Dearest Ivo,

You have been going on quoting my name as one of the people who have accused you of being a “racist.” It is time that this stopped, now, because I am t guilty of calling YOU that.

All I did was to refer interested readers to your blog, “Vindication of racists.” You had done a wonderful, insightful and effective job of putting the spotlight on such characters. I cited the article as an example of what I was not talking about.

So, your continuing to say I called you a “racist” is a misunderstanding. If I did, I would apologize. But, fortunately, my conscience is clear. Stop using my name in vain.

With respect,
SM

(Report abuse)

Hello Ivo
I haven’t contributed to your articles with contra arguments because I have agreed with what you have said. Your ideas on politics, economics, history, racism, all that, I think wise. So it is with this article, except for one point: censorship.

South Africa needs to hear all its voices, including the racist filth. If a forum like Thought Leader wants to paint the world pink and rosy; then sure, go ahead and censor. If not, you better be mature enough to deal with the ugly side of humanity.

Yes you need to suppress off-the-topic ranting, hate-speech and insults. However if South Africans are grown-up, they recognise these for what they are. There is no need to censor. If you do so you are insulting us by implication. For what you are saying is: South Africans are to childish to deal with their reality.

There are pointed arguments, veiled in what at first impression seems to be an insult.
Sometimes unending rambling holds crafted work and fine observation. And hate speech can take various forms. I will not be the judge of these and frankly I despise people who think they can, hence my personal conflict with Riaan.

I have contemplated how to enable a “mirror of society” without degenerating into a Sunday Times type website. My solution is simple. Make four columns, head them On-Topic, Off-Topic, Insults, and Hate-Speech. Then slot each opinion you receive from the readers into one of these four columns. However if you do insert a readers opinion into the latter three, do highlight in red that part which Thought Leader judges to be off-topic, insulting or hate speech. That way your readers can make up their own minds about fellow contributors.

Regards;

(Report abuse)

Ivo I have always maintained that the primary issue that white supremacist is whinging about is that the government is black. To them corruption, misgovernance, Eskom issues etc is secondary.

If I am wrong, then why were they so silent pre 94 when the government then was also corrupt and misgoverned monumentaly, when eskom did not supply electricity to most of the population ?? Where was there whinging then ?

I could even go as far to say that they will be more happier living under a white corrupt government than a black government that is not corrupt. In my opinion though, a government that ensures that its members have a certain skin tone is fundamentally corrupt.

(Report abuse)

Conservative intellectuals and politicians are supposed to be a very important part of a democracy. They are supposed to contribute a lot of wisdom and knowledge to the public debate. But in South Africa the right wing, especially the white right wing has a bad name, because of this nonsense. I mainly hold Dan Roodt responsible for this. You cannot take an opinion that is in line with conservative opinion in the UK or US or elsewhere, and you’re immediately tainted because you are associated with these people, and they associate with you.

(Report abuse)

Well put Ivo, well put!

(Report abuse)

@ Sandile: I’m sorry if I misunderstood you, but your paragraph seemed squarely aimed at me:

The current Eishkom rolling power failures have worsened the situation by making people who believe everything they read in the press bolder in uttering racist statements about the failures of a black government (See Ivo Vegter: “Vindication for the racists“.)

If that wasn’t meant to accuse me of “uttering racist statements about the failures of a black government”, my apologies. I’d ask that you’re a little clearer about your meaning next time.

@ Roland: Interesting suggestions. As I pointed out, I disagree with the constitutional prohibition on hate speech, on philosophical grounds. But that doesn’t mean a private website is required to permit it. As the racists are fond of saying: “right of admission reserved”. Sadly, my experience is that despite one’s best intentions, to keep a forum or public debate valuable to the majority of its participants, the operator needs to exercise a modicum of judgement and control.

So let’s hope my long-winded attempt to say “shut up” works.

(Report abuse)

Ag Shame, don’t hide behind crap.Are you feeling
so down trodden that you have to resort to a bit
of white racist bashing.

I am now going to qoute from an email from a person
I have never met,know very little about and encourage to read the M & G. (By the way I know
he is not ‘Lily White’ but also has,I believe,
some Red Indian blood.)

Here goes: Certain Parts deleted to protect his
identity and mine, because I had my share of cranck calls from misguided people.

‘ Good to know that you’re OK. I can’t comprehend
living in fear and uncertainty everyday. I try to
be tolerant of everyone and 99.99% of the Blacks
in the US are good normal people(( How I wish
I could say the same-)my remark))

It is that small remaining group that gets all the
bad press and makes whites afraid of the general
black population.

If the sort of incidents…were to become widespread here you would see wide-spread vigilantie-ism (think that is spelled correctly as
almost happened after-9-11-2001 to any moslems
who happened to be around……

I realise that whites in SA are a minority but I am surprised that as a group nothing has been done
to ‘fix’ the situation. I guess there are a lot of
things I don’t understand and starting a ‘race war’ would not be good.Everyone leaving problably
is not possible and would destroy the country.

I my daughter were subjected to such violence,you’re right,justice is mine sayeth the
angry father. We have a defense called ‘temporary insanity’ and a jury of my peers would most likely
agree……

Say hello to the family and be careful out there.’

His reaction having read M&G: Annatomy of ctastrophe was as follows:

‘ I would recommend a generator and lots of petrol
as a short-term fix at home. Long term,move
somewhere with electricity maybe? Or live in the dark and really get angry. No way for a civilised country to live. After all, SA is not bedrock & the lasts of the Flinstones died off there millions of years ago.( Sorry for the sarcasm but I just can’t see how a power generating company can forget to order coal; It’s like McDonalds forgetting to order meat,)

So what does this tell you about the impression
created through a liberal paper as M & G .Just
as well he is unable to read Afrikaans,it might
frighten him away for ever.

So who are the racists out here,those who dare
to expose or those who put on their rose coloured
glasses and say go away and don’t come back. You
decide. By the way don’t come back and say my pen
friend is a moron, because he is highly qualified.

(Report abuse)

Initially, I thought that Ivo, you had lost it and become an anti-racist bigot (ie one who sees racism first instead of normal debate). However, I went back to Alison’s article and wow was there a racial slanging match.

But I did note that there was as much give as take from both sides of the racial divide.

So I don’t readily agree with your solution to the problem.

Perhaps over time as people read other views we will come to accept each other better.

Perhaps right now people are clearing their chests, so to speak. Perhaps once that has happened more serious debate will occur.

(ie are we not going through a phase of ‘growing up’ on these blogs.)

(Report abuse)

OK, Ivo, fair enough.

Trouble is, it’s easy to call someone a racist, or a Nazi, or anything you like, when they piss you off on the Net.

And trouble is, it’s easy, when one’s ranting on one’s weblog, to go over the edge and start sounding off like a racist. Frankly, I think you’ve done that sometimes.

But fair enough. We all have trouble between our brains and our mouths. Good on you for writing this.

(Report abuse)

There may only be “3 or 4″ on this or that blog, but white racists can be found on every South African blog, or blog dealing with South Africa. Within a few postings the things sink in a racist mire. It would be nice to think we’re all lovely nonracialists with just a few rotten apples, but it seems clear that over time, white racism emerges as far more pervasive than we perhaps thought or were prepared to admit to.

Exactly the same point applies to black racism. Neither excuses the other.

(Report abuse)

Well said Skin colour has nothing to do with comptence.
Just like you I am sick and tired of both camps those who say if we complain of incompetence say that as a white man i am a racist, also the whites
who blaim it all on skin colour.
Maybe they should make The shackled Continent reading at schools to enlighten the youth upcoming to make correct decisions later in life.
Thanks again for your article

(Report abuse)

Well Put Ivo.

Thanks a lot for this, I am glad that there are at least people, especially whites who can see through these evil people.

Me as a black person end up telling them to f**k off and immigrate so that we can at least come up with constructive critizm and safe South Africa if it is going down as they claim.

If they think they’ve got the skills and they will be taking them with, then so be it. All we ask for is critisizm that is going to help build this country.

You see party’s like the NNP, DA etc should be ran by people with your kind of thinking and then they will attract majority of black supporters, but because of issues that they have against a black person, they are not about to that, or their pride won’t allow them to.

Once again thank you sir.

(Report abuse)

Ivo,
The foundation of your truth, my truth and the real truth - with all given the opportunity to freely express themselves and a mature citizenry making their own interpretations is what characterises a true democracy .

(Report abuse)

Ivo; admirable effort.

Tragically, it is a little bit like taking a whizz against a sea breeze. Pretty soon, the drops will be spraying you.

All I can say is that the ability to record, interpret and analyze new information (an essential requirement to changing one’s mind) requires brains. Anyone who, in 2008, still thinks certain races are inherently inferior clearly does not have one of those.

(Report abuse)

Ivo… Since 1945 German society has said shut-up to everything that even slightly suggests, what they perceive to be right-radical ideology. The result is a constant battle with underground elements. Gullible youths find it fashionable to associate themselves with these elements purely because it is verboten. This makes German society even more hysterical.

For example it is impossible to publicly discuss the virtues of being a -, and the macro economic importance of, housewives, just because the Nazis said; woman belong behind the stove. (See the scandal surrounding Eva Herman on Wiki.) In short, all objectivity is lost.

Germany experienced 60 years of economic wealth; as a result, Nazi elements remained on the fringes of society. These pathetic characters have no reason to be “angry” right-radicals because everybody is comfortable. However a large part of contemporary white South African society is in danger of sliding to the ideological right, because their way, and standard of life is perceived to be, or is in very real danger.

Some contributors might behave like kids looking for attention, by screaming brainless slogans. However it’s unlikely that people who read the Mail & Guardian’s Thought Leader are unreasonable, incurable fanatics. The very fact that they contribute to this forum shows that they do doubt themselves to an extend. As such they can still be reasoned with, unlike the silent and brooding, truly dangerous fanatic, the Wit Wolf type.

I would not tell them to shut-up, because they would just swallow their bile and take their hatred somewhere else. As a society we run the danger of turning these characters into something far more scary. The media should do there best to prevent that.

Yes, Thought Leader is a private enterprise, which can chose to publish whatever it deems appropriate. And yes, Thought Leader is in danger of being abused by political parties and ideologies. However as a thought leader; stand by your name. Lead us to reason and enlightenment. South Africa dearly needs it.

(Report abuse)

An interesting article that leaves me completely torn.

I think i am probably pretty typical of a white male living in South Africa. I do not consider myself a racist, and believe very passionately in the equal value of all races. Furthermore, i find the prejudicing of an individual because of the colour of their skin utterly offensive and unjust.

That said, i have made, and will continue to make, comments that can and have been misconstrued as racist. I am guilty as charged of bringing race into my arguments, but if i am honest, that is because i genuinely believe that racial issues are at the heart of a lot that is wrong with South Africa, and that until we have a society that can move past race, that will continue. In this the government must take the lead, but they are the worst offenders.

As a white male i feel very prejudiced against, i see deep seated racism at the heart of much of our governments policies, and i see many ‘Thought leaders’ who have significant connections with the ANC (our government) spouting racism unashamedly on their blogs.

I only moved to this country 3 years, and i suspect that i have become significantly more racist since my arrival, and that makes me really really mad. I honestly feel that i am forced through government policy, and much more so by seeing the more radical effects of its deployment on the ground, into making choices or even taking sides between my race and that of others. The government is dividing us on grounds of race, and i am a white male, what must i do? I want a non-racial South Africa, but i have no political voice, every complaint i make is judged against the colour of my skin and branded racist, i am presumed to have benefited from apartheid, even though i never set foot in the land until 11 years after it finished, and brought my money with me to invest in this country.

On the other hand i see a government riddled with incompetence, supported by people who will not face up to that incompetence because of the colour of the governments skin.

In general, the vast majority of black contributors to thought leader blogs (and it is great, although frightening, to read them) refuse to see any wrong in the government, refuse to acknowledge the history of mismanagement and corruption throughout Africa post colonialisation, and its disastrous effect on poor Africans, and refuse to see short fallings that need dealing with, short fallings that are often deep rooted within African culture.

Everything is blamed upon, racism, apartheid and colonialisation, and this is a massive barrier in ensuring that lessons are learnt, and that South Africa does not become the next African disaster.

