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	<title>Comments on: Obama, Clinton or McCain face a great depression but who&#8217;s talking about poverty?</title>
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	<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2008/04/01/obama-clinton-or-mccain-facing-a-great-depression-but-whose-talking-about-poverty/</link>
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		<title>By: cool down.</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2008/04/01/obama-clinton-or-mccain-facing-a-great-depression-but-whose-talking-about-poverty/comment-page-1/#comment-24402</link>
		<dc:creator>cool down.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 18:58:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2008/04/01/obama-clinton-or-mccain-facing-a-great-depression-but-whose-talking-about-poverty/#comment-24402</guid>
		<description>The poor will always be and have always been with
us,that is why we pay taxes to enable the Government to alleviate poverty.

No Government can give anything, it first has to
take something before it can give something, but
it should do so without killing the goose (economy)
that lays the golden egg,if you do,Zim is not
on the moon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The poor will always be and have always been with<br />
us,that is why we pay taxes to enable the Government to alleviate poverty.</p>
<p>No Government can give anything, it first has to<br />
take something before it can give something, but<br />
it should do so without killing the goose (economy)<br />
that lays the golden egg,if you do,Zim is not<br />
on the moon.</p>
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		<title>By: South Africa Blog of the Year - ThoughtLeader.co.za : Barack Obama 2008 &#124; positively Barack</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2008/04/01/obama-clinton-or-mccain-facing-a-great-depression-but-whose-talking-about-poverty/comment-page-1/#comment-24333</link>
		<dc:creator>South Africa Blog of the Year - ThoughtLeader.co.za : Barack Obama 2008 &#124; positively Barack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 13:51:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2008/04/01/obama-clinton-or-mccain-facing-a-great-depression-but-whose-talking-about-poverty/#comment-24333</guid>
		<description>[...] are a few of his latest articles: Obama, Clinton or McCain face a great depression but who’s talking about poverty? Hillary Clinton: Experience in watching genocide ignored or just lying in wait? Barack Obama echoes [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] are a few of his latest articles: Obama, Clinton or McCain face a great depression but who’s talking about poverty? Hillary Clinton: Experience in watching genocide ignored or just lying in wait? Barack Obama echoes [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Lyndall Beddy</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2008/04/01/obama-clinton-or-mccain-facing-a-great-depression-but-whose-talking-about-poverty/comment-page-1/#comment-24242</link>
		<dc:creator>Lyndall Beddy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 23:24:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2008/04/01/obama-clinton-or-mccain-facing-a-great-depression-but-whose-talking-about-poverty/#comment-24242</guid>
		<description>I read somewhere that most people live lives of &quot;quiet desperation&quot; That has always stuck in my mind. Wish we could find a way out!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read somewhere that most people live lives of &#8220;quiet desperation&#8221; That has always stuck in my mind. Wish we could find a way out!</p>
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		<title>By: Ivor D</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2008/04/01/obama-clinton-or-mccain-facing-a-great-depression-but-whose-talking-about-poverty/comment-page-1/#comment-24202</link>
		<dc:creator>Ivor D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 15:03:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2008/04/01/obama-clinton-or-mccain-facing-a-great-depression-but-whose-talking-about-poverty/#comment-24202</guid>
		<description>With regard to the US poverty gap and impact of the credit crunch, an important and overlooked aspect is that it is the working poor who are the most leveraged. 

Those earning just above the poverty line are not eligible for state sponsored social security benefits and have been mercilessly targeted for heavily backloaded credit vehicles - be those personal lines of credit, teaser credit card rates with high limits and the almighty adjustable-rate homeloan (mortgage). With all of those pigeons now coming home to roost, there is going to even more crap in the US pigeon house - regardless of whom the next incumbent of the White house is. Come to think of it, that could be the reason why they call it the &quot;White house”: that’s where most of the present pigeon droppings are being composted.

