracy train.</p>
<p>There is a rite of passage to genuine, meaningful democratic government &#8211; has any country made it all the way as yet?</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Whelan</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2009/06/14/zuma-must-be-supported-in-his-continental-accord-for-dictators/comment-page-2/#comment-85609</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Whelan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 15:01:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2009/06/14/zuma-must-be-supported-in-his-continental-accord-for-dictators/#comment-85609</guid>
		<description>Rose Morrow

Everyone needs to think out what is being offered to these powerful and brutal people. 

If it is a bribe to leave office, it would have to be a bribe, pure and simple - no disagreeable conditions can be attached to it or it will not be accepted. If it is not a bribe, then the &#039;offer&#039; must in some way be backed by a penalty - if you do not accept this, harsh consequences will follow.

But no consequences follow anything these tyrants do - that is the point. They know they enjoy impunity.

This is a proposal from people who are not able or prepared to do anything else about it. The idea is unoriginal, undesirable and, worst of all, unworkable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rose Morrow</p>
<p>Everyone needs to think out what is being offered to these powerful and brutal people. </p>
<p>If it is a bribe to leave office, it would have to be a bribe, pure and simple &#8211; no disagreeable conditions can be attached to it or it will not be accepted. If it is not a bribe, then the &#8216;offer&#8217; must in some way be backed by a penalty &#8211; if you do not accept this, harsh consequences will follow.</p>
<p>But no consequences follow anything these tyrants do &#8211; that is the point. They know they enjoy impunity.</p>
<p>This is a proposal from people who are not able or prepared to do anything else about it. The idea is unoriginal, undesirable and, worst of all, unworkable.</p>
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		<title>By: Ngim Mwa</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2009/06/14/zuma-must-be-supported-in-his-continental-accord-for-dictators/comment-page-2/#comment-85587</link>
		<dc:creator>Ngim Mwa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 13:13:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>This Zuma and Mo Amins ideas are good but i also think its also good to warn future dictators they should also think that military means by like minded nations can be used and the then dictator when caught he and co should suffer the most painful panishment and death televised for all to see.I know i may sound uncultured and inhuman but this despots are not human themselves why then should they be accorded human treatment?human treatment is for those who want to repent.It should be made Samuel Doe&#039;s death look like toy game.FEAR AND INDUCEMENT can be good deterrent like the way we have hell and heaven!!!!!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This Zuma and Mo Amins ideas are good but i also think its also good to warn future dictators they should also think that military means by like minded nations can be used and the then dictator when caught he and co should suffer the most painful panishment and death televised for all to see.I know i may sound uncultured and inhuman but this despots are not human themselves why then should they be accorded human treatment?human treatment is for those who want to repent.It should be made Samuel Doe&#8217;s death look like toy game.FEAR AND INDUCEMENT can be good deterrent like the way we have hell and heaven!!!!!!!</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Grant</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2009/06/14/zuma-must-be-supported-in-his-continental-accord-for-dictators/comment-page-2/#comment-85585</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Grant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 13:09:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2009/06/14/zuma-must-be-supported-in-his-continental-accord-for-dictators/#comment-85585</guid>
		<description>Traps I agree with you 100% on this. There are the obvious hurdles like ensuring that they do not get prosecuted once they relinquish control of their armies.

Most of them are wealthy old men, who have probably not been responsible for the deaths of more people than your average global multinational CEO.

Besides, its a small price to pay for the democratization of millions of poeple.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Traps I agree with you 100% on this. There are the obvious hurdles like ensuring that they do not get prosecuted once they relinquish control of their armies.</p>
<p>Most of them are wealthy old men, who have probably not been responsible for the deaths of more people than your average global multinational CEO.</p>
<p>Besides, its a small price to pay for the democratization of millions of poeple.</p>
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		<title>By: Felas</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2009/06/14/zuma-must-be-supported-in-his-continental-accord-for-dictators/comment-page-2/#comment-85573</link>
		<dc:creator>Felas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:52:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2009/06/14/zuma-must-be-supported-in-his-continental-accord-for-dictators/#comment-85573</guid>
		<description>We must also remember that most if not all dictatorships in Africa were entrenched by the Western powers and and the Soviet Union during the Cold War. The Soviet Union is understandable as it was a dictatorship itself. The Western countries, however, need to account for their role to keep the Mugabes, Mobutos and others in power for longer than needed. They created these monsters. It is only when these monsters started defying them that they began to talk about dictators, human rights etc. For instance Mugabe remained the darling of the British long after ordering the killing of thousands of Ndebele people in Matabeleland. No mention of human rights was made.

Zuma is correct we need a once-off amnesty for the dictators to reliquish power to expedite democracy in Africa. As South Africans we have seen how having a strong democratic basis have helped us avoid civil war, overthrow of government, chaos and other ills that are gripping Africa.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We must also remember that most if not all dictatorships in Africa were entrenched by the Western powers and and the Soviet Union during the Cold War. The Soviet Union is understandable as it was a dictatorship itself. The Western countries, however, need to account for their role to keep the Mugabes, Mobutos and others in power for longer than needed. They created these monsters. It is only when these monsters started defying them that they began to talk about dictators, human rights etc. For instance Mugabe remained the darling of the British long after ordering the killing of thousands of Ndebele people in Matabeleland. No mention of human rights was made.</p>
<p>Zuma is correct we need a once-off amnesty for the dictators to reliquish power to expedite democracy in Africa. As South Africans we have seen how having a strong democratic basis have helped us avoid civil war, overthrow of government, chaos and other ills that are gripping Africa.</p>
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