Think of a number, add the CIA then divide that answer by two, then multiply your answer by MI5, take away the number you started with and your answer is Thursday.
FFS, I’ve heard some cock and bull stories about why the Scorpions have to be disbanded along the way but the Kikinegate revelations yesterday are going to take some beating. I wish I had been at the Umhlazi Hearing at the Indoor Sports Complex. I could have had a field day.
“The reason the Scorpions have to close Mr Commissioner is due to the fact that Ed Darwin, the genius who pretended to die in a canoeing accident, has been holing up in Josef Fritzl’s cellar which caused Georgia to invade South Ossetia where they discovered Lord Lucan whose great grandfather is related to an advocate who works for the Scorpions.”
“Mr Trapido, are you insane?!”
“Well he started it” (pointing to Kikine).
Dear oh dear oh dear.
Why would anyone want to close down one of South Africa’s top crime fighting units?
Because they were political, tied to past regimes, or unfairly after the ANC top guys? Forget about it. The easiest way to solve that is to bring in new staff where necessary and carry on. In terms of costs, bridging the gap between the police and Scorpions and political bias there is nothing that can’t be sorted out by meeting with the guys and agreeing to the way forward.
The reason why the Scorpions have to go is because they are dealing with certain cases that need to be closed down before the results of their investigations become public knowledge. That is one aspect of the Scorpions that cannot be resolved by negotiation because nobody is going to tell the Scorpions you can carry on if you close down certain cases. That would be confirmation of where the real problems lie.
No, this requires those cases being handed over to suitable parties in appropriate units, not the Scorpions, who can then decline to investigate and/or prosecute and deep six the files.
That is why you can stand on your heads and scream all you like. The Scorpions will have to go.
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117 Responses to “Reason for Scorpions closure is obvious”
Who cares any longer? Even when you pile shit on shit it still remains shit and smells like it. Whatever the hearing, the outcome has been decided to cover the shit. Pity, it will remain smelly for a long time. Luckily we know the shit guys even if they never confess. They too will remain smelly.
Umlazi Indoor Sports Complex sounds like a lot of fun. Might hire it out for my son’s barmitzvah next year. Please ask Cosatu if they will provide entertainment. Could you find out their rates and see if you can get a discount ? Probably cheaper than Johnny Clegg.
“The hearings earlier kicked off with singing and toyi-toying amid a heavy police presence. A crowd of about 80 Congress of South African Trade Unions (Cosatu) supporters had gathered outside the building before entering the complex singing…
Many in the crowd wore shirts bearing logos of Cosatu’s various member unions, while some wore shirts in support of African National Congress president Jacob Zuma.
At one stage the crowd broke into Zuma’s trademark Umshini Wami song, taunting local Democratic Alliance (DA) supporters who had also turned up for the hearing.”
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on August 12th, 2008 at 11:13 pm
Shakespeare said it so well “…methinks the lady (substitute whoever is shouting the loudest)doth protest too much.”
Once again you’ve put it in a nutshell Traps - sad,and very very worrying, but so true
The Scorpions have “mind” machines, and “earthquake” machines. They were responsible for the Tunguska disaster. They are members of the ultra-secret “Incriminati”.
Your answer is totally wrong! The correct answer is not Thursday,your mistake was not changing the original number before subtracting it. The correct answer will give you the depth of the contents in the septic tank. Please take more care.
It is a sad day when a top crime fighting unit is disbanded as organised crime/corruption is indivisible from politics and prominent people.
Crime is bigger than the people or good governance.
Crime does pay in SA, as long as it is on the scale of grand larceny you are safe. If it is all done by the leaders it is just sound economic policy.
Trapzuman,
Umlazi Indoor Scorpions is a dead ringer for the TRC. Tutu should be leading the inquiry.
The Scorpions should ask Tutu for forgiveness. Especially as they are linked to the CIA and M15. The US and UK amabassadors should be summoned to give evidence. And if they are guilty SA must cut diplomatic relations with these foreign spies. I bet my bottom sheckel that Mossad have also been up to no good.
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on August 13th, 2008 at 9:11 am
Yep, cant wait for next years Karaoke parliament!!!! Bring em on JZ. Just luv ya!!! And here is a tip. Uniform for all female public servants—- THE KANGA.
ARE YOUR SURPRISED ?
This is electioneering by a tadpole.
Wait until the Old Man and his army start blaming every country, Apartheid, opposition parties, for SA’s woes of non-delivery, theft by bureaucrats and courts tied up in polotico’s fights.
Whites and Apartheid are to blame for all the corruption and price fixing. Crime and breakdown of essential services due to their neglect. Not to forget the makwere taking jobs.
Not that the shack township inhabitants know who MI5. CIA are. The rest can be blamed and accepted as truth.
Old,female,paleface on August 13th, 2008 at 9:28 am
To Blacklisted Dictator
Well it was in part down to the CIA, M15, and Mossad, but they were all acting at the behest of the Secretive elders of Zion. you know, Peres, Dershovitz, Friedman, Rothschilds etc etc.
Its a conspiracy to control the vast resources of South Africa and to besmirch the good name of our pious ANC comrades .
[…] What is happening to our country? Our health minister is a superstitious drunkard. Our future president is a criminal. The Scorpions are being shut down for being too effective. […]
I think they left out MOSSAD. I’m sure they must have had a hand in running to Scorpions in order to influence our government’s policy in the middle east.
Traps, the name of the place is not Umhlazi, it’s Umlazi. You misspell my hometown one more time and I’ll have to brand you a counter-revolutionary and take the necessary steps to elliminate you. Interesting point, the Umlazi Indoor Sports Centre is a stone’s throw away from the infamous T-section (e-Seventeen) where the attacks on women wearing trousers occurred. And it’s right along the disputed Mangosuthu Highway. But I digress.
I think it would be a good idea for one of the ANC bigwigs to write a blog on Thought Leader, so that we could have a chance to debate the issue with the people in power. I wonder if any of them EVER listen to what the people have to say about the disbandment of the Scorpions. I think another issue which might give them the upper hand is the fact that during these public hearings, the ANC are able to mobilise their supporters to go to the venues in numbers, while those who are pro-Scorpions are not able to do the same. Or maybe the rest of us are not as passionate about the Scorpions as the ANC is as passionate about Msholozi. The effect is that, during these hearings, it seems as if the majority support the disbandment, because they are more numerous, or they sing louder. It’s the same thing which marred the Million Man March organized by Desmond Dube. Everyone thougth it was a great idea, but few were willing to actually take the time to join the march (myself included). If we could use a platform such as this (Thought Leader) and get people to actually go to these hearings in numbers, people who won’t be intimidated by those stooges with the wooden guns, maybe, just maybe, our voices might be heard. But as long as we keep on shouting while sitting on our sofas and desk chairs, we can even pull our hair out, it won’t make a difference. The ANC has the “masses” on their side, and they will use them to full effect. Unless those of us who are actually sane pool our efforts as well, we won’t succeed.
It is a good thing. The Scorpions must be closed.
They undermine the political process in SA and destabilize the government with their idiotic investigations into corruption and bribery.
20 million sheeple don’t care what you say about their leaders because they idolize them! They can do no wrong. The 1% of the populous that know and care are outnumbered and seen to be working with the colonial masters. Point in fact here we have a direct link to the puppet musters with the Scorpions and MI6 working together.
