A key issue in reaching a settlement in Zimbabwe is going to be parties being able reach an accommodation on the outgoing president and Zanu-PF. As in the case of the National Party prior to 1994, there is too much baggage being carried by Mugabe and his party for them to simply allow for a transition to the party of the majority. The MDC would be compelled to charge many high ranking members of the Zimbabwean government with crimes against humanity.
My feelings on Mugabe must play second fiddle to the desperate plight of the poorer communities of South Africa and Zimbabwe. An estimated 5,1-million Zimbabweans are staring starvation in the face
Justice is easier to contemplate when you are sitting at home with the heater on, waiting for your lunch, than it is when you’re in a shack, starving, while state-sponsored or inspired thugs are butchering your family. Try and remember that while you are trying to be “brave” on behalf of Zimbabweans.
Hopefully, as part of any deal, the Zimbabwean Constitution can be amended to ensure that no president or party can ever hold the country hostage again.
In South Africa, there are definite parallels to be drawn from what is happening up north, although in our case it is one of the ANC embroiled in a power struggle with itself.
This is going to hit home in the build-up to the Zuma hearing and, unfortunately, after the elections next year if matters are not brought to a head. The only difference between the hearing and post-elections is the faction who will seek to control the organs of state and the media.
In order to understand where I’m coming from you need to read two articles. The first appeared on IOL in 2005 and sets out the history of the arms deal in some detail from 1998 until June of that year.
The subsequent fall out between the president and Zuma culminated in the latter being elected as the ANC’s president and candidate for the national presidency. Woven into the fabric of this conflict was the unlawful use of state organs, which occasioned a war between the police and Scorpions and focused our criminal justice system on politics rather than fighting crime.
That war continues, with the judiciary now tearing itself apart and the NPA facing enormous pressure in having to deal with a trial that’s become a political football rather than a quest for justice.
Now read Karyn Maughan’s article on the latest bombshell from the arms deal.
In a report by an ANC task team the president’s involvement in the arms deal is coming under increasing fire while Zuma’s role appears to have been the subject of lesser criticism. While Mbeki’s denials are placed in doubt, calls for a Zuma amnesty as a “pragmatic solution” are put forward.
As I said in an article many months ago, Jacob Zuma must be given amnesty. That was before our judiciary started ripping itself apart and threats of killing for Jacob Zuma began. Many of those who scoffed at such a suggestion have reassessed the situation and have started to contemplate the same thing. These calls are going to get louder as time marches on.
Now, however, I need to include President Mbeki in the same way. The last thing this country needs is to go through the next elections, become optimistic for the future only to find that it’s payback time. This time it’s the Zuma camp taking it’s revenge on the Mbeki camp and our criminal justice system is once again being used to settle old scores while the economy takes a hammering.
If the president is backed into a Mugabe-like-corner, what’s next on the inter-factional agenda requiring delayed elections, prosecutions or the like?
While it might have slipped everyone’s minds there is an enormous amount of anger on the ground. If non-delivery, post-Polokwane, runs parallel to the current trends then the ANC won’t have to worry about the DA, FF or the UDF because losing voters will be the least of their problems. The factions won’t be arguing with each other — they’ll be too busy trying to work out how to stop a mass revolt.
If the xenophobia riots weren’t sufficient warning of the current mood what will be? I went in among the people and their anger was real. Not criminals — ordinary folks who were bitter about corruption in local councils, exiles putting up shacks next door to them overnight, the list was endless. They were ordinary people, not criminals! Ordinary people. When ministers tried to call for calm they found an anger even they did not expect, JZ included.
Before we find ourselves in another Zimbabwe-type debacle, the ANC must get together and thrash out a settlement covering both factions once and for all. Call in the opposition so that they can ensure that the Constitution is amended so as to avoid the ANC ever turning on itself again.
These include making press freedom non-negotiable, total independence of the judiciary and criminal justice systems so that they can never be employed as instruments of politics again. That will not threaten the party it will safeguard it, its members and the citizens of this country.
If we could overcome 40 plus years of apartheid by negotiation using all parties then why not go down the same route? This country is crying out for political certainty so we can deal with the rest of our problems.