Ian Smith, in his book (brilliant book if you have not read it) states the the success of a country is ‘directly proportionate’ to the size of its white population. Similarly, the longer a country was under the white rule, the greater the prosperity of its black people. - These things, however unpleasant, are facts, and we need to understand why and learn the lessons, so that all Africans can benefit in the future. I do no believe this has anything to do with a ‘white superior race’, but there are issues in African culture that lead to corruption, incompetence, and failure, and the evidence is undeniable.

To that end, whilst i cannot agree with all that ‘Consulting engineer’ and ‘eagle’ and co say, their dissenting voice is vital, otherwise the real issues will become drowned (probably already have) in a torrent of political correctness.

South Africa must not be allowed to fail, together all the peoples of the rainbow nation can achieve anything, but we must be honest about our faults and failings, and we must leave the politics of colour behind. Alas the government must set the example in this regard.

(Report abuse)

About time that vociferous racist lot were told to butt out. They have been making reading TL a pain.
Thank you

(Report abuse)

I really believe that one way to flush out the supremacists / racists on both sides, is to insist that people only publish under their full names. If you believe in what you have to say then surely you should put your name to it. When I reading these Thought Leaders I tend to go straight for the comments where people have used their full names. It is called “courage of your convictions”

(Report abuse)

Dear Ivor,

In your recent piece you write that:

“Finally, we know the filthy crevices from which they launch their forays. Now we know the pseudonyms by which they go, which organisations they belong to, and what they believe in. Now we know the white supremacists who hang out here on Thought Leader.”

Why dont you come out straight and tell us who you are talking about. Such sweeping condemnation! One does not quite know where to draw the line on who is acceptable and who not.

Just to lighten up the atmosphere and help us decide whether it is still OK to criticise government and have an opinion, could you provide us with some guidance here?

Kind regards,

(Report abuse)

Comments on politically sensitive blogs go bi-polar. It is an unfortunate phenomenon of the medium. If you don’t moderate (censor), the crazies take over, because the sane people just couldn’t be arsed to wade through all the flames.

(Report abuse)

@Ivo

As you know nobody takes advice, so here is a point of view.

Consider that if you believe the ANC government has been incompetent, say where, say why, and get out. As if we were all the same colour.

That is how government performance is dealt with anywhere racism is not the overriding issue.

Do not let racists hi-jack the debate. It is their stock in trade.

Let them have their say. Let everyone read it.

Let everyone decide where (s)he stands on it.

(Report abuse)

Ivo,
Well lets just say we got off from a wrong foot in your last post. But i must say, this one was refreshing. Actually, i have profiled the fellas whom now i skip everytime i read comments to posts. Consulting Engineer is one of them. Infact in yesterday’s post by Kriel i wondered what kind of engineer he was when he square off with Bonginkosi. He is deplorable. He spoils a good argument. I agree with you on socialism and communism. Thats why i’m peplexed by the new leadership of the ANC. Strangely i went to Varsity when marxism was the way of being and i must say i came out unscathed and infact my neo-liberal leanings blossomed. The current corruption in govt is as a result of these lot who on one hand spew communism/socialism rubbish but on the other behave and crave for capitalist trappings. But really the white supremacists really spoil good debate that Thought leader was intended for. Well done..

(Report abuse)

@amused reader

Please do elaborate what on the following comment from your post:

Quote
but there are issues in African culture that lead to corruption, incompetence, and failure, and the evidence is undeniable.
Unquote

Because if the above is true, then it can’t be Black people’s fault; they are inherently corrupt by the accident of birth. Stretching the argument, it would also be safe to say if what you say is true, then it would be totally unfair to expect Black people to abide by and adhere to the White uncorruptable standards. Right? You still following?

So what is the fuss about, my good man? Why don’t you throw me a million already? It shouldn’t matter; it’s in my blood to be corrupt, right?

(Report abuse)

Ivo, I salute your bravery and your clarity of thought. In fact, they overshadow poor Alison’s rather ham-fisted, but well-intentioned attempt.

How do you know your blogs are having an impact? I struggle with the same conundrum. The question mirrors much of Hamlet’s arterial theme, doesn’t it? But day by day I am growing wiser on the fruits of not merely hearing the contributions of others, but letting them filter through ever-finer sieves until only the truly worthy come through.

Sometimes shaking the bush and making a noise are necessary to flush the quarry into the open, but the hunter must then be quick to instantly recognise the real prey, take aim and bring it down. You catch a lot of fish with dynamite, but you really only need one or two.

I’ll never forget a photo a friend - much older than me and a war correspondent for AP - brought back from Vietnam years ago - in fact, it was one of numerous pix which he put into a photo-essay on the grunts’ views captured in graffiti on various walls. This one sardonically read: “A sucking chest wound is Nature’s way of telling you you’ve been in a fire fight”. Sometimes social commentary is similar.

Keep strong - we need you more than you know.

(Report abuse)

@ Bonginkosi

Glad to answer, but for the record, remember i want Africa, and South Africa in particular to succeed, that means us all, black, brown or white, so please don’t just dismiss my opinions without some consideration.

My personal opinion is that the issues that derive from African culture, and that negatively impact upon the welfare of African people are as follows;

1. Deferring, out of respect, to those more elder and senior than ones self, irrespective of whether the recipient of said respect is either worthy of it, or whether it is in the best interest of the people. - Examples of this behaviour can be seen by the reception given to Mugabe, where despite creating horrendous conditions for his people, and lowering life expectancy by from 55 to 34, he is cheered as a hero by some African nations, or offered quiet diplomacy (Copping out) by others. Nearer to home, how about Tony Yengeni being carried on the shoulders of members of the government as a hero, into prison after being convicted of fraud, or even Jacob Zuma being elected leader of the ANC with the pending court case, and the fact that Shabir Shaik has been found guilty, upheld on appeal of soliciting bribes on his behalf (I don’t care if he is innocent, he must at least step down and clear his name - common decency demands this). This deference invites corruption, denies accountability to the people, and is frankly idiotic, not to mention highly destructive.

2. An unwillingness to consider that many of the problems facing African nations are of the making of Africans themselves - This is not to say that Africans haven’t suffered at the hands of others, they have, but so have just about every other nation on earth at some point or other. At some point you have to look in the mirror and say ‘what mistakes did WE make and what can WE do about it?’ Africans tend to focus on what WAS DONE TO THEM, and how can the world MAKE IT UP TO THEM. By taking responsibility for your own actions, you take responsibility for your own future. You become the architect of your own dreams, not a victim of someone else’s. (This isn’t white supremacy, this is belief in the ultimate ability of Black Africans to make a success of their continent)

3. African culture seems to promote doing ‘just enough to get by’. A black academic (sorry, cant remember his name) said, ‘We (Africans) are past masters at re-distributing wealth, we just need to learn how to create wealth’. The evidence of this is devastatingly obvious, in the infrastructure throughout the continent, that can be dated by the time the colonists left, the mess that government departments like home affairs and health, staffed by persons who, in the majority, have no desire to make things better for the poor, under standard and under motivated teachers, nurses, doctors. Those that try and go against the flow, like Pfaff of Routledge end up being disciplined, whilst those that are a laughing stock, like Manto carry on. Most significant is the apathy with which so many Africans see education, as compared to the coloureds or the Indians, when surely all can see that this is the route to salvation for the poor.

I do not say these thing to belittle Africans, i think Africans are wonderful people, they just deserve, and are capable of achieving so much more. They need to hold their leaders accountable, refuse to accept second best from themselves or others, and believe in themselves, then they can achieve anything.

(Report abuse)

Racists are possibly having a field day mocking African government about the whole Eskom debacle .Sure, there was incompetence, poor planning by the likes of Alec Erwin, Phumzile Mlambo-Ngcuka, Trevor Manuel , Thulani Gcabashe , Jeff Radebe amongst others. But there folly was to rely an bad economic advice and relying on the private sector to solve the problem of investment in new generation capacity. So-called free-market interventions are demonstrably incapable of resolving all our problems as the example of the Californian brown-outs and black-outs due to the Enron debacle there

(Report abuse)

Ivo, I would agree with everything you said, if it were not for the continued existence of racist legislation. We all know from our history that racist legislation inevitably generates race-based anger in those who are discriminated against. Its human nature. People do not turn the other cheek when slapped.

(Report abuse)

Clap, clap, clap, Bravooo. Clap, clap. Bravooo

(I hope this increases my chances of having the comment published)

Well, I scrolled through the list of the contributors of thought leader and, oh my, so many pale faces! Where is the quota please? Mmmh, I guess TL is a free-will service so the quota system does not apply here, right?
However I can expect the said list to give an indication of the proportion of white journos as opposed to black ones, can I?

I read the article by Rian Malan on Empire “ The Panelbeater” very interesting, especially for the fact that it was set forth as “UGLY TRUTH: Race and resentment in South Africa’s newsrooms.”

Quote
“When the new [black] recruits turn up in the newsroom, it often turns out that they can’t write either- their copy has also been panelbeaten. So you are back where you started.”
Unquote

And

Quote
“…the keeper of the Sowetan’s black power flame was Horatio Motjuwadi, a steely fifty-something veteran who declined to be interviewed… Motjuwadi’s fans….even they acknowledge that he is fixated on race…. One settler, one bullet, he’ll say it in your face!(sic)”
Unquote

So my point is that the matter of racism is prejudiced at the expense of the whites. On TL’s blog itself, black commentators are free to spew their anti-white hatred without any of you, thought leaders, dealing with it.

It seems to me also that the wrath of AA and BEE hasn’t quite perturbed the media world, yet. You white journos are still safe up there, but I cannot wait for the day when the new black recruits will start replacing you white journos and you will have to scuffle with your fellow witos to keep your slim quota job positions.

At the moment it is just us ordinary whites who get told blatantly in our faces that we are the wrong skin colour for the job. Never mind, that is not a racial issue, I guess!

A word to the wise is sufficient!

(Report abuse)

You want to see off-topic racist comments? Read the comments on Moneywb.

(Report abuse)

Amused reader

Hats of to you,whoever you’re,but I am afraid
whatever you say falls on deaf ears and don’t be
surprised that intellectuals such as Boginkosi &
others will soon call you a racist.

Anton Kleinschmidt and George never have been
exposed to real violence the masses are capable
of. Look at Tshwane University and you’ll understand.

I am not crazy or afraid but I know what they
are capable of.I have seen it and personally I have
taken statements of a wellknown architect who
was held at ransom at the end of every month
by a gang of armed men armed with AK47s,who escorted him to the bank to pay them protection money.

And the ringleader well his docket with all sworn
affidavits got lost at the magistrates court so the
whole process started all over.I got numerous
phone calls threatening myself and my family.

And my younger colleagues, two are happy in NZ,one
in Australia and another last time I heard somewhere in the Middle East.

I cant go because I am far past my sellby date
and fast approaching my 70 and type with two
fingers like chickens picking out mealies.

So when these young upstarts post at these blogs
and let go of a lot of steam and pretend to tell
me what we did so wrong,I do get a little bit
hot under the collar because they haven’t got a
flipping clue of what they talking about.

Most of them don’t even know what the country
looked like back then but pretend that everything
that was achieved was achieved by black labour
which is a half truth because many young men
returning from WW2 were unememployed and worked
like donkeys at coal and other mines for a pittance or joined the army.

Many of them did not make it past grade 10,but had
to give up their dreams and find employment to
support their families.

Let me not take up too much of your time but
honestly with few exceptions most of the thoughtleaders grew up in times apartheid really
developed an ugly face but were nowhere then
thousands of hungry and starving people were
resettled in places like Daveyton on the East Rand
and were fed from the back of bakkies like packs
of hungry wolves because most of them were left
jobless and homeless after the mines closed down and compounds were demolished to make them inhabitable.

Did the mining industry take pity on them,no Sir
the racists white bastard did. Let no one tell
that apartheid had only an ugly face!!

(Report abuse)

@yaj — The private sector could never be relied on to invest in electricity generation because the state-owned monopoly, ESKOM, is exactly that — a monopoly. It’s the only show in town. So, private capital never let South Africa down by not showing up at the party. It was never even invited.