SA and other developing economies are particularly vulnerable to this type of contagion if they continue using easy (poorly collateralized) credit as a mechanism for economic empowerment and growth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With regard to the US poverty gap and impact of the credit crunch, an important and overlooked aspect is that it is the working poor who are the most leveraged. </p>
<p>Those earning just above the poverty line are not eligible for state sponsored social security benefits and have been mercilessly targeted for heavily backloaded credit vehicles &#8211; be those personal lines of credit, teaser credit card rates with high limits and the almighty adjustable-rate homeloan (mortgage). With all of those pigeons now coming home to roost, there is going to even more crap in the US pigeon house &#8211; regardless of whom the next incumbent of the White house is. Come to think of it, that could be the reason why they call it the &#8220;White house”: that’s where most of the present pigeon droppings are being composted.</p>
<p>SA and other developing economies are particularly vulnerable to this type of contagion if they continue using easy (poorly collateralized) credit as a mechanism for economic empowerment and growth.</p>
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		<title>By: Lyndall Beddy</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2008/04/01/obama-clinton-or-mccain-facing-a-great-depression-but-whose-talking-about-poverty/comment-page-1/#comment-24177</link>
		<dc:creator>Lyndall Beddy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 13:24:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2008/04/01/obama-clinton-or-mccain-facing-a-great-depression-but-whose-talking-about-poverty/#comment-24177</guid>
		<description>Owen
What about the Kibbutz system? Much more African. Let &quot;The Village&quot; teach the child if the mother can&#039;t. Covers education as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Owen<br />
What about the Kibbutz system? Much more African. Let &#8220;The Village&#8221; teach the child if the mother can&#8217;t. Covers education as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Owen</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2008/04/01/obama-clinton-or-mccain-facing-a-great-depression-but-whose-talking-about-poverty/comment-page-1/#comment-24095</link>
		<dc:creator>Owen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 01:08:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2008/04/01/obama-clinton-or-mccain-facing-a-great-depression-but-whose-talking-about-poverty/#comment-24095</guid>
		<description>I should have added this quote:

&#039;Teach a man how to fish and he will feed himself for life. 

Feed a man fish and you will feed him for life.&#039;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should have added this quote:</p>
<p>&#8216;Teach a man how to fish and he will feed himself for life. </p>
<p>Feed a man fish and you will feed him for life.&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: Owen</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2008/04/01/obama-clinton-or-mccain-facing-a-great-depression-but-whose-talking-about-poverty/comment-page-1/#comment-24094</link>
		<dc:creator>Owen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 01:03:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2008/04/01/obama-clinton-or-mccain-facing-a-great-depression-but-whose-talking-about-poverty/#comment-24094</guid>
		<description>A number of points

1. Poverty is a state of mind. One is only poor if one perceives that someone else is rich. That is, there has to be a rich person around for others to feel poor and individuals (not governments) make themselves rich by taking steps to do so.

2. To solve inequalities one has to reduce everyone to the lowest common denominator. That is, the rich must pay the poor and become less rich. So addressing inequalities does not work as communism and socialism have shown.

3. Child grants are NOT sustainable as it leads to a population explosion by creating professional mothers. A women with 10 kids gets R5,000 pm. The tax payers cannot sustain this and it will lead to more poverty. The solution here is to give women(guardians included) who are not tax payers a mother grant of R2500 pm regardless of how many kids they have. This will promote single child mothers, raise household income and reduce poverty.

3. Social upliftment and redistribution strategies like BEE is confined to people who can afford some shares at reduced prices and the companies have no further commitments to uplifting the people. The companies also know that the shares will over time be sold and revert back to normal wealthy shareholders. That is, BEE is a short term strategy that will benefit the rich in the long term.

4. Education is key. We should have a national education revolution where the poorest kid gets a quality education. Instead of BEE, companies (and individuals) should get tax relief by having to invest in schools and student bursaries. Just think of what will happen when say Checkers or BHP Billiton puts money into a &#039;poor&#039; school and erects advertising boards to declare its social commitment. The school will suddenly find that it has to perform as it will be under the spotlight of big business.

One cannot eradicate poverty due to its relative to rich status BUT one can raise real household incomes. 