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53 Responses to “Mbeki and Zuma amnesty to avoid a repeat of Zimbabwe?”
Amnesty? What for?
The crimes took place AFTER democracy had been restored and the new constitution was in situ. It’s no different today from what it was when the crimes were committed. If they can get amnesty today, they’ll have established a legal precedent to obtain amnesty for the same offences tomorrow.
How can you run a criminal justice system when you are deliberately wormholing it all the time with amnesties because the personalities are seen to be more powerful than the principles?
It’s a ridiculous notion which will Zimbabwify SA in a heartbeat.
Traps, you suggest “making press freedom non-negotiable, total independence of the judiciary and criminal justice systems so that they can never be employed as instruments of politics again. That will not threaten the party it will safeguard it, its members and the citizens of this country.”
Unless I’m mistaken, those values are already in our Constitution. The problem isn’t the Constitution; rather it’s the failure to translate it into practice.
Laws designed merely for expediency’s sake tend to have unforeseen (and undesirable) consequences. Take the floor-crossing legislation for instance.
I don’t think we need amnesties, settlements and special legislation for the sake of crooked politicians. We just need to stand up for the fair and transparent application of those we already have.
1) Whatever Zuma’s involvement in the arms deal or other possible wrongdoings, these are dwarfed by the stance Mbeki has taken on HIV/AIDS, crime and Zimbabwe, amongst others.
2) In general, South Africa is too hung up about the past, either by (a) trying to suppress mistakes made earlier or by (b) engaging in a nostalgic search for a perfect (South) Africa that actually never was. This stance is hampering a necessary reconciliation while at the same time it thwarts a more appropriate focus on the here and now.
3) I am happy to contribute whatever I can to the betterment of the presence and future of South Africa. And I hope the self-involved political cabaleurs in this country well actually allow to let it happen…
I would rather trust the judgement of Moeletsi Mbeki and Helen Zille on this issue than yours. They have both pointed out the big differences between SA and Zimbabwe, which make a Zim situation unlikely. The strength of civil society being one of them.
Stop being so afraid of allowing SA to have democracy - just because we are part of Africa.
And there is no disagreement between the Mbeki and the Zuma factions on the arms deal - both factions are implicated.
Zuma is just the front guy behind whom all implicated are pouring money for his PR and his legal actions. Remember all implicated stand to loose not only the bribes they took, but also all their profits - as well as going to prison.
In light of African history, dont you think amnesty for corrupt “big Man” politicians is a bad thing for SA to start?
and if you research every other african country that tried it what happened was that the politicians stripped what they could in office and then gave themselves amnesty, including to charges of rape, murder and torture.
they then spent their time in retirement interfering with the govt, and sometime running it using a proxy, especially when it looked like anyone was going to reciting the amnesty.
forgive me for suggesting that anyone in SA would like to notice the continent next door, but perhpas you might like to notice what happened in Latin America and their troubles.
Let alone notice that whilst Africa loves to proect its corrupt murderous politicians with amnesty and govt of National Unity, the Latin americans have been regularly stirking down amnesty lawas covering the Dirty wars and slowly bringing the remaining torturers to justice:
I wonder what all the African govts look like to them, making the same mistakes as they did without even bothering to ask for advice or learn from them.
Amnesty for all defaulters in delivery the services they promised for the money handed out to them to do just that? Amnesty because the ANC is turning on itself? Amnesty because the poor turn on each other because the ANC did not look after them? Amnesty will sort this out once and for all????? We have seen 15 years of amnesty left, right and centre. ANC top officials have spend more time in court than doing their jobs often at tax payers expense. Now you want this circus called government to continue??? WOW!!
How about putting all, vaguely accused of any wrongdoing, on unpaid leave until matters have been sorted out. Drunken judges and drunken police chiefs, travelgate participants, armsdeal fingered, influencing constitution court accused, and all those in the lower ranks of government, fixing contracts for friends, not working, not performing.
Your first advice should have been to vote the ANC out of power or at least into shared power. Ask/Tell opposition parties to make a plan to do just that. Can’t be difficult under the circumstances.