(Report abuse)

Having used the blog to voice various opinions, I have found the responses to be of genuine value when gauging how people feel about issues.
Firstly, we are all on the roller coaster ride of South African politics. From darkest January to the enlightenment of Trevors Budget speech, cleverly punctuated by ‘We are all in this together.’
The government has made some mistakes along the way, which is fine considering that mistakes are the building blocks of knowledge. If this were not so, the Wright brothers would have built an Airbus A380 the first time around.
What we need to do, as South Africans is become less embroiled in the ongoing politicking and more focused on South Africa, the land and its wonderful people…

(Report abuse)

Ivo. Show me one black person that will believe that you are sincere and I will show you 10 million who will laugh at you. There are too many who benefits too much from the current “system”. They will never voice out against any current leadership, mainly because they think (fear)that the sysem of the past will return if they do, and I think that is where you may also miss the point to some degree. Not one person I know of wants the old way of doing things back, no siree, what we voted for was a BETTER life for ALL. Now when some voice their dissapointment in the current system, and wrongly so, refer to bad black leaders, they give voice to their dissapointment in the current system and leadership, and their fear of being trapped in a simmilar situation as the people in all of the other African states. Now this is where you so called Thought Leaders have to read between the lines and “lead” the thinking processes, instead you either sensor a comment or react in such a way as to attract reaction, and like we have seen, some “colourfull” reaction. Stop crying and stop making excuses for being somewhere in the centre “ou grote”. I wonder what will happen if all the whites join the ANC. Will the reality of the BEE situation dissapear, will our kids have equal opportunities then? I don’t think so. So Mr. clever, give the racists and non-racists a valuable alternative, because as long as that vacuum exist we will keep on arguing about nothing realy.

(Report abuse)

Ivo,
Is at all possible for whites in SA to question and criticise the ANC government without eventually being labelled a racist.
Sadly many of us today find ourselves drifting towards the right because of the ANC’s reaction when questioned and criticised by white people (brave enough to do it) as well as their obvious disregard for the value of white competence, experience and contribution .It would appear that they are mostly hell- bent on going it alone rather than learning from experienced whites.
A change in attitude from those in power could bring about an amazing change in white goodwill and contribution.

(Report abuse)

Well from Slavery to World war, Colonialism to Apartheid, Vietnam to Hiroshima Its been White peoples corruption and greed that destroys humanity piece by ‘peace’ so I don’t really listen when they cry corruption. Vlok, Basson, Malan, De Klerk these people squanderd and killed and you tell me black people are corrupt!

Ayi bo!

(Report abuse)

Sabelo, lets try to look at things from a perspective other than race. We all knee-jerk at the accusations and counter accusations…
People are people, not Black people or white people or other people…
One of the funderfental mistakes that the government has made is to have legislated racial classifications in South Africa, enabling us to be classified, by law into race groups.
If we were just South Africans, there would be a lot less ability to point a finger.
I belive that the route forward for SA would be a 2 step plan:
1. Enforce the existing legislation in all government departments. Then;
2. Drop all racial based legislation.
Then we will see unparalleled developement and poverty relief.

(Report abuse)

I think that your tactics of painting people that Consulting Engineer mentioned in his posts with the same brush smacks of gross intellectual fraud.

I have never stated my support for White supremacy, I have only indicated that there is a tendency, and in some instances stated policy, for Afrocentrists in the ANC and South African government to expunge all ‘un-African’ influences, and declared my unrepentant, categorical condemnation of such moves as being the anti-thesis of the idea of the ‘rainbow nation’, which these moves ironically claim to support.

Obviously this point will find favour with those who you, rather clumsily, condemn as racists, as they will see the renaming of streets and the indigeonisation of the economy as indicative of these trends.

Furthermore, you have selectively targeted those you see as ‘white racists’ but have given equally viscious ‘black racists’ a virtual free hand at atacking the character of white individuals on this forum and to make shameful, unfounded remarks against all white people.

Do you think only white people can be racist? Are only ‘true Africans’ allowed to criticise inept African governments? Do racist elements in criticism truly undermine the validity of said criticsim? If you answer ‘yes’ to any or all of the above questions, then I question your right to consider yourself a ‘Thought Leader’.

(Report abuse)

Amuzing to read fellows of the Rainbow Nation talking AT never TO each other. Hey everyone, bugger the deck chairs, the Ship is sailing straight into an ice berg that will drown ALL yes ALL of us and that is a hell of a dumb way to achieve parity.
No censorship of blogs please lets obey the universal law of ‘do unto others what you wish they do to you etc’ ie don’t write down in print that you would not say in a crowded lift filled with people of the ‘oppersite race’.

Brent

(Report abuse)

@ Ivo
Smashing piece: keep it coming

@ Bonginkosi: culture is not genetic, it is a choice. Its not “in your blood” to be corrupt and lazy, but you can choose to be part of a culture that excuses such traits.

@ Cool Down: Boereseun? Is that you? Not tired of trolling yet?

and finally: Amused Reader for Thoughtleader! You have articulated much of my discomfit with certain aspects of African culture. Thank you.

(Report abuse)

@ amused reader

I feel no animosity towards you. In fact I have a lot of respect for the fact that you are able to come on this blog and say the unsayable about what people like you think of us Africans.

I have read your post thoroughly because I do not want to misunderstand you. What I can see is that you have observed certain kinds of behaviour wherever you have been and come to the conclusion the reason people do whatever it is they do has to because of their African culture. I am afraid that you are quite mistaken. I will deal with all three points as communicated above.

1. It is true that Africans in general respect seniority. However, this is generally true of all nations Black or White. But it is untrue that Africans respect seniority at all cost. Let me explain. In my culture, we used to have what we called imbizo (a gathering). At an imbizo (which was largely attended by males) every person except boys was automatically invited. It did not matter what their station in life was and what their age was. The idea was to bring everybody to discuss matters of state and governance. Every single person at an imbizo was allowed to agree, disagree or challenge any of the issues. That is why we Africans are still fond of talking a lot, debate and negotiate. It comes from the imbizo culture. There are famous imbizo’s in our history where Shaka himself was challenged on incorrect decisions made and he accepted those challenges and changed his ways.

Back to present times, seniority has been challenged successfully in recent times. A recent example is in fact only a few weeks old. Thabo Mbeki who is senior in the ANC and also senior by age was challenged quite vigorously by the ANCYL at Polokwane; he lost the position of being president of the ANC. In fact, Mr Mandela himself has recalled many times that the ANCYL challenged quite successfully older and more senior leaders in the mother movement.

The people you have mentioned in your example are populists. Tony Yengeni, Mugabe, Jacob Zuma are all populists. Populists have a way of winning over people by lacing their language with popular ideas of the time. Remember a gentleman by the name of Hitler? What about Mussolini? The people who followed them were swept away by their message of playing to the crowd. Is that the correct thing? In hindsight, no but in the heat of the moment who cares? It seems like the right thing to do.

As can be seen from the examples above, the notion of being swept away by populists is not a uniquely African one.

As a final example, sir, I would like to ask you what you think the service delivery protest that occur daily in SA are about. Are the citizens, especially Africans, not holding their own government to account? So where does this notion that we Africans do not hold our leaders accountable? Did Mr Thabo Mbeki not just lose his job recently because he is being seen as not delivering appropriately?

Your examples, sir, are denuded of context; it leaves your argument hollow and thus incomplete.

2. There is some truth in this statement. However, sir, have you ever heard of this thing called politics? In the corporate world, each manager is given responsibility and has to deliver on that responsibility. However, if things go wrong for whatever reason, the knee-jerk reaction is to apportion blame to other people because you as a manager are just trying to save your own skin. This behaviour is not unique to people who are Black; everybody does that. It is called politics. Or putting it differently, it is called buying time!! It is done all the time all over the world.

With respect, sir, whilst I acknowledge that there is a lot of politics going on with this government, I need an answer from you sir around the following:
 Did this government ever complain about the virtually bankrupt state coffers they inherited in 1994 or they just got on with it?
 Did this government ever complain about the lack of business opportunities abroad for SA Inc. or they just went ahead and formed business relationships and got on with it?
 Despite its shortcomings, sir, did the old regime even acknowledge the AIDS pandemic that was sweeping the country? When this government took over, did it complain about that or did it (badly!!!) put together a comprehensive AIDS treatment regime without ever blaming the old government?
 Despite the shortcomings, sir, did this government not put together a housing policy without ever harping back to the past?
 What about freedom of speech? Did we not just go on and enjoy unprecedented freedom of speech with the media becoming wide open without ever looking back at the old governments shortcomings?
 The tax regime was practically non-functional. It just got fixed and now is extremely efficient. Was there anything said about the old regime while this fix was in progress?

The examples are too numerous to mention. In my experience, we South Africans will play a lot of politics but as they say ‘n boer maak ‘n plan. And that is precisely what has happened up to now. Yes, every now and then, politicians will play politics but we get on with it. Maybe this might be true of other African countries; I am personally extremely critical of the docile nature of those in Zimbabwe. But my experience in this country is that we get on with the job. This is precisely why I find the level of debate and exchange in the last couple of weeks so frustrating; we seem to have lost this can do spirit. And our white compatriots talk about leaving etc. Where is our true South African can do spirit? Why are people threatening to leave rather than take the problems by the scruff of their necks and solve them? These are definitely not the South African I know.

3. Let me state categorically that the Africans I know are extremely acquisitive. I look at history and I see that African culture from where I come from was extremely acquisitive. The number of cows you had showed the amount of wealth you possessed. People learned to trade and improve their lot in a myriad of ways and this was encouraged.

Now I am lost, sir, whether you can show me evidence from whence you draw your conclusions that Africans do ‘just enough to get by’? Most professional people I know, have a little company/cc over and above their jobs which they use to run little catering companies or hiring companies or trading etc.

Can we agree that the most efficient department in SA is the treasury? Is it run by Black people? Are there lots of Black people working there? So why are they motivated and efficient? Is it because they have an unusual gene they renders them unAfrican? No, sir, it is the leadership that makes a difference. There is a school in Limpopo called Mbilwi. This school has produce outstanding results in Maths and Science for years. The interesting thing is they did not have laboratories or any special facilities for the longest time. But they performed. Why did this happen? It is largely attributable to leadership. No, sir, I have to strongly disagree with you. There is nothing inherently African about ‘just enough to get by’.

The last point you make about education is just patently untrue. I have never met a Black person in my life who does not admire and aspire to good education. The only exception to this rule have been Black people who have made lots of money despite not being educated. They would normally mock those who are educated. Bar this, I cannot think of any.

Sir, please conduct this silly exercise: Got to the nearest institution of higher learning next to you and enquire how many Black, Coloured, Indian and White students. You will be surprised. In general, the numbers are staggeringly huge in the Black column. Mr Zuma is an exception; trust me on this one.

Finally, you say that you say these things not to belittle African etc. Well, sir, your last point is extremely condescending; I cringe on your behalf. You have no clue, sir, about the amount of rudeness that you have heaped upon Africans by you so called caring message.

@cool down

Thank you, sir, for your comments. All I know is that you do not know me and therefore cannot even begin to presume who I am and where I have been and what I have achieved. Sir, I am an engineer by trade and I have achieved a great many things in my life. When people talk about moving a mountain, I know what that is about because I have done it repeatedly when I worked in the mining industry. I have since moved on to other things; everywhere I worked, this economy is benefiting from my knowledge and experience. I have a very good idea what makes things work and I am a master at doing just that; making things work. I am older than you think. DO NOT presume to know me, sir, because I will not presume to know you either.

(Report abuse)

There’s a Stupid Filter under development. I wonder if we could get them to make us a Racist Rant Filter. It should be a trivial task, considering it’s already built for stupidity.

(Report abuse)

@ Bonginkosi and amused reader

Both of you have very good points and I have enjoyed your comments more than the rest.

One thing though: Although very generalist ‘Amused Reader’s’ comments sum up how most of the white population see the majority of black people in this country, whereas Bonginkosi appears to be speaking of an educated few, which I think most white ppl will admit to not having any problem with.