Vote you sheeple vote your freedoms away vote your future away because you are too indoctrinated to learn to closed minded see how your everyday lives are getting worse by the day!
But blame the politicians never they freed us they are gods.
The Zuma crowd is supporting the disbandment of the elite crime fighting unit based on rowdy assumptions and inconclusive information.
Whether we like it or not they are a thing of the past the Scorpions. Once something tends to be foul, you fix it not disband it.
So if many ANC politicians are corrupt should they not be investigated? I think not, however making them a prime focus exclusively is what I am against.
The mobilization of people to push forward a particular agenda is what I am completely against. People should allow themselves to be convinced into looking at both sides of the coin.
I am however scared of ANC resolutions being fast-tracked in government. Essentially what the ANC is doing is making its party parliament in some sense and pushing through party decisions in parliament for the sake of legalese and lawful conduct.
The Scorpions are gone, that is a done deal. But the ANC has become dictatorial in recent times more than ever. And this will cause an immense loss of majority stake and support for the ANC as evidenced in Khutsong, Matatiele, Primrose informal settlements et.al
What a disaster the ANC is creating. What a sham they are bringing to its legacy
Utterances voiced by him were “Why have the Scorpions not investigated [chemical warfare expert] Wouter Basson and the CIA who have created this Aids? The Scorpions are working for MI5 and the CIA and not for South Africa,”
In that case they are also probably responsible for the tsunami that hit Asia, the earthquakes in Pakistan, Smith’s boys going down to England on Monday, SA’s medal drought at the Olympics. Watch out Roswell ‘s next.
It would be hilarious weren’t it not contemptible.
Postponement beats prohibition every time. JZ and WM have shown us how to keep putting off the obvious, illegal driving licences don’t stop people rising to positions of power, so why bury the Scorpions? Clever people use the law to their own advantage; my worry now is that post-Scorpions the only justice will be in the hands of vigilantes - which would have already solved the JZ conundrum! The ANC of all people should know what it’s like to be deprived of power, the frustration and then the revenge, maybe the baddies amongst them haven’t thought this through properly. Maybe their time is yet to come and “justice” will be too late to serve them?
I would not like to suggest anything unlawful or anything, but I wonder whether there is a means to make public the list of all cases that the DSO hands over to the new unit. Possibly PAIA? Is it too late to make the record of the handover a part of the legislation?
Maybe we should call the new unit the “black hole”.
Thinking about recent trends in the practice of law, is there any lawful means to delay the passage of the legislation until next year? Any other constitutional challenges?
Also, your article revives my question about the significance of June. Why was everyone adamant that June was to be the deadline?
“If everyone is getting amnesty in order to prevent anarchy in any case, then we don’t need the scorpions anyway.”
Trapzuman, you got to admit Lisa’s made a good point.
One minute you want amnesty, the next you want the Scorpions. Are you inconsistent or just suffering from a split intellectual disorder? Sometimes I worry that if it is the latter then it might actually be impossible to cure.
Whatever, it is, it does seem infectious.
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on August 13th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
..since everyone is having a laugh at our Proudly South African Government..I am going to join in and start wearing my proudly South Effrican T shirt…”Dont Steal…The Government Hates competition”
amused & disillusioned on August 13th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
My oath! To what mephytic abyss do we sink? Just as when the Nats (in the 1920s or 30s) had one of their bouts of antisemitism and brandished ‘The Protocols of Zion’ as proof of something or other that suited their evil purpose.
To Michael:
In light of the following: “The question is why? There is nothing you can’t remedy by switching staff. Why would you want to close the unit?”
The manner in which all this is done really leaves much questioning. It has been years that the ANC has been discussing “re-integrating” the Scorpions into the SAPS. This (disbandment, as it is now known) has been hovering along the horizon for quite some years now.
What is disturbing though is the pragmaticality of this disbandment. Who is going to fork out more money into the establishment of a new unit- uniforms, new emblems, logos, new offices, cars, equipment etc?
The salary issue: How is it going to be addressed? Who will be responsible for this new groups’ management? Where are they going to find willing, skilled and experienced managers to be part of this “bigger, better, unbiased and more effective” unit?
Which specialist police will join this new unit who will have the same amount of education, skills, technicality etc? How will this “incorporation” be facilitated? Will the facilitation be run by independent, credible and specialist authoritarians or specialists?
In real terms, how much is the NPA (DSO) makeover into the Directorate of Priority Crime going to cost South Africans versus restructuring and re-focusing the NPA. Clearly, the latter option is more suitable, feasible and viable.
So why then continue to disband? Clearly this is beyond reason. I am being frightened by the lack of separation of powers between the ruling party and government. The next moment there will be an ANC conference on the funding of government departments.
With Cosatu spear-heading the drafts –of which the populace will later comment, through public hearings as is the case with the Scorpions, before bills are put into law. Expressly telling parliament what to do. South Africans cannot allow such an ungovernable situation. Parliament will simply be a token for the ANC, it will be the ANC who sets laws not parliament anymore! Especially if it continues to strive on majority joint sitting.
Next we will be having referendums on who should become the Minister of Finance. OH! may the good Lord help us, let it not be the likes of Cosatu, ANC-YL or the SACP.
The plan apparently is to incorporate the remains of the DSO into the SAPS as a section known as the ‘Directorate For Priority Crime Investigation’.
They will be under the police commissioner who is politically appointed. The present PC is none other than Jackie Selebi (head of the South African mafia). Will there ever be an ivestigation against an ANC politician? I doubt it!
“…That is why you can stand on your heads and scream all you like. The Scorpions will have to go.”
You’re dead right Traps, people can go and jump, Scorpions are on their way to the door.
People shouldn’t act as if they know Scorpions for (only) doing supreme effort more than any other crime fighting component. The unit was doing an excellent job just like the SAPS, but the different was that, SAPS had and still has respect of human rights, and take regard of ‘alleged’ or whoever has been accused of committing crime. When they arrest such person/s, they don’t drag along media and paparazzi like the Scorpions do, they don’t leak the information to the public or media like the Scorpions do.
Fighting organised crime is not the reason for disbandment of Scorpions but the style of investigation, prosecution and accountability, is the motive behind the disbandment of that unit. The proposed unit will still continue fighting organised crime but this time, under the eagle eye of the Commissioner/ Minister of Safety and Security.
People should just get over it, there was no way we (SA) could have kept or allowed an FBI movie styled unit, which is bad-mannered and has power unto itself. And took little or no regard of advices and warnings it was receiving from those who brought it to existence.
By the way, this unit was set by the ANC (it has the majority to approve or disapprove any proposal in parliament) and it’ll be dispersed by the same party when it sees fit, whether there’s clamour or not.
Siphiwo Qangani with kangaroos on August 13th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
The reason for the disbanding of scorpions is obvious and simple. Never bite the hand that feeds you. It was the ANC that so it fit to create the scorpions in the first place. The scorpions went after ANC leaders and let crime kingpins like Agliotti of the hook. It follows that the ANC would use their power to disband scorpions.
