Why is it that at the first sign of things getting hairy, the calls go out to send in the army? Does anyone actually think about the signal they’re sending to our fellow South Africans by deploying troops against these communities?
The current xenophobia problem in South Africa arises, primarily, out of the government’s failure to adequately regulate immigration and deliver on promises made to the electorate. This has occasioned widespread anger among our poorer communities who, in addition to their exisisting hardships, are bearing the brunt of seemingly endless waves of strangers arriving on their doorstep.
The South African Institute for Race Relations sets out nine causes they believe gave rise to the current crisis. It is a well thought out and logical analysis and certainly worth reading.
I fully endorse the observation that calling in the army is not a good idea but for a different reason. It will send out the worst possible message to our angry citizens and create enormous resentment. Put yourself in their shoes. You complain about unemployment, housing and crime and the government’s response to your outrage is to send in military force, rather than the answers to your grievances.
I’m not saying that a strong and swift response is not called for. Just that it should not come from your last resort at this point in time. Gauteng Premier Mbhazima Shilowa’s approach is correct ; this decision falls to the top police management (rather than hysterical politicians).
Instead of playing party politics, it’s time for our politicians to earn their wages. What is stopping all parties getting together as a matter of extreme urgency and agreeing which parties are best representative of each community? If it’s one party or a combination, send their representatives out to negotiate an interim settlement with individual communities.
If they can reach agreement it will open the door for the police to go in and hammer all rogue elements with the endorsement of the community. Identifying criminals as opposed to outraged citizens would then be a matter of course.
It is vital to reach an interim agreement along the following lines :
An immediate cessation of violence and confirmation that anyone who confronts the police will now be considered as hostile. In return, an undertaking from the government that it will revert within an agreed period of time on proposed solutions to the resident’s grievances.
All immigrants who are refugees will be required to live within a designated area agreed between the refugees, community and the police. Any refugee who simply erects a unit of whatsoever description outside the demarcated area will be removed by the police and taken to the designated area.
Because of fears of food shortages, the minister might advise the communities of contingency feeding schemes they envisage should the situation deteriorate further.
Communities and the refugees should put together an informal working arrangement on what jobs foreigners may or may not acquire from now on, or at least until the government has had time to work through this. For the moment everyone retains their existing jobs. This applies to new jobs.
All immigrants and refugees are to be advised of their current legal status in order to allow them immediate access to the police without fear of deportation. This must be relayed to the police as well.
While I’m sure this is a million miles from ideal and can be vastly improved upon, it will give locals and foreigners certainty.
More importantly, with all parties in agreement , the police can then step in and hammer rogue elements and criminals. If you don’t do this you will land up with police arbitrarily trying to decide which are the criminals, the angry residents, and who are refugees who may be defending themselves.
Both the courts and the police must be ruthless in rooting out the criminal element as well as denying bail to anyone who commits violence linked to the current xenophobia.
Two points on capability:
Our police are quite capable of dealing with crime and community policing if they are given clear directions from the politicians, and their resources are better managed. In one trial I ran in Johannesburg Court recently we were told how two and sometimes four policeman are sharing a vehicle at Meadowlands Police Station.
Either we have the determination and resolve to deal with crime or we don’t. If we do, then we’d best start rethinking budgets and mandates to our long suffering policemen. I need hardly remind readers of the current decision to destroy the Scorpions rather than simply make changes in personnel to correct any perceptions of bias.
Our security companies provide vast under–utilised resources which could assist the police. Warren Goldblatt, spokesman for Specialised Services Group, told me that “Methodology must be worked out in terms of a public and private partnership to utilise the resources of the private security and investigation industry which would vastly increase the capability to fight crime.”. In his opinion, this could well provide the short term solution to fighting crime overall. As a means of assisting the police, they could prove invaluable right now.
Between them, and without calling out the army, we will be able to contain the violence. The last thing we need right now is to see the army patrolling the streets of South Africa because nobody can be bothered to speak to the communities and empower the police and private security.
On an even less pleasant note, I appeared on the BBC on Monday night in order to put forward the views of South Africa’s poorer communities. While people were not unsympathetic, I was horrified to learn that our African brothers believe that we are ungrateful to Africa for their help during apartheid, snobs who complain about our jobs being taken by foreigners all the while turning our noses up at those jobs, and generally xenophobic to the rest of Africa.
The guests, calls to the program from Africa, and even the emails kept going on about South Africans as stand–offish, intolerant of anyone who doesn’t speak our languages, and unwilling to integrate with the rest of Africa. Leaving aside the current problems, foreigners are snubbed, abused and ill–treated in South Africa. They believe that a lot of this stems from our ignorance of African and black civil rights leaders who played a significant part in African liberation.
This was coming from countries all over the continent and sends a clear message to us all.
The need to go about educating our kids about our continent is vital if we are to play a beneficial and meaningful role. The time has come for us to take a good hard look at ourselves in the mirror. If you think that you are superior to any person who is a different colour, nationality, language, culture, religion, sexual orientation, gender or howsoever, then the biggest doos at the funfair is you.
As I keep hammering home the solution to other South African’s — and our guest’s — problems is a solution to one of our problems. If you think that having money or degrees or whatever else makes you supererior then best you get over yourself. There are stronger, brighter, better looking people all over the world. The only moron is the one who believes his own crap.
Let us hope and pray that we can all come down to planet Earth so that we can start caring about and for each other, so that South Africa can be recognised for its humanity, not as the powerhouse of Africa. That is the greatest achievement of Nelson Mandela and Archbishop Desmond Tutu — that they are ascribed greatness for their achievements in the field of humanity and not in law, science or politics.
If it’s good enough for them it’s good enough for us.
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80 Responses to “Civil war? Call out the army? Pass the spliff”
Traps, thank God for people like you. I’m sure many people of your qualifications and experience have moved abroad to take up jobs in countries with saner governments. I dont’t blame them at all, but you have stayed, you really seem to believe your country worth fighting for, and you actually are out there DOING something about the situation. This country needs more people like you.
With SA police being para military, there’s not a lot of difference between them and the army apart from not being allowed heavy artillery in built up areas.
And I disagree with the formation of an official Ghetto for immigrants.
These are rarely successful, and usually counterproductive. Remember the hostels for immigrant workers under Apartheid that became isolated forts of bored workers attacking the locals, with the connivance of the Apartheid authorities in a “divide and rule” policy?
Long term success is only founded by encouraging integration and regular renovation of slums, ghettoes and estates every time they begin to fail.
Look at the East End of London, a regular hotspot of racial tension, or Millwall.
As one set of immigrants integrates and leaves, they have been replaced by another over time who then move on.
And to stop ghettos the authorities regularly renovate one bit or another with housing or facilities in a never ending carousel of degradation and gentrification.
Perhaps someone might like to suggest to the SA govt to learn from our mistakes, and after stabilising the situation start putting into practice a ongoing process of redevelopment of slum ares with decent affordable housing and social/community services, allowing intergration and outflow to the wider community.
Rather than bulldozing land for business and middle class shopping centres and motorways and then wondering why the poor get pissed off and dont just disappear whern you destroy the only home they’ve got due to circumstances.
(I would also suggest not taking advice from your northern neighbour about “driving out trash” by bulldozing 700,000 people out of their homes, and if they really dont want to take advice from the West due to political or racial reasons, try phoning up the Mayor of Sao Paulo in Brazil, or Mumbai, or Shanghai etc. etc., about regeneration, and crime ridden urban slums full of people looking for work after migrating from the poor countryside.)
It seems the SA Govt, and the people themelves, really are that out of touch with the world and reality, that this came as a surprise to them.
