Readers who are of a mind to do so may scroll back and go through articles where I have tackled Islamophobia. This is an exercise I have done repeatedly not for any recognition but because I believe that intolerance is an evil which should not be allowed to go unchecked. It has also included an ongoing struggle against homophobia, misogyny and all the other hatreds that seem to afflict the human race.
This time out I want to look at anti-Semitism in light of Cosatu’s decision to march to the offices of Beyachad, a Jewish community centre in Raedene, a densely populated Jewish residential area, as opposed to the Israeli Embassy.
South Africa, as we have repeatedly seen, has steadfastly refused to deal effectively with racists and bigots at parliamentary level, which has only served to intensify the spreading of intolerance, which has had and will continue to have serious consequences. The xenophobia we witnessed last year was sufficient warning of how ugly this can become. Yet repeatedly we have seen ministers and deputy ministers making racist remarks seemingly with impunity.
Across the hallway one of the ANC’s alliance partners, Cosatu, decided that they would illegally demonstrate outside local Jewish offices in Johannesburg. In essence that any feelings towards Israel regarding the Palestinian conflict should be directed at the local Jewish community and not against Israel or that old hoary chestnut, the Zionists. This was not aimed at the Israeli Embassy nor was there a Zionist gathering worthy of targeting — just simple raw anti-Semitism aimed at the local Jewish community.
Cosatu are of course free to correct me if I’m wrong — perhaps they might even be able to set out how, during this march, they delineated between those Jews who are Israelis, those who are Zionists and those who are Jews but do not fall into either of the other two groups. What about those Jews who are sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians. Was Cosatu’s desperate need to display their hatred of Jews too compelling to waste time on the niceties? While they’re doing this exercise perhaps they might also confirm who decided not only on the march but where it should take place.
More importantly Cosatu should now set out for us when it was, and by whom it was decided, that South Africans should start to vent ill-feeling regarding overseas confrontations on local communities? In time they may well see that calling this a dangerous precedent is the understatement of 2009.
If we as South Africans allow this as the way forward then we will be opening up a Pandora’s box that might never be closed. By way of example and using the conduct of Cosatu to guide us, what you are inviting is inter alia a Hindu-Jewish march against the Muslim community to express outrage over Mumbai, perhaps a black African Muslim march against the Muslim community to protest Darfur, a feminist march against Islam regarding the blowing up of girls’ schools in Pakistan and on and on ad nauseam. Indeed if regard is had to the global Islamic community right now, extremists are currently involved in conflicts on almost every continent and against almost every race, creed, culture and sex the planet has to offer. Moreover the targets involved are more often than not civilians.
Accordingly should our local Muslim community, based upon the Cosatu model, be held accountable for their actions?
If you needed time to answer that don’t try and operate any heavy machinery. Of course you cannot ask our local Muslim community to answer for extremists just as you cannot fault Muslims who identify with their co-religionists throughout the world. If our local community doesn’t feel a bond with those who share their version of Islam, then they are unique. Most of us identify with those who share our religious beliefs.
The fact that Muslims identify with those who share their religion does not mean that they condone extremism nor support it. Even where they do support it but go about their daily lives in South Africa as lawful citizens there can be no call to bring pressure on their community. Where individuals take part in terrorism they can be dealt with individually but certainly no more than that.
That is just the Muslim community, what about the rest? Where do you draw the line or are people suggesting that groups post a 24-hour guard to keep an eye out on events happening around the world? If for example Russia and Georgia return to hostilities would local communities with ties to the conflict begin preparation for local conflict?
Accordingly to target protests against local communities for events overseas is not only inciting violence but dangerously groping in the dark. Unless Cosatu can furnish us a reason why they chose to target a local community for events in the Middle East and how they went about distinguishing which individuals supported what cause, there can be no doubting that as an organisation they are simply anti-Semitic.
Indeed and without minimising the Israeli-Palestinian conflict there are a number of other conflicts on the planet right now where casualties and atrocities have far exceeded anything that has taken place in Gaza and in respect of which Cosatu appear quite oblivious. Perhaps they might address this issue as well: How does this conflict in so far as a South African trade union stand out above all others, particularly with so many wars on our own continent? Do they draw a conflict out of a hat and then storm the castle or did all roads simply lead to an inherent hatred?
In terms of the conflict itself, lest some of my co-religionists suggest I am dodging the real issue, I have made my views very clear on the subject and hopefully been fair to both sides without pulling punches. As an Orthodox Jew, albeit without sufficient training to speak on behalf of the community, I do believe that Israel’s response has been disproportionate and that the time is long overdue for the establishment of a two-state solution. I also believe that the Palestinians have “sponsors” whose agenda does not include a Palestinian state and who would be quite happy to see this conflict continue indefinitely. Accordingly both parties need to shed the spoilers, the opportunists and get around a table.
The Muslim and Jewish community of South Africa have generally gotten along very well. Events that are taking place overseas do and should concern us all as they seem to impact on the planet as a whole. What they should not do is drive a wedge between us in South Africa. The aim should be to rather build on what we have achieved here and assist in bringing peace to that tortured region rather than allowing others to have fun demonstrating their latest intolerance.
If we as South Africans don’t clamp down hard on all intolerance we will invariably all land up as its victims.
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78 Responses to “Cosatu: Anti-Semitic?”
A few additional facts to put in perspective the dangerously inflammatory, and bigoted, nature of the COSATU march:
A flag of Israel sporting a swastika in place of the Magen David was burned and stomped on by the crowd. This took place outside a synagogue and a Jewish charitable institution.
Cosatu spokesman Bongani Masuku said: “We want to convey a message to the Jews in SA that our 1.9-million workers who are affiliated to Cosatu are fully behind the people of Palestine. Any business owned by Israel supporters will be a target of workers in South Africa.”
Masuku also posted a threatening and abusive comment on the It’s Almost Supernatural blogsite, part of which read: “Every Zionist must be made to drink the bitter medicine they are feeding our brothers and sisters in Palestine. We must target them, expose them and do all that is needed to subject them to perpetual suffering until they withdraw from the land of others”.
This is raw incitement against the Jewish community, and also for that matter against the many Christian supporters of Israel who are proud to call themselves Zionists. Doesn’t South Africa have enough problems without foreign conflicts being introduced on our streets?
siyabonga ntshingila on February 11th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Very well said. The conflation of a state’s actions with a group only indirectly linked (and wholly unresponsible) is profoundly flawed and dangerous. Whatever you may think of Israel’s actions (and I, for one, am appalled), they are in no way the responsibility of Jewish people in general, they are the actions of a STATE and the proper responsibility rests with that STATE.
This is the very worst kind of intolerance - the intolerance that clothes itself in the guise of solidarity with the oppressed. “Justified” intolerance.
What many fail to do is distinguish between intolerance of IDEAS and intolerance of PEOPLE.
We have the right, indeed the duty, to be intolerant of ideas. How else can we even talk about right and wrong? All beliefs are not equal, and all lifestyles that derive from those beliefs are not equal.
But, we should absolutely be tolerant of people, and not merely disapprove or “attack” on the basis of group identity - even when we disagree with their belief systems.
The SA Jewish Board of Deputies, the SAZF and the chief rabbi have issued a statement claiming that the “SA Jewish community firmly supports the decision of the government of Israel to launch a military operation against Hamas in the Gaza Strip”.