This is obvious. Politics is about power. If you thought that politics was only about good principles and values (democracy, fight against crime etc). Wake up and smell the coffee !!! Politicians do not aspire to be bishops, popes, imams, Dalai Lama etc. They want power. Every now and then there are exceptions- Mandela, Gandhi etc
Take two tablespoons of ignorance, add one measure of indoctrination, a handfull of hero worship a cup of intolerance and a pinch of racism and you have a recipe for the utter garbage that has been diched up at these public hearings. Wild allegations are made without even a pretence at of factual basis, venom and vituperations spewed forth in spades, and all because the Scorpions are the last obstacle that stands in the was of the ascention of their beloved Msholozi. Too many people have invested too much time and capital in the man, and they are determined to get their payback, whatever the cost to the country and the institutions of democracy. As they say in Parys, c’est la fokkin vie.
Never before have so many done so little for so long. Ja Traps when the Scorpions are disbanded perhaps the ANC will then decide to transfer all “surplus” staff to Submarine or Frigate duty.
Sorry Michael,
You ask too many questions,you should know by
now that it is impolite to differ from the elected
government,that enjoys almost unprecedented
support.Are you really trying to tell us that
the majority can be wrong?
Shame on you they were after elected in a democratic election.
The debate is pointless, none of us have any influence and it would not matter if there were 5 million petitions from the public the outcome will remain the same.
We are nothing more than a one party state. The government have to toe the party line and the opposition can stand on their heads and whistle dixie because their opinion means squat.
What happened to that straight-talk you and many of your uncritical readers were under the illusion you had (when the discussion was on Zimbabwe, for instance)? Are you so afraid of litigation - as the events surrounding the disgraced David Bullard showed - that all you can now say is something as meek as:
“The reason why the Scorpions have to go is because they are dealing with certain cases that need to be closed down before the results of their investigations become public knowledge”.
Are you afraid of saying it out loud that the buffoon’s self-interests (of, inter alia, ascending to the highest office in the land) are at the centre of the call for the dissolution of the Directorate of Special Operations (Scorpions)? No wonder even your loudest Cheerleaders on Thought Leader (Lyndall Beddy) has long sulkingly repudiated you; you have really become an ANC apologist.
Only Lord knows what happened to that self-styled patriotic and humanitarian-mettled Trapido who said all he thought needed to be said about Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe. Have the rules of engagement suddenly changed when the ANC is in the spotlight, Trapido?
Anyway, good luck on your quest for a symbiotic relationship with the new ANC!
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on August 14th, 2008 at 1:01 am
NZS
What can be straighter than saying the real reason behind closing the Scorpions is that the ANC (both factions I’m afraid)are afraid of all their mismanagement and corruption coming out? Unless of course you believe that calling the closing down of the Scorpions to cover up crimes is an apology.
That along with the judiciary, police and every other part of our criminal justice system is under attack from the ANC’s factionalism.
Read my first post on amnesty entiled “Prosecute Zuma on principle you must be joking” it’s about 7 months old.
BL - Again the question : “one minute you want amnesty the next you want the Scorpions?
Amnesty to preserve our criminal justice systems - bollocks?
Amnesty to preserve the criminal justice system is obviously crap. It is like §4%&ing for virginity - as we used to say in our high school days.
It is more than odd that you argue that amnesty upholds the criminal justice system - when in fact it lets a few of the worst but most powerful thieves off the hook in the name of “stability”. Basic tenets of law are ignored such as: all are equal before the law, everyone has a right to be heard, due process, the rule of law and the list goes on. That you cannot see that it actually erodes the very basis of the criminal justice system, is beyond me.
I understood your argument in response to my criticm that we don’t need the Scorpions if we have amnesty to be - not ALL the bad guys should get amnesty, so we still need the scorpions. That you can’t see how ludicrous that is, boggles the mind. Of course not ALL get amnesty - but the “big fish” - exactly the ones that should be exposed by the Scorpions are the ones who you would rescue with amnesty. This means that, in fact, we don’t need the Scorpoins, unless they are only to pursue the “little fish” or some of the “mid sized fish”. But then, again, that would mean a stingless Scorpion and we would not need it.
(1) I assume that as a criminal attorney you might believe that a criminal justice system should exist.
(2) Giving amnesty to a political elite would undermine the criminal justice system. It would say ” If you run the country you don’t have to follow the laws of the country. If you do get caught, don’t worry, because you can give yourself amnesty.”
(3) The Scorpions are annoying the political elite because they want to hold them accountable for crimes like fraud.
(4) If the Scorpions investigate and bring the political elite into the courts, your response would be” Don’t make such a big deal about the crimes of the political elite. They deserve amnesty.”
(5) As a result, I have to conclude that your logic must be as follows..”Let’s keep the Scorpions but only on the basis that they don’t investigate crimes committed by the political elite.” In these circumstances there’s no point The Scorpions investigating such crimes, because you believe that the perpetrators should receive amnesty.
(6) What you seem to want therefore is Scorpions but without the sting to hurt the political elite. Why not go the whole hog and disband The Scorpions? This, after all is precisely what the political elite want and there will be no need to go through the whole rigmarole of giving amnesty.
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on August 14th, 2008 at 10:31 am
These are the ways of all African Governments; first, find ways to have absolute power for the elite. Then, throw away accountability and transparency. Lastly stay in power against the will of the people, for as long as you can. Watch this space…
With good schools like Zim, Sudan – very little time to name the remaining 51 – there is no student that can’t pass.
Please South Africans, don’t let them take your beloved country from you. Fight while you still can because after this bullying only God knows what will come next.
WARNING: they are making their beds so that they can “rest in peace”.
Baby, we are currently on the same wavelength….is it only us? I am starting to feel like everyone has gone meshugah. At least we have got each other…..
What really cracks me up about Trapzuman is that he is a “criminal” attorney. It knodov takes the irony to a higher level and I start thinking, yes, perhaps there really is a God up there because Trapzuman’s career choice is just too perfect.
siyabonga ntshingila on August 14th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
BL - 1. I believe a strong criminal justice system should exist rather than a vehicle for 2 factions to square off. As confirmed today it’s such a disaster that even the president has conceded it’s imploding. Too many politicians using the Scorpions to hunt the Police and vice versa in terms of political agendas. Zuma vs Selebi. Billions on inquiries etc everything but crime.
2. Giving amnesty would say nothing other than as a result of the factionalism in the ruling party we have effectively destroyed our criminal justice system, our economy is under threat, we have pressing issues like energy, brain drain, crime etc A political solution has to be found because the 2 factions are not adult enough to resolve their differences so we have to find a way or destroy our country(On Mbeki’s watch NZS. While you are confirming that we must see justice can you tell me why the criminal justice system was destroyed on your faction’s watch. Some of us would like all criminals prosecuted not just dancing feet)
3. The Scorpions are annoying the elite? What’s your point? Amnesty means I know there is wrongdoing. The criminal justice system and the country is going down the toilet in an attempt to cover that up. INSTEAD OF destroying the criminal justice system, the Scorpions and the country find a political solution.
4. For future discourse don’t put down what you think my my response would be. Just put yours. You start by saying “you would say” and write a thesis contradicting what you say I would say.
5. As a result of what you have to conclude what?
6. What I seem to want? Based upon?
7. This country is losing the fight against crime. Not the glamour Zuma trial, the man in the street. Black South Africans by far the biggest victims. Our focus is on the squabbles between two factions. Pikoli, Ginwala, Selebi, Zuma and on and on and on.