Apparently because they dont think they suffer the sam problems as the rest of he world since we’re all human and have the same problems with slight emphasis on regional variations on a theme.
(P.S. If you improved the situation in the country to the North 3-4 Million might go home and ease up the problem a bit.)
Enough fiddle-faddling about with all the symbolic “sending of signals”. People are dying at the hands of other people. It’s not the time for signal-sending. It’s time for DOING, and not just appointing yet another toothless committee to “look into” the matter — Mbeki’s standard effete response.
Is it us or you who think we are superior? This post sounds very much like a lecture. Maybe you should LISTEN to the people who phoned in to BBC ! Let The People Speak!
Decend from your Ivory Tower - who is going to police ordinary crime while the police are tied up, perhaps indefinately, in the townships? Your suggestion is great for the hijackers, murderers, rapists and burglars.
The only sensible solution is to send in the overpaid and under utilised army to free off the police for normal duties?
“All immigrants who are refugees will be required to live within a designated area agreed between the refugees, community and the police. Any refugee who simply erects a unit of whatsoever description outside the demarcated area will be removed by the police and taken to the designated area.”
Hmmm, is that a refugee-camp, or a mini-homeland? “Removed by police and taken to a designated area.” Isn’t that exactly what the Nats did to any “Darkie” who dared erect his shack in a white area? No matter what the reason, or how seemingly noble, necessary or justified it seems (“for their own protection”, to forcibly remove someone from an area simply because of his heritage, is absurd. Just ask everyone who lived at the wrong end of the old South Africa.
“Agreed between” will be as likely as Britney Spears winning the mom-of-the-year award. Traps – as an attorney you know a good compromise is where both parties are equally screwed. No one will ever “Agree” on where to live.
We need to address the bigger issues, and that bog issues are not described in the “9 reasons” set out in the document – though valid, they are not the real, underlying reason. In my opinion (and it’s just an opinion) – the underlying reason for this is the unrealistic expectation and attitude of entitlement. The average Saffer “Expects” the government to just give out money, cars, houses, jobs. We get upset when we don’t get it, but it’s okay, we can handle it. What we can’t handle is when Mr. Makwere gets the things we don’t have through the fruits of his own labour.
When the Average South African starts taking responsibility for himself then… oh dear, here I go hammering on again. Sorry, I know I flogged this horse before. Let me sign off now before I become the doos at the funfair.
[Charles Nqakula, the Minister of Safety and Security, told a crowd outside the Actonville police station on the East Rand, that in South Africa, “We want peace”.
“You must help us to protect our people. We must hold our hands together in peace and build our country. The factors causing the blood to spill are not worth it. There are people who might not have houses or jobs, but no one should attack other people. In this country the law guides us. Help us to build a peaceful country so that we cannot have violence.”
Nqaqula then walked away without answering questions.
Residents began screaming: “Mbahambe sizobashaya”, (They must leave. We are going to attack them tonight).]
Instead of saying the factors are not worth the bloodsed, the Minister should have told that crowd that the government has placed their grievances right on top of their list of priorities.
In addition we need stability to begin bringing the relief you need.
Then tried to work out an interim arrangement with them.
To minimise their grievances and then not answer their questions is one of the major problems which can easily be defused by talking to people.
When I say meet and then try implement interim arrangements - I mean today. No papers, committees, think tanks - get in your car today.
Governments main responsibility is the defense of citizens living in South Africa from internal (criminal) threats and external (military) threats. But if the army is not currently being used for that purpose then I see no problem with them assisting the police immediately. The immigrants are under imminent threat and need immediate protection. There is no justification for a delay or refusal to use the army because the poor populace using violence, will be offended. It is not their right to start bullying foreigners just because they are frustrated with the incompetent government they voted into power in the first place.
Army, what army? Not so long ago we were told that they (army) are busy guarding the SA borders. Any success there? I doubt because we wouldn’t have more than one million illegal immigrants in this lovely nation. Some soldiers are scattered in the bushes of Burundi, Rwanda, Angola, etc where would you get the army to patrol the townships?
You further suggest that the political parties must get together “as a matter of extreme urgency and agreeing which parties are best representative of each community” in a perfect world that will be a good idea. Do you really picture DA or UDM for that matter agreeing with ANC on any matter? I’m telling you that combination would just be “petrol & fire”. Instead of improving the situation, they will create more animosity and to add more they will blame each other while people are dieing on ground.
Just leave the situation to SAPS & Metro Police although they are on snail pace.
Siphiwo Qangani with Kangaroos on May 21st, 2008 at 8:53 am
Traps, can you help me answer these questions. Why is Winnie Madikizela-Mandela the only visible leader in the communities where the turmoil is happening? Where are the politicians/leaders? Why is nobody talking to these communities? Is it even correct to call these people leaders?
Here we have a situation where a private citizen can present a raft of suggetsions on how to deal with the problems. Why is the cabinet not doing something similar or at very least calling you in to act as a consultant?
We keep coming back to the same thing …… Government has failed in all the areas that really matter.
How can we possibly hope to succeed when our Minister of Safety and Security mouths a few meaningless platitudes and then scurries away to safety.
The simple fact of the matter is that the “answers” are beyond the intellectual capacity of the various ministers responsible for delivery. That is the very uncomfortable reality that needs to be dealt with.
We need to put the right people into the political and bureaucratic hotseats
When you see a handful of policeman facing a crowd of 400.
When you hear a policeman say that just when they think they have one thing under control another incident springs up blocks away, because of small groups instigating in different parts. The police run frantically through the streets.
When you tell us about how under resourced the police is (yet we should leave it to them).
When we all know that the police don’t cope with current work loads, and will now be set back for a week, two weeks, more?
When are things out of hand?
When 10 people have died or a 100?
How will talks be effective when the violence continues, day after day?
How many days of violence is enough before the violence is stopped. How many more people have to die. Do you not think that some deaths could have been prevented if they had enough resources applied?
The foreigners themselves have started mobilising, you think they think our police is coping and that they are safe?
In the light of the above why would it come as a surprise that people call for the army to come in?
I find it hard to believe that the thug on the street is going to care whether it is a policeman shooting at him or a soldier. Some of those crowds have grown to small army proportions they should have faced superior force instead of given the time to further organise and group together.
From a media perspective it could look bad to send in the army. But from my perspective I would see it as a government taking the problem seriously, especially after so many days. Do you not think people in other African countries needed to see a more serious commitment to this? And if deaths were prevented was it not worth it?
Just a point on ghettos Ali Budd - One of the biggest problems is the arrival of new unknown refugees. If they have a defined area to start up it eases the feeling of being overrun.
This is for refugees to start - Normal immigrants can live where they like.
By organising people you defuse tension and the concern that you wake up tommmorow with 5 shacks built around your house.
Once settled in they can suss out where to go.
In addition all immigrants must be legalised today - gives them access to services - medical and policing without fear of deporting.
One small point : Guys while telling me what you like and dislike about my reasonining try and throw in ideas on how you see us moving forward.
For example if you don’t think demarcating areas for refugees is a good idea how you stop them moving into Alex and just building shacks next to residents at random.
Don’t worry about being laughed at - I’m a Derby County supporter there’s nothing that you will have to put up with that I haven’t had for the last 9 months.
Whatever arguement you push for not sending the army, you still, like your last article, fail to explain what the failure by the ANC government to deliver on its election promises has to do with foreigners. Flimsy excuses is all we get!!! If the municipalities fail to collect rubbish or fail to give people houses, what has that to do with slum dwelling foreigners??? If foreigners are indeed the source of ills in SA, why are black foreigners being attacked only. Come to think of it, what jobs have the slum dwelling foreingers taken from the South Africans? Why are the Chinese and whites from Eastern Europe being spared this argony? I see this xenophobic mischief as not truly representative of the wider South African society and as such it deserves to be severely dealt with, and that includes use of military force!!