I see your point and your solution seems viable but i can’t see Mbeki ignore his ego until his back is against a wall.It seems that the ANC’s leaders absolute power has truly corrupted them the same way it did their predecessors.
I also see an attitude of first the party and then the country which seems wrong somehow…
Why would one need amnesty for a crime you deny commiting. Traps the arms deal has and continues to cause misery for millions of South Africans who as a result of this expenditure are having to still face the reality of poor education, bad or no service delivery etc. So let them all have amnesty at the end of the day the poor will foot the bill. The very poor that this triad of liars say they support. I just hope that they (those liars in power) admit their guilt before amnesty is given. No admission no amnesty.
It does not mean that because the right thing to do is also the most difficult and risky that we should avoid doing it. It is as slippery slope - political expedience.
Morally, there can be bo “solution” to the Zimbabwean crisis that does not prioritise the ordinary people (elephants’ fight trampling the grass, and all that). However, in any compromise, look carefully at the principle being sacrificed to see whether there is not the seed of even greater travesties.
Before I get too high and might about “justice” being done in Zimbabwe, I have to acknowledge the amount of compromise that took place in South Africa leading up to 1994.
However, how much does one allow the bully to retain power or control? We need to search our hearts deeply over Zim.
The flaw I see with the Zuma scenario is the likelihood of anyone admitting “guilt”. It seems clear that unrest and anger may be employed as a tool to persuade the nervous middle classes that a compromise is preferrable to instability and conflict. How much can one allow deliberate instigation to “succeed”?
You write that there must be “total independence of the judiciary and criminal justice systems” whilst at the same time calling for a political amnesty re Zuma and Mbeki. However, shouldn’t it be for the independent judiciary and criminal justice systems to decide whether the politicians have a case to answer?
If amnesty for Zuma, how about amnesty for Shaik? Of course, he will be released when Zuma takes over, but should he be languishing in jail?
I agree that South Africa is another “Zimbanana” case. And yes, you are right to argue that amnesty is the way forward. But lets face it, there is a heavy price to pay… the end of any belief in an independent judiciary and criminal justice system.
Perhaps the slow, rather than the fast train to Harare, is the one that we should take, but don’t fool yourself. We will get there just the same.
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on July 28th, 2008 at 8:40 am
Are you channelling Neville Chamberlain again, Traps? Appeasement has not worked with Mugabe. Like Hitler he takes it as a sign of weakness. The only time he’s given any ground has been when he has actually been under pressure. What’s he going to do to the Zimbabwean people? Starve them? Set thugs on them? Too late. There is no way he can survive when government employees - including the army and said thugs cannot be paid with any meaningful currency. If we have to prosecute Zuma and Mbeki and long list of others… and they’ve seen amnesty can be won at the barrel of a gun, that’s what they’ll do. Zimbabwe has been reduced to RIGHT place and time to see Bob and cronies get their just reward. Their levers against the hostages - the people of Zimbabwe - have been used. Yes, there is always more down, but it is getting to the point Zimbabwe’s backers cannot afford to ignore another major atrocity. Bob know that. And the reality is the daily stream of atrocities and starvation - are a pattern you set to repeat if you allow amnesty now. Do you really think that ‘law’ will preserve the freedom the press, or judiciary? Not unless law is prepared to see Bob in the Hague, if not hanged in Harare. Offer amnesty - or reduced sentences - to the small fry… If they will bring you the head (or evidence) of those who orchestrted.
In essence what you are proposing is the following:
1. You fear war and hunger so we must bow to bullies, who for the sake of their personal aggrandizement are holding us to ransom.
2. You sir, obviously, were not part of our struggle against a similar regime that was of a lighter complexion which by the way also held us to ransom.
3. We have put that regime into the dustbin of history and will do the same with the current and replace it with people that have honor and integrity.
A: Establish a government fund. Say about 20 billion rands. Politicians can apply to the fund without having to sign costly arms contracts which help to destroy the economy.
The fund is administered by independent judges. In order to get the cash, the politician has to prove to the judge that he is about to sign a very costly unnecessary contract that the country can’t afford. If the contract is not signed, the politician is recompensed by the fund. No need for bribery and corruption. It is all above board.