What is your suggestion for taking the criminal justice system’s (or what’s left of it) focus off that and onto fighting crime?
Using words like “undermines the criminal justice system” in a vacuum, doesn’t put police on the beat,prosecutors in court nor magistrates on the bench.
How do you propose getting the billions we are spending on the 2 faction fight into the real area of concern “crime” on the ground. As it effects us in our homes.
Q:”What is your suggestion for taking the criminal justice system’s (or what’s left of it) focus off that and onto fighting crime?”
A: The case against Zuma should be viewed “fighting crime”, although it MUST be emphasized that he is 100% innocent until proven guilty. If the ANC hadn’t signed the arms deal, SA would be 30 billions richer. How many schools, hospitals and police officers could 30 billion pay for?
You write that the Zuma trial is a “glamour trial”. Surely, that is because Zuma has brought his buddies along to sing and dance? There is nothing inherently glamorous about the trial. Zuma is not Naomi Campbell. Or Paris Hilton.
Giving amnesty to Zuma ( he, and not Mbeki, is the one being prosecuted) will certainly result in him becoming the SA President in 2009.
The Scorpion’s job is not to find a “political solution” but to investigate crime. The higher the profile of the crime, the more they should investigate it . Crime that is committed by the political elite is far more serious than the stealing of cheese or bread from a supermarket by a poor person. You visit the courts and you should be aware of this.
To conclude.. virtually everyone who has commented on this blog think that you are barking up the wrong tree. I also think that you are barking mad. Your readers are the jury and I will leave it up to them to decide on the merits of our respective arguments.
BL - While I’m waiting for your answer to the questions just a couple of reminders.
Just to put the insults into perspective :
When BL is wrong he starts insulting people. He is unfortunately not big enough to admit defeat. Ever.
Must be a study for some doctor there.
Follow the thread on the Soviet Union as part of Europe thread.
To this day he will rather bluster than admit he is wrong. And he was horribly wrong. That sums up the pattern of debate.
His best argument is to bring in others and use their comments to justify….something usually nothing to do with the issue.
In terms of Freedom of Speech he ranted and raved about the need for total freedom and South Africa needing to fight for it. If you go to his definition of the limitations on free speech in the thread designed for it, you’ll find his idea is for a system which in reality is far more draconian than the “freedom of speech system he condemns” A system (Britain) in which Muslim clerics are deported, detained without charge and wire tapping phones of politicians has become so bad it’s best to visit your mate and hope they aren’t using long distance mikes.
When it came to Mandela he was asked why his views are that way by NZS - Other than 1 line I’ve never seen an answer.
Each time we get the show boating the insults and all the rest.
But he has taught me enormously. My shell is thickening by the day :
But I will be asking for answers to my questions from now on :
1. What is your suggestion for solving the crime instead of our 2 factions using the country and criminal justice system as a vehicle for their own ends?
2. Is that your answer on amnesty and the Scorpions ie if you have amnesty you can’t have the Scorpions because they annoy the elite?
Please remember not to conclude anything for others because you tend to start debating for hours on what you say they say.
MADODA
“Never bite the hand that feeds you. It was the ANC that so it fit to create the scorpions in the first place.”
Poor ZUMA will have his hands BITTEN right off if he does not give, give, give.
XOLANI
“What is disturbing though is the pragmaticality of this disbandment. Who is going to fork out more money into the establishment of a new unit- uniforms, new emblems, logos, new offices, cars, equipment etc?”
NOT to worry - it can be taken off the budget, paid for by taxpayers, from the money intended for poor people who can wait their turn in the very long queue for revenue.
They will vote for ANC until the next coming or coup d’etat by Umkonto and rabble rousers.
“Which specialist police will join this new unit who will have the same amount of education, skills, technicality etc? How will this “incorporation” be facilitated? Will the facilitation be run by independent, credible and specialist authoritarians or specialists?”
Yes it will be your worst fears.
REPEAT - OH! may the good Lord help us, let it not be the likes of Cosatu, ANC-YL or the SACP. But it will be so until the electorate get wise or the next coming. whatever!
“The next moment there will be an ANC conference on the funding of government departments.”
YES all those in the care of Vavi and Company. ANCYL and all the anthem singers.
”
OH! may the good Lord help us, let it not be the likes of Cosatu, ANCYL or the botjies in in all the
other Zuma organisations. ”
Wag Maar as the boere say.
“Next we will be having referendums on who should become the Minister of Finance.”
NO need to - the Shaik Bros and all the pupeteers financing Zuma -
are already jostling for the purse strings.
Old,female,paleface on August 14th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
Lisa,
Sweetheart, we are on the same wave-length! Yes, we have got each other.
Although at this precise moment, I may not be physically available to you, I am cetainly intellectually and emotionally supportive of your ideas.
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on August 14th, 2008 at 1:03 pm
Lisa,
Please don’t fall for Trapzuman’s analysis re me. Every so often he desperately starts trying to win unwinnable arguments. In his heart of hearts he knows that he has lost the battles but he just can’t sign the treaties acknowledging his defeats.
Re “insulting people” …I only label people as “barking mad” if they are actually “barking mad”. Unfortunately, Trapzuman has fallen into that category. In his editorial he raises the question..
“Mr Trapido, are you insane?!”
Is it a character failing that I respond, loudly and clearly “Yes! You are!!” ??
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on August 14th, 2008 at 1:17 pm
Sorry your answer doesn’t answer the question : Zuma is one case. Yet that case together with all the other offshoots is sucking billions upon billions of our crime fighting money out of the criminal justice system. A good example would be the Scorpions and Organised Crime at each others throats. If you had any idea of the number of brilliant policemen and prosecutors that have been tied up to fight over this case and its offshoots you’d be sick. In terms of the arms deal I have made the exact same argument. But it is sunken cost. What do we do now? It’s no good saying we’ve lost billions so just carry on wasting our resources having a faction fight.. We need a solution to stop the nonsense and focus on the crime that effects all of us. What is your solution to that - how do you get them to redeploy resources?
If you say no amnesty that is fine. What is your suggestion to get our resources back on track? Continue with this? Read today’s Star and weep at what has been done to our system. Up until now we are sticking to principles by the way.
Zuma’s trial is high profile. His followers are making disgusting inflammatory suggestions which are going to destroy the country he hopes to lead. His handling of the press and the state organs is a disgrace. He is compromising the very systems he will need to run this country. Mbeki has allowed the criminal justice system to disentegrate.
The ANC are the choice of the overwhelming majority of our people - How do you stop this carrying on? If you don’t like my suggestions of using the opposition parties to broker a deal what do you suggest?
Allow this destruction of our country to continue?
A good point on the top needing to be seen to be punished. Unfortunately this is not America where you can say we nabbed the police chief so people can see what happens. Crime and politics is interlinked and we need to have a country left while this is going on. I visit the courts and can see the effect it is having on my brave colleagues who prosecute as well as our police. They are torn apart by govt. indecision.
During xenophobia residents were complaining the police would not deport illegals. I asked them why. They said they were ordered to stop deporting illegals. That is when the population of exiles exploded.
I”ll ignore the last sentence. Your theory on who decides what’s right and wrong is pathetic. If 10 people agree on something does that make it right? Sums up how you work out the difference between wrong and right.