The army has been deployed before with successs in the cape. Security companies are just that, profit seeking organisations that have to be paid. Besides it will be the state abdicating its responsibility to private corporate citizens without the powers that the law affords state forces. And besides, who will want to be guarded by people who tend to be overly violent and murderous themselves when striking. it is also a mix of some immigrants and locals that could spell disaster.
When you talk of perception you fall right into the trap that has been South Africa’s problem. Clueless centres of power have all been about image and perception. Out of control Crime is a perception, isn’t, of course it would not do an ordinary salesman any good to state the downsides of what he is selling. Out of control attacks on foreigners are a perception. Is that so.
Indeed image is not everything, the world now knows that the Miracle Nation is in David Bullard’s words the World’s Freak Show. Imagine if there was no Chinese Earthquake or the cyclone in Burma, South Africa will be number 1 on the news items of the World. It is time to be pragmatic, to be decisive both in speech and action. The image of a nation pulling out all the stops to protect foreigners will do better on international television and at home instead of this vote seeking vacillation and double speak.I have heard with a pondering mind some of my fellow Mugabe haters saying Bob would have acted swiftly and decisively. I do not know.
We are seeing the over arching legitimising of violence as a voice. Burn trains, kill non-striking collegues, beat up non boycotting students, kill farmers, commit crime, kill foreigners,so long as you are frustrated. It is not stopping with us, because it did not start with us. It will continue and the revolution will swallow its children.
Group Areas and Job Reservation? Now where have I heard THAT before?
Worked so well last time that we want to do it again?
Mind you I am in agreement with sending in the politicians immediately not the cops or the army. We could start with the travelgate and Arms scandal ones still happily sitting in parliment. It could do a great deal for the future of South Africa.
Just a question: why are Malawians, Mozambicans, Nigerians, Ghanaians, Kenyans etc. being lumped under the name of “refugees”? Just what are the actual criteria of “refugee” status? If people that are here illegally haven’t escaped serious danger (and having a corrupt government that steals all the revenue and resources doesn’t qualify) and don’t contribute meaningfully to the society then they should be deported immediately and the cost thereof charged to their relevant embassies.
Oh and I must be the biggest doos in the funfair because I think not all individuals are equal in ability, that talent and skills are rare should be nurtured regardless of where they come from, that superiority is _not_ indicated by skin color or sex or orientation. It is indicated by good genes, good nutrition, good parental care and education, which produce a proven, statistical verifiable probability of better result. Nor do I believe that all cultures are equal, or deserve equal treatment or respect - those for instance, that relegate women to second class status, those that prescribe genital mutilation of children, those belong on the trash heap of history, or at least that aspect of them. No culture is perfect, all have aspects which are worth considering and possibly adopting. Some provide higher standards and quality of living, liberty and health for all the members of the culture than others. Those, like it or not, should be what the rest aspire to and adopt the good aspects of.
This doos can prove his points on the basis of solid peer-reviewed studies. What supports your conclusions, Traps, besides being politically correct?
Lots of gabbing fellas. Here’s a chance for you to act. Take blankets and ready-to-eat food to where people need it.Cleveland, Douglasdale and especially Primrose police stations.(Or other places) While you are there talk to some of the people. See what they think about bringing in the army. Also find out how they feel about voluntary refugee camps - somewhat better than sleeping in the open? Truth is - Shilowa has ducked the issue - Under Section 201 of the constitution only the President is authorised to deploy the military, it is not a decision to be made by the police. Shilowa should be telling Mbeki to deploy but he doesn’t want to look bad. As for your idea about negotiations Michael, DA councillors conducting exactly such talks in Daggafontein informal settlement last night, accompanied by SAPS when Ekurhuleni Metro cops arrived and opened fire without warning. The spirit of McBride obviously rules. The good side of all this? Last night a stream of suburbanites arriving at Douglasdale police station with food and blankets. That’s been the case at many places - NGOs and DA local structures feeding people and getting them shelter. Maybe spend some time joining them rather than blogging?
Well, talking has proved itself SA’s most effective cop-out in every kind of crisis since 1994. Do the authorities ever do anything else really? It’s the easiest option for them, I’m afraid. Further, they can’t even do it effetively. The only talking ‘competence’ that we experience is in running to the law, ducking, dodging and diving, and of course denying, counter-accusing, and ’spinning’. Why not the army? In fact it’;s about time that lot showed itself to SA. Why not? Is the army in such a mess that it ought to be sheltered and kept out of the public eye? Obviosly the police an’t manage. Then, about the effect on SA people: Remember what a ‘mob’ is. It is precisly that — no more and no less. Foregt about trying to distinguish ‘criminals’ from the rest of the mob. Alas it is an endemic community thing. There will be no short-term fix without clamping down as hard and tight as possible, with the full might of the stae’s authority. And that means send in three or four battalions, plus armour for the powerful effect it will have. Are more deaths and mutilations less important than the sensitivities of our own home-grown murderous mob?
Hi Mike,
What I like about your blog is that you are seeking practical solutions to the current crisis, and this must be commended. However, my opinion (and it is only an opinion) about each of your points is as follows:
Traps: Political parties should come together extremely urgently, agree on areas of parties’ influence (read territories) then meet with the locals of those areas to work out interim settlements.
Barry: There is no significant history of cooperation among our political parties. Even now in this crisis, the opposition parties are going for the ANC’s jugular, playing the blame game. We have no basis to expect that they will cooperate now. The Police should rather continue to try and maintain peace until tempers calm. As for long term definitive measures, we are hopelessly dependent on what the ANC comes up with, until the next general elections.
Traps: New immigrants to be confined by force, if necessary, to designated refugee quarters until they sort themselves out.
Barry: This has not worked historically in the long term as others have commented. In the short term, the danger might be that these designated quarters form attractive targets for arsonists and disaffected people. These immigrants will be sitting ducks. For now, it is unlikely that immigrants who have been chased away under such brutal circumstances will return to live in these same areas. So, people’s living arrangements should remain as it is of today, while government embarks on a massive drive to develop these informal settlements. Surely, a Marshal plan of sorts is imperative now. As for the refugees who are now sheltering in Police stations and churches, let’s involve the UN refugee agency, and other expert bodies who deal with refugees routinely. They must advise us and help us as to the way forward. Personally, I think that the immigrants must be given a choice of being repatriated home or integrated into SA in the long term, while mechanisms are developed to do that. I agree with you entirely that “all immigrants must be legalised today.”
Traps: There should be a working agreement on what jobs foreigners can and can’t do.
Barry: I disagree with this. As one of the comments inveigh, South Africans who have been conditioned to expect government to provide everything for free get upset when immigrants get these same goodies from the sweat of their brow. Besides, foreigners with certain skill sets cannot be banned from using those skills simply because someone else is angry because they are successful.That will be counterintuitive. What I propose is that we recognize these skilled immigrants for what they truly are: a repository of potential development. They could be used as resource persons to train local people in whatever areas where they themselves are skilled. It will require some organization, and much humility on our part, but it can be done.
Finally, I’d like to emphasize the need for mass education campaigns as a matter of urgency. As your encounter on the BBC program showed, there’s much resentment out there from the rest of Africa against us, justified or not. But we must listen and introspect and make changes where necessary. One of Stephen Covey’s 7 Habits of Highly Effective People states: Seek first to understand, then to be understood. This is a Habit that is in urgent demand in times as these.