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on July 28th, 2008 at 10:56 am
Michael -
This seems a genuine appeal, so perhaps an appeal to TLs - irrespective of loyalties - rather to understand the basic political problem SA faces is also in place here.
All calls for ‘the two sides to come together’ are not only futile but arguably counter-productive. They cannot - not only because they disagree fundamentally with each other, but because the ‘two sides’ are not separated in the sense you suggest.
SA is a monocracy of the ANC. What we are seeing is two factions within the party contest power because they know the party is the only key to the power of the state. Paradoxically, the overriding interest of both these otherwise bitterly divided interests is to preserve the party - not to split it. And then to use it against ‘the other side’ once they have control.
Elitist, undemocratic government that increasingly becomes entrenched is the unavoidable result.
Constitutions are vital to establish the institutions of government and their workings and to enshrine modern standards of human rights. But no constitution can in the long run guarantee freedom and justice against monopoly power. Monopoly power is always - literally with no exception - abused.
Any chance of change begins with realising the ANC is the problem, not the solution. Nothing can be done to ‘avoid the ANC ever turning on itself again’. Monocracy has no alternative and the cycle will endlessly repeat itself.
This dangerous situation will remain until the ‘broad church’ of the ANC splits into (at least) its two main tendencies. That makes it possible for two genuine ’sides’ to contest power openly with each other, with the voters genuinely able to decide which ‘party’ gets to run things until next time .. when, depending on performance, they might decide to kick them out, or give them another term.
Zuma is due to appear in the Pietermaritzburg High Court in a week’s time. The ANCYL, with the Young Communist League (YCL), various other youth organisations and the ANC Women’s League, pledged on Thursday to mobilise South Africans in support of Zuma.
Youth league president Julius Malema pledged that the league will launch its own legal “initiative” if Zuma’s application for apermanent stay fails, but he was thin on details about what it will be.
“We will leave that to our legal teams. We will launch our own initiative immediately [after the ruling is given].”
The league and the MK Military Veterans’ Association (MKMVA) have sought legal advice on how to help Zuma in his trial, which they insist is a political trial and therefore cannot be fair.
The leagues, coming together, will consolidate reports from the ANCYL and veterans’ association and plan ahead to ensure that the trial does not prevent Zuma from becoming president of the country in 2009.
The YCL’s secretary, Buti Manamela, said the youth movement is going from door to door in “villages, townships and the suburbs” to get the nation on their side.
(Zim militia copy cats)
According to Malema even “the soldiers” — referring to Umkhonto weSizwe — will be mobilised in support of Zuma. “Then you will see what militancy means.”
(Forecast this scenario week or more ago - when the main concern was Zim.)
old, female, pale face. on July 28th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
Sergeant at the Bar’s column in this weeks M and G sums up the situation from a legal/constitutional point of view. I share his/her summation - its excatly what I have been thinking for a year or more.
Its also been obvious to me that the JZ camp are so vociferous because they know something we don’t for a fact, namely that Thabo and his merry band are in it up to the eyes in arms deal corruption, making the prosecution of their Great Leader all the more unfair.
This battle, where ANC cadres dishonestly attack the constitution, Judiciary and anything else they can think of, instead of honestly fighting it out internally (because of course its better to weaken the country than “The Party” - Polokwane being about as far as they will go)could lead to the destruction of the very institutions that guarantee us our rights and freedoms.
So, its not really about Zuma and Mbeki more about us and our country and although it goes against everything I believe in, I would support some kind of amnesty, based on full disclosure of arms deal corruption.
A TRC for the arms deal? When will it ever end or are we doomed to a succession of corrupt politicians requiring amnesty to save some semblance of a just and equitable society?
Traps, I doubt that the opposition parties will be so amendable to a govt amnesty for ANC party members. Especially when it could lead to continued internal strife within the ANC as they will probably gain some political windfall from that - though I must admit, most of the opposition parties have squandered the opportunities presented to them by Polokwane.
My previous comments on this was with regards to moral hazard - this precendent create scope for similar precedents in future. And don’t kid yourself that it will not happen - it will, no matter what checks and balances we put in place to avoid it. There are sufficient national and international examples in history.