And therein lies our problem…Education…which the majority of black people don’t have (unfortunately) and therefore they (and to a large extent us whities) are entitled to lay a large portion of the blame at the previous government.

One thing that really bugs me and is probably the real reason I’m leaving this country…Is it just a law of averages thing Or Do black men have a problem with controlling their desire to rape? With the label of ‘the rape capital of the world’ I don’t think you can argue ‘it’s a small minority committing these crimes. This tendency alone! has caused me to become more racist/scared of black men and want to leave.

(Report abuse)

Boginkosi
Good with your scientific background you should
be able to convince your fellow blog readers
that everthing was not as they thought it was.

(Report abuse)

What a debate. For what it’s worth, here are my 2 cents:

I am a proudly South African white female who grew up at the very tail end of Apartheid. I recognise that I need to stay here and contribute to this society to begin to repay the inconsistencies of the past, even though I had nothing to do with them. I know that the injustices cannot be undone in one or even two generations, but that it will take years of perseverance to attain true freedom for all.

I have enough brains to separate my disatisfaction with certain aspects of the running of the country from any belief that this is related to the race of the people running it. Is any country 100% happy with their government? Those great examples of leadership all have serious flaws, too. Let’s not be blind.

To those who see the “black” regime as being so awful - can you not understand the racism coming back at you from the people who were so terribly downtrodden for generations by white supremists such as yourselves? You cannot honestly expect for that legacy to be eradicated in 10 years?

(Please also note that the Apartheid government were aware of the challenges Eskom would face in the future, yet they did nothing either…)

There is bound to be racism in the government after all that black people have endured under white rule for so long. You can’t change that by whining about it, so please just shut up. You’re only making it worse.

Thank you, Ivo, for calling these people out.

(Report abuse)

Bonginkosi, I do not assume to know you, but I do assume to like you.
Preach on…

(Report abuse)

I presume that I am one of the “supremacists” that you rave about. I will respond in more detail later but for now I have a little challenge for you.

If our postings are as racist as you say then they should be easy to debunk.

So why don’t you then devote some space to highlighting our “racist” postings and then we debate them with you as an active participant which means that you have to change your normal cowardly “sniping from the shadows” tactics.
Unless, of course, you don’t think it is fair that the people that you have been attacking in a number of your columns from behind the safety of your status as “Thought Leader”, should be given a chance to defend themselves.

Just for interest sake, please also tell us what you, personally, have done for the “disadvantaged black people” which we are purporting to be attacking on here and I will let you know the reality of what I do for the people whom I am suppose to “hate” so much. You said my postings were racist, right?

(Report abuse)

@ Ivo

who we really are: At least you should try and know what you are talking about before you go around with further name calling. Here is what we are about from an indepenent non-racial source, a source that monitors all forums and groups:

http://www.big-boards.com/highlight/339/

Stormfront is a resource for white men and women fighting to preserve their white western culture, ideals and freedom of speech and association, a forum for planning strategies and forming political and social groups to ensure achieving this community’s goals.

Do you have a problem with any of these goals? Do you not think we have a freedom of association? Do you not think western culture should be maintained?

I challenge you to find one place on there where Don Black or David Duke advocate white supremacy.

You will see we rank 261 in the world for most popular web sites.

By the way, thansk for the free publicity. I am sure we will gain many new members thanks to thread.

You also show who the true haters are: those that launch a wave of name calling.

(Report abuse)

Bonginikosi

Thanks for the reply, which i have also read and re-read to try and be fair. I take your points, but i can’t help but say that you seem to see the world as you wish it were as opposed to as it really is.

1. If Africans don’t respect seniority at all costs then why do so many leaders over so many countries overstay their welcome (usually by a decade or two!). Do i really need to make a list? Does replacing Mbeki with Zuma and an NEC boasting 33% criminals really count?

2. I think to describe the inability to accept and learn from your own faults simply as ‘politics’ is laughable. Africa is a disaster area, and the majority of countries cannot even feed their inhabitants without aid from western countries. The people have the lowest life expectancy, lowest income levels, worst literacy rates…… It has happened, it is still happening, the people (your people) are suffering. Before you can put things ‘right’, you must understand how they became ‘wrong’ in the first place.

3. If you don’t think it is fair to think Africans tend to do just enough to get by, you are delusional, which brings me on to education, where i think you make you most wishful point. Literacy rates have fallen, continent wide, under black rule, Educational results are currently plummeting in SA, not amongst the whites, or coloureds, or indians, but amongst the blacks.

I do not believe the anecdotal evidence is a very good indicator of the facts, but i am going to share my personal experience none the less. I moved to SA 3 years ago from the UK. I paid for my son to go to the local high school, where the standards are high. I have some black staff, and the schools their children go to are awful. Having spoken to my wife we decided we would pay for our staff to send their children to the same school (English speaking, 1/3 coloured, 1/3 white, 1/3 black). I offered, i tried to perusade, i begged. None of my staff were willing to send their children to a school locally. All the children were sent back to the ‘bush’ to learn the traditional ‘Xhosa’ way, and to be brought up by grandparents. None of those kids can speak English, they will all most likely have menial jobs because they will not have the language skills to make the most of their potential. I explained this, but my staff honestly didn’t care what their kids ended up doing for a living.I was disgusted, appalled, and when i read that the Indians were the most upwardly mobile (in class) race in SA, followed by the coloureds, it made sense. I have coloured staff, if i had made the same offer to them i would have had my arm bitten off, but i didn’t need to they have all taken loans to educate their kids already.

How can you argue about how important education is to black Africans? Surely the children’s own results speak louder than any words, your or mine. Surely the behaviour of African teachers in the last teachers strike speaks louder than words.

(Report abuse)

@ consulting engineer, amused reader, cool down, eagle & others

Thankfully there are people like you that can expose the intellectual dishonesty and the hypocrisy of some of these”thought leaders” and the misguided attempts at twisting the truth by many of the commentators
Keep up the excellent work!

@ the brainwashed ones

Stop being so atrociously lazy-brained; the sleep of reason brings forth monsters!

Your indifference has allowed monsters, beset by greed, to take control of the State.

(Report abuse)

I suggest that the comments are also rated and that the number of votes per comment is disclosed. Most readers don’t comment and this may be because they feel that their opinions have already been expressed. They can add weight to a point of view with a vote.

This would hopefully encourage more participation. It looks like a regular crowd of critics has emerged. I’d like to hear more voices.

It’s an idea to kick around, a bit of democracy in action.

(Report abuse)

Bonginkosi

Re-read your post again, as promised, and i missed this gem

“I look at history and I see that African culture from where I come from was extremely acquisitive. The number of cows you had showed the amount of wealth you possessed. People learned to trade and improve their lot in a myriad of ways and this was encouraged.”

So let me get this straight, while the rest of the world, mastered navigation, advanced mathematics, steam power, the internal combustion engine, flight, nuclear power and space travel, African’s acquired cows!!!!

Well thats that then, obviously ridiculous that i suggest “Africans have a tendency to do just enough to get by”

Does your comment sound silly to you yet?

(Report abuse)

It’s a great pity that the debate degenerated into a white vs. black banter. That’s ridiculous. I would of expected that given the good reporting done by Carte Blanche and others where the real problem of no coal to fuel the generation was discovered and where suppliers, BEE suppliers could not operate at the margins offered to them by Eskom, that new questions would be asked. Perhaps this should have become a debate about when capitalists are out of control. Let’s look at what actually transpired here. They depleted their coal stocks, moth balled generation plants and retrenched workers (who ultimately paid the highest price) all for the sake of reducing input costs so as to attain maximum profits during the financial period. Is it just me or does this not sound like another case of absolute greed?

(Report abuse)

Mark said..
Furthermore, you have selectively targeted those you see as ‘white racists’ but have given equally viscious ‘black racists’ a virtual free hand at atacking the character of white individuals on this forum and to make shameful, unfounded remarks against all white people.

The presumption of “liberals” like Ivo (who self-righteously sanctions the comments by those he summarily categorises and slanders as “racists”) is that all the human races (for the sake of argument lets pretend races actually do exist, Ivo) are inherently “equal” in intellect and ability, and MORALITY, etc.

I emphasise “morality” because racism – at least in its “passive” form (ie, “racist” thoughts, not actions) – is nowadays (although not in the recent past) considered as a “moral sin”, and has been universally denounced by the the faceless “opinion formers”, the pious high priests of modern morality, as a malignant “evil” which must be expunged from humanity.

Now in the wicked past the “thought crime” of heresy was considered the ultimate sin, and good people could and would be denounced as “heretics” for uttering what today we regard as mere trivialities. Once denounced as an evil “heretic”, not even their best friends would dare come to their defence, lest they too be judged as heretics. And so the heretics would be duly tortured and burnt for their “heresy” and in the pious minds of the religious judges (modren day “do-gooders”), the world would be considered temporarily cleansed, until the system demanded another victim in order to keep the fear alive.

Now we fast forward to the wicked present where, in the invisible court of the faceless opinion formers, the “thought crime” known as “racism” has been judged by the pious to be the ultimate social and moral sin of our “enlightened” multi-cultural age. For today it is heresy – nay grand heresy – to think or utter a single “racist” thought. Perhaps a slip of the tongue, a frustration-loaded errant email about your racially-selected AA colleagues at your BEE workplace, or if somehow the media gets wind of your opinions even from a third party, you are finished, esp if you are a “somebody”. But even nobody´s get sacrificed on this altar - like the guy who used the “k” word in an internal email, prompting Mbeki to rant on about white racism – and threaten whites who thought that way - in a speech of supposedly national importanc. Then recently Nobel prize-winner Prof.Ellis – the latest in a long line of scientists claiming blacks to be less intelligent - pilloried and sacrificed on the bloody altar of political-correctness (and yes, PC has killed thousands of whites) for their intellectual courage. Within hours of your heretical statement the full wrath of the moralists will descend on you like the 7 plagues – and in a matter of a few days your career, your livelihood, your reputation, and possibly even your life, will be completely and utterly destroyed. Once denounced as an evil “racist” not even your best friends would dare come to your defence, lest they also be judged as latter-day heretics (racists). Lately, such cases have been occuring with increasing frequency, increasing intolerance, and increasing absurdity. The case of the newsreader joking about “mugging Tiger Woods” is just one of many recent examples.

But I digress.
If the races are indeed “morally equal” then there should be an equal % of black and white racists, give or take a few. IE, to use a favourite ANC phrase, racists (in the workplace or elsewhere) should be “fully representative” of all the people of South Africa. Because if one race is evidently more racist than another, and is SEEN and JUDGED (by the media, opinion-formers, Ivo, etc) to be more racist, then clearly the races cannot be said to be equally moral and equally decent.

Furthermore, as blacks outnumber whites by 10 to 1, if Ivo – and other “liberals” - were truly objective, he should be deleting black racists 10 times faster. Maybe he is, but his comments, idealogy, and general persona, reveal an unnatural bias towards (or is it against..?) white racists. Of course, feigning objectivity, “liberals” will occasionally (almost as an afterthought, which it always is) say something shocking like “blacks can be racist too..!!”

Oooh, really..? What a surprise..? Then pray give us examples….which, to be “representative” should be 10 times as numerous as white racists. OK, I know, because of apartheid, et al, blacks have less access to the internet. But anyway, just be fair and distribute the racism more equitably. Did you not read Khosa´s posts on Allison Tilleys thread..? Or Angry Black Woman, inferentially threatening whites with vengeance, murder and genocide..? Both black posters said things far more racist than anything posted by the unfairly maligned gang of 4 “white racists”.

But the point I have been getting to is this –
Is Ivo so blinded by left-wing idealogy that he cannot see the glaring paradox between his (implied) belief that the races are equal in morality, with his relentless insinuation that most racists, and certainly the worst racists, are white..? Or that somehow white racism is incomparably more evil than black racism..? Because if blacks and whites are truly equal in morality then this cannot be so. Because to repeatedly imply, as liberals and blacks do, that whites are more racist, and thus morally corrupt is. in and of itself, a RACIST BELIEF…! Come clean Ivo, you cant have it both ways.