Great!!!
So we don’t have racism, we have xenophobia.
We can call up Bob McBride but not the army (apart from the discipline, spot the difference).
Anti-white preferences (AA & BEE) are okay but not anti-foreigners.
?
Do you envisage the inhabitants of the ghettoes/locations, oops “designated areas”, being identified by yellow Stars of David armbands or carrying dompass-books?
Anyway, why punish the innocent?
You somehow doesn’t see a link with:
The influx of refugees from Mbeki’s pal up north.
The collapse of the Zim economy thru Thabo-supported (quiet diplomacy = “silence is consent”) land grabs resulting in foregone jobs in the export market and rising food prices thru lack of supplies
Why is this violence different from the “traditional” taxi-violence, ANC-IFP hostel violence, Winnie’s call to necklacing, assaulting mini-skirt wearers?
Mike, dear boy, do you really think that Mbeki wanted Bob to have those arms (he cannot afford, anyway) to beat into ploughshares?
Why do you think that the police, who already (even in the areas where they’re not rotten from the top)cannot stop violence and crime, should be diverted from the little they do achieve to fighting the ethnic cleansing (call a spade a spade).
Either the thugs and hoodlums are confronted by civilians taking the law into their own hands or the state must protect its inhabitants.
You don’t want the army, go and defend the innocent yourself.
And say them as you drop them off to face hundreds of impoverished, neglected, people..
“Listen you useless tossers, this is YOUR fault. This is YOUR inaction. This is YOUR abject failure. This is YOUR grubby corruption. YOU created this mess. YOU are allowing this land to free-fall in utter chaos. Get off your f**king arse, stop ‘talking’ ‘forming a committee’ ‘looking in to it’ and DO something.
That whole miserable, useless bunch, that infest the Union Buildings and Parliament should be made to walk into a township, on foot, without a bodyguard, without their pathetic bling, and explain to real people, spilling real blood, why they have been so absolutely f**king USELESS!
They spend all their time stoking cultural and racial differences, to justify their miserable existences when we, the citizens of this country, just want to raise our families, do an honest job, earn an honest living, and work towards a better life for all.
Wankers.
ps A big up to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela for personally doing something that everyone else seems too chicken-shit to do. The much maligned Winnie is a class act. She has had a torrid life, suffered immense indignities, done some really stupid things, but I have always had a soft spot for her. Good on you Mrs Madikizela-Mandela!
this problem is political and is has been well planned and calculated by the sa government to get rid of migrants.They never like foreigners including afrikaans and english.so folks… be carefull next time this problem will be at your door step in your posh surbabs .but they will do it in another cunny way , including not giving jobs to non africans.
tak5- edinburgh
I am repeating my post from another TL blog because I believe it is relevant to Michaels search for answers
Some of you may have read the book Millenium by Oxford based historian Felipe Fenandez- Armesto published in 1995.
In the epilougue he makes the following observation …..
“South Africas attempts to grow out of racism will be a heroic failure”.
He goes on to say ….
“South Africa is a bundle of large minorities; the differences between black and white, which are potentially violent enough to justify pessimism about the country’s future, are less disruptive that the divisions between historic communities not defined by colour - especially between Zulu and Xhosa. With the best of intentions, the republic has been given the wrong kind of democratic constitution. Her only viable future is as a federation of cultures, not territories, each with a treasury and traditional institutions of its own, each represented in the legislature and government in proportion, not only to its numbers but also to its importance to the state. As it is, even a small error on the side of centralisation will be seen by some communities as an intolerable threat and will blow the state apart.”
Please read that final sentence again
This was written 13 years ago when everything was all warm and cuddly by a man who makes his living reviewing historical trends.
“Some communities” as he calls them have now reached boiling point as evidenced by the violence that has rocked the country. This is all remarkably prescient from a man who did not even consider the additional problem occasioned by the influx of refugees.
Here is some considerable editing –as indicated in brackets- that I think you should consider. Firstly, “If they can reach (an)agreement it will open the door for the police to go in and hammer all rogue elements with the endorsement of the community. Identifying criminals as opposed to outraged citizens would then be a matter of course.”
Secondly, “The need to go about educating our kids about our continent is vital (,) if we are to play a beneficial and meaningful role.”
More importantly, the ANC’s –by its secretary general Mr. Gwede Mantashe- calling for the army to assist in the xenophobic attacks is a dangerous one. Firstly, the army does not have policing as part of its training. Secondly, the army tends to me excruciatingly violent and intolerant, which is really opposite to what is needed in those areas. More violence is not the solution. Government needs to start listening to the concerns of these poor people and according to 3rd degree -and the people they interviewed- it is government’s lack of foreign policy management that has given rise to this situation. Moreover, many questions surfaced when people learnt that foreigners received RDP houses while their South African counterparts were still staying in shacks. The role of government corruption and its failure to deal with it led to some RDP houses being sold to foreigners. The reality of the attacks on the outlook seem as xenophobic attacks however the attacks are a multiplicity of underlying service delivery frustrations which have led to violent attacks and this sentiment was also shed by the ANC’s secretary general.
Moving forward, I am in total disagreement with the third point on handling these attacks. It reads as follows:
• Communities and the refugees should put together an informal working arrangement on what jobs foreigners may or may not acquire from now on, or at least until the government has had time to work through this. For the moment everyone retains their existing jobs. This applies to new jobs.
My concern is why should the community choose which job is suitable for who and who not? What criteria will be used? Who will be responsible for drafting the criteria? Can we trust the reputation and authority of that person, organisation or body? In light of all the legal labour laws in South Africa, is it then warranted that a community develop their own “law”? Does this not undermine the existing labour laws such as the Labour Relations Act 66 of 1995 as amended in the year 2002 and various others such as the Basic Conditions of Employment Act? How will consistency be ensured for the particular list of jobs that foreigners will have to be employed for? How will this list be enforced and who will enforce it? Furthermore what penalties will be adhered to in the event of them occurring?
The issue is that these mobs feel that foreigners have stolen their jobs due to their desperation. In short, for a business person it is cheaper –and most probably illegal- to hire a desperate foreigner to work for him because the employer knows that at a point of desperation “something is better than nothing”.
The community has no legal bearing as far as recruitment, employment and job allocation is concerned. These mobs are frustrated and that is why they consider these foreigners to be stealing their jobs. The fact of the matter is that govt did not have an integrated plan and solution for the overly influx of foreigners who are seeking asylum. Thus the resultant being that these poor South Africans have to forcibly share limited resources with these foreigners.
spot on. my personal call is that if we want to blame anyone for this violence, it’s poor communities taking strain in the face of high prices. it’s because of high energy prices creating so many economic losers. do we fight these disaffected people using the military or do we try to help them. because at some point, possibly, we might be joining them, and then will the military be sent to shut us up?
The point on political parties coming together. I believe that this will not be fruitful in any shape, form or magnitude. This is because, South Africa’s political parties are racially divided and it is because of this very reason that a joint movement of all the political parties will simply not work.
Can you imagine the ANC, DA, FF+, UDM etcetera agreeing on a specific matter? They have failed in the past to unite what will unite them now? Let us put things into perspective, firstly the DA, UDM and the ID have filed a case against the disbanding of the Scorpions which clearly indicates that these parties are not of the same interest and therefore unity will prove rather ideal.
Secondly, when DA leader Helen Zille wanted a meeting with Zuma the ANC decided to put their secretary general Mr. Gwede Mantashe to represent them. The minutes of that meeting: the DA permanently hates the ANC and will do anything possible to get rid of it. Which is why the DA is so adamant about this court procedure according to Mr. Mantashe.