Rather than amnesty, I would suggest they reach an agreement with the NPA, similar as those involving Travelgate MPs in that they get suspended sentences/ fines, i.e. admission of guilt with a penalty not sufficient for them to have to quit parliament / politics. It could be a simple agreement between the ANC and the NPA, with the latter accepting it on the principle of national interests. Many (but not all opposition parties) may find this more acceptable. It also show leadership to admit guilt, have wronged the nation, have learned from it, and move on.
You may be right that the Anglo-Saxon approach to justice may be wrong in this regard, but sweeping everything under the carpet is also not the right & IMHO, not the modern/historic African way.
The key is to find solutions within our current legal framework to avoid potential social unrest (which is not in the national interest), reduce the impact on in terms of moral/legal justice, and reduce moral hazard. IMHO, amnesty should be used with extreme care as has special meaning in SA history.
Well Traps you have been banging this drum for some time now, and you state that your view is gaining momentum, which I also perceive. I assume you have some inside track in respect to one faction or an other. However, you imply that the state is in a danger of sliding into the abyss over the JZ v TM affair. Is the state of democracy really that delicate, is the state really in danger of exploding into Zim type politics?
Trapido Let everyone wait for the investigations that have been opened up by the Scorpoions, they have reopened the investigations according to an article in one of the Sunday news papers. Some of us demand that facts be put on the table about the Mbeki issue. The fact that he met various government authorities is not important what will explain things is what did he get out of such meetings. WAS HE BRIBED OR WERE THE MEETINGS AN ATTEMPT TO FACILITATE THE DEALS? This must come out very clearly with no innuendos. Where are bank transactions be it domestically or internationally? Mbeki as the head of state could not be left out of the arms deal. The crux of the matter is WAS HE BRIBED? That is what we need to know and I pray that we know about it sooner than later. In my own observations I doubt that he took a bribe considering the way he has handled himself. According to parties that have shown interest and written about Mbeki extensivel, the man hates bribes. That is why we need to know if his character has changed without innuendos from suspicious quarters. Everything better come out in the open. No amnesty not at all. I write this as a proud South African who demands nothing else but excellent leadership for our motherland.
Guys I certainly have no inside track on what is going to happen.
What I do know is that while these two factions are tearing each other to pieces this economy is taking a battering which in turns makes delivery to a very large section of our population - difficult.
Where land reforms run amok sent Zim spiralling the divisions in the ANC could do the same here.
It’s all well and good for the ANC to say we aren’t divided but everything says that’s garbage.
The ANC will be the majority in the next elections. If the Zuma camp starts payback time what then?
It’s all very well to say lets see what this or that evidence brings while half the country including blacks are looking at leaving and the other half are saying we’re doomed.
Wait until non-delivery finally sparks a reaction what will we say then?
Hold on we’re waiting for another hearing or enquiry we’ll get back to you?
Something firm has to be done and the task of dealing with our other major problems begun.
Leaving the country or being a martyr is not the answer. Let’s hear you guys on real answers.
I don’t want the Mbeki camp telling me “Old dancing feet is a moron” or the Zuma camp telling me that Mbeki has hands far dirtier than Zuma.
Rather tell me what tangible proposals you suggest to stop the ANC fighting.
Interesting piece of work. The concept of “amnesty” is becoming like “planned repentance”
One gets into all sorts of messy stuff, including murder of innocent woman, children and “man”. When the law finally catches up, the only way out is to commit further atrocities, crime, corruption just to fill he “sin busket”.
Create a coalition of gullible murderous followers (talk to Bob)to commit more. In time, with much “incentive” they will give you amnsety!!
Life can’t be better!! Commit as much sin as you want, after all there is repentance!!
Well said XNM, The Elephant and the rest who are saying no amnesty to crooks (am not saying Zuma is guilty but let him have his day in court). I believe the other half of the ANC is using the threat of terror to get JZ out of his issues, from the way i see it he is their meal ticket. Chances of South Africa going the Zim way are slim unless the opposition in this country dies then you are @#$d. Its all a question of giving the people an option. The ANC knows right now that no matter what in the coming election they will win, it does not matter whether less people vote or not the will get what they crave - power. So its up to South African standing up and getting to a situation whereby there is more than one part capable of wining any election.