So have they “delineated between those Jews who are Israelis, those who are Zionists and those who are Jews but do not fall into either of the other two groups. What about those Jews who are sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians.”
While I sympathise with those who feel unfairly targeted- if leaders do not differentiate between those in their community that sympathise with Palestinians and those that do not in public statements, you can’t really expect everyone else to.
The difference between the other situations mentioned- the Mumbai bombings, Darfur, blowing up a school in Pakistan- is that the relevant community in South Africa condemned these actions. There were no statements that the Muslims of South Africa are fully behind those in Darfur!
Cosatu is responding to statements made by Jewish leaders. If the leaders are wrong in generalising, don’t blame Cosatu.
“If we as South Africans don’t clamp down hard on all intolerance we will invariably all land up as its victims.”
Traps, unfortunately intolerance appears to be endemic to SAn society, and the ANC from Mbeki onwards has appeared determined to lever open the divisions in SA as much as possible.
Let me, at the risk of sounding like those who accuse you of sidestepping the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, make just one observation or two:
You ‘courageously’ assert: “…I do believe that Israel’s response has been disproportionate and that the time is long overdue for the establishment of a two-state solution…”
For a person self-styled as aversive to human rights abuses occurring everywhere in the world (including Israel), “disproportionate” is the only word you can come up with in response to the Israeli incursion of Gaza. I wonder what has made you desist from “pulling the punches” in this conflict, while rampantly doing so in the neighbouring Zimbabwe, for instance. Could it be that your obsessive focus on Zimbabwe represents a springboard upon which you can conveniently expiate your guilt over your silence on the human rights abuses that have become the hallmark of the Israeli assaultive stance on Palestinian civilians?
You also ‘courageously’ hold that “I also believe that the Palestinians have “sponsors” whose agenda does not include a Palestinian state and who would be quite happy to see this conflict continue indefinitely.”
Wow, is anyone out there noticing this sudden emergence of the “sponsors” theme when it is actually convenient for Trapido? I invite you, Trapido, to replace the word ‘Palestinians’ with the ‘MDC of Zimbabwe’, and ‘Palestianian’ with ‘Zimbabwean’ – and then see if this makes sense for you.
Thankfully, while the assaultive approach so glorified by the apologists of Israel continues to induce the suffering of people in the Middle East, the MDC’s Tsvangirai has seen it fit to heed your unwitting advice for him to “get around a table” with his ZANU-PF counterparts as a way of finding solutions to Zimbabwe’s problems. Today’s swearing in of Tsvangirai as Zimbabwe’s Prime Minister bears testimony to this commitment to “getting around a table” with those you are in disagreement with, as opposed to the adversarial and misplaced confrontation that you correctly apportion on COSATU.
You shoulld be asking yourself this question, when people abroad promoted the boycott of US products, did that mean that they’re anti-American or were they merely advocating for a change in US foreign policy?
Likewise, did you think that people were anti-South African when they banned South Africa from participating in any international sporting event? or boycotted some of its products?
Very well said - the level of intolerance being exhibited by COSATU should give us all pause, especially bearing in mind that their political hand is likely to be strengthened in the upcoming government.
However, I don’t believe it is necessarily appropriate to call them anti-semites. Yes, some of their behaviour is indistinguishable from antisemistism, but it may be hasty to extrapolate an ideology based on some poorly thought out decisions on their part. Indeed, I believe they act out of ignorance rather than any malign intent.
But ignorance is dangerous. Sometimes more destructive than wilful rascism. Perusing Vavi’s utterences on Israel and the Palestinians, his rhetoric exceeds even the most ardent anti-Zionists in its vehemency. At least most (such as Robert Fisk and others - even Chomsky and Finkelstein - in the left-wing press)condemn Hamas rockets, however perfunctorily. COSATU has adopted a clear black-and-white, good vs. evil approach in which any and all Palestinian actions are deemed acceptable, hoewever blindingly repugnant to just about anyone else. Indeed, their denunciations of Israel exceed even those of non-Hamas Palestinians themselves, who are willing to recognise Israel under certain conditions. This being the case, COSATU’s approach is not only unhelpful in supporting a peaceful settlement in the Middle East but is deliberately inciting ethnic tension on a quasi-official basis. This is utterly indefensible.
I would love to see a COSATU representative in a public debate on this issue, which would almost certainly and instantly expose their ignorance and/or hatred, if any really does exist. My first question to Vavi: How to deal with non-Jews in our society who happen to support Israel (there are many). Boycott their businesses, perhaps? An unsatisfactory answer leads to a slippery slope to racism - pick up your Protocols of Zion booklet and a T-shirt on the way out..
Sha - With all due respect you are wrong on what distinguishes Darfur etc from the Gaza issue.
Firstly if there has been widespread condemnation of those examples please show them to us. If there hasn’t you’ll understand when I say that other than the leaders of groups, the local Muslim community is not obliged to answer for what happens overseas. If they endorse or refute the Taliban or anyone else, then good luck to them its a free country.
In respect of those that stayed silent how does that differ from the Jews who have stayed silent?
Moreover are you suggesting that where the extremists have received endorsement that that be translated as the view of all Muslims? And even if Muslims here do give support to their brothers overseas - which many do - why is that anyones business?
What gives anyone the right to judge a local community on events overseas?
To march on the Beyachad Jewish Community Centre in Raedene to protest against Zionist atrocity in Gaza is wrong.And can send the wrong signals to people who do not like jews for whatever reason.
It is also irresponsible when the vanguard appear to be a respected and well supported organisation who exercise a strong influence on the SA body politic.
I can understand the solidarity,as Zionist atrocity if not more brutal seem similar to Apartheid South African atrocity.
But to march on the Raedene community could be construed as the beginning(hope this is proven wrong)of the plight of the Japanese community in the USA during WW2 and the attack on the Muslim community of Britain during the war against weapons of mass destruction that turned out to an oil grab.
The community of Raedene should be assured that this will never happen again.
To boycott Israeli goods would be a much more creative form of protest………….?
We need to strenghthen our anti racism that we have fought so hard for and guard against opportunists who exploit this for personal gain and those who hate the other for simply being the other.
Traps,cheer up, you are invited for a chopliver beigel.
“This is raw incitement against the Jewish community, and also for that matter against the many Christian supporters of Israel who are proud to call themselves Zionists.”
Unfortunately that sort of statement seems to be calculated to reinforcing the antisemitic propaganda that Michael is quite correctly seeking to address.
I am confused by this blog. Michael has tried to make a few points but his thought flow is incoherent and stuttered. If I understand him correctly, there are 4 main issues that he would like to put out.
1. Cosatu should not be taking on the Palestininan cause.
2. Cosatu should not target the Jewish community in South Africa.
3.Not all South African Jews are zionists.
4.Muslim is to Pakistan as Jewish is to Israel.
Here are my responses:
1. Cosatu should take on the Palestinian cause if it wants to. Cosatu has a long tradition in the struggle against injustice and apartheid. Labour movements in foreign countries were important in the fight against apartheid eg. Danish dock workers. While most other wars in the world at present are civil wars or invasions, the atrocities in Gaza were a massacre by one of the largest armies in the world. And Israel parallels an apartheid state, a comparison that disturbs Cosatu, like it or not.