(Report abuse)

Bonginkosi, What a delight to see some educated and enlightened comment, just a thaught though. Do you not find yourself so far removed (like Mbeki) from the reality of the overwhelmingly majority of the people of Africa, and what they think and do? For your benefit, the ammount of grants to black students have been increased even more, and the grants to white learners have been stopped 100%. Maybe thats why you will find more black students than white students on your campuses, for leaving South Africa, trust me, as soon as possible, because the overwhelminly majority of blacks in this country hate me for being here and for what I can contribute, that is until I hear one black say out loud and with conviction BEE and reverse apartheid is wrong, you will find us leaving, as soon as possible. I don’t expect to have any takers here, that proves that there are too many benefitting from the current reversed racism system to voice out against it. So, no “boer maak n’ plan” stories.Speak out or see our tail-lights.

(Report abuse)

We have touched on quite a raw nerve here havnt we?
Whilst on the subject of ongoing racism, what of Abbey Makoes effort to establish the ‘Forum of Black Journalists’?
Makoe is adament that white people cannot join or attend the meetings of the forum. The modus operandi of the body was to ‘Redress inherent past imbalances which affect journalists as they attempt to work in the public domain’
Now Abbey, white people are outnumbered 20:1 in South Africa. Also, the democratically elected ANC has been in power for 14 years now… so how is it possible that such a small group of reporters are able to hold an industry to ransome whilst the ultimate power base of the country is vested in the democratically elected government.
This is, whether you like this or not Abbey, racial discimination. Period. Now consider this. Based on the existing presedent set by the ANC government, acceptable tactics to be used in the fight against racial discrimination include the planting of bombs in the meetings of the racial discriminating party. So, theoretically, if opposing journalists were to succesfully plant a bomb in a ‘Forum of Black Journalist’ meeting that resulted in the abandonment of this movement, the activist who planted the bomb would then get a prominent street renamed after them…
Makes you think, doesnt it!

(Report abuse)

Eagle

If you and others.perhaps myself as well, are referred to as ‘White Supremacists’ and are wished
away, what shall we call Mr Mugabe, a supreme Black
moderate?

(Report abuse)

I think i have become wrapped up in my sparring with Bonginkosi, and got a little ‘off message’, which is supposed to be about the value of contributions by ‘Consulting Engineer’, amongst others.

I actually find ‘Consulting engineers’ post very thought provoking. Whilst his agenda is thinly veiled (if at all), he tends to come to the party with ‘facts’ and even the source of those facts. Most contributors, myself included tend to be much more ‘generic’ and less specific. I have found myself more than once, checking to see if his claims are factually accurate (usually because the initially offended me), but i have yet to find him to be factually wrong, has anyone else found a factual error in any of his varied posts? (Hats off to the moderator for holding fire.)

Something IS wrong in Africa. We can get very wrapped up in the why, but the underdevelopment of the continent and its people, despite a wealth of natural resources is both startling and undeniable, and something has caused it. Nor can it be either apartheid or colonialism, because it pre-dates both, (and is probably the reason that both could happen in the first place).

‘Consulting Engineer’ draws conclusions that are unacceptable to most people, and definitely very different to mine, but who is to say i am right he is wrong. We at least agree on many of the facts, and i think there are far more denialists on the ‘left’ than on the ‘right’.

(Report abuse)

Stormfront is just an online forum. Get your facts right, your readers deserve better than made up stories.

(Report abuse)

@ vapour

it is not the capitalists that are out of control.

It is the greed and the ineptitude of your black, red aristocrat, friends that is totally out of control and the complacency of their liberal supporters will put the proverbial “last nail in the coffin” of what used to be a functional economy.

AMEN

(Report abuse)

@amused reader

Thanks for putting it better than I can. I keep asking for them to prove any of my facts wrong. Yet they brush it away as hate speech.

Obviously people can draw a different conclsusion, but let us try to at least debate facts.

Most liberals cannot argue facts. Liberalism is more like a faith as it is a belief in ideals. Reality belies it. How they can call facts from places like national geopgraphic ‘Apartheid propoganda’ is beyond me.

How they can call us haters, when they constantly evoke hate and name calling, like this thread is beyond me.

How they can call us narrow minded when we don’t ask them to be silent and they constantly call for our banning or censoring is beyond me.

Truth hurts doesnt it?

They prefer to keep the fiction going that ‘we are all the same’. Yet look at the world and you will see we are all different. To account for that they have to use words like ’supremacist’, nazi etc. Nazis are socialists. Liberals are generally socialists. Most of us ‘racists’ are capitalist and prefer to be left alone by these liberal haters. We want the freedom of association. If I choose to mate and socialise with whites only, and advocate for whites to be aware of what is happening to our race due to shrinking numbers, in what way does that hurt them?

(Report abuse)

@Bonginkosi

I am still waiting for you to find one reputable international source that states the Nguni people originate in southern africa. You are a scientist are you not? Don’t spout slogans. Give as facts

(Report abuse)

amused reader,
Read “No apology necessary “by Rev.Earl Carter to get a religious take on the curse of Africa - it certainly makes you think. (available on kalahari.net)

(Report abuse)

@koyaanisqatsi

“You white journos are still safe up there, but I cannot wait for the day when the new black recruits will start replacing you white journos and you will have to scuffle with your fellow witos to keep your slim quota job positions.”

It is by attacking there fellow whites and ‘racists’ that they hope to keep their jobs. If they said anything percieved as anti-black they would fear losing their jobs. That is not enough. They have to slam white racism even harder than Blacks do.

What can you say about people like that? Not someone you want to share a trench with is it? I would rather be there with a Black troep.

(Report abuse)

[…] counterpoint to a rant against white supremacists I wrote for the Mail & Guardian’s online opinion site recently, I thought this video was […]

(Report abuse)

Draganov 20:1? closer to 12:1 I think.

(Report abuse)

@amused reader

Here goes.

1. Dear, sir, this would be the point where I should categorically say you are changing the subject. We haven’t started discussing Zuma and the NEC yet. We can have a go at this at some future point. Surprisingly, I am no fan of Jacob Zuma. But the optimist that I am, I see a method in the madness. Once again, this belongs to another blog on a different day. Make your point sir but do not change the subject.

2. Once again sir I implore you to READ what I had to say. I have admitted that there is truth in your statement. I am going one level deeper; I am examining human behaviour and I am asking myself WHY?
I think quite frankly it matters very little where the continent is right now because we cannot erase history. What matters is where it is going. I think that is the crux of the argument. Maybe you and I will not be here by then but what matters is that in 100 years’ time we come back and measure whether Africa is still in exactly place where it is again. My take is that it is not all roses; the tide is turning despite Mugabe.

3. Well, sir, can I ask you this. Are literacy rates going down in the UK where you come from? Are literacy rates going down in the Unites States, sir? In spite of the internet and everything else? Unbelievable but true. The areas where literacy rate are going up are largely emerging economies like those in the East right now. Do you know that Zimbabwe possesses some of the highest literacy rates in the world? Shocking not so. To think that education in it’s raw for means very little actually.
I do not know why you had this problem with your staff. It could have something to do with your own personal and internal issues the staff may have with you. Let’s do a racial thing for a little while. It is true that Indians are the most upwardly mobile race in SA. They are closely followed by Africans not Coloureds. (Don’t ask; it’s a VERY long story) The problem with you ‘evidence’ is that it is collected in the ‘wrong place’; it does not translate very well to the countrywide situation.

From my reading of your story, I bet you that you are in the Cape most probably in the Western Cape. The story of the Western Cape is too sordid to unscramble. Some day when we meet for a drink, I will educate you about the Western Cape. That place will take about another 100 years to march into the new SA!! I say that with the greatest respect for the people of the Western Cape; I live there.

Your last comment about cows etc. eish, I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at your comments. History/economics lesson: Economies normally start as agricultural. Then they progress to mining then to manufacturing then to services and finally to information. Lesson over.

I was illustrating what people were like a 100 years ago. You will gladly agree that vast parts of your country, the UK, are still stuck in this agricultural space. It’s noble; the people must eat.

@consulting engineer

I wish you matter, sir, but you don’t. Please employ somebody else to talk to me. You are beneath me; someday I will address you. You are a disgrace to human kind and engineers in general. Snobbish but true.

(Report abuse)

Thanks all, for the great feedback. I wasn’t in the office yesterday, so here’s a rather lengthy slew of replies. You can find specific responses (if they exist) by searching for @Nickname.

@100% Baster: I initially named several, but because of some uncertainty about who was who, I decided to delete the names. Who I’m referring to should be fairly clear from all the mutual backslapping.

@Roland: I agree with the view that suppressing racism merely creates blanket taboos, and is counter-productive. I wrote a column to that effect in the next issue of Maverick magazine, which should be out sometime next week. However, once racism is out in the open, there’s nothing that forces anyone to listen. My view is that public opproprium (such as my “begone” statement) is rather more useful, effective and fair than state suppression.

@amused reader: I feel your pain. It’s hard to make an argument when it is judged not against reason, but against your race. And it’s terribly frustrating to hear apartheid, colonialism or racism made scapegoats for every failing. Even when true (which it certainly isn’t always), it misses the point and obscures the solution. That said, it happens both ways. Describing corruption or socialism as an African problem (as opposed to a problem that happens to occur, among other places, in many African countries) equally obscures the point. Bonginkosi’s reply to you illustrates this beautifully.

@George: Nothing like a bit of Marxism at varsity to convince you that (i) they’re deluded idealists, at best, and (ii) you can’t have a sane argument with them, so they’re no fun to hang out with anyway.

@Llewellyn Kriel: Thanks very much. How do I know they make an impact? I see the spikes (no pun intended) in my readership charts when I hit a nerve or cause a stir. I hear it from people I meet. But mostly, it’s a case of faith, hope and charity. Faith that people will read what you write and take it seriously, hope that they will find it useful in their own thinking and discussions with others, and the charity of doing it for very little (or no) remuneration. Just call me St. Spike.

@yaj: That’s a discussion for another day, but I should point out that at no stage was there a free market in electricity either here or in California. In fact, in both cases, the “liberalisation” or “deregulation” was a mess. In both cases, retail prices were fixed (which is probably the biggest cause for the failure of the attempt to open the electricity sector to the market). In both cases, investors in generation couldn’t sell to whomever they wished. They may have tried to introduce markets, but they weren’t free markets. Which either led to a failure to invest (South Africa), or investment into a market rife for manipulation (California). Using privatisation, partial deregulation, or bungled liberalisation as examples that discredit free markets is a common, but false, argument.

@Draganov: My point exactly. Though that does mean changing some long-held beliefs in government, or changing government, if necessary. We should, indeed, rely on South Africa and its wonderful people, rather than believing our only possible future is in the hands of a coterie of dyed-in-the-wool Marxists, common socialists and occasional crooks. (For JZ, crook: (n) a long staff with one end being hook shaped.)

@Sabelo: All races have been guilty of war, crime and corruption. Perhaps you forget the Barbary Pirates and their penchant for raiding British shipping (and sometimes, Britain itself) for white slaves. Perhaps you forget the raids by black tribes on other black tribes, and the cattle they stole and the slaves they took. Perhaps you forget that Muslims conquered half the world, from India to Spain and deep into Europe, once. Perhaps you forget that Mao wasn’t white. Wars of conquest and domination have been a human failing since time immemorial. As have attempts to expand free trade and commerce. There’s good and bad in all of us. What do you hope to achieve with rhetoric that merely emphasises race, and merely perpetuates the enmity and artificial barriers between people? You say all war, corruption and greed has been caused by whites. How is your position different from that of the Stormfront member who bangs one fist on the Bible and the other on “March of the Titans”, and declaims that all progress worth mentioning has been made by whites?

@Hein: I’m certainly not going to join the ANC. True, they won’t believe my reasons are purely based on economic theory. But then, the DA won’t believe I won’t join them because of the political opportunism of merging with the old NP. What I believe to be the real solution lies somewhere else. It lies with economics, not just racial politics. I’ll formulate a post (or, more likely, a column) on that subject in the near future.

@Mark: Your name wasn’t one of those that I deleted at the last minute, have no fear. In answer to your questions, no, no, and sometimes. I say “sometimes”, because a base flaw in one’s assumptions can (and often does) contaminate the rest of the argument. It certainly weakens it, and leaves it open to be discredited. So on the basis of simple utility, I’d argue that racist elements in criticism may not undermine its validity, but it does undermine its credibility.