Maybe the idea of stopping the fighting within the ANC is the wrong way to go. If it continues and they tear the organisation apart maybe that will be first prize for all South Africans. This will undoubtedly lead to new political alignments and this might well be worth the risks involved.
The present three ring circus needs needs a complete makeover
The ANC and the Tripartate agreement no longer are serving the interests of the majority of the population. Believe me if Cosatu or the SACP had any credibility they would have stood up against this. They are guilty by implication and as such I believe they no longer serve the ordinary man in the street. This threat of war is against who? You, me the constitution? It’s ridiulous. If the ANC splits, and it will, then there is hope, but their present attitude based on baaskap politics seems to forget that they promised a contract with the people. Where is that contract?
Good one Traps, but not good enough! While I do not favour the amnesty route, I must admit, it is at the very least one of the tangible alternatives. A third way is really decades away. The opposition, instead of positioning themselves to appeal to a broader pool of voters than their current constituencies, are standing on the sidelines clapping feverishly as the ANC decimates itself forgetting that voters are not simply not going to run crying to them. It is also at this stage unlikely, but most certainly a distant possibility, that a number of the increasingly marginalized, and less favoured but capable ANC members, will breakaway and form a new Political Party.
I must however say that an amnesty is only a short-tem solution. The factions within the ANC have become so complex that it is difficult to distinguish between enemies and friends. The more obvious and easily identifiable enemies get eliminated. With so much of the resources, few positions, too many would-be beneficiaries and controlled access, there’s bound to be a never-ending, but fierce competition. I doubt if the amnesty option will cure the disease eating away at the ANC.
Why should we as citizens and country be held to ransom by a few embittered individuals? If President Mbeki or anyone for that matter is implicated in the arms-deal and there is sufficient evidence showing a prosecutable case, then let him spin. Threatening violence in the hope of extorting a political settlement has the hallmarks of a Kenyean template of the type dished out to the MDC.
Another independent, but soon to be disbanded, institution, NPA, announced that it has opened the arms-deal investigation. This war is far from over and the battles are fought at all fronts. The amnesty will have to have a wider scope, if it is to succeed, and that would make the mockery of our justice system. The political elite get treated with kid-gloves, and the poor and ordinary citizens, whom they are supposed to serve by the way, get the middle finger.
I also don’t think the fighting is the problem, rather the dishonest way its being done, by attacking institutions that did not cause the problem but have been abused by those in power.
Now, if all that divides the ANC is this abuse of power, leading to selective protection and targeting a la Selebi and JZ and and not real political differences, then we have a problem. The trashing of our judiciary, the NPA and the consitution will continue because that’s where the battle lines were drawn by the present government, which also has a huge problem with accountability and lack of respect for thosesame institutions.
Solutions - as a start all poiticians sign Kader’s “oath” to uphold the constitution, next, JZ and others come clean and enter into a travelgate type plea bargain. I agree with Oupoot, this is far peferable to an amnesty, but where will this end? What kind of precedent does it set?
The arms deal itself was theft from the nation’s coffers in order to feed the ‘world stage political egos’ of some influential figures in the ANC and that is to say nothing of the associated corruption which was also theft from the nation’s coffers in order to line the individuals concerned’s pockets.
The whole arms deal ill-served the people of this country, particularly the poor, and wherever possible those responsible for crimes associated with the arms deal should be charged in court.
The arms deal might currently appear to be a weapon in the struggle between two ANC camps but that is no reason for thinking of amnesty for those concerned because those involved stole from the public purse and it is the people of South Africa who are the ultimate losers not one or other faction within the ANC except in as much as they are also citizens of our country.
It’s easy to set a trend with this amnesty nonsense and special treatment of bigwigs whose puffed-up “dignity” would be deflated. Richard Calland doesn’t want Judge Hlophe’s hearings to be media circuses as it would “offend the dignity” of the judiciary! It’s high time bigwigs learnt that they are not above the law. Now’s a good time.
The only way that the ANC will prevent itself from imploding will be for one side to remove any opposition within their ranks. It has already started with the demise of the East and Western Cape Premiers.