2. Cosatu should not target the Jewish community in South Africa. However, the Jewish community should not be too quick to cry anti-semitism when the Jewish Board of Deputies makes sweeping statements about what “South African Jews” feel.
3. We know that not all South African Jews are Zionists and it cannot be emphasised further that the protests were targeted at Zionists and not Jewish people. There is a difference- though it is often conflated when people complain about anti-semitism. Anti-semitism is a serious allegation- it is akin to racism. It does not cover criticism of a political ideal like Zionism.
4. The State of Israel is formed on a Zionist ideal to create a Jewish homeland. All Jews around the world are ENTITLED to citizenship in Israel. This is not the case in any muslim country, and there is no muslim homeland. And thus, muslim organisations don’t identify with, or make statements of solidarity with Pakistan or Sudan or Malaysia or Kosovo in the same way that the Jewish community has made statements in solidarity with Israel. As such, marching on the muslim population would make no sense.
The issue is not religion- its a humanitarian issue. There is an ethnic injustice being perpetrated and Cosatu is protesting the support offered by the Jewish Board of Deputies. Thats all.
I hear what you are trying to say. My issue is that the SAJBD and the SAZF (South African Zionist Federation) purport to speak for “SA Jews” and give statements on what “SA Jews” think in a way that no other community does. If the leaders of the community make it seem like all members of the community think in the same way and are all in solidarity with Israel your criticism of Cosatu doesn’t make sense.
With respect to other communities, I have not heard statements in support of muslim countries that purport to represent all “SA muslims” or the “SA muslim community”.
The Jewish community is diverse and has a range of opinions. You wouldn’t believe it though if you listen to statements from Jewish bodies. The same is not true of other communities in my humble opinion.
Marching on a community is wrong. However, as I understand it, the intention was not to march on the community, but on the SAJBD and SAZF (who I understand happen to be colocated with a community centre) who stated that they support Israel. A march against a body that supports an ideal like Zionism and supports a controversial war should be acceptable in a democratic country. It is wrong to claim that they were marching against a community and leaving out the fact that they were marching against these particular organisations. I would have marched against organisations that supported apartheid in an overseas country anyday.
NZS - While I don’t agree with some of your argument it is extremley well put. You must be getting soft - Normally you are calling me so many names I have to wade through it.
Don’t for a minute believe that I am oblivious to or dismiss the plight of the Palestinians. If you read the link I am acutely aware of it. So too the Israelis who’ve had rockets raining down for a number of years.
In terms of Zimbabwe like many I am sceptical about the president BUT I have called for investment, loans and aid because there are bigger issues at stake right now. Regardless of how we arrived at the GNU we are there now and WE MUST try to make it work.
I don’t care if all us doubters are proved wrong - I’ll be thrilled. In addition I will do my best to assist them in proving me wrong.
Siph + Kangaroos - Nobody is suggesting that people can’t call for boycotts, protest or give their views. That’s why we have free speech. As Issy CORRECTLY points out Cosatu are entitled to their views.
Sha - the problem is that the communities don’t spend enough time building bridges to one another. It’s all the nonsense we are told about each other. We don’t see people we see a blur.
People are the same the world over that is why I spend half the time telling people that nobody is superior to anyone else.
“My issue is that the SAJBD and the SAZF (South African Zionist Federation) purport to speak for “SA Jews” and give statements on what “SA Jews” think in a way that no other community does.”
That is not entirely true. Just a few years ago some extremely right-wing organizations in South Africa regularly claimed to speak on behalf of the Afrikaner. The arrogance, manipulation and dishonesty in that also made me cringe.
It is no secret that in South Africa, the majority of Jewish people through the influence of the Zionist dominated SAJBD supports the racist and expansionist actions of the state of Israel. Naom Chomsky, a Jew and one of the most celebrated intellectuals in the world considers Zionism and the state of Israel fascist! Pehaps he is also anti-Semitic. The claim of anti-Semitism is a pathetic attempt to silence people who stand up to an occupying power. You might be interested to know that Adam Bromovich and Cosatu’s provincial coordinator, who is Jewish was also part of the protest. When are you going to call for an end to the occupation, humiliation and oppression of Palestinian people. Jews in South Africa can go to Israel and get citizenship, but Palestinians who were displaced during the many conflicts can’t go back to their own lands. Is that what you call justice and decency. We know what the Palestinians are going through, and we will continue to support them. Infact Tutu said Israel was apartheid on a grand scale.
Don’t expect the MAJORITY of the people in this country to care about the angsts of the occupiers and their enablers. Israel and the US considered many of our own leaders like Mandela terrorists because they stood for justice. Today when Palestinians fight a military/violent occupation with violance you want them to resist with flowers and expect us to join your hypocritical choruses. We will not forget Palestine.
Dear Michael
The COSATU protest is misguided indeed but hardly a sign that the labour movement is Antisemitic. It is clear to me that the protest is based on the idea that the most likely purchasers of Israeli goods would be among local Jews. In light of this it is understandable (though it is not altogether wise) for COSATU to address its protest to members of a community seen to support Israel in various small ways. I do think though (in partial agreement with you) that it would have been politically sensitive for COSATU to have used a more strategic approach — an approach focussed on targeting for protest and boycott businesses (both non-Jewish and Jewish)that directly benefit from military contracts with Israel or which provide any significant material support to the Israeli military. A blanket protest of the sort that we have seen from COSATU, targetting Jewish institutions at random, although it is not antisemitic per se, does leave the door open to the interpretation that it is. COSATU, let’s not strengthen Zionism by making Jewish people feel targeted and isolated merely because they are perceived to be potential supporters of Israel. Let’s do the research in an unbiased manner. Let’s find out which businesses (including our government which deals in arms), supply the Israeli military or support the Israeli economy in a significant way. We should focus our protest on these, and no doubt, with the care taken to include progressive Jewish people on the side of any such protest movement.
Perphaps it is time that Jewish people and communities voluntarily stood up and let the likes of the SAJBD and David Saks KNOW that they do NOT speak in our name, and must be actively prevented from making sweeping statements that tacitly assume our support for Israeli state-sanctioned murder and mayhem. Perhaps it is our silence on the matter, that has likened us to the monster that has crawled towards Bethlehem to be born.
I, like Sha, understood the march to be focused on the SAJBD which happens to be resident in said communities. While I take the point about not conflating Judaism and Zionism, i dont think the SAJBD in their commentary on the recent Israeli attacks, paid enough attention to this distinction themselves.
This said, i think there are also historical issues…many former anti-apartheid activists still feel aggrieved at the SAJBD’s role during Apartheid, many feel they kowtowed to the Nats to protect their interests. If you take the recent SAJBD’s ‘IDF solidarity statements’ against the above backdrop, its easy to see why many remain resentful. Maybe David et al would do well to reach out to civics etc-not as aggrieved Jews, but as SAns-1st seeking concurrence…
I find this difclt 2 believe Michael, but of it is true that Cosatu are planning to march to the Jewish community, then it is very wrong. I have my views about the Gaza situation: I deplore the massacre and inhumane treatemnt of Plastinians by Israel and I reject the murder of innocent people in malls, etc through suicide bombs, but do not bielive in S.A. we should march against any community here at home. As an African first and foremeost who knows no other home, I am a bit disturbed where so much emotions and resources are invested in matters foreign. Local Jews ( and some Moslems) better decide which country/territory/region they regard as home, and move over accordingly
If COSATU spent as much time being an effective labour coalition as they did on whatever political cause tickles their leaders fancy, be it Israel or Zuma, the poor and labourers in this country may actually stand a chance.