Please let me have your solution to fixing up the criminal justice system. Calling the Zuma trial fighting crime is basic to the point of non-existent. What about the millions of crimes that are going unpunished while our focus is elsewhere?
The scorpions will go. Their work will be forgotten and life can go on. As long as corruption is not as blatant in future not much needs to change. If JZ can beat the rap then amnesty need not be raised.
I agree with BL. If for the sake of Peace over Justice amnesty needs to be granted for those “Worthy Elite” why bother investigating in the first place?
Lisa is also right. What good is a stingless scorpion?
Traps, you seem more concerned about the preservation of ANC unity and healing the factions, spending the saved billions on the fight against crime and other good things indicating that the end justifies the means and if political and judicial expediency bring all this about it is a worthy outcome.
Should we not bite a bullet now? Let the factions have a free for all, let the implosion take place, let sides be chosen now. A rift may not be the worst solution in the long term,it would be interesting to be able to vote ANC or BNC.
The present ducking and diving is to spare individuals from consequences, will it really heal the factions? I doubt it!
The fallout is inevitable, let it happen now rather than in 18 months time.
Why should reasonable people bend all moral, ethical and judicial boundaries to protect a corrupt elite? This weakness will be exploited, take a kick to the gonads now rather than lose them so we can sing suprano in the ANC/JZ/TM support choir.
Peace is not more important than justice and good governance.
Trapzuman,
Whilst you are “Trapzuman” everybody who reads this blog will know that
you have a political agenda. You are a Zuman! As a result, your concerns about “fighting crime” will be taken with a pinch of salt.
I am not a “criminal” attorney so I don’t, thank God, have your insights into how the “criminal justice system should be fixed up”. As I result, I will keep shtumm. You have floored me. It was a killer punch and I am reeling.
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on August 14th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
BL wrote :
Lisa,
Please don’t fall for Trapzuman’s analysis re me. Every so often he desperately starts trying to win unwinnable arguments. In his heart of hearts he knows that he has lost the battles but he just can’t sign the treaties acknowledging his defeats.
Re “insulting people” …I only label people as “barking mad” if they are actually “barking mad”. Unfortunately, Trapzuman has fallen into that category. In his editorial he raises the question..
“Mr Trapido, are you insane?!”
Is it a character failing that I respond, loudly and clearly “Yes! You are!!” ??
(I’ve bumped that up guys)
BL
Are you really stooping to take lines out of the middle of posts to try and prove a point ?. A line which formed part of a joke nogal without putting it into any context.
I see you are on about your brilliance at winning arguments - top stuff :
1. Please tell us why the Soviet Union was not part of Europe?
2. Please explain why the draconian system you are suggesting for free speech is far better than the a system which is streets ahead of it when it comes to freedom of speech?
3. Please tell us how to restore our criminal justice system so that the majority of our assets are deployed to fight crime not sort out a faction fight. (Zuma trial is fighting crime?) Besides that eg the 18 000 untraceable murders they can’t find on the system right now. They can tell you where Mbeki had breakfast in 2000 but not where 18 000 murder files have gone. How do we get the focus right?
The arms deal money? Be serious…that was a joke right?
Try and answer one question. I got home early from two days of trial and I’m dying to see the master at work.
Trapzuman,
Whilst you are “Trapzuman” everybody who reads this blog will know that you have a political agenda. You are a Zuman! As a result, your concerns about “fighting crime” will be taken with a pinch of salt.
I am not a “criminal” attorney so I don’t, thank God, have your insights into how the “criminal justice system should be fixed up”. As I result, I will keep shtumm. You have floored me. It was a killer punch and I am reeling.
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on August 14th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
BL
Firstly as a regular reader and as a buddy (yes folks I consider BL a mate) you should know that I have given my readers a written undertaking on site which I repeat here :
I will never, not now, tommorow, in the future or in an afterlife EVER consider politics as a career. In addition I derive only ridicule as some genius at court did, if I say I support the ANC. That I do is common knowledge but that I am scathing in my criticizm is also common knowledge.
As for fixing up the criminal justice system my views are as relevant as everyone else’s.
All I ask is that guys give their views as well - I will never ridicule you for your views.
In addition I noticed on my rounds that Lyndall, Lisa and 1 other said my topics were being repeated over and
over. There is definitely merit in this. That is why I’m going to deal with the topic on the day and not deal with
outside topics being brought in.
Today I’m dealing with sport. The rest of you are more than welcome to deal with all the other aspects.
I was excited about watching the Barnnet “Barney Barnato” Isaacs flick on Sunday. Talking about the founding fathers of the geopolitical entity called South Africa, John X. Merriman after his many fallouts with Rhodes and other Randlords, amply summed up the present situation when he said, “Woe unto the law whose Princes are thieves”.
This morning I saw a picture of someone holding a placard reading ‘Free Zimbabwe Now’ , Strange that , I thought Zimbabwe had been freed about 30 years ago ???? Zimbabwe is free , free to be pillaged and plundered by those that want to ,just like here . Who will stop this decadence, graft ,lust , sloth …? NOT THE SCORPIONS , yay lets all turn to crime.
“Giving amnesty would say nothing other than as a result of the factionalism in the ruling party we have effectively destroyed our criminal justice system, our economy is under threat, we have pressing issues like energy, brain drain, crime etc”
My question to you is: don’t you think that a wrong message would be sent out there, that committing as serious crimes as fraud, corruption, racketeering, money laundering is acceptable for as long as you have political connection to the loud hounds who’d be more than eager to chant brainless songs and slogans about conspiracies that they themselves do not even begin to understand?
You also say:
“A political solution has to be found because the 2 factions are not adult enough to resolve their differences so we have to find a way or destroy our country”
There’s absolutely no problem with finding political solutions to any political problems, but here we have an individual who has been charged with corruption, fraud (and a string of charges), who deserves to account for all the allegations of which he stands accused. Suggesting amnesty at a time when this buffoon needs to go to trial (merely because this individual has presidential aspirations) should be dismissed as an apologetic stance of those who stand to benefit from seeing such compromised individuals ascend to the presidency.
Furthermore, you oddly allege that I have camps when I make a point that the buffoon should face court trial:
“(On Mbeki’s watch NZS. While you are confirming that we must see justice can you tell me why the criminal justice system was destroyed on your faction’s watch. Some of us would like all criminals prosecuted not just dancing feet)”
Maybe your selective amnesia has completely blinded from recalling to mind that I said, in other posts, that if there were evidence linking the incumbent (Mbeki) or his predecessors (Mandela and De Klerk) to wrongdoing, that evidence would need to be tested before the normal court processes to determine the culpability (or lack thereof) of those accused. This is precisely what I call for regarding that ever-smiling buffoon towards whom you are so sympathetic in your writings.
You then ask a very intriguing question, in which you invite me to “tell [you] why the criminal justice system was destroyed on [my] faction’s watch”. While I battled with understanding what constitutes my faction, I am more than eager to follow through this line of reasoning – based on the following (bizarre, I must add) assumptions:
ASSUMPTION 1: The legal challenges that your buffoonery idol is engaging in are indicative of the destruction of the criminal justice system.