Greed has taken control and what is in it for me is more important to them than doing the job the majority of these rogues have been elected to do.
The law must take its course and only then can an amnesty be considered as a once off agreement never to be repeated. That way a legal precedent can be avoided.
Power corrupts it is human nature, ask uncle Bob guys he thinks he owns a country.
Paul Whelan,
I agree with most of your analysis.
However, the ANC splitting into two separate “parties” will not resolve the matter.
Ironically enough a strong united ANC is the only way forward. But, of course, it comes at a terrible price… corruption, inefficiency etc.
Whatever the sycophants (Trapido?) say about Mandela, his conception of a post apartheid South Africa where The ANC takes everything was fundamentally flawed. We are now living the Mandela “legacy”.
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on July 29th, 2008 at 8:47 am
Michael -
Time and again in TL @Anton and @Owen make the key point in this debate and do so again here.
People’s loyalty and desire for order and peace are commendable, and their call for the old remedy to be applied is understandable, but nothing now can stop the ANC in-fighting. The cause that once united them - the ‘other’ - is no more.
It is not only the struggle for power finding an outlet, certain though that is. It is also human nature to disagree. Sects, factions - call them what you will - always multiply in religion and politics where people have the freedom to choose.
It is despotism that seeks uniformity. The essence of ‘democracy’ is plurality, difference, living with itself.
@Blcklisted Dictator speaks for most SAns in freely admitting the problem but somehow not wanting to admit the solution.
If one party stays in power too long it can only be the same age-old path downhill for all of us - including the ANC. The evidence is already there.
Change can only come by realising that the ANC is simply not ‘the only way forward’.
The idea of legitimate opposition, of government changing peaceably at the free decision of what all sides like to call (and claim to speak for)’the people’, is enormously sophisticated, the achievement of western democracy. But there is no mystery about it. It took centuries of struggle and suffering that continue today. The trick is to realise it can never stop.
We do our tiny little individual bit to retard progress every time we repeat the old truth: that only the ANC can save us.
Dawie Roodt, the economist, has given a brilliant summary of what has gone wrong with Zim - basically all the institutions on which democracy is based, have been destroyed by Mugabe subversion, one logically following the next like a row of falling dominoes: private property, free & independent press, independent judiciary, law-abiding non-political police force, uncorrupted military, impartial electoral office, etc. This means that a power-sharing agreement with the opposition is bound to fail as a solution to the crisis, because the institutions will have to be rebuilt and will have to obtain the necessary trust in time. Zanu-PF could never agree to the latter without exposing themselves to prosecution; Tsvangirai would stand no chance in such a Robber’s nest and his victory at the polls would come to nought.
One often hears people expressing the confident assurance that Zim could not happen in RSA. Maybe they should consider the attack on private property, the judiciary, the Scorpions, etc. and reconsider their confidence.
It’s easy to set a trend with this amnesty nonsense and special treatment of bigwigs whose puffed-up “dignity” would be deflated. Richard Calland doesn’t want Judge Hlophe’s hearings to be media circuses as it would “offend the dignity” of the judiciary! It’s high time bigwigs learnt that they are not above the law. Now’s a good time.
Normally I’d agree with you, but recent events suggest that the main way Hlope’s and Zuma’s supporters et al operate is to ignore the real issues and make inflamatory statements that make headlines. Perhaps we need to trust in the process that the JSC will follow and let them run it without media present. Then again…
Why would you need amnesty for a crime you deny committing?
You have said it all!
And WHY would South Africans want their country controlled by pardoned criminals, just because Traps is too blind and frightened to see any alternatives?
Paul Whelan,
Can SA transform itself into a Western style multi-party democracy? If it can, then it will unique in Africa.
Mandela never believed in “Western style multi-party democracy” for post apartheid South Africa. He believes that everybody should just vote ANC. Sycophants, like Trapido, have missed this point when they wax lyrical about SA’s multi-racial democracy.
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on July 29th, 2008 at 4:18 pm
@blacklisted dictator…”Mandela never believed in “Western style multi-party democracy” for post apartheid South Africa. He believes that everybody should just vote ANC”.