Seriously, is there any labour coalition more ineffectual than COSATU. The plight of SA workers continues to deteriorate and they’re marching against a conflict not even on the same continent. I’m sure there must be a study out there measuring the effectiveness of COSATU on labour and I’m sure it shows their effectiveness is pretty low.
I do wonder however when COSATU are going to march against the conflict in the DRC considering in the past ten years over 4.5 MILLION people have died there.
Pasile - As you say you won’t be dictated to by minorities.
You have also made your disdain for whites well known both on Sentletse’s site as well as mine.
Jews even more so.
I applaud your firm stand - Sorry I will applaud your firm stand as soon as you put your full name underneath all that hatred you so eloquently set out.
Actions like this only strengthen the resolve of why Zionists established a Jewsish state. The fact that throughout history every country that jews have settled in have turned on them in the most evil, horrific and inhumane ways that history has witnessed. The main argumenet to create a state for Jews was the fact that Jewish people need a place that was safe to live as a Jew. Its widely known fact that Zionists “love” anti semitism as its their fuel and rationale for creating a jewsish state. So the more people like Cosatu react and behave in the manner all they are doing is actually strengthing the Zionists view of creating a Jewish State. People must remember one thing that JEWS around the world will never let what has happened in the past happen again. So if Palestinians want to throw a bomb Israel will respond with 10 bombs. Jews will not feebly go marching to the chambers ever again. Carry on being anti semitic and right wing zionists will sit back and say see we have to act strong or we will be killed.
“Naom Chomsky, a Jew and one of the most celebrated intellectuals in the world considers Zionism and the state of Israel fascist! Pehaps he is also anti-Semitic.”
Not to mention Ronnie Kaserils ? Pasile, do you sort of understand why it is wrong, racist and even antsemitic to refer to Jews when you mean to say Israelis or Zionists?
Just as there are Jews there are also black people all over the world pasile. I didn’t see Israeli’s marching around in Tel Aviv accusing the “blacks” of committing genocide in Rwanda.
Issy said “the atrocities in Gaza were a massacre by one of the largest armies in the world”
According to Wikipedia Israel’s army is number 23 in the world with a count of 612,000 including reserves. Only 10% of North Korea’s with an army of 5,806,000. But numbers don’t always count.
Michael, why is it anti-semitic when the SAJBD are criticized and it’s supporters?
I had had high regard for the Jewish community and their leaders in SA, and the chief Rabbi, too, I had much respect, but after seeing the SAJBD’s response and support of the killings in GAZA, well I have lost all respect.
Because I do not respect those who support genocide does that make me anti-semitic?
You show your true colours when you whinge and whine about Mugabe, but the the worlds largest concentration camp is a non issue with you.
I am disappointed on your level of humanity. I am disappointed in you - does that make me anti-semitic?
By the way - my reference to the Jewish community are those that are supportive of the SAJBD and those that do not speak out against the SAJBD stance on the GAZA killings. I respect and support members of the Jewish community that made public statements in criticizing Israel’s occupation and killings in GAZA and Palestine as a whole.
Michael, my name is Pasile Mzunzima Mtshwelo. You have typically avoided my central argument, which is that through the vile Zionist influence in the SAJBD, the majority of the South African Jewry supports and defends the fascist state of Israel! I have challenged you to call for an end to the occupation, humiliation and oppression of Palestinian states. I have asked you to state your position on the universally recognized rights of Palestinian Refugees to return to their homeland after fleeing Israeli aggression. I have asked you whether you think there is justice in you being able to go reside in Israel when a Palestinian enjoys no such right. You avoid all these questions in order to cheaply attempt to potray me as anti-Semetic and racist. I have always acknowledged the unparalleled contribution that the Jewish people have made to the world, infact most of my personal heroes are Jewish- Grooenburg, Feunbach, Spinoza, Marx, Einstein, Trotsky, Pepe, Chomsky. I am also friends with a lot of Jewish people. These are not the kind that mortgage their humanity for ideological reasons. And my wife is a beautiful Greek woman!
Anyhow, stop personalizing the issues you have initiated and honestly answer my arguments.
@ Michael …… your comment about appending ones full name to comments is so important.
Thought Leader is seen as a site which caters to people who are prepared to think about what they are saying and should be happy to identify themselves to underpin their opinions.
There is something distasteful about anonymity in this context
anton kleinschmidt on February 12th, 2009 at 6:33 pm
Michael.
The argument for Israel’s policies is tough to make. It’s not a rockets vs F16s issue, it’s an apartheid state massacring a population confined, by it, to a ghetto. If you concede this here, it should be tough to condemn cosatu for marching on a community centre.
Further, I believe, there are enough outspoken Jews on the left, both in cosatu and among the communists, to ensure that Jews and Zonists are not conflated. And thank god for them!
The issue for you then is not the form of the protest methinks, but the cause itself.
What CAN cosatu do? is the question. I, for one, am happy that they are doing what they can.
Ismail – To criticize the SAJBD and its supporters is not per se anti-Semitic. Feel free to attack their policies but don’t tell me randomly marching on communities without even knowing their views is justified.
“Because I don’t support genocide it makes me anti-semitic”?
What’s the question? Where was that stated or from what can it be inferred? Don’t make up garbage
and then base your questions on that made up garbage.
I have already expressed my concern at the plight of the Palestinians so please don’t make things up as you go along. Read the link. I will also post a number of articles, better yet scroll back, where I
attacked islamophobia and got hammered by the freedom of speech brigade.
I have and will continue to reject prejudice because unlike you I am not a bigot.
For example I don’t come on here saying garbage like I used to respect Muslims until
Mumbai. I will always respect Muslims and stand up to intolerance against them and that is not conditional upon your support or otherwise.
As for Mugabe I have shown, as the country is the biggest problem in our region,which incredibly you seem to show no interest in at all, that my continent and my country come first in my thinking.
There are 7 million Zimbabweans who are at risk. Where are your articles on Zimbabwe? Where is your outrage at more than half of Zimbabwe’s people being at risk? Or isn’t that of any interest?
The fact that I have shown my concern for the Palestinians and Muslims in general long
before any of this became an issue, shows that facts really aren’t the issue with you. The fact that I am Jewish is the issue.
Tough.
Now that I have answered you in full can you give me your take on Pakistans admission today that they were implicated in Mumbai? That without any provocation random and indiscriminate attacks on civilians were planned in Pakistan. Please also furnish me your articles condemning this attack.
What is your approach to Hamas firing rockets at civilians? Can civilians ever be justified as a target?
If you read the link you would have seen that I took the Israeli army to task and said Jews do not
behave like this. Where are your articles remonstrating with your side?
Unlike you Ismail I’m not disappointed in you, you are exactly as I perceived you.
Pasile – Firstly thank you for identifying yourself.
You suggest that it is through the vile influence of Zionists that most of South African Jewry
Supports the fascist State of Israel.
Unfortunately it is through the incredible anti-Semitism that exists that most Jews the world
Over support the State of Israel.
Fascist state? Try looking up Fascism get the definition, look up the system of government in Israel and come back and ask me again.