ASSUMPTION 2: The uncertainty brought about by these legal challenges (especially in light of the upcoming general elections, in which the buffoon is eyeing the ruling party’s presidential candidacy for elections) sufficiently bears testimony to the notion that political stability can only be guaranteed by the absence of these challenges.
ASSUMPTION 3: The reluctance of the state (prosecuting authorities – judges, prosecutors) to be intimidated by the rowdy voices threatening mayhem if their buffoonery idol ever got tried in a court of law, amounts to the state’s collusion in the destruction of the criminal justice system thus envisioned.
ASSUMPTION 4: Since the state is also party to the very destructive tendencies the prosecution that seeks to restore the public confidence in the criminal justice system, then it (the state) has to own up by withdrawing the charges against the buffoon – despite the compelling evidence warranting a court trial.
ASSUMPTION 5: Bringing the buffoon to the court of law (‘dancing feet’) precludes the normal criminal procedures where perpetrators of financial impropriety and other suspected/alleged felons deserve to account for their alleged wrongdoing.
ASSUMPTION 6: The never-ending, yet-never-corroborated, insinuations about the incumbent’s (Mbeki’s) role in the arms deal should stand as sufficiently extenuating evidence for the buffoon’s exemption from accounting for the crimes he is alleged to have committed.
Against all these assumptions, Trapido, you want to tell me that you are astonished at having been disowned by your loudest Cheerleader and the temperamental Elderly commentator (the latter especially having made it her trademark to make symbolic cries for help as she drowns in self-created soup of racially-bigoted bile)? Come on, Trapido, you know you can do better than that.
Or, could there be any reason why you find it particularly discomforting (or fearful) to say it out loud that any protraction of the legal wrangles – as legally within parameters as they are – are resultant from the buffoon himself attempting at all costs to stop the evidence being presented before the courts? Do you seriously believe that prosecuting this buffoon amounts to “just [pursuing the] dancing feet” that should have otherwise been left to dance undisturbed, or yours is just an ingratiatory stance aimed at gaining access to some anticipated perks should the buffoon finally ascend to the throne? Don’t you find it mind boggling that, not even a single blog you have written so far, you have opted for pointing fingers at anybody else but the buffoon himself for all the political uncertainty and destruction of the criminal justice system you envisage and/or apperceive?
Once more, wishing you all the best in your quest for endearing yourself with the buffoonery ANC so-called leader and his ilk…………. Good thinking on your part – otherwise, you would have possibly found yourself on the other side of the litigation bench (answering for everything unpalatable you may have “unwittingly” said or written in your blogs about the buffoon in question).
What a shrewd calculator you really are! If anything, you deserve my sincerest and most heartfelt congratulations on your self-positioning.
To Old, female, paleface:
The fundamental difference between you and me is that I actually care about South Africa and its future prospects.
I did not write what I wrote to make fun of South Africa. This is the land of my ancestors, I could never be so inhumane.
You can blame the electorates all you like. But they won’t vote for a party that seems distant, cold, haughty and unsympathetic to their plights. Unless real opposition takes place in this country “liyofa elihle kakhulu” all good that has been sacrificed for will perish.
So no I am not giggling endlessly because my country is being stuffed up, in-fact I am more worried than ever. But it seems like you do not share the same sentiment. Your posting seems to suggest that the electorates deserve this much screwing up of the ANC.
And that is unpatriotic- to mention the very least. You seem to not care as long as the ANC keeps on stuffing up, forever being comedians and fools in your un-South African eyes.
A real democracy exists when a firm opposition exists- ask Tony Leon even he knows yet the DA is not firm. And currently real opposition ,let alone firm, does not exist in South Africa.
The SACDP, ID, DA, IFP need to stop being minority parties only vehement in certain provinces or cities. They need to roll-out their campaigns and win the masses instead of filling them with doubt, insecurity and jitter when faced with the ballot paper.
NZS In answer to your question : The message right now is that :
1. In as far as the arms deal goes everything that can be done to supress information is being done. In terms of Zuma and Shaik we stick to principles in terms of the rest of the parties we are doing nothing.
If you want to really send out a message (of the kind you are suggesting) let the judiciary appoint two judges who report to the public on the results of the whole arms deal not just Zuma.
Better yet charge all those implicated and be done with it. (31 charge sheets I believe) Yep there is sufficient allegation to answer. That’s how cases start.
In the meanwhile can you tell me what the message is that 18 000 murder files are unanswered for while this circus is going on?
In as far as Mbeki goes you say that if there is evidence which should be tested it should be taken to court. I hope you will now confirm that to the president ask him to stop threatening the Sunday Times and call upon the NPA to institute a prosecution based upon the evidence before the public right now.
As you say if there is ….there is…let it be tested - I’m glad you feel that way. I hope the president will now take the same point of view. I’m not saying he’s guilty but there are enough allegations to answer.
Assumption 1 : You call him Zuma idol. I said I like JZ because he wears his heart on his sleeve and you go tilt. At least I see fault can you? The legal challenges he is using are dilatory but within the law.
Assumption 2 : The fact that he is using his legal rights can never be the reason for the uncertainty. That flows from the disgusting inflammatory rhetoric that he and his faction are using to threaten the country and the Mbeki’ factions failure to deal with it suitably.
Assumption 3 : The destruction of the system is down to the fact that insufficient attention has been paid to the system and everything allowed to rot while resources are poured into this nonsense.
Assumption 4 : The state has been put under pressure first by Mbeki and now by Zuma in order to extricate himself. The State have shown incredible courage in the face of enormous political interference.
Assumption 5 : Both sides are using the provisions of the law.
Assumption 6 : You can change that by allowing Mbeki to be formally charged and answering in the court.
(BTW I’m answering you : My suggestion remains amnesty)
I don’t care if my mommy disowns me.
Nope I think I’ve managed to piss off both factions sufficiently today.
BTW as you are close to the one faction can you answer one question : Do you think we’ll have a country by the time our leaders grow up?
Would you comment on the one example where the Scorps were politically dircted. Remember the whistle blower who complained about the gross irregularities in the case of the Penuell Maduna (remember that useless blob) pal in he Master of the Supreme Court’s office. That Motala leach who got appointed to the juicy insolvency cases. Well the Scorps were mis-directed to investigate the whistle blower and the whole case seems to have gone quiet. A blot on the Scorp copybook it would seem.
But of course the current closing down is nothing to do with that, I’m sure. They are getting too close to some of the ANC’s naughty and tender bits, of course,
That there is no easy solution to the drama unfolding in South African politics, is clear. That amnesty is not an option is also clear. That is gives thieves the right to go on plundering without fear of consequence is intolerable. And that even if granted amnesty, the automatic result would be a better undivided government for all with improved service delivery, is - to say it mildy - more than a stretch.
Perhaps these are the growing pains of this fledgling democracy and one cannot wish them away. A democracy must be able to survive power struggles (that is the point of a democracy, after all i.e. party 1 and party 2 and party 3 develop out of competition for votes). Traps you are like the Dad of a bunch of teenagers trying desperately to “control” your kids to avoid them making “mistakes”. You know they have to grow up and you have to let go. You CAN’T control them even if you want to. You have no choice but to let this process take its course, including exposing all the skeletons in everyone’s cupboard, even if that scares the living daylights out of you.