In light of this, how will these political parties sort out their differences in a mere 9 days of violence when they had more than 10 years to do so?
Maybe Winnie has inner knowledge. Is it possible that some of these guys leaking the information to her were former members of the Mandela Football Club?
Z
What caused Sharpville was ” a handful of policemen facing a crowd” - and a much larger crowd than 400!
“The simple fact of the matter is that the “answers” are beyond the intellectual capacity of the various ministers responsible for delivery. That is the very uncomfortable reality that needs to be dealt with.”
You are managing to stay much more calm and focused than I, but you are, of course, right. It IS the government that has failed
@ Chuma
I don’t know where you have come from, but your posts have been great. You are seeing the wood not the trees.
Apparently the Chinese and Asians are also being targeted in the latest waves of attacks. Durban has had some problems with Nigerians being attacked and now Winnie is warning that the next wave of attacks will be on the trains.
Meanwhile, somewhere in Africa, a committee is being formed. ………………..
Community leader up for robbery
21/05/2008 11:15 - (SA)
Johannesburg - A community leader was arrested for house robberies during xenophobic attacks in Emandleni informal settlement in Benoni, East Rand police said on Wednesday.
Spokesperson Captain Gordon Nyathi said the man was arrested on Tuesday after he was pointed out by one of the complainants he had robbed.
He and others allegedly robbed two houses during the xenophobic violence over the weekend, which led to the burning of shacks belonging to foreigners, said Nyathi.
“They would go in and chase the occupants out while assaulting them. They would then steal whatever they could.”
Some foreign nationals ran to the police station for safety and shelter.
Nyathi said the man would appear in the Benoni Magistrate’s Court on Thursday on two counts of house robbery.
The “answer” lies in getting rid of Mugabe and his generals so that Zimbabwe can start its reconstruction. Then the Zim folks can trickle home and there’ll just be fewer of them coming through the border - which will simply remain porous.
Zim after Bob could even result in the see-saw tipping. As this place proceeds to develop as the youngest African country having its teething problems, many South Africans could just end up in Zim and beg not to be treated the same way as the Zims have been treated here.
Stolen Jobs
Eish! While there is a lack of real research, my comment is based on anecdotal evidence in the main.
Lets not forget to factor in the Casualisation of Employment this has thrown a substantial number of workers into the arena of temporary employees with extremely limited security. In general employers have gone down this path to escape the onerous conditions and obligations of current employment legislation and the perception thereof.
Large Corporates have also fostered this process, often called outsourcing but it’s often a ploy to shed them of low skilled labour and attendant problems.
On an even nastier note many small scale employers from an extremely wide range of commercial activity will proudly brief you (white O to white O), that they have stopped employing locals. They utilise non South Africans both legal and illegal. The range of reasons why they do this are the usual - the locals are lazy, surly, they steal they give you grief and you can’t fire them, they constantly take time off, the clinics issue sick notes on demand etc and in sum they have an attitude of entitlement.
And yes I am also guilty, I favour non South Africans because they have proved in general more reliable with a higher level of productivity applied with an attitude that says ‘I want this job’, in the majority of cases. Of course there are many South Africans who work hard and give of their best in the work environment but alas they are not the majority of local employees. Yes, it’s my perception and supported by lots of anecdotal evidence.
But we do have a problem in effect we are reaping the whirlwind of our ugly past colonial dominance – possibly the majority of our local workforce are over politicised and poorly educated, and there is the ‘overhang’ of the white boss owes me, and that’s an inheritance of our history.
I’m not convinced that the ‘nation’ has the will or the desire to turn the situation around – in respect to attitudes and perceptions. One dislikes being negative but let’s start by acknowledging all the issues, as a renowned professor is want to say with alarming frequency of late – “its not good, it doesn’t look good” .
Fortunately Traps you earn your livelihood with your brain and knowledge - a lot of us o’s are down n dirty and work daily alongside the average joe. In general they have a crap life poor living conditions, disease and crime and real fears for their kids. So where do we pin the blame? Or perhaps get real its not rocket science to perceive who is next?
You’re a damn fine writer and I like much of what you present. However, I think that you might be off the mark about holding back on the need to send troops out to support the police.
When your house is on fire you don’t - as the government is currently doing - set up a panel of experts to try to figure out why the your dwelling is now a mass of flames. The very first priority is to put the fire out without delay in order to minimise the risk to life and to limit the damage as much as possible. Once the fire is extinguished then you can send the fire brigade away and indulge in as many enquiries as you wish. Unfortunately our government ministers and senior police brass are busy reaching for their political and blame-fixing fiddles, Nero-like, rather than attending to the the job for which they have accepted responsibility - viz: the safety and security of the people they are supposedly leading. The ‘house fire’ might be xenophobic attacks, or could equally be our porous (non-existent?) borders, astronomical levels of other crimes, rampant corruption, and so on. In every case the failure to identify and correct the problem has only led to a virtual institutionalisation of the problem and failure of the so-called authorities to execute their duties. http://spearpoint.wordpress.com
“# An immediate cessation of violence and confirmation that anyone who confronts the police will now be considered as hostile.”
And people who previously confronted the police were fluffy bunnies? Wouldn’t it be great if we could just tell our attackers to please, “cease your violence”.
“# All immigrants who are refugees will be required to live within a designated area agreed between the refugees, community and the police.”
Unbelievable: group areas act, here we come! And who are we to set up this agreement with? The criminals who are perpetrating the violence? Oh, you mean the people who, for chrissake, should be in JAIL.
It’s not the “community” doing this: it’s criminals. And when the police can’t handle it, you should send in The Army to show The (real) Community that you are willing and able to immediately protect peace and order.
“# Because of fears of food shortages, the minister might advise the communities of contingency feeding schemes they envisage should the situation deteriorate further.”
Exactly the kind of thing a government should be doing anyway.
“# Communities and the refugees should put together an informal working arrangement on what jobs foreigners may or may not acquire from now on.”
You are kidding me. If they’re legal they should know what jobs they can and cannot get. If the precious “community” doesn’t like it they ARE breaking the LAW, and cease to be the community.
I know what we need: an agreement with all murderers that they won’t kill between 9 and 10 pm or on Fridays, in return for tax rebates on money stolen.
“# All immigrants and refugees are to be advised of their current legal status in order to allow them immediate access to the police without fear of deportation.”
Isn’t this done already!?
“This must be relayed to the police as well.”
Whahaha. Oh, this is satirical. I get it. Because wouldn’t it be funny if the police didn’t know the law and deported you for no reason.
We need resolute, almost forceful leadership. We need to show unambiguously a.) we will protect law abiding people and b.) we will not tolerate crime.
@trish: what comes around goes around: it’s exactly your kind of talk that got us in this mess.
@Traps
On your suggestion of an interim agreement:
This is a good solution, although rather late. But, this is a very “short” solution. One important thing to be done “by yesterday” is the implementation of real action towards Regional Integration. Otherwise the origin of the problems will keep feeding SA with these. Pressure all SADC to implement real democracy, real modern economies. Then you will see progress to spread, less people to migrate.
On the distinction between criminals and angry residents:
Any group of armed people, be it sticks, knives, machetes, shovels, umbrellas, or whatever, in this context, should be faced as potentially harmful. They are not armed just because they’re angry. They’re armed because they are willing to harm someone. And so, they should be immediately dismantled by police, and identified.
On the education of our children:
That’s another thing I agree with you. Education is the basis to citizenship. Education is the basis for humanity and civilisation. Education includes not only maths, English, and geography, but also social and moral education, which is another way to say “Respect”. And this should be taught throughout all education levels.