Could you please explain to me the “Universally recognized rights” and I’ll answer your question
With pleasure.
My opinion if you read the link is that the Palestinians and Israelis need to get around a table now. That means Hamas, Fatah and the Israelis. In my view and it is only my view, I believe that Gaza, the West Bank and a negotiated portion should be put together to create a viable Palestinian State which Israel must not interfere with.
Is that a good idea? I don’t know it’s my idea and what I believe to be fair. Far greater minds than mine are scratching their heads on this one. If the three parties come to a better solution I’m for it.
I also know that none of the three sides have any justification for continuing to ignore the real issue. Many people are getting hurt and no solution is being found. If you aren’t around a table you can’t start the process.
In terms of it being unjust for Palestinians – I believe that to be the case in toto never mind in just not having a country to return to. I have
no doubt that unless a permanent home is found for the Palestinians that is agreeable to all 3 parties this issue can never be resolved. Not by force and not by building walls.
In general - I find it so interesting that I am able to feel empathy to both sides, denounce aggression and seek a just solution and yet have to listen to so-called caring people who ignore the suffering on one side as if it doesn’t exist.
As I said above the most interesting for me was Ismail telling me that I only worry about Zimbabwe (lowest Life expectancy in the world, 3 x the death toll of Gaza just from Cholera and 7 million at risk) my neighbours and the Guys I deal with almost daily and ignore Gaza. (Apparently because Ismail can’t be bothered to read and I’m Jewish
It must be so).
My respect for the Muslim community was established LONG before this issue simply scroll back. Regardless of how many comments come in which assume that because I’m Jewish I must be anti-Muslim without reading won’t alter
my view. I don’t “lose respect” because unlike Ismail I actually do respect the community and don’t look for a gap to say “I used to love Muslims but….” Like the crap I’m reading about Jews.
If you respect Jews then you will respect their affinity towards Israel as any religious group has to its spiritual home. That Israel makes mistakes? Trust me there is nobody more critical of Israel than Jews.
What it is, is that because of anti-Semitism Jews get defensive when outsiders criticize them.
“If you respect Jews then you will respect their affinity towards Israel as any religious group has to its spiritual home.”
You see these kind of statements sort of throws me because above you argue “In essence that any feelings towards Israel regarding the Palestinian conflict should be directed at the local Jewish community and not against Israel or that old hoary chestnut, the Zionists.”
Just for interest sake : the way I understand the requirements for the “Jewish right” to return it is based on ethnicity, except if you can explain to me how Judaism is propagated genetically.
Michael. With respect to the challenges you pose to Ismael and Pasile, I would register two points for you to consider:
1) Zimbabwe: 7 million Zimbabweans are at risk indeed, but not because of a deliberate military onslaught and confinement of an entire population, which is the case with Israel policy on Gaza. Moreover, despite his obstinacy in the past, Mugabe has taken far more steps than Israel even remotely considers, toward finding a negotiated settlement. Isn’t it about time for the Israeli state to negotiate on genuinely democratic and open terms with all parties on the Palestinian side and without setting ridiculous conditions? A truly democratic solution would mean the boldness of giving up on the failed idea of an exclusive Jewish state and moving toward a state and society that embraces Jews, Palestinians or anyone else in the world who might want to emigrate and contribute to culture and economic life of that part of the world.
2)Palestinian rockets? All oppressed people have a right to defend themselves by whatever means necessary. As to moral challenges you raise, consider the point made this week by Michael Mandel at York University, Toronto:”To kill over 1000 Palestinians in 3 weeks, hundreds of them children, and wound thousands more, in order to deter a threat from rockets that did not kill or injure anybody in Israel for the six months the truce was declared by both sides, or even before Israel launched its attack on December 27, is so disproportionate as to be intolerable in any ethical system that holds Palestinian lives equal in value to Israeli lives.”(source: Antiwar.com)
PS: I feel no need to identify myself other than by the name of one of my heroes, the great internationalist, Leon Trotsky. I go by that name because it stands for a world in which no-one suffers injustice on the basis of their religion, race, their sexuality or cultural leanings.
Ozoneblue - If Muslims see Mecca as (one of?) their spiritual homes does that make South African Muslims answerable for problems arising in Saudi Arabia? Does it make them Saudis? Does it mean that they support the policies of that country? If so, all policies or just some? If some, which ones?
The Jewish right of return I will leave to Jewish people who know the requirements far better than I do.
In accordance with our religion (at least in terms of the Orthodox) Jews are born to a Jewish mother.
That of course does not suggest in layman’s terms that a belief in Judaism arises genetically. (I may be wrong on the religious view on this ; I bow to those more religious)
I’d be interested to learn readers views on this issue. My understanding of Islam (Dar al Islam)on this issue is that Islamic lands cannot be taken over by non-Islamic groups. (I bow to those religious Muslims in the know).
If your views on Judaism (religion)being incapable of being propagated genetically were recognised then this would have serious implications for Islam, Judaism and I would imagine many other religions.
As I say I don’t think I know enough about this issue to give you a proper answer.
If you bunch of (mostly) one eyed idiots can’t find common ground how the hell can Israel and Palistine???
One of the sparks that fuels the conflict is supporters of both sides worldide giving not a millimeter of ground for their side whilst sitting comfortably in their lounge seats.
Micheal, its hard to deny Haydn & Pasile’s core arguments…
Which i understand thus; In addition to being a ’spiritual home’ etc, Israel is also a military complex perpetrating what is in all probability an unjust war…So, how to delineate constituencies of these different incarnations of Israel is the issue (where the likely price of being wrong is antisemitism).
To follow on Ozone’s crude eg; Simply being Rwandan (not black!) couldn’t itself be the measure, but certainly being Rwandan (even if only in spirit/diaspora etc) surely is accompanied with the responsibility to take a stand either way. You cant have it both ways…
As for the comment about publishing your name beneath posts being more honest let me tell you that I was recently forced to resign from two positions I have held one for three and one for five years. Even my supervisor said my resignation was political. I am convinced its because I was posting under my full name. I now post anonymously.
Mike, you make no mention of Jewish participation at the Cosatu action- most notably Ronnie Kasrils, the former minister of intelligence, who said that the ongoing “butchering” of Palestinians in Gaza was unacceptable.
“What Israel is doing in Gaza is creating concentration camps because people have nowhere to run. It is reprehensible that we have Zionists here who support Israel.”
Your thoughts on the Jews that supported the action?
The ANC and it’s tripartate alliance have always been anti-semitic, and further, their preference is the support of violent regimes, despots and dictators - as that’s what they really want to be themselves - and they have no tolerance for opposition to their political and economic dictates. Their continual voting in support of ‘rogue’ countries and leaders in the United Nations attests to this, and their support of the anti-semitic rantings at the Durban 1 conference confirms this.
People like those who attended the COSATU march don’t realise that they are making the situation worse. Political moderates are pushed towards extremism when faced by intolerance. If you’d asked me a year ago who i would have voted for in the Israeli elections I would have said Kadima or Labour, without question. If you’d handed me a ballot paper after this latest display of race hatred by COSATU, I would have voted Likud, or someone even further to the right wing.
When Jews see scenes like the one that played out last week, we cannot help but feel afraid. Flag burning, swastikas, and intimidation outside synagogues are frighteningly familiar first steps towards pogroms and genocide. Perhaps it wasn’t intended that way. But when we see powerful allies of the State calling for a boycott on Jewish (oops, sorry, Zionist - I forgot the “code word”) businesses, we could be forgiven for imagining that book burning, looting, and pogroms are next.