A compliment though is owed to you, Traps: I do appreciate how you remain a mensch no matter what your critics say. Well mostly. Your analysis of BL was a little much, don’t you think? I think although BL is sometimes cutting, he is not “insulting” to you. On the contrary, he makes valid points and that leads to a lively debate. Perhaps that is exactly what South Africa sorely needs.
Trapzuman writes:
“Please tell us how to restore our criminal justice system so that the majority of our assets are deployed to fight crime not sort out a faction fight.”….
I recommend that you see a fantastic documentary entitled THE CHOIR (part of the Tri Continental Film Fest) It was filmed over 6yrs at Leeuwkop prison. It is on at Cinema Nouveau in Rosebank… Sat Aug 16th at 8.15pm and Tues Aug 19th at 8.15pm. Go and see it and then lets discuss “the criminal justice system” in South Africa.
The film should win an oscar for best documentary!
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on August 15th, 2008 at 6:50 am
Trapzuman,
Your questions and my answers…
Q 1: Please tell us why the Soviet Union was not part of Europe?
A: I reiterate part of the Soviet Union was part of Europe. The Soviet Union was not part of Europe.
Q2. Please explain why the draconian system you are suggesting for free speech is far better than the a system which is streets ahead of it when it comes to freedom of speech?
A: For the record, I think that the constitutional limitations on free speech in South Africa are reasonable. I also believe that, in the light of the serious terrorist threat in The UK, it was reasonable to imprison Abu Hamza for his inflamarory words.
Q3. Please tell us how to restore our criminal justice system so that the majority of our assets are deployed to fight crime not sort out a faction fight. (Zuma trial is fighting crime?) Besides that eg the 18 000 untraceable murders they can’t find on the system right now. They can tell you where Mbeki had breakfast in 2000 but not where 18 000 murder files have gone. How do we get the focus right?
A: I believe that it is not an “either/or” situation. Holding a political elite accountable for their actions (fraudulent?) is a democratic requirement.
Lisa,
Thank you for stating that South Africa sorely needs my “valid points that lead to lively debate.”
Trapzuman, moreover, should note that Chambers defines “valid” as:
“an argument, objection etc based on truth or sound reasoning.”
Whether Trapzuman’s arguments are “valid” is, of course, another kettle of fish. I will leave it up to the readers of this blog to decide.
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on August 15th, 2008 at 8:24 am
I was going to email this TL to my friends, who would have laughed wryly with me, halfway through I changed my mind. You guys should take your personal arguments somewhere else. Its really boring, and confusing, all this “he said, you said, I said..”.
You lost me. Sorry.
Why do you think I gave up my profession as a liquidator which I loved after 25 years? BUT the Scorpions could do nothing - there WAS nothing outside of the law, because the law has an anomoly which allows The Master of the High Court to appoint whom he wants at his discretion entirely. The Nats had NEVER used that section of the law
but it did exist!
BL and Traps
I see you have had a fight!I have only read the first and last comments but I am intrigued. Will come back and read later when I have more time.
Dawn the whole reason for having Thought Leader is in order to have intense debates, learn about the other person’s points of view and chip in.
That is how people avoid picking up weapons.
BL is one of our most passionate debaters and I look forward to reading his stuff, nzs andmany others who think I’m nuts. As long as they tell me why.
Where you agree jump in and where you think we’re idiots jump in.
From poles apart and by reading what people think you learn a lot about yourself and others.
Hopefully people will learn that being called an idiot is not a train smash. Not learning about each other and wallowing in your own prejudice is a train smash.
Traps, thank you. My point was that all I can see is the same arguments being raised over and over - more heat than light. I do appreciate the debate generally; in fact, in spite of the dire state so much of our country is in, I take much comfort from the postings of sensible people who differ from me.
Problem on his side is it’s 99% abuse and 1 % debate. That’s why he gets blacklisted by people.
When we debated (I came back early from court) he suddenly decided he doesn’t have my insight into the criminal justice system so he’ll keep shtum.
That did not stop him holding himself out as the authority on the subject - until I asked him to tell us his suggestion. That was the answer.
Yet here he is debating the merits of the amnesty in terms of the criminal justice system.
Please note all those who rushed to agree with his views.
Subsequently I had to get back to running 4 sites and a ton of case law. He then fills up a thread with insults and no content.
Which proves the fact that if you listen to a rabble….
If you follow the timing of the comments you’ll note how the bluster then returns. You’ll also note I am not a bully as I gave him a back door and left it. Not a great tactician our BL. When you’re in a hole don’t dig.
As for Europe : BL says - If it’s part of Europe and part of Asia (even the majority of it) then it’s not part of Europe.
That’s what you are agreeing to there.
The reason BL gets his name is that he goes after people and abuses them. In the name of free speech.
Free speech which he champions using a draconian system (compared to ours) as his point of reference.
Despite his intolerance of views in opposition to his own I offer him full rights of free speech.
Unlike the others I will not be blacklisting the dictator or anyone else.
How can your amnesty protect/preserve the criminal justice system. I understand the logic, but while what is left will still function, it will surely be fatally compromised?
JZ and his cohorts and threats will have been proven to bigger than the law, the law will have been proven not to hold all men equal before it, and its integrity will be gone forever.
What will happen next time a leading ANC politician breaks the law? Another amnetsy?
Amused Reader as I have said to the guys this is a valid point. But what do you say to the guys who say that there are (just in the arms deal) over 30 who should be standing there?
Is there merit in their argument that principles apply when it’s expedient?
BL made a fabulous point when we had coffee - If you have a 1 000 murders and you only catch one should he go free because you can’t catch the others?
From my personal point of view I would like to see a political solution because it will (in my opinion) release pressure.
A good alternative would be the ANC stepping up to the plate and warning those who don’t respect the law of the country or disrespecting the party will be dealt with immediately in terms of the law or thrown out the party.
Send a message to the Alliance partners - If you respect us as a partner and an ally please respect our dignity and carry out your protests in a manner that befits the leaders of this country.
Can you see it happening?
Instead it’s threat - counter-threat and war talk.
All countries have big trials. The difference is that the parties know that if they step out of line they’ll face the law.
Can you see any of the leaders facing the law or sanctions from their party?
Madiba calls for unity and the factions are at it straight after his birthday party.
An article of interest in today’s M&G is the survey showing the ANC are maintaining their majority.
Why aren’t people looking at our opposition as an alternative? No amnesty is being suggested (maybe a handful)and the failings are many yet the opposition aren’t making gains.
That is the reality of the country. As is the factions and the damage they are doing.
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on August 16th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
Trapzuman,
I refer you to an article about the geography of the Soviet Union.
Wikipedia:
“Although its historical, political, economic, and cultural ties bound it firmly to Europe, the Soviet Union was largely an Asian country because of Siberia.”
“The Soviet Union occupied the Eastern Portion of the European continent and the Northern portion of the Asian continent”.
BL then goes digging and digging to find some obscure line somewhere in Wiki to try and support an argument that cannnot be maintained.
In other words in context - Even though the Soviet Union physically occupied part of Europe it was, according to BL, never part of Europe. (BTW We all accept it was also part of Asia)
Your “logic”…the Soviet Union was part of Europe and was largely an Asian country???
Plerase give me a written undertaking that you won’t teach geography or English or history at my son’s school. If you don’t I will have to take out an injunction.