Governments in general are usually too busy playing power politics to worry about poverty as the poor generally have no power until they become the overwhelming mass - eg Zim, Czar Russia, Nazi Germany, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A number of points</p>
<p>1. Poverty is a state of mind. One is only poor if one perceives that someone else is rich. That is, there has to be a rich person around for others to feel poor and individuals (not governments) make themselves rich by taking steps to do so.</p>
<p>2. To solve inequalities one has to reduce everyone to the lowest common denominator. That is, the rich must pay the poor and become less rich. So addressing inequalities does not work as communism and socialism have shown.</p>
<p>3. Child grants are NOT sustainable as it leads to a population explosion by creating professional mothers. A women with 10 kids gets R5,000 pm. The tax payers cannot sustain this and it will lead to more poverty. The solution here is to give women(guardians included) who are not tax payers a mother grant of R2500 pm regardless of how many kids they have. This will promote single child mothers, raise household income and reduce poverty.</p>
<p>3. Social upliftment and redistribution strategies like BEE is confined to people who can afford some shares at reduced prices and the companies have no further commitments to uplifting the people. The companies also know that the shares will over time be sold and revert back to normal wealthy shareholders. That is, BEE is a short term strategy that will benefit the rich in the long term.</p>
<p>4. Education is key. We should have a national education revolution where the poorest kid gets a quality education. Instead of BEE, companies (and individuals) should get tax relief by having to invest in schools and student bursaries. Just think of what will happen when say Checkers or BHP Billiton puts money into a &#8216;poor&#8217; school and erects advertising boards to declare its social commitment. The school will suddenly find that it has to perform as it will be under the spotlight of big business.</p>
<p>One cannot eradicate poverty due to its relative to rich status BUT one can raise real household incomes. </p>
<p>Governments in general are usually too busy playing power politics to worry about poverty as the poor generally have no power until they become the overwhelming mass &#8211; eg Zim, Czar Russia, Nazi Germany, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Lyndall Beddy</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2008/04/01/obama-clinton-or-mccain-facing-a-great-depression-but-whose-talking-about-poverty/comment-page-1/#comment-24068</link>
		<dc:creator>Lyndall Beddy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 18:19:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2008/04/01/obama-clinton-or-mccain-facing-a-great-depression-but-whose-talking-about-poverty/#comment-24068</guid>
		<description>No political system works

The scum always rise to the top and are in control</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No political system works</p>
<p>The scum always rise to the top and are in control</p>
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		<title>By: Mandrake</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2008/04/01/obama-clinton-or-mccain-facing-a-great-depression-but-whose-talking-about-poverty/comment-page-1/#comment-24042</link>
		<dc:creator>Mandrake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 13:58:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2008/04/01/obama-clinton-or-mccain-facing-a-great-depression-but-whose-talking-about-poverty/#comment-24042</guid>
		<description>What about the fact that a lot of brothers and sisters are sitting in townships entertaining alcoholic habits who are fit and able to do basic manual labour? What about the young girls who are falling pregnant at alarming rates so they can get a grant?

i think poverty in the south african context is more difficult to &quot;solve&quot; because of its many facets. Maybe we need to identify why so many young ones dont WANT to do to school. Many of them don&#039;t want to work. some espouse to be like Bra Joe(local gangster pseudo) or someone down the street, wear nice flashy italian golf-shifts and drive VR6s or GTIs(tsotsi rides).

The is a social stigma linked to our poverty. Its called entitlement. its what i fear will ensure that this poverty beast hangs around for awhile.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about the fact that a lot of brothers and sisters are sitting in townships entertaining alcoholic habits who are fit and able to do basic manual labour? What about the young girls who are falling pregnant at alarming rates so they can get a grant?</p>
<p>i think poverty in the south african context is more difficult to &#8220;solve&#8221; because of its many facets. Maybe we need to identify why so many young ones dont WANT to do to school. Many of them don&#8217;t want to work. some espouse to be like Bra Joe(local gangster pseudo) or someone down the street, wear nice flashy italian golf-shifts and drive VR6s or GTIs(tsotsi rides).</p>
<p>The is a social stigma linked to our poverty. Its called entitlement. its what i fear will ensure that this poverty beast hangs around for awhile.</p>
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		<title>By: vonani chauke</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2008/04/01/obama-clinton-or-mccain-facing-a-great-depression-but-whose-talking-about-poverty/comment-page-1/#comment-24035</link>
		<dc:creator>vonani chauke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 13:41:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>i dont have a clear reason that what kind of poverty are you talking about but let me say i think obama he can talk about it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i dont have a clear reason that what kind of poverty are you talking about but let me say i think obama he can talk about it?</p>
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