Of course it is antisemetism. Anyone who says it isn’t is deluding themselves. The very basis for COSATU’s action against the Jewish community is the antisemetic propoganda spread by communist Russia and extreme leftist groups in Europe and the US.
To most Jews, being Jewish and being a Zionist are inseperable. That doesn’t mean we agree with everything the Israeli government does, but it does mean that we unwaveringly support the right, and indeed the need (especially in the face of such intolerance) for Israel to exist.
Michael, the issue of the way in which Arab states retain exclusive control over their land is red-herring. You’re evading the key issue - the “land” formerly known as Palestine is contested territory. The solution to the often bloody contest is not (as you cautiously imply in your response to ozoneblue) by accepting the Zionist claim to part of old Palestine (Israel) as the exclusive preserve of Jews. There are Palestinians who’ve been denied the right of return to a land they had once enjoyed as citizens while Jews are afforded the rights of citizens whether or not they had ever set foot in Israel. The issue is simply one of justice, and peace and justice can only be achieved in the form of a unitary (rather than separatist) state solution. Such a unitary state would be based on a secular notion of statehood that treats both Palestians and Jews as citizens with common and equal rights. Such a unitary state could be shaped along lines similar to any modern democracy with anyone, other than Jews or Palestinians, that wished to emigrate there, being given the right to apply for citizenship of that state. Naturally, such applications would be considered on criteria, without respect to ethnicity or religion, that any modern state sets in terms laws of immigration control. Such a solution has to be negotiated in good faith and trust that secular democracy contains values, checks and balances, that work for all.
Bilal – My view is that any Jew who wishes to express an opinion, positive or negative, on Israel, Judaism or anything else related thereto must feel free to do so and should never be abused for doing so, by their fellow Jews.
It is my firm belief that by facing criticism, assessing it and then acting upon it or ignoring it, you strengthen yourself as a person, party etc. I have never knocked anyone Jewish or otherwise for criticizing Israel ; that’s what freedom of expression and democracy is all about.
So had every one of those protesters been Jewish and standing outside the Israeli Embassy I would not have even raised the subject.
Frank – I think my answer to Bilal should assist you. Moreover as many of you have pointed out this Jew or that Jew who has shown concern for the Palestinian plight so too will others point to those Jews who support the Israeli government policy on this issue. Just as there are 13 million Jews in the world there are 13 million opinions – ON ANY ISSUE.
It must however be stressed that those people that don’t wish to comment on an issue are also fully entitled to do so, just as other people who ignore issues which they feel they don’t wish to comment on.
AND THEREAFTER NOT BE CLASSIFIED AS ANYTHING because they have not given the opinion some people demand.
Trotsky – My views on reaching a solution is set out in the link and here if you read the comments. You must have eaten a bad herring because what you were referring to relates to a response to a question on genetic propagation.
Dee: “To most Jews, being Jewish and being a Zionist are inseperable. That doesn’t mean we agree with everything the Israeli government does, but it does mean that we unwaveringly support the right, and indeed the need (especially in the face of such intolerance) for Israel to exist.”
They do tend (Dee) to agree with almost everything Israeli. Fair enough? “Most”, not all, mind.
Kasrils: “What Israel is doing in Gaza is creating concentration camps because people have nowhere to run.”
Also fair enough. Polish ghettos at least. Bring the definitions. Yet
Michael: “My view is that any Jew who wishes to express an opinion, positive or negative, on Israel, Judaism or anything else related thereto must feel free to do so and should never be abused for doing so, by their fellow Jews.”
Question: are there any views which a person deserves being “abused” for holding? If not abused, systematically alienated at least?
Some views are pretty deplorable. What should we do about them?
Haydn - Unless the views are in breach of the laws of the country eg incite violence etc (within the legal definition) I don’t believe anyone should be entitled to prescribe what anyone else’s views should be or be the judge of what is acceptable.
If they break laws then leave it to the state to prosecute or sue for defamation if it is a civil claim. DO NOT TAKE THE LAW INTO YOUR OWN HANDS!
In respect of the Jewish community many of the guys at the forefront of the fight for freedom of speech (regardless) are Jewish.
When we started the blog I used to take exception to a lot of the stuff being published against Jews, Christians, Muslims, Homophobia, Misogyny etc.
The flack I took for being draconian and moronic from the freedom of speech brigade had to be seen to be believed.
It made me realise that in order to breathe we do have to allow many opinions we believe to be ugly and trust people to be sensible enough to decide what is worthwhile and what is not.
Jews are usually among the most progressive people around. Unfortunately due to pogroms, inquisitions and the holocaust we are oversensitive to criticism which seems to be heading in that direction.
As a result we tend to throw the baby out with the water. For example a lot of the criticizm raised against Israel’s conduct I’ve heard from other Jews as well. But as soon as a non-Jew says it the old prejudices come to mind.
The fact that most of the time the ongoing rocket attacks against Israeli civilians are ignored or justified doesn’t help either. It translates as you expect us to be self critical but we don’t see you looking in the mirror.
The SA Jewish Board of Deputies, the SAZF and the chief rabbi have issued a statement claiming that the “SA Jewish community firmly supports the decision of the government of Israel to launch a military operation against Hamas in the Gaza Strip”.
If the statement had read (in 1980):
The SA Jewish Board of Deputies, the SAZF and the chief rabbi have issued a statement claiming that the “SA Jewish community firmly supports the decision of the government of South Africa to launch a military operation against the ANC in Southern Africa”?
Beware the cunning use of words to create a juicy great big fib out of a fact.
Here are some facts
1) Israel did not attack Gaza. Israel RETALIATED against terrorism.
2) Israel is deeply saddened by innocent lives lost when they retaliated AGAINST THE TERRORISTS AFTER 8 YEARS OF INDISCRIMINATE ROCKET ATTACKS. Their aim was terrorISM - HAMAS - and not the Palestinians.
Beware the cunning use of words to create a juicy great big fib out of a fact.
Here are some facts
1) Israel did not attack Gaza. Israel RETALIATED against terrorism.
2) Israel is deeply saddened by innocent lives lost when they retaliated AGAINST THE TERRORISTS AFTER 8 YEARS OF INDISCRIMINATE ROCKET ATTACKS. Their aim was terrorism — and not the Palestinians.
Mr Trapido,
There are some who obsess about whether it was 6,000,000 or 5,999,999 or 6,000,001. Where this compulsion to split hairs comes from beats me.
Similarly there are those, like yourself, who are chanting the mantra of “proportionality” in regard to Israel’s rocket-rage, ditto its response to similar attacks from Hisaballah.
Surely the claimed 1,300 civilian and combatant casualties is a record for the LOWEST in any modern war.
For my edification, what is a proportionate response to tens of thousands of rockets, threats to eliminate one’s country and suicide bombers. Certainly the number of rockets being fired at Israeli civilians has abated but not stopped. This must indicate that Israel’s reaction was appropriate.
What you (and the local media) fail to mention is that:
Both UNRWA and Human Rights Watch (normally hyper-critical of Israel) have criticised Hamas for stealing humanitarian aid and murdering political opponents.