@Eagle: I didn’t name you, did I? But by all means, defend away. Just don’t expect me to be an interested participant in arguments about racial superiority or racial shortcomings or even statistical correlations involving race. And that goes both ways: I don’t attach much value to statistical correlations claiming how corrupt or incompetent or inexperienced or stupid a particular race is, and I also don’t attach much value to similar arguments that propose to explain the material conditions of different groups — and remedy them — based on arguments about oppression of some sort or another. I’m simply not very interested in racial analysis of political economy, because I don’t believe there’s anything inherently racial in the arguments of or distinctions in political economy. I’ve seen hard working, enterprising black people, and hard working, enterprising white people. I’ve seen oppressive, socialist, corrupt or incompetent black governments, and oppressive, socialist, corrupt or incompetent white governments. I’m interested in the hard work, the enterprise, the oppression, the socialism, the corruption, and the incompetence. Not in the physical attributes of the people involved.

@Dean de Jongh: I like the idea of a comment vote system. A good example of such a system can be found over at the Wizbang blog. Since ordering based on votes would break conversation threads, you could make it even more useful by creating a plugin that shades comments — from a neutral base colour, make comments lighter if they have more negative votes, and darker for more positive votes. This would neatly highlight valuable comments for people who only have time to scan them, without “censoring” comments readers don’t find valuable.

@Vapour: Like yaj’s comment, that’s a discussion for another day, but I can’t let yours slide without noting that “capitalist greed” is self-correcting in a free market. It is minimised by competition. If you suffer from the greed of protected monopolies, or government-appointed licencees, blame the protection. Blame the lack of a free market, in which you and I would see those profits and (greedily) enter the market to take some of the profiteers’ lunch money.

@amused reader, and Consulting Engineer: I concur with your assessment of Consulting Engineer’s facts. Consulting Engineer, I don’t dispute any of the facts you offer. I offer facts in a lot of my writing too, and they are also selective, to highlight what’s wrong, because that’s what needs fixing. What gets to me, though, is that instead of leaving it at that, or offering solutions, those facts have a nasty habit of ending up in service of racism. Whereas some blacks blame failures on the past or present actions of whites, Consulting Engineer blames failures on the past or present actions of blacks, and uses them to illustrate some generalised notion of the character of the black races. That is, by definition, racist. Worse, neither of those positions is very productive, neither is true, and both are offensive.

@Freedomexplo: Did I say otherwise? I called Stormfront a militant white supremacist group. We can quibble about whether “group” can be used synonymously with “forum”, or whether it needs a physical presence to become a “group”. The existence of “newsgroups”, Google Groups and Yahoo Groups would argue in favour of my usage of the term. For that matter, so would the existence of physical organisations that call themselves “forum”. Call it what you wish, but there’s no disputing that it was founded by Don Black, and that its members are mostly of the militant, white supremacist variety.

Whew. Now wasn’t that fun? Thanks again for the mostly interesting and thought-provoking responses.

(Report abuse)

Cool Down,

Point Taken, I’ll Accept 12:1…
I started my rant early this AM…
After reading in the paper about Makoe’s New Apartheid…

Bonginkosi,

Back down on the Nguni argument. There is substantial scientific and historic evidence that the Nguni Decendents are settlers from the North that fled from their own folk who were, in calaboration with the Arabs, selling their brethern to the Slave traders.
There is no point in slating people who arrived here by boat as settlers when all decendents of the Nguni People are settlers just the same.
We just carry on and on with the same bullshit.
We are either South Africans or not. The ANC will pay dearly in the long term for its current racial descriptions contained in its legislation. Although it is meant well, it is causing segregation, not cohesion.

(Report abuse)

amused reader

If the issues that you complain about Africans have something to do with their race or culture, how come we have poor whites today despite the fact that Apartheid strictly benefited and previleged whites to the total exclusion of everyone else in the first place, then Indians in the second place and thirdly colourdes.

If white people are generally as driven as a race/culture as you would want to put it, one would have expected EVERY, REPEAT EVERY white person today to be way above the black man, but that is not the case. You only moved to Africa only 3 years ago and now you have become an expert on African culture to make such obviously racist sweeping statements?

If black culture is a hindrance how do you explain the many millionaires and university graduates from abroad and locally in the townships, who despite all the difficulties the whiteman and his government threw at them they still rose to the challenges, the Maponyas of this world, the Irvin Khozas, the Thabo Mbekis, Tokyo Sikwale, Mandela, Robert Mugabe, Joshua Mqabuko Nkomo, Jomo Kenyatta, Dr Frank Khumalo (PhD Solid State Physics)with a Wits Medical Degree, politician and NASA robotics scientists such as Prof. Arthur Mtambara from Zimbabwe and many black African professionals in Finance and Economics at the World Bank, IMF and the world over. Why didn’t this culture you talk about so condencedingly not apply to them. Is that what you call doing enough just to get by?

Your own British government is recruiting those same black professionals from the dark continent to fill up vacancies that you whites are unable to cope with; why is the African culture not a hindrance in this respect?

The issue of respecting seniority as Bonginkosi said is not unique to Africans. I do business with the Chinese a lot and I have lived in India. There are a lot of similarities in culture between Africans and Asians. I get invited to many Chinese banquets and I find the Chinese do not only respect seniority they almost grovel in the presence of their seniors. The same is the case with Indians. Indians have extended families, so do we. The Indian Moslems or Moslems in general are polygamous so are we, so why this fuss about Africans? Have all these cultural traits prevented the Chinese or Indians from advancing?

Voting in what could be regarded as corrupt leadership cannot be explained simply in cultural terms as many of the people here would have us believe. There are many dynamics at play here that many of you white people despite regarding yourselves as Africans will not understand. For instance, it is highly debatable that Jacob Zuma could have won the ANC leadership in Polokwane had Thabo Mbeki stood aside and allowed someone else, say maybe, Cyril Ramaphosa to stand instead. So please avoid being to simplistic about these things.

Again instead of being blinded by race take note of the fact that Hillary Clinton, a white lady is herself one of the front runners in American Democratic party primaries despite the Real Estate scandals in Arkansas, and her husband’s philandering as a State Governor not to mention his sexual exploits in the White House with a yourng intern by the name Monica Lewensky. Are you also aware of the fact that depite this scandal Bill Clinton could have easily won a third term as a US president, were it not for the two term constitutional restriction. Were is the morality in the this holier than thou white race?. Ronald Reagan’s reign saw the highest economic growth rates in years under the banner of Reagonomics but he was just a movie star, but Zuma is being maligned left right and centre for not having gone to school but wanting to be president. What exactly drives this racism?

As for the past and present French presidents, the less said about them the better, when it comes to corruption and womanising. Need I remind you, they are also white following the so-called progressive white culture. If having concubines, girlfriends, threesomes and oral sex in the name of a so-called loving monogonmous marriages is Western cultural progress, then I say God forbid, let the African stay with his culture of polygamy at least there is honesty in that.

(Report abuse)

“If you and others.perhaps myself as well, are referred to as ‘White Supremacists’ and are wished
away, what shall we call Mr Mugabe, a supreme Black
moderate?”

Good one, cool down, I see you still have the outstanding sense of humour.

I guess;
Thabo Mbeki would call him – “dear brother in law and role model”,
Jacob Zuma would call him – “dear brother in thieving arms”,
The ANC would call him – “welcome dear ANC NEC member, now 40% of us are criminals”,
Ivo Vegter would call him – “welcome dear Uncle Bob, thou art so wonderful”, and
SA whites, the sane ones, would call him - THE FUTURE.

(Report abuse)

@ Draganov

I do not believe that Nguni’s are settlers. I suppose it is a matter of definition. Does being here from 1652 make yoy a settler or does being here from 1500 years ago make you a settler?

I stick by my story. This is well researched. Sorry guys. I do not believe you are telling the truth. Each to his own beliefs. Sorry, it’s just not true. If it was I would be willing to entertain it.

(Report abuse)

Khoza, a well presented case. You are clearly well travelled and well schooled in business and alos in life in general. Nice one. A commendable achievment.
So we are of like mind. Let me then pose the dilemma going forward. Our region of Southern Africa is running at a fraction of its capacity. Lets say less than 20%. If we were to get it up to 50% we would probable be able to get our collective GDP into the Trillions US.
Based on the current lack of straegic imperitive to get it going, what is it going to take to:
a) Get in going
b) Ensure sustainable development
c) Ensure effective Corporate Governance

Should this easily obtainable objective be met, we would have virtually no unemployment and certainly no povery. having said all this, you and I cannot be the only people that have an understanding of what needs to be done and the belief that it can be done.
I often get frustrated by the narrowmindedness of many people on the blogg.
What is it going to take to get us from the current situation of blame and squabling over the crumbs left over by apartheid and into the next gear for the effective developement of this highly sustainable region of ours?

(Report abuse)

@ Khosa

Rather than me respond with another lengthy blog, repeating more of the same, given than you dismiss my cultural argument, and i assume we can agree that whites aren’t a master race, then perhaps you can answer one simple question.

Why then is Africa the poorest, least developed, least civilized continent on our planet, with the lowest life expectancy, lowest levels of literacy, and bottom of just about any comparison you can make?

According to you it’s not the people, it’s not the culture, its certainly not a lack of access to natural resources, so what is it?

(please don’t insult my intelligence and mention apartheid, corruption or slavery)

(Report abuse)

I am sorry Ivo but I could not resist…

“Forum of Black Journalists to exclude white journalists from their meeting in Sandton on Friday.”

In Your Face…
is Fishbone’s first full length album released in 1986

(Report abuse)

Khosa

Whilst i hope you are preparing your explanation for all Africa under-achievements, i can’t resist pointing out the odd floor in your response.

1.If ‘European’ culture were to be more advanced than ‘African’ culture (and i think it is fair to say it is, just as Roman culture once was more advanced than western European culture) why would that have to mean every single European, out performed every single African. That is statistically an impossibility, and frankly a little naive.

2. I applaud the many African millionaires, who made it despite Apartheid. Of the long list of Black Africans you name, to the best of my knowledge ALL were either taught by white Europeans, or at very least in educational facilities established and ran by European academics. Some of them were actually educated in the UK. They probably don’t really help your argument. Rather point out those that have come to prominence through education under the ANC. (nor does holding Mugabe up as an enlightened academic!)

3.The British Government is indeed recruiting many skilled workers from overseas. (on a point of order many more white South Africans than black, despite the far smaller pool to call from, of no consequence to me, but it does rather p*ss on your fireworks). The UK has ‘full employment’, a state of affairs that African countries can only dream off, hence the need for workers, not because the racist policies of the government(s) (new and old) have driven the skilled workers away on mass.

4. Agreed that other countries and cultures defer to their leaders. Doesn’t mean it isn’t a problem in Africa

5. I don’t think it is Zuma’s lack of formal schooling that is the problem, it is because he is almost certainly a crook, and given the history Africa has in electing poor leaders why would we want to follow suit? (yes i know, Hitler….., but what happened to them, how long did they stay in power, and how was Germany, France, China, India, the USA etc etc doing the last time you compared them with Africa?)

I arrive at the argument of culture because i believe in racial equality, and do not accept that whites are superior. The achievement of whites, however, are vastly more superior to those of Black Africans (or am i wrong?)so if the it isn’t the people, is not the culture a logical place to look?

In your eyes this makes me a racist, but in my eyes you are a ‘denialist’, i am simply trying to reconcile the facts with my refusal to believe in white racial superiority.

(Report abuse)

@Bonginkosi

I am beneath you?

You must be a Black Supremacist

(Report abuse)

Ivo…Myself and a couple of friends have been debating a number of articles on Thought Leader for some days now. It was interesting to come across this one as well as the ‘Vindication’ one you wrote. What got our debates started was Stephen Friedman’s article on Eskom and Zuma and how he believes it brings out the racism of our fellow countrymen. I have been amused and irritated by some of the very sharp and witty remarks made by Mr. Friedman as well as yourself in the articles as well as the replies given to them. But sadly, and mostly sickened and disgusted by the second rate logic and communication applied across the board.