And I reiterate, who is backing you? Peruse the above comments and please let me know.
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on August 17th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
Traps
Actually it was my point about catching 1 out of 100 murderers!
I would not trust those Markinov surveys if I was you. I have been getting more and more amused as how they always come out supporting what the ANC wants us to believe when the ANC is in a jam! This is NOT the first time!
And give up on Russia - never mind just its geography, its history is TOTALLY different from Europe’s as well. Also different from Asia’s - falls between the two.
And please explain why, if we give amnesty, the people must still stay in office AND the money and profits not be refunded? Why?
Even when the encyclopedia tells you that geographically/physically the Soviet Union occupied the Northern part of Europe you still persist with your nonsense that it was never part of Europe.
Read it the link is above (see my comment) point 6 of Wiki. Oops you hadn’t seen my comment - didn’t think I’d carry it forward that you could just pick a sentence out of Wiki and carry on.
Secondly don’t ever use “Your logic” and run off on a debate with crap that you put forward as my argument.
I say regardless of what proportions the Soviet Union was part of Europe. That it is also part of Asia is common cause.
Your point of view is the Soviet Union was never part of Europe.
The Wikipedia item is above. The thread where this debate started is Radovan Karodic : Bonfire of the racist vanities.
BL says : The Soviet Union was NEVER part of Europe.
His arguments consist of - Look John agrees with me or promise me you won’t teach kids geography but on substance like everywhere else it’s all just garbage.
Lyndall on that fabulous point. No wonder BL came up with it - it was yours.
To simplify - either JZ goes to court and clears his name and can become president, OR he gets amnesty (i.e does a plea bargain) and then he can’t be president, but he stops stuffing around and attacking the judges and the media.
Lyndall - amnesty is amnesty a plea bargain is a Section 105 A of the Crim proc Act.
Neither means he can or can’t stay in office if a settlement is reached.
I’m not saying it has to be my way but that a political solution is better than the current circus.
The reason I said it should be the ANC, Govt and Opposition parties is so that a deal can be struck that suits the govt (Mbeki faction) ANC (Zuma faction) and Opposition - protection of cjs, media freedom etc.
If both faction deal and accept a compromise candidate eg Motlanthe then nobody will be stirring a revolt and the party would unite in enforcing law and order.
Trapzuman,
I have always stated that ” a part of the Soviet Union was part of Europe” and that it was incorrect to state ” the Soviet Union was part of Europe”.
You are obviously determined to re-write your blog’s history. But this is dangerous. Inevitably your blog will collapse…just like the Soviet Union.
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on August 18th, 2008 at 11:01 am
Traps
A plea bargain is legal. Amnesty is not. And the opposition parties would never agree - why should they?
BL
I am getting fed up with this Russian business. On which blogpost did it start? I want to go back and record everything everyone said and kill this once and for all!
Russia is a vsst, vast country. Its history is neither European nor Asian but Russian. Russia defeated two of the biggest armies of recent history just by retreating over that vast expanse -Napoleon and Hitler! No country in Europe could have done the same.
Lyndall - Amnesty is a legal process as well. We apply for it from the State president on application after appeals have failed.
BL + Lyndall : The thread is entitled Radovan Karodic :
Please show us where you have always stated that a par of the Soviet Union was part of Europe. NB each comment you’ll note is marked as to date and time.
Please indicate the post and the comment where you say it and I’ll point out the 25 - 50 odd posts where despite more and more evidence you flatly refused to accept it.
You were adamant and started the debate the Soviet Union was NEVER part of Europe.
Do you consider China, Mongolia and North Korea to be in Europe? Because Russia borders all those countries. Russia is both part of Europe AND part of Asia.
All you had to do was look at a map, or Google Wikepedia.
“Traps,
You start your editorial voicing your pleasure about Karadzic’s arrest and end with…
“Africa is a million miles from where it needs to be. That does not make it beyond redemption.
It’s time we started seeing the good as well as the bad.”
How on earth did you reach your conclusion? Must have missed the “logical” progression!
(btw, The Soviet Union was not part of Europe. )
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on July 25th, 2008 at 4:24 pm edit
Then having been told repeatedly by Luddite and I that if it was partly in Europe it was a part of Europe on that thread you come up with this on this thread.
Trapzuman,
Your questions and my answers…
Q 1: Please tell us why the Soviet Union was not part of Europe?
A: I reiterate part of the Soviet Union was part of Europe. The Soviet Union was not part of Europe.
Q2. Please explain why the draconian system you are suggesting for free speech is far better than the a system which is streets ahead of it when it comes to freedom of speech?
A: For the record, I think that the constitutional limitations on free speech in South Africa are reasonable. I also believe that, in the light of the serious terrorist threat in The UK, it was reasonable to imprison Abu Hamza for his inflamarory words.
Q3. Please tell us how to restore our criminal justice system so that the majority of our assets are deployed to fight crime not sort out a faction fight. (Zuma trial is fighting crime?) Besides that eg the 18 000 untraceable murders they can’t find on the system right now. They can tell you where Mbeki had breakfast in 2000 but not where 18 000 murder files have gone. How do we get the focus right?
A: I believe that it is not an “either/or” situation. Holding a political elite accountable for their actions (fraudulent?) is a democratic requirement.
Lisa,
Thank you for stating that South Africa sorely needs my “valid points that lead to lively debate.”
Trapzuman, moreover, should note that Chambers defines “valid” as:
“an argument, objection etc based on truth or sound reasoning.”
Whether Trapzuman’s arguments are “valid” is, of course, another kettle of fish. I will leave it up to the readers of this blog to decide.
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on August 15th, 2008 at 8:24 am edit
This part of the Soviet Union was part of Europe but the Soviet Union was not part of Europe garbage you are now trying to sell as what you meant is crap. Just read your answers to that theory on the first post. (The starting one)
Even if you could draw a distinction based upon your theory it’s still wrong. If a part was part of Europe then the whole is deemed to be part of Europe and part of Asia.
It’s almost as bad as that garbage you gave on free speech.
As I said I promise not to interfere with your sons school. It’s best he believe that the draconian system you put forward is free speech.
If I educate him he might even be allowed to speak.
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on August 19th, 2008 at 9:32 am
Lyndall - apology to you - yours is the same as Luddite and I.
BL - why do you need an editorial? The forum is right here. Anyone stops you making a point let me know.
Just in answer to Lisa - BL does drive a lot of food for thought here that is why I welcome his presence here and in the not too distant future elsewhere as well.
Trapz,
Not many people are reading this thread.
As a result, you should ask your readers, in a new editorial, whether they agree with your contention or with mine.
I think it would be correct to state that about 25% of the Soviet Union was part of Europe.
“The country’s 22.4 million square kilometers include one-sixth of the earth’s inhabited land area. Its western portion, more than half of all Europe, makes up just 25 percent of the Soviet Union.”
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on August 19th, 2008 at 10:22 am
Michael
How come my comment poted at 9.16 am is still “awaiting moderation” and yours posted at 10.12am is in? By the time mine clears it will be too high up for anyone to read!
Your unwillingness to write a new editorial entitled ” The Soviet Union was part of Europe. Please vote now.” is due to your fear that you will LOSE the vote.
You say that I have given you a thicker skin but evidently I have not given you guts/courage.
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Hear, hear!
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