About this education, for sure it’s also missing in other African countries as well.
@Jon - no question it’s time to do - the right thing - immediately.
@Lyndall - As I have always been down in the trenches (90% violent as opposed to white collar) I’m a million miles from the Ivory Tower.
@ Gerry and DaveF - Don’t knock a bit of doos at the funfair…wait! I’m confusing this with my subscription to Smut Magazine.
@ Bongi - One of my best mates is an Afrikaans advocate (SC) who was with Winnie in Korea last week for WC2010. He says she was fabulous. As for the others I’m not sure how many are going into those communities.
@ Z - I had a murder case in Protea Court Soweto - My client shot his fiance 5 times. When I got to court there were thousands of very angry ladies wearing “Fempower” on their T-shirts and they were not in the mood for the client or his attorney. The cops were here and there but in the main I was flying solo against all these ladies and their boyfriends etc. I work with the police almost daily and I did 2 years in the army. JLs as a student not qualified. So I have a fair idea what it feels like out there. When I go into Alex, Soweto etc it holds no fear for me. Going into the office if Man United win tonight terrifies me.
@ Gerald Sibanda - The foreigners are in the wrong place at the wrong time. Due to non delivery by the govt. coupled to unrestricted immigration our poorer communities - the biggest victims of apartheid - are now absorbing millions of immigrants who compete with them for resources.
@ Trish - Your point is valid - but I would rather speak of refugees as opposed to illegals. It just sounds kinder.
@ Back to DaveF Different does not mean superior. South Africans can feel proud of their progress and angry where we have duffed it. As a people we do not have any reason to think ourselves superior or inferior to anyone.
These last days of terrible cruelty have been shown on European televisions.
The reaction has been of utter revulsion and, for the first time people overseas are now questionning the freedom given to the “Rainbow Nation”.
South African people cannot expect anymore to be excused blindly for every crime they are committing, as the “good riddance” skilled people are opening the eyes of their fellow-citizen.
The Golden Age of South Africa being a “Martyred Country” and being excused for everything does not exist anymore, as the truth is starting to show.
Since the situation in Zimbabwe is the cause of South African and the neighbouring countries’ unstability and hardship, I would take the army and go to liberate Zimbabwe.
The probleme of refugees will be solved and the Whole of Zimbabwe could start rebuilding itself.
This solution is the only that could make sense as it reverses the destruction process.
Trish has hit the nail on the head. Genuine refugees must be treated as such and taken care of until normality is restored in their country then they must be repatriated.
We all understand what is happening in Zim and hundreds of thousands of these people have left to find a way to feed their families, but they are not refugees.
Help is needed for these people and a solution has to be found but the same does not apply to the many thousands from other nationalities who are here illegally. If we are to have an open border policy (which we have already providing that you do not arrive at an airport because lets face it they are not been policed) this problem will continue to grow and will get out of control.
I have no doubt that the criminal element has been cashing in on the situation but do not ignore the very real threat that many law abiding citizens of this country are fed up of the massive influx of mainly illegal immigrants into their communities.
I have said this before; “people will defend what they see as their own”, and with the spiralling cost of living they are now beginning to resent the fact that many of the illegals are in their opinion, stealing their jobs. This is real and should not be taken lightly, to ignore it could mean many more innocent people will continue to be die.
As for those responsible for the brutal attacks and the rape and murder of fellow human beings all I can say is that they are nothing less than animals. If a dog was to attack a person it would be put down and the same should apply to these animals.
I am a Newcastle united supporter Mike so don’t feel alone, I know the feeling.
There is only one answer, we need to model ourselves on countries who manage this problem effectively, but that means an effective government and no matter if someone does come up with an alternative workable solution it will get messed up by those who are supposed to be doing it anyway.
Lets see what the level minded will say….1st they came for the Zimbos, then the Indians…etc etc until they came to the Whites….lets watch and see the rainbow nation events unfold….
By agreeing to send in the army the President
has conceded that his silent diplomacy has failed.
The army is not going to solve the problem it
is going to put a lid on a boiling pot but
will do nothing to remove the ROOT CAUSE named
Uncle Bob Mugabe.
As soon as the army withdraws the lid is of and
the pot will boil over again.
Sorry but your suggestions suck big time. Firstly, if implemented, some time from now we will have to listen to a new IBE act (impoted black equity act) or similar, or a new Group Areas Act of 2008 which adresses the problem justfied in the same light as the BBBEE act of 2004. So I say the SAP need to addres the problem in the given framework of our current laws
There’s no doubt that a swirling hyper-aggressive bloodthirsty mob of 5000 are just not going to be intimidated into meek submission by a force of 50 swivel-headed, wide-eyed, flak-jacketed policemen wondering what the hell to do.
Put a battalion of soldiers with assault rifles and steely-eyed concentration in front of the mob, locking and loading on command and the angry mob mood WILL be utterly different.
We know that government and business corruption is central to this problem. The solution to this problem lies in the hands of the ordinary South African. We have to change; we have to do more for South Africans who do not have a chance at a better life right now. We can help to restore the dignity of our fellow South Africans. We must create more jobs. We must help others in order to help our country. Our fellow citizens also have the right to their dignity. What will we do to ensure that it is restored?
As for this constant accusation from African countries about how they helped South Africans to stay in their countries during the apartheid era, please we understand that and are thankful, but at no stage did you have 10 million refugees storming into your country and taking your local citizens jobs on mass. The reality is that there are a large percentage of foreigners who are involved in crime, so do not talk down to South Africans. We support more economically active Zimbabweans in South Africa than Zimbabwe does or any of your economies do. Whilst the majority of you SADC leaders hug Mugabe and share strategies with despots our poorest citizens are paying the price for your ineptitude.
“Take the army and liberate Zimbabwe”
Great idea - but would have to be done under the auspices of SADC, AU or UN.
I listened to Morgan’s spokesperson on SAFM yesterday. He says the terrorising going on is not the professional Zim army, but thugs in army uniforms which have been stolen and given to them. Could apply to the police as well. The professional army and police might even welcome Morgan.
Traps
I have been invoved in a number of court cases. When in court there would be no time for anything else - dawn to midnight working with attorney and advocate.
You are posting a blog a day, and keeping up with comments, and appearing on BBC. Are you still practicing or do you now do journalism professionally?
@Traps, @Geri “As a people we do not have any reason to think ourselves superior or inferior to anyone.” - that’s a straw man argument to evade trying to defend a piece of PC claptrap. I’m not really surprised, because your original contention is intrinsically indefensible. This one is also one of those silly statements that sounds good because it uses emotive semantics. ’superior’ just means ‘above’ or in this context ‘better’ and ‘inferior’ = worse. And just what the hell are ‘a people’? An undefined grouping that means what the hearer wants it to? Now let’s try Traps’s high sounding straw man with non-emotive terms, and defined groupings: “As a football team we do not have any reason to think ourselves better or worse than anyone.”
That may be very comforting to you this morning Traps, but it isn’t true. All football teams are not equal, and neither are all people or cultures. ‘All individuals - regardless of skin colour, religion, gender, wealth or orientation should be treated as equals before the law. We will permit that mental capacity and provable psycological illness are mitigating circumstances.’ THAT I will buy into. An individual claiming to be better than someone else merely on the basis of grouping (even if that grouping is Mensa) is merely a desperately insecure individual and an idiot to boot.