What triggered me to respond now, was your vehement article written above in which the sheer quantity of bile and slime you cough up and manage to extract out of your readers fill me with sheer disgust. I can’t help but see an image of yourself reflected within these people you have specifically singled our (out of spite and anger I imagine) as being demons. I understand from what you wrote as afterwards that you now decide to think of it as almost an ‘experiment’ to draw out the racist throughout the sectors of the reading public, but ultimately it merely reveals how much you yourself are trying to run away from what so obviously came from your own private inner thoughts and logic. You have revealed in your ‘vindication’ article that you can reason and imagine a world on a similar level to most racists, and I think you were stricken with fear and revolt. So what do you do? You play thought-police and imagine that by dehumanizing them, you are distanced enough to escape your pressing conscience and guilt.

Everyone seem to be quoting facts to strengthen their arguments so I’ll attempt some as well:

1 - All people discriminate daily: From moment to moment we distinguish and group ourselves according to what meets our needs and what threatens them, this is normal (otherwise Homo Sapien would have never made it to where we are), these can be rationally or irrationally motivated and justified, but they certainly serve a practical function. It’s time to get humble about this fact, nobody was born holy. Not in thought or deed. No matter how hard you try to demonize that which you fear, it will not disappear. I wonder how strong your words would have been if you did not have the luxury of insulting from a distance and had to do it to people’s faces. I’m sure you are a great guy, but your act is cowardly and impish. You might wonder what the point is I’m trying to make, well it’s quite simple: If the citizens of this country can’t deal with the fact that the same people who we need, love and cherish in our private lives are inherently failed (ie. racist, sexist, prone to bad ideas and decisions) we are truly screwed. We need to care for everyone in this country and your articles only serve to divide. The so-called Racists, Liberalists, Sexist etc. tags we all apply are only figments of our imaginations we invent and wield in self defense.

2 - The elected goverment might be democratically elected, but they campaigned by race and won it by race. Cleaving hairs about who (the NATS or the ANC) is worse is essentially overlooking the bigger picture: They are equally bad and arrogant in their ways, the only thing they differ with is their views on how to sap the people to death with bullshit ideology. We rely all too in SA on our identification or non-identification with whomever is in power to create a sense of South African identity and unity. And it’s clear that this has come to be. From our general opinions and style of debate we have become as schizophrenic the two extremes in government that make up our political history. Thoreau makes a strong case for fearing the power of vote and entrusting your self-determination from a governments’ policies or lack thereof, but it’s too detailed to get into here… nevertheless worth pondering about.

3 - Everyone in this country has suffered, even if they don’t realize it. We are all equally unequal. The rich, the poor, the different races, different genders, are all miserable about what has happened and what is still happening. If we keep playing victims that is all we will ever be, and there was no voice I heard (I apologize if I did miss this) in this and other debates, that faced up to the fact that guilt does not make up for sympathy. And that we all deserve sympathy and respect from each other (even if it’s only for paying taxes).

We have come a far way together in this little country, and we have done a lot of good as a whole and as individuals. We have also made some pretty stupid statements and decisions. Like an orphan who’s had a bad childhood and was thrown from bad parent to bad parent, we need to realise that we are not the product of our past, but the choices we make now. And like a child who lashes out in anger at those who try to come closer, the child only manages to distance himself even further from a sense of peace and the necessary help to maintain it. We need to understand this and that most the threats we feel seem very real but aren’t really.

So, in conclusion, I must admit finally that these kind of articles you (and many others) write, that want to pass off as contemplation of some high order, turns out to be childlike groveling and name-calling, just with bigger words, some good grammar and lots useless statistics.

(Report abuse)

@ Bonginkosi

Firstly, yes i live in the cape, near Paarl, and if you fancy a drink and an evening of politics (or sport - rugby or soccer) it would be a pleasure to oblige.

I cant agree that it ‘matters not how we got here’ because if we don’t understand what has caused our problems, we are unlikely to take the necessary steps to fix them. Apart from anything else how will you know if you are dealing with the symptoms or the cause?

I accept that the important part is fixing them, and that you and i are but grains in the sands of time.

In 2006 the litercy rate in the Uk was 99%, so how do you suggest it has fallen?

In 1995 the literacy rate was 90% in Zimbabwe, it was the highest in Africa (due the colonial education system, do you not agree?). Unicef no longer can establish current rates because of the education crisis, and the only figures i can find are estimated at between 80 - 85% by 2005, so it is going backwards and quickly, since the end of colonial rule.

If you want to argue facts, please get them right.

The cow comment, which, i have to say made me chuckle (bad form to laugh at your own joke - i know), i think helps to demonstrate the denialism that is inherent within the African Psyche. In all fairness you did enter it as an ‘exhibit’ to disprove my assertion that Africans have a tendency to do ‘just enough to get by’(by which i stand). The collecting of cows, honorable as it is, hardly establishes Africans as a race of ‘go-getters’!!

(Report abuse)

Boginkosi
You make serious allocations and put certain people
beneath you.Well it is your right of free speech
that allows you to say so.

You also say that you’re an Engineer and we all
accept that. What I don’t accept that you make
statements like ‘ well researched’ ‘here 1500 years’etc but stubbornly refuse to disclose your source of information so that it’s credibility can be verified.

Well I am not an Engineer but I believe that in
any science and research others should be able to
check and verify.

Now I am asking you respectfully to disclose your
source of information and if it is found to be
irrefutable,I sir will be the first one to aplogise
on this blog,which will render your future posts
that more credible and whatever I have to say less.

Looking forward to hear from you soon.

(Report abuse)

@Ivo at what stage in a free market would you say we would see competition? How many dairy companies, cell phone companies, care manufactures, banks and bakers are required to ensure that our current “illusion” of a free market would become a reality?

(Report abuse)

howzit my esteemed comrade bonginkosi…or should I address you by your other moniker…”Die Swart Gevaar”..?

Verrrry long and rather well-written letter, my good Sir.! As you said elsewhere (on that unmentionably racist site you like to troll) you really must have a lot of spare time at your big important BEE desk. I really dont know when you get the time to “benefit the economy with your masterful knowledge and experience” as you so humbly put it.

everywhere I worked, this economy is benefiting from my knowledge and experience. I have a very good idea what makes things work and I am a master at doing just that; making things work

Now you ask a lot of questions and as “amused reader” is probably a whitey and thus doesnt have an overpaid under-worked BEE “job”, I am sure he doesnt have time to answer them all. So I´m coming to his help on this one….The other reason is because its such an EASY QUESTION that anyone with thimbleful of brain cells should know the answer…which obviously excludes the esteemed comrade.

Did this government ever complain about the virtually bankrupt state coffers they inherited in 1994 or they just got on with it?

Yes they have, on many occasions…but much more frequently now than in the first few years of “liberation”. The reason they might not have brought it up in the first years was because everyone then remembered the 20 year long economic siege that South Africa had to endure. But good memories and brain cells are in short supply amongst ANC voters, so they can easily fool people with misleading half-truths such as this one.

You said “I am older than you probably think”. So are you old enough to remember sanctions Bonginkosi? Apparently not. Sanctions occur when the “sanctimonious” declare that a certain country needs to be punished because it has an “evil” government. They then gang up to impose an economic blockade on that country in an effort to destroy its economy and make its people poorer, but thus exorcising the said “evil” (namely, efficient administration by people of the wrong colour).

BTW - Extrapolation of pre-sanctions growth rates indicate that the SA economy would have been at least 50%, possibly 100%, greater in 1994 if there had been no sanctions. Yes, that means blacks would have been 50% better-off without sanctions, and probably much more because black wages had been growing faster than white.

A small country in Africa called Rhodesia was declared such an “evil” country because, having seen dozens of black-ruled countries fall apart after “liberation”, its government believed that the country and its people (black and white) would be far better off under admin of the “wrong colour”, at least for the forseeable future. Obviously this was an “evil” government which had to be punished. 15 years of sanctions – and a virtually 100% economic blockade – and a war of terror against civilians - eventually “persuaded” the wrong colour govt to hand over the country lock stock and barrel – whilst it was still in relatively good shape - to a “reformed” marxist black gentleman who then proceeded to complete the destruction of the economy. (Hang on, isnt something wrong here..?)

This sanctions strategy was deemed so successful that, being also embarassingly well run by people of the wrong colour, it was decided that South Africa should also be declared “evil”. 20 years of sanctions, during which the economy continued to grow but not fast enough for rich and greedy businessmen and “leaders” of both colours, “persuaded” the wrong colours to hand over the country lock stock and barrel – whilst it was still in relatively good shape – to a group of “reformed” marxist black gentleman who then proceeded…..c´mon, be fair - give them a bit more time..!

(Report abuse)

@ Draganov

You’re a hard man to pigeon hole. I admire your ‘based on reality’ opinion making, which i notice you are true to, whether it suits your ideals or not.

@ Boginkosi

Got a little more time this morning, so i just wanted to return to the Zimbabwe question, as it really suprised me that (1) you didn’t think i wouldn’t know that Zimbabwe had the highest literacy rate in Africa & (2) that you would bring it up, given that i have to say, the evidence from where i stand is more likely to support my viewpoint (of flawed African culture)that yours. This begs the question as to whether you actually understand the education system in Zimbabwe yourself?

- The British believed that to create harmony in their colonies that the ‘natives’ needed educating so that their civilization could catch up.

- After the UDI made by Ian Smith, Smith also pursued a policy of educating the ‘Natives’. What most people either don’t understand, or choose not to, is that Smith did not believe in White Supremacy, nor did he want Rhodesia to be white ran for ever. His phrase was ‘evolution not revolution’ and he asserted that once the ‘natives’ had been educated to a point that they could compete on ‘even footing’ with the colonists the country would prosper in a non-racial environment. He did not believe that the time was right to hand over power to the ‘natives’, because he considered that not enough progress had been made in integrating the different cultures and civilisations. History, has , alas, proved him right has it not?

- Education was by freely given to all, and was (i think i am correct in saying) a legal requirement.

- On the ground, education was usually given by farm schools, where 4 or 5 farmers would build a school to educate the farm workers children (Given that Agriculture was the mainstay of the economy, and there was never legal segregation based on race, although i accept economic factors would have created segregation in any case).

- After the land invasions, the new Black land (owners) have closed virtually all the schools, and the farm children are no longer being educated. The 80% literacy rate will fall massively once the older generation who are literate because they were educated under Smith die off, and the younger illiterate generation not educated under Mugabe come through. (this won’t take long because life expectancy has fallen from 55 under Smith to 37 under Mugabe)

SO, THE POINT IS…..

The impressive rates of literacy in Zimbabwe to which you so proudly refer are actually the legacy of the British, Ian Smith and White commercial farmers. In 20 years when the rate has fallen to lets guess at 50%, that will be the legacy of African ‘Culture’.

Please please tell me if i am wrong.

If you want to make the same mistake twice you could also try ‘Did i know that Zimbabwe has the highest success rate against HIV/AIDs in Africa?’

That’s is what the figures say after all. wanna try me?

(Report abuse)

Ok, sorry, i am starting to sound a little like a ‘White Supremacist’ myself.

The point i am really trying to make, is that there IS something very wrong with African - Culture(?) / Civilization (?) / Governance (?).

Once we can identify what is is (whatever it may be), we the united peoples of Africa, can learn from past mistakes and create a better future for all. I honestly want a non-racial society where we don’t have poor, destitute and downtrodden people of any race, and where we live, become educated, work and play together irrespective of colour.

Boginkosi, how about we start a political party together, i reckon we could be pretty inclusive (!), and i think we ant exactly the same for the people of this country? (The devil may be in the detail of achieving it)

(Report abuse)

@ Ivo Vegter,
You say: “But by all means, defend away”

Eagle says:
Sorry friend, that cop-out is not going to work. You made the allegations of racism and white supremacy, you provide the proof.

Unless, of course, you can’t. In which case a humble apology will be in order.

(Report abuse)

Its seems to be amazing what people refer to as white supremacy and racism.