He was right in the first bit: African countries -like EU countries in their development stages- need a “benevolent dictator” to get out of the pit they are in.
The ANC could have been that vehicle if it had behaved as a “benevolent (=caring) dictator”. Pity it did not and still does not. Mr Mbeki and his friends f’d up big time.
You put the most important question of our times. Here’s the briefest of answers.
History is not a ’story’ with a happy ending. There is no guarantee that SA will evolve into a multi-party democracy. Zim - among many other examples - has not. All that can be said is that it will have to start again from here.
Equally, though, since history is not a story, there is nothing to say SA cannot transform into a multi-party democracy (or bi-party democracy, or whatever), even though a majority may presently equate ‘democracy’ with the ANC ruling forever.
Whether SA transforms depends on changes in society and in people’s experience and loyalties, needs and demands; on leadership; on outside influences and on events - which are always largely beyond anyone’s anticipation or control; in short on the outcome of a vast process over time, involving countless unpredictable factors.
On this stormy and uncertain trip, the only rough guide people have is to begin to know what they think ‘democracy’ means - not what their govt. tells them about it. An absolutely key element in this - not of course the only one - is the need for a set of institutions they can use as voters not only to elect their representatives and government but to dismiss them if they choose to.
For all practical purposes, voters cannot do that today. SA is a monocracy at this stage.
No one knows where we go from here. But that is the central political danger all of us face here.
Paul Whelan,
Thanks for your reply.
Of course, in time SA might evolve into a multi-party democracy (as opposed to the current monocracy). The 64 billion rand question is how long such an outcome might take.
I believe, however, that it will only come about when SA is culturally really to imbibe such ideas. At the moment, it is a foreign concept to The ANC political elite.
We are entirely agreed on your point that democracy is a culture, not a ‘method’; and that is why no one can say how long it will take to evolve here (if it does). As you say, the ANC is just one factor that, by the nature of things, cannot help delaying it.
In the circumstances, all one can sensibly observe is that it took centuries to evolve in Europe and that would suggest that it will also take a very long time in Africa.
However, a couple of important qualifications are necessary.
First, today’s world is smaller than ever before in history and the speed at which ideas are exchanged - and, more significant, the pressure to share them - are much greater than ever before. These two factors might accelerate the coming of democracy by ‘hot-housing’ the growth of cultural change.
By way of illustration only - not to make political points - these are major factors in the downfall of Mugabe: he is in a real sense out of step with the times, past his sell-by date in a world which, with many exceptions of course, does not see him as part of the new community of nations that is increasingly obliged to live with one another. In a similar way, Mbeki’s ideas on Aids could not win in the medium term. One does not want to exaggerate this, but it is there.
Second, one cannot fail to see, through the papers, radio, TV, by looking at the new emerging black classes, how rapidly change is taking place in the new SA’s more open society. The young generation that is at the centre of these changes is fitting in with a ‘global culture’ that is not the culture of the former Africa or, let us be clear about this, the culture of the former imperial and racist west either. The world continues to argue and fight, and pockets of resistance will always be around, but it also moves more together today - if not in step - than was possible in the past. We learn from each other and change each other. That is what it has always been about.
It makes answers complicated but it is fascinating to follow - and, in my view, best to follow with a realistic eye rather than an uncritical optimism on the one hand or what might turn out to be an equally misled pessimism on the other.
Lyndall I will read your comment on Francis’ site.
It is an interesting addition :
Would amnesty create another Zimbabwe as suggested?
Would for example it give the ANC impression that if they are given leeway here they can, like Mugabe and Zanu-PF, keep on abusing the country’s patience?
I have done an article for tommorow which disagrees but that doesn’t make your point less valid.
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Amnesty? What for?
The crimes took place AFTER democracy had been restored and the new constitution was in situ. It’s no different today from what it was when the crimes were committed. If they can get amnesty today, they’ll have established a legal precedent to obtain amnesty for the same offences tomorrow.
How can you run a criminal justice system when you are deliberately wormholing it all the time with amnesties because the personalities are seen to be more powerful than the principles?
It’s a ridiculous notion which will Zimbabwify SA in a heartbeat.
Do the crime; do the time.
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