The UN has subsequently admitted that UN school that was the target of Israel’s babaric and fascist shelling was actually not hit.
The ANC invited Hamas to South Africa for a state visit three years ago. Hardly impartial.
If you missed the deputy foreign minister’s anti-Jewish outburst, why are you rushing into print? (In typical ANC manner it was the subject of a Malema-style apology).
Sha, I’ve yet to meet a muslim that condemns any muslim atrocities wherever they occur. It’s all about supporting the umma.
There’s something inherently wrong somewhere in Islam, that they only seem to care about wrongs to other muslims.
Then there is Darfur where African muslims seem to be less important than Arab muslims.
“But the mere fact that you are discussing the issue — when there are also other and more pressing problems that need attention — is a good sign. If I may in all modesty make a suggestion: leave the good old anti-Semitism to the archaeologists and antiquarians and historians. Devote your attention to the modern anti-Semitism that wears the disguise of anti-Zionism and to its representatives. You will find some of the latter among your own ranks.”
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on February 16th, 2009 at 9:30 am
@Jeff
The Muslim Judicial Council condemned the attacks in Mumbai, see the statement by Ighsaan Hendricks in the Cape Argus on 1 December 2008. I also distinctly remember condemnation of the September 11 bombings as well as the London train attacks. Closer to home, the MJC condemned the behaviour of Pagad.
Cosatu’s Bongani Masuku writes:
“I continued to quote Mandela when he said that all who have not accepted or woken up to the reality that we now live in a democratic South Africa where racism or promotion of it is a crime, are free to leave the country. I repeat, whether Jew or whosoever does so, must not just be encouraged but forced to leave, for such a crime is so heinous it cant be tolerated. This is why it is offensive to hear people justify the murderous state of Israel’s wrongs in all sorts of names. The simple thing is that Israel is the source of the problem, without occupation, there should be no need for rockets, full stop!!! We cant continue to be blackmailed by anybody, including Jews, that whenever we speak about their evil acts, we must be called anti-semitic, but they have the god-ordained right to murder, rape and kill innocent children in Palestine.”
I think that one has to conclude that Bongani Masuku has been stating official Cosatu policy. It is an interesting development and much thought should now be given to the implications of Cosatu’s policy with regard to The Jewish Question in SA.
Bongani’s words might just be viewed as bluff and bluster, but Jews have previously made similar mistakes by underestimating such threats and have paid with their lives.
Cosatu will have considerable influence after the next election and are presumably now discussing precisely how they will force some Jews to leave.
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on February 16th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
Sha,
A few mealy-mouthed comments by the MJC is virtual silence in comparison to the hate-filled anti-Jewish, anti-Zionist marches that we see in Cape Town by muslims who are making a political statement in support of Palestinians, who they support just because they are fellow muslims and not because they are “victims.
Similarly the world-wide images of hundreds of thousands of muslims all over the world who celebrated 9/11 and the London bombings. Even London muslims were rejoicing.
The whole Pagad thing in Cape Town was just a drug war. It was muslim agsinst muslim. MJC couldn’t have cared less if muslims hadn’t been involved.
I have many muslim friends and acquaintaces who are decent people, but not one of them has ever had the decency to say that 9/11 was wrong. I assume because they are afraid of what could happen to them if they did.
Michael, I really appreciate your articles. However, I think that Islam is the most intolerant and violent of all politico-religious ideologies.
As an atheist, I must say I have no respect for any ideology/religion that claims that only it’s followers are “God’s chosen”, which all the Abrahamic religions do.
However, I have always had great admiration for what the Jewish people have contributed to civilization in general. At least Judaism doesn’t go around killing people in the name of their relgion and prozelitizing.
As far as Israel goes, I strongly support it’s right to exist. If a country is surrounded by those who wish to destroy it, I feel it has every right to do everything in it’s power to protect itself. If those who wish to destroy Israel get killed when it defends it’s citizens from attack, they have no cause to complain. Actions have consequences.
I don’t regard 9/11 as a “muslim atrocity”, but as an atrocity. I clearly remember Iran (its government) and the Iranian people condemning the attack - this was reported in the media at the time.
There are many links on Internet to these statements made at the time, but Muslims condemning terrorism.
Mike,
The attached article “Sowing antisemitism” by Jonathan Freedland should never have been published in The M&G. It is a personal affront to progressive human rights anti-racist activists like Prof Farid Esack (”Muslims Against Racism”) and Prof Steven Friedman. What, after all, is wrong with anti-semitism if it helps to distance Bad Jews from Israel?
I know that there are a lot of Bad Jews out there. We really should be forced to wear swastikas and magen dovids; the yellow star is old yamulke/hat and is quite unfashionable.
“Liberals rightly recoil from the pressure on Muslims to denounce jihadism or even Islamism. Yet they make the same demand when they suggest Jews are okay unless they are Zionists. The effect is to make Jews’ place in society contingent on their distance from their fellow Jews, in this case, Israelis.” http://www.mg.co.za/article/2009-02-10-sowing-antisemitism
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on February 17th, 2009 at 9:25 am
Jeff - I appreciate the kind words.
Islam like Judaism has it’s good and bad. There are extremists in every group.
Where I think many people make a mistake with Islam is in considering fundamentalists to be extremists.
They are not the same thing. The overwhelming majority believe in the fundamental principles of Islam and a very small percentage are extremists.
If you look at a population of almost 1.5 billion worldwide (almost a quarter of the world’s population) then of course you will be aware of that community. How could it be otherwise?
In using generalisations every time we have an attrocity we do the Muslim community a major disservice.
As I made the point in this article, the local community and indeed Muslim communities worldwide must be judged in isolation. You can never attribute good or bad to an entire community based upon events a million miles away.
There can be little doubt that “The Jewish Question” has now officially arisen in South Africa. It is a question with an illustrious history and has regularly popped up all over the place. And that is why it is so interesting.
In the circumstances, The South African Jewish Board of Deputies should hold a symposium…. “The Jewish Question in South Africa”. It could invite national and international speakers for a different perspective… Profs Finkelstein and Chomsky from The USA, Fatima Hajaig, Bongani Masuku (Cosatu), Ronno Einstein and his Professor from South Africa etc. Even President Ahmadinejad??
I will produce a magen dovid/swastika “T” shirt for the delegates in conjunction with Cosatu’s graphic designers.
It Patrick Craven would prefer to hold the symposium at Cosatu, kosher catering should, of course, be arranged for the more orthodox delegates.
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on February 17th, 2009 at 10:33 am
Since Prof Steven Friedman came to Fatima Hajaig’s defence following the silly media hullaballoo which greeted her awful/appalling anti-semitic comments, will he now kindly do the same for Cosatu’s Bongani Masuku?
It is important that everybody knows precisely where Prof Friedman and Ronnie Kasrils stand. And it would be extremely unfair to leave Bongani in the lurch. After all, he was “just taking orders”??
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on February 17th, 2009 at 10:57 am
Jeff on February 16th, 2009 at 9:57 pm,
“…I think that Islam is the most intolerant and violent of all politico-religious ideologies”. I think you have stepped firmly out of the realm of atheism with this one.
As a matter of interest the doctrine of ‘gods chosen’ is also found in Calvinist teachings used by Afrikaner settler populations and spin-offs of that religiosity today.