Sorry to demolish the PC safety net, but ‘equality’, pass one, pass all are actually at the root of South Africa’s problems. I understand where it comes from out of racial discrimination, but to claim all individuals are equal is not only wrong, but removes all incentive, and doesn’t solve the problems of the past either. I am perfectly content to accept that another individual, who happens to be black, female and gay might be better at maths than me. But all people are not my equal. Some are better at some things and some are worse.
Anyway to return - as you requested - to your ‘what should be done.’
1)Set up fast - using the army (the army can and should be used for civil emergencies - not just combat. It is good for their status in society and good for society) if need be - a home affairs office at every township and squatter camp with the capacity to issue papers making all Zimbabweans refugees granted temporary asylum for 6 months and full work permits. This serves a number of purposes - firstly says to the violent perps “you’ve achieved the opposite of what you wanted.” It would also serve admirably to focus the world’s attention on the volume of the Zim refugee crisis, and prevent exploitation of zimbos - which will make labor competiton far more fair. And we assume the moral high ground, hard to assail. No job reservation!!
2)Immediately ask the UN refugee agency to oversee the construction of OPEN refugee camps (which anyone with refugee status papers could access, and leave at will) and help with supervision and distribution within these camps. No group areas!!
3)Dismiss, with immediate effect, the ministers responsible for the underlying problems. Home affairs, Education, and trade and industry would be my recommendation. Do it loudly and publically for failing to address the problems. Tell the public and the appointees that they have six months to achieve certain clear goals (which will help to deal with the underlying problems) or be fired in turn.
4)Do an immediate show of force in the next potential trouble spot (and if Kasarils doesn’t know where that is, fire him too). A thousands strong military or police parade would - without conflict - make most people think twice.
5)Use the footage of the incidents to clip ‘wanted and reward’ posters for as many individuals as faces can be identified.
However this excercise is a waste of time as our dear leader and the present government have never yet met common sense or effective governance they couldn’t ignore, corrupt or claim was ‘racist’.
I would just like to say how thrilled I am that Man United won the Champions League…I would like to but I’d be lying like a dog! Even the Valoid doesn’t touch sides with the nausea of watching Manure and their fans!
My form I’ve now got to go into an office full of those dogs! I wonder if the president will let me use just a small platoon to shoot….
Lyndall - I very seldom use advocates. I appear in High Court as well.
My biggest problem as these editors will tell you is I exhaust people.
At the moment I write for Thought Leader (my main blog) plus I am helping Nick van der Leek on My Rosebank to get it launched by writing articles from time to time
@cerebus
If you’d said anything constructive in your post besides being sarcastically holier-than-thou about Traps’ attempts at finding workable solutions, I would perhaps have respected your opinion.
Author: geejay
Comment:
Don’t be too surprised that others see you South Africans a little as we see Americans. You do display extraordinary arrogance in your dealings with smaller or weaker economies than yours. You use economic levers to manipulate your local trading partners in an attempt to un-even the playing field. You protect your COSATU monopolies and cartels by imposing tariffs on your competitors if they become too good for their own good. You manipulate and distort the Southern African regional marketplace to suit your own ends and you back-stab anyone who you perceive to be an economic threat.
Sometimes its easier to see the truth from an outsiders perspective.
Even in the most dire situations some people seem to be able to find an opportunity for humour.
The following gem is from Essop “Monty Python” Pahad…..
“We need to understand that xenophobia has historically been used by right-wing populist movements to mobilise particularly the lumpen-proletariat against minority groups in society.”
“Lumpen Proletariat” is hot on the heels of Irwins “human instrumentality” as the zaniest political sound-bite of the past year.
Lyndall got something for Traps big time. Is possible not to be so blatant about it? Let the man make the world a better place. Stop trying to be Delila on Traps.
If you go and read on other sites (perhaps less elitist than this one) what some people are writing, you start understanding that sickening hate is the reality behind the all process. No political group is behind this avalanche of hate.What is happening now is a take over of law and order, a revolution created by a group of monstruous elements.
If it was politically inspired, “they” would attack the rich in Sandton, or the rich foreigners, or the rich blacks in their 4×4…
Wherever I read, I do not see any organised help being put into place or asking for help.
I believe that Medecins sans Frontieres, the Red Cross and others are involved…
My friends in France want to help the REFUGIES.
To whom can they send money?
Bruce, your comment was incredibly practical. This must be the wisest solution to the problem, at the moment, stated in a way that reveals that a bar-room education may be worth far more than some of the drivel we get from the “intellectuals”.
I must say that Bruce is saying loud what everybody is thinking in silence. Perhaps Winnie, after all, could be our next President.
She is perhaps not OMO perfectly clean, but she could be perhaps better than somebody else who plays the race carte. And she is a WOMAN…I believe in the strength of a woman leader, not in the pathetique women / men-followers who are bleeding dry the country.
The army is a tragic necessity to get back law and order. The question is - will they stand down when told to do so? They are not very happy chappies with the leadership.
It is sad that it took such tragic events to get people really involved in their country. Martial Law.
Bonginkosi - you are right. Our leaders do not know how to lead a country. All they excell at is sloganeering, creating new euphemisms, and words unknown in any Encyclopedia I have read.
They are useless and leading us into destruction. I hope you will not put your X there once more.
Where else? I know and agree. I have decided at very long last, to cast my vote [if still alive and kicking]
for any bloody opposition party - to strengthen a truly weak opposition. If only more people would shock the ANC by actually “reducing their overwhelming majority. ” A good scare in this way JUST MIGHT have some effect and with luck and Divine Help - Wake up to the real world that is not as comfortable as theirs.
As for Mbeki; who? He does not live in our RSA. We do not truly know him. He resides in his luxurious plane and on an entirely different planet ruminating on his African Renaissance. I did think, at the time, that he spoke this euphemism, that he was blowing bubbles into the wind. I am so right in hindsight.
Incidentally, the borders are not patrolled by the army - the SAPS and I mean “saps” said they did not need them.
Our borders were effectively controlled by the previous government with electric fences and Military.
Human Rights violated? PC.
If that enigma Mbeki, in his own wisdom, had not thrown out everything at once; clean sweep transforming and kicking out everything. ex-white ideas and skills - all at once - we will not be in the poo as we are at present. Sorry. But people need to be trained to be in charge. Poo falls downwards and we are in it.
Motlanthe is a very wise man. Oh so insightful. He “says he needs to learn.” He is humble and to his credit. He refuses, in his wisdom, to believe in ‘his invincibility and know-all’ style of the little man who runs the disaster unfolding, whilst the lackeys slumber.
Here is hope for the future - I hope!?? Or is he a voice in the wilderness of his party?
As for our YOUTH.
What can I say? They are a law unto themselves. Not prepared to work - that is for idiots. A nice Managerial Post with all the perks and a waBenzi - given courtesy Mbeki, would cease their demonstrations.
Maybe Zuma with due pressure from ANCYL, who will toyi toyi for that RIGHT and ENTITLEMENT, oblige the thugs. Our illiterate youth should be forced to read ALICE in WONDERLAND because that is where they reside. Alternatively be compelled to attend a Camp that will teach them life’s reality and how to conform.
Quo Vadis South Africa? Here is my scenario.
I pray sanity prevails between Zulu and Xhosa Chiefs. The ANC is provoking the sleeping Dragon!
Mudslinging is lethal to a Zulu’s inherent pride and dignity. Do not cause offence without justification!
The Zulu will fight back - they have never, and will never run. They will fight until dead and die happily with honour. The youth will obey their culture.
Do not provoke the Afrikaner pride - they fought the might of the British Empire with biltong, horses and a German rifle [forget the name of it- o.k. for me to forget, I am old.] Consulting Engineer will tell me no doubt.