The highest law of nature is loyalty to one’s own kind. A race is a group of biologically and genetically related individuals, like an extended family, and just as it’s natural to love your family more than other people’s families, it is also natural to love your race more than other races. If someone or something threatens to harm your family or your race, it is perfectly right to react. When whites do it, it is racism.

Every day, around the world, Whites are becoming a smaller percentage of the population, and the demographic projections are frightening. Less than eight percent of the world’s population are White, compared to one-third of the world’s population being White a century ago. Only two percent of the world’s population consists of White females of childbearing age or less.

The movements Ivo calls white supremacist scum promote the survival of the White race. If it is “hateful” and “racist” to try and keep from being driven to extinction, then behaving in any other manner would be suicidally stupid. As far as the term “racist” goes, despite the fact that the controlled media have attempted to turn it into a pejorative, it’s still just a descriptive adjective which means “one who is an advocate of or for one’s own people”, like Jesse Jackson is for his people, or Ariel Sharon was for his people. When people accuse me of being a “racist”, all I can do is smile and say “Historically speaking, what’s the alternative?”

(Report abuse)

Boginkosi
Plese sir I am waiting for your reply but in the
meantime I explored several solutions.
I think you watch too much TV and you no longer
hear ‘Them stones,them Stones,them firestones,
but hear them bones,them bones, those ancient
bones,we all need them bones’

(Report abuse)

Through all this no one dares take on the Black ‘racists’ and White liberals and their falsehoods that they cannot substantiate, like Bonginkosi’s claims that Blacks are native to South Africa.

This view is as ridiculous as the afrocentric farce of Blacks having built the pyramids, Christopher Columbus and Mozart were Black etc. Blacks can run a country, yet the entire continent is a joke. We submit to this farce for the sake of uniting our society, or fear of the racist label. In the interest of doing penance for ‘white guilt’, we will accept a shaky system of liberal ideas proposed by many TLs here. Their desperate need to be ‘non-racial’ pushes them to pretend that this self flagellation and white whipping have something to do with facing the facts about injustice in our country.

The refusal to accept the tragic fundamentals and facts has led to our bending before a politics of blame in which all evil can be traced to the devil’s address, which is, in some way, the address of the white privileged and the successful. They want to absolve the so-called oppressed Blacks from responsibility for their actions. Blacks can succeed, failure is not because they are Black. Very well, show as a successful example. Convince us rather than throw slander at ‘racists’.

This is nothing but a simple minded Hustle. They imply white success is no more than the work of imperialists and racists who seek an invincible order of geopolitical domination, inextricably connected to profit and exploitation of white over black. Where the Marxist want a paradise of workers, the white haters see a paradise lost and the possibility of a paradise regained—if only black people will rediscover the essentials of their African identity. uBuntu.

They use only their own words as sources of argument and never provide facts. Everything opposed is defined as either ‘willfully flawed’ or ‘racist’ or ‘white supremacist’. I oppose them. Hence I must be ‘racist’.

Some even see education and research as Apartheid propaganda and “Eurocentric indoctrination.” They maintain that Western history as written is an unrelenting cultural war that aims to justify and maintain the subjugation of African peoples. Hence the fact of Negroes being just other colonialists in SA is a threat. Some here go so far as to promote a hate of all that is European or European-derived, yet wont give up their cars, computers or cell phones.

Face it. There is no significant African architecture capable of rivaling the grand wonders of the world, European or notAfrica has no body of thought comparable to that upon which Western civilization has developed its morality, governmental structures, technology, economic systems, and its literary, dramatic, plastic, and musical arts. Is this fact or ‘white supremacism’?

Why is it that peoples of European descent have gathered and ordered knowledge and put together the largest and richest repository of human culture? Because of the tradition of scientific inquiry have led to the most impressive investigations into human life and the natural world, rather than just blaming an oppressor.

It is not in the interest of these Hustlers to look with equal critical vision at White and Black. It would make things less reducible to soap opera politics of blame whitey, racists and Apartheid. It wouldn’t be so easy to manipulate the emotions of liberal whites and blacks trying to explain failure. Because end of the day these people deal in ideals and emotion, not reality.

(Report abuse)

@ Ivo
Well done, Consulting Engineer! So far you, Eagle, Cool Down and a few others are the only ones that argue with logic and unattached emotions. In regard to Ivo and other journo`s who live in this self-induced Dream Theatre, wake up from your REM sleep. Reality is staring you right in the face with a loaded AK 47, Ivo. Or in my case a loaded Chinese-imported Norinco 213! Because of your indulgent, ever-lasting Utopia, concealing the true state of affairs to the general public, and not exposing the truth regarding the evil culprits responsible for this living hell, you are perpetuating the problem. We as Joe Public have to endure on a day to day basis the reversed-racism and very real apathy from every level of government. I find myself in dire straights, unable to provide for my family and other dependants, as I too have been the victim of the unleashed evil, that now so commonly prowls our streets. I was shot in the face and as a result, I have lost over 80% of my vision. I am unable to find alternative employment due to affirmative action. You have a responsibility to the general public to expose the hidden agenda of the current, corrupt regime and to highlight the atrocities committed by the current, self-serving government. This country is in anarchy with no visible relieve in sight. It’s a feeding frenzy with every corrupt government official in on the big pay-off! Wake up and smell the cordite, the blood and the feces in the air, Ivo!

(Report abuse)

Brilliant piece, Consulting Engineer. As normal they will hurl abuse but will not be able to prove any of it wrong.

It is all a big hustle. None of the accusations to which we are subjected daily and upon which most of the racist legislation which discriminates against the white minority is based, has ever been tested in an impartial court, despite their favourite mantra “a person is presumed innocent until found guilty in a court of law”.

We must be the only country in the world where the miniscule minority is blamed and punished for the failure of the huge majority to look after themselves and advance from their primitive state for the past 350 years, and for the next 100 years, or as long as there is a white skin left.

You are right about populations as well. South African white population, over the past 50 years increased by 3 million whilst the black population increased by 45 million, predictably resulting a situation where there is a massive shortage of resources and, of course, endemic poverty. We manage the size of our families around our resources, I have one child, whilst most of the unemployed have 4,5 or 6 children who are all starving, yet we get blamed for the state of poverty and, when we lay the facts on the table to proof scientifically, the real reasons for the problems in this country, the opportunists and the pc liberals label us as racists and supremacists. But prove us wrong, they cannot do.

The situation is so bad that many of the liberals such as “anti-apartheid” activist John Minto, Helen Zille of Black Sash fame, FW de Klerk infamous double agent, and others are starting to decant their stance, many of them such as Brink and Gordimer have fled their liberal handiwork, black intellectuals such as Justice Malala and Mbeki’s own brother are starting to tell it like it is and influential media such as the BBC are starting to see the cracks.

(Report abuse)

To the “gang of 4″ white racists….
Excellent posts guys, esp CE, but havent you noticed that for the past 2 days or more you have been talking amongst yourselves..? You have won the argument by a mile but as they will never dare admit, and as they control this blog, their “response” will be to let this thread die.

Since I exposed comrade masterful engineer “Bonginkosi” as the “Die Swart Gevaar” who trolls the SAS blog, he has gone to ground. As for white “liberals” like IVo…their “modus operandi” and unwillingness to face facts is best epitomised as “someone who starts an argument and then leaves the room”. This appears to be the case.

(Report abuse)

@ Ivo

i notice a very definite theme developing here, which maybe is in stark contrast with what you hoped to achieve. It strikes me that it is the ’supremacists’ who are the ones willing to stand their ground and argue their point, and the ‘liberals’ who want to make their points, and then run when challenges to provide the evidence for their viewpoint.

I have stated quite unequivocally that i do not share these supremacists views, but one thing is certain, in terms of ‘performance’ Africa is bottom of the pile, and there is a reason for that. I would suggest that only by discovering this reason can we hope to fix it, for the good of all Africans, and most particularly for the poor.

How about a separate blog . What caused Africa’s Problems? - It isn’t going to be pretty, but why should we hide from it.

I have read en editorial article on the M&G this morning:

http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx?area=/insight/insight__comment_and_analysis&articleid=333075

This is one frightening piece of work, not because of the views (many others share them) but when you read who the author is. Once more a senior figure in the establishment.

Of particular interest to me was the suggestion that whites don’t care when black babies die in Frere hospital, that no whites called for the head of the health minister (you what?), and that only when blacks get better treatment at the state hospitals will all be well.

Well, Manto should go, hell yes. It is appalling that any babies are dying needlessly, black white or green, but it comes back to the same argument, what caused the problem. i see now that there are moves a foot to start moving us all across to the private sector for health. Why? Because the government has screwed up the public hospitals, and now they want to use the private ones (which they will in turn screw up).

When i alledge that there is an issue in African culture, i am lambasted by anyone who is either black, or a white liberal. But do these people want to stay and fight their corner with facts and hard evidence?

Lists of failed, or flawed white leaders are quoted as evidence that failure isn’t just a black thing (i never said that it was), but this is used as a smoke screen. German, French, Italian, British.. leaders may have been flawed, but where are those countries now (end even then). This is just a magicians trick (misdirection) to distract your attention from the inevitable fact that the rabbit was there all along!.

@ anyone with courage to challenge….

Africa is a failing continent - FACT

Why is it failing, why is it so far behind every other continent?

(You have all been very quick to shoot down my argument that it is an outdated African Culture, but not one African has yet suggested a single possible reason)

Oh, don’t forget Africa was miles behind the rest of the world before Apartheid and colonialism, so you cant use your favorite scapegoats

(Report abuse)

@Invinoveritas: You’re the first person ever to call me a left-wing ideologue. Or a liberal, for that matter. Somehow, I don’t think you means “liberal” in the classical sense, which is the sense in which I’d gladly accept the label.

That I dislike racism — or, more accurately, the degeneration of any economic or political argument into one about race — doesn’t mean I wish to suppress it. Quite the contrary. I agree that racism, like nationalism, tribalism, or defending your family interests over those of mere neighbours, is perfectly natural, happens everywhere, and is perfectly normal and harmless, unless it leads to legal discrimination or actual violence. Nor did I claim any one group is more or less racist than another. But either way, nothing forces me to listen to it. And no, that doesn’t mean I want to burn anyone at the stake.

@Vapour: Thinking that there must be a certain number of competitors in order for a market to be “free” is a fallacy. A market either is free, or it isn’t. Licencing X number of, say, cellular operators, and banning more than X, doesn’t make it a free market. By contrast, while competition usually does exist in a free market, this isn’t a necessary condition for the market to be free. What is necessary is that new competition can arise, without needing a permission slip from government. If a supplier — even a sole supplier — ill serves its customers, or makes excessive profits, it will attract competition. If it does not, then there’s nobody in the market who thinks they can do a better job. By contrast, if a government bars competition, whether through onerous licence obligations, limited licence numbers, subsidies to preferred competitors, or outright monopoly protection, the market is not free, and the benefits of a free market cannot be obtained.

@frxnlab: See what I said to Invinoveritas. I know people discriminate daily. But does that mean I must listen to a racist explanation about why Africa is poorer than Europe, when I believe the reason is socialism, corruption and authoritarianism — vices of which governments of all races have at one time or another made themselves guilty? Does disagreeing with such racist analysis, and finding it offensive, equate to playing “thought police”? I didn’t realise I was that powerful. Thanks for the psychoanalysis, though. I feel much better now that I know my dislike for white supremacists is rooted in my childish fear of big black men.

@Eagle: You’re terribly defensive, considering that I named only Consulting Engineer, because of his reference to Stormfront. What exactly do you need from me? Proof that Stormfront is racist? Will its URL do?

@Consulting Engineer: Just for you, I’m working on a piece that makes a similar argument about black racists. Making every argument about race is just as much a deflection on their part. It subverts the debate, and misses the point. The reason this piece appeared first is because there have been far fewer racially defensive comments from black people on my articles. You’ll have to forgive me if it doesn’t appear this week — unfortunately I have real work to do that will keep me away from my computer for much of the week.

(Report abuse)

@Great white, eagle, amused reader, invinoveritas and others.

Thanks for the support ouens. Much appreciated.

At the risk of sounding cliche, for those of you that recall, remember the words:

Pamwe chete, Ons is wenners, Eendrag Maakt Mag. We were