Blacklisted dictator,
Why just discuss the Jewish question, what about the rest of the national question. What of other SAn groups experiencing prejudice and pogrom.
Tennis Association (WTA) tour Larry Scott said that the lucrative Dubai tournament risked being struck from the women’s tennis calendar.
Speaking in a telephone interview, he said the WTA would consider “what types of sanctions are going to be deemed to be appropriate in light of what has happened, including whether or not the tournament has a slot on the calendar next year.” Asked if there is a risk that the tournament could be dropped if Pe’er does not get redress, Scott replied: “You could say that, yes..”
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on February 17th, 2009 at 5:47 pm
Frank,
I blamed all three Abrahamic religions for their “God’s chosen” approach. Quite possibly there are others. Calvinism, is merely one form of Protestantism which is a part of Christianity, which is one of the Abrahamic religions.
I suppose anyone who worships a god through their religion must to a large extent think God has chosen that religion and it’s folowers to be chosen.
Mike,
I know there are many decent muslims. “Some of my best friends are muslims”. I make no apology to them for my “Islamophobia”. I find it’s tenets absolutely repulsive.
It escapes me who said,”Good people will do good things, and bad people will do bad things, but it takes religion to make good people do bad things”.
Unfortunately, many good people who are muslim, will not speak out about muslilm atrocities because they belong to the umma. It’s a form of “Islam, right or wrong”.
Israel is surrounded by enemies, and that’s largely because they are Arab (Muslim)states, bent on Israel’s destruction. Jews have suffered enough throughout history. If the Arab states would grant them peace they would not be forced into these wars of self-defence.
Mike,
I wonder whether the ANC/COSATU will actually boycott Israel when Zuma comes to power..
At precisely the same time as Cosatu was trying to stop the unloading of cargo from Israel , South Africa’s largest cargo terminal operator (Transnet) selected NICE’s state-of-the-art digital video surveillance solution to improve security at key ports and ensure compliance with this country’s critical infrastructure regulations. And where are NICE’s HQ? Israel.
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on February 18th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
Mike,
As the various daily shenanigans proceed, particularly in the South African context with regard to Israel, her detractors and the wider Middle East, I reflect on the following…
In 1990, a year after the fatwa, Salman Rushdie wrote: ‘I feel as if I have been plunged, like Alice, into a world beyond the looking glass, where nonsense is the only available sense. And I wonder if I’ll ever be able to climb back through.’
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on February 18th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
Jeff,
I can understand the killing/murdering of civilians incl. babies in Gaza by the IDF. But please explain why chickens and cows were also deliberately killed, why did tanks deliberately destroy agricultural “tunnels” (hothouses with plastic sheeting, not glass)?
Well, I guess the Palestinians should be very grateful the IDF did not plough salt into the ground, like the ancient Romans did after they conquered the Carthaginians.
Jeff,
Sure. I take the point about Calvinism being part of the Abrahamic religions. I was just pointing out that the same phenomenon is found close to home.
Hi Frank,
I might be mistaken, but I don’t know of any Calvinists lately who use religious intolerance and violence to try and destroy a nation just because they think Jews are apes monkeys, pigs and dogs. The Arab countries surrounding Israel, want to destroy it because its citizens are Jews. These Arabs can’t be anti-semitic in a nationalist sense as they are Semites themselves. They are anti-semitic only in the sense that they hate Jews. I can only assume because of some deep-seated inferiority complex.(Possibly well deserved).
I really have no time for anti-semites of any ilk. People should accept responsibility for their own shortcomings and stop seeking innocent scapegoats. It’s bloody tragic in more than one sense.
It is time for me to speak unto The Jews of Johannesburg about something which pains me greatly. It is the wide-spread hatred of My People which, in the modern era has been called antisemitism. On the other hand, Prof Farid Esack uses the words ” Jewish hatred” and I see no reason why our different terms are not inter-changeable because they meaneth the same thing. For verily if a man is anti The Semite is he not truly hating The Jew? I am not talking semantics but common sense.
In recent days, there has been much talk of antisemitism. Of course, I refer to The Deputy Foreign Minister’s unfortunate words which led me, and one or two of my disciples, using modern technology to communicate our displeasure. We chose the fax machine. Although there is none on Table Mountain, I took the lift down to the city where such technology resides. And, of course, as is now well-known, I faxed Fatima. This fax was important and was widely reported throughout our fair media.
I have also been receiving emails, at my office on sea level, alleging that Cosatu is antisemitic. Whether it is, or isn’t, isn’t relevant at the moment. I was not at the demonstration in Raedene led by Ronno Einstein so I cannot comment on whether comparing Jews to Nazis is actually antisemitic. This debate is a can of worms and I tell The Jews in Johannesburg that I have too much dignity to enter into its dirty recriminations.
It is my belief, however, that The Jews of Johannesburg are creating antisemitism by not condemning The Israelites. Surely The South African Zionist Federation should speak out against the Israelites war on The Hamasites? Isn’t that what a Zionist federation is obligated to do in post-apartheid South Africa?
Let me remind The Pharisees that the high walls at Beyachad do not make them safe. I prefer to walk bare foot on the sand at Sea Point in the company of my disciples. We are not scared. Sometimes I even paddle in the sea although I do admit that I have never walked upon the water as it is usually too rough.
Here endeth my sermon on Antisemitism / Jewish Hatred.
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on February 23rd, 2009 at 9:46 pm
I don’t consider myself to be anti-Semitic. I am passionately anti-religion, whether it’s Christianity, Islam, Judaism or any of a vast number of other belief systems.
I condemn Israel’s actions because it is a human tragedy, not only for the Palestinians but also for Israelis. I condemn the building of that wall because it has detrimental effects on people’s lives. I support the plight of the Palestinians because they too have the right to live in a land of their own, in peace.
Just a question, because I’d genuinely like to know - Let’s say the Palestinians get their own country and tensions in the Middle East start to ease, what, if anything, happens with Jerusalem?
Hi BLACKLISTED DICTATOR,
Sorry, but I disagree with you. In the case of Israel, I think if you are surrounded by a huge majority who want to destroy your existence, then you’d better hit them good and hard, because they are not going to listen to reason. They hate Jews, especially Israeli Jews full stop.
The jihadist who abound in the middle east have the destruction of Israel as their primary objective. They have no intention of settling for anything less.
Remember that for muslims any form of deceit is allowed in a war against Jews and infidels.
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A few additional facts to put in perspective the dangerously inflammatory, and bigoted, nature of the COSATU march:
A flag of Israel sporting a swastika in place of the Magen David was burned and stomped on by the crowd. This took place outside a synagogue and a Jewish charitable institution.
Cosatu spokesman Bongani Masuku said: “We want to convey a message to the Jews in SA that our 1.9-million workers who are affiliated to Cosatu are fully behind the people of Palestine. Any business owned by Israel supporters will be a target of workers in South Africa.”
Masuku also posted a threatening and abusive comment on the It’s Almost Supernatural blogsite, part of which read: “Every Zionist must be made to drink the bitter medicine they are feeding our brothers and sisters in Palestine. We must target them, expose them and do all that is needed to subject them to perpetual suffering until they withdraw from the land of others”.
This is raw incitement against the Jewish community, and also for that matter against the many Christian supporters of Israel who are proud to call themselves Zionists. Doesn’t South Africa have enough problems without foreign conflicts being introduced on our streets?
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