The Afrikaner has a “do or die” “maak n plan” mentality exactly - like the Zulu. They never surrendered to the bloody Rooinecks. Push them too far and they will instinctively revert to their ancestral memories. The middle aged men of today are highly trained, very disciplined soldiers.
Do not wake the sleeping Tiger! and Dragon!
“South Africa, the land, will drown in its own blood” -
the words of CREDO. [I think Munto is his name and lives in the OFS]. He was forbidden in 1990 to speak anymore on this. My aging brain has never forgotten those words.
@Traps
Your submissions always inspires me to throw in some comment. I like your style, i think you are always trying to come up with solutions to problems, i also think when ideas flow into your mind you go straight to the keyboard and start typing. Of course you never claimed to have done any research for what you say. your only shortcoming is that though you always ask for comments and suggestions you most of the time want to stick to your position.
Now, what i mean by a researched article is, most of the time people confuse the words, immigrants(someone who comes from abroad to PERMANENTLY live in another coutry) and refugee(someone who has been FORCED to leave their country, espeially during war).We should also get to understand that both the two groups can either be in the host country either legaly or illegally. their status is determined by the question of whether their stay has been formalized by the relevant authorities, say home affairs. It is also worth understanding that some refugees…either out of sheer ignorance fail to notify govt officials of their stay. Others know quite well that being registered as a refugee means they cannot have some rights,eg of looking for employment in the host country so they will deliberately not register their status…and thereafter integrate themselves with any community that readily accomodates them.
Again those immigrate, can be of legal or illegal status. Legal being when the govt knows of your intention to permanently stay in the host country…applying for citizenships or permanent residence permit. Illegal status at times comes with how one crossed into the host country-gazetted or ungazzeted point…and failing to renew residence permit,workpermit and or visa…either intentionally or out of ignorance.
Now let me get to my point, Traps, our communities need to be educated on how to deal with both these groups. our communities are very accomodating but up to a point that they get overwhelmed by foreigners. Food for thought.
Now concerning having separate communities for foreigners…NO! You risk a situation of people developing a spirit of entitlement,(if the foreigners can be provided with that why not us!), you fuel the same xenophobia you are trying to fight(Foreigners cant stay with us or cannot be amongst us) and this basically is a very short term solution.
Now, did i hear anybody say south africa is a land of possibilities, yes, in fact the ad was flighted on TV minutes back, and it is flighted across all Africa! And somebody does not see this as inviting anybody down there?! So long term solution, do away with townships…No, not demolishing the whole lot but speeding up the distribution of land. every South African should be guranteed the right to own their own plot, shelter. BUT WHERE IS THE LAND! It is well available and the govt should wake up and with speed never seen before redistribute land, it is long long overdue. If i have my own demarcated and fenced plot nobody can just come and pitch up a makeshift house in my plot…which leads me to the conclusion that those who harbour illegal immigrants can be identified and the law can then take its course. Unlike a situation where people donot have traceable residential addresses…this then leads to the next point-if you come into RSA you should provide details of where you are staying. You should be traceable. Then illegal foreigners will easily be identified and because communities have been educated on how to treat foreigners nobody will complain. This education i envisage will focus mainly on the possibilities that abound in SA that bring people from as far as china to SA.
Next, economic refugees from Zim.
Traps where i accuse you of sticking to your convictions…it is a fact that sanctions have been imposed on Zimbabwe(read the Zimbabwe economy and Recovery Act of 2001)…I stated elsewhere that it is the ordinary citizens of Zimbabwe that bear the brunt of these sanctions! it is a well known fact that though we can be made to believe that there are targeted sanctions on certain individuals in Zim, we dont see them suffer anyhow as a result and we actually see mugabe still travelling to Europe, invited by a member of EU, we see Mugabe travelling to the UN. But the fact sanctions against any country only bring untold sufferings to innocent citizens. So please Michael while demonising ZANU PF, Mugabe and his associates lets also make the world to see how much sanctions are making Zimbabweans suffer. I am not a suppoter of Mugabe nor ZANU PF but i will die fighting fo the poor. Please never forget how the same innocent poor are dying as a result of an illegal blockade imposed by Israel on Gaza. Their only crime being to vote HAMAS into power. It hurts!
Traps and Gerry
I wish you wouldn’t use that horrible ‘doos’ word.
You know, I have one of them and it feels as if you’re degrading me.
And that’s sexism, you know.
You can delete this comment when you finish reading it. I only want someone to know, go and look on the Citizen “what you say”
Well spoken people, who speak good english, therefore educated scream for blood, some want 1000 dead…What is happening?
My daughter helps run a pub in london. It was full of Chelsea fans last night - and chaos broke loose. Broken furniture - white on white violence, beating up a guy in the parking area. My daughter and her partner climbed in - and threatened to close the pub and turn off the TV. It worked!
I agree with you that using the army is overkill, and it has already (even as a suggestion) hurt South Africa internationally. You make a number of good points. However, the idea of designated areas, as a number of respondents have said, reeks of past abuses that we would prefer not to revive.
Much of the problem is 3,000,000 refugees from our neighbouring country to the north, which, unfortunately we have been at least partly responsible for, due to our president’s inaction. That means we do have a responsibility to them. But to put them in designated areas, whatever that means, is pretty much a continuation of that bankrupt policy. Either we continue it and accept the consequences of immigration, legal or not, or we change it. Of course if our economy were strong enough to absorb 3M refugees without conflict, things would be different. Pie in the sky would be nice also.
4 Alan:
Quote:
Sometimes its easier to see the truth from an outsiders perspective.
I heard it said; that when asking how a fish tank looks, don’t ask the fish !
Also, sorry about our trade unionism’s bad regional effects. It too has resulted in increasing poverty over here, because it really only helps those who already have a job. There are no unions for the jobless because they can’t pay union fees.
It funny how all those who were joining the chorus in condemning Zim election violence suddenly lost their tongues when SA took over ! Its all about forming subcommittes etc etc…And most comments are more concerned about ‘EUROPEAN TV’s airing the violence, not about protection of human life.
Its now 42 dead and probably rising, if the army is overkill, at what headcount should a normal country turn to the army, 100, 250, 1000, 10 000 maybe ? It would be interesting if the targeted were fair skinned, East Europeans for example….would the comments be the same ?? Mind you some genuine locals Vendas are victims too…I thought as much…..this is only the beginning….and judging be the inequality etc issues, those days may well be on their way, except, the migrants will no longer be there to provide a soft target..
On one picture of the man burning we see the broad SMILE of a cop watching.
This is not a picture of the Mail & Guardian as the heads of the people on their photos are cropted.
Since the whole world is already OUTRAGED by this barbary, perhaps M&G should not try to protect the monsters or It will be associated with their dids.
Now that the involvement of the police into the so-called xenophobia becomes more apparent as days pass, I think it is time the public start to know the truth…as one picture is better than 1000 words.
Up to now I did not have a name to call Them.I called them “they” or whatever…
I came accross a word this morning that jumped into my mind and it just stood there in all its clarity.
The Word is HYENAS. This name is the one I am going to call Them when I will be telling about Them.
In French, a hyena is called a “hyene”, a word very closed phonetically to the word “haine” which means “hate”.
The Hyenas are not stopping, too stupid to see that the world spit on them.
And the World hangs its head in shame…What have we done? we have liberated hyenas…
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Traps, thank God for people like you. I’m sure many people of your qualifications and experience have moved abroad to take up jobs in countries with saner governments. I dont’t blame them at all, but you have stayed, you really seem to believe your country worth fighting for, and you actually are out there DOING something about the situation. This country needs more people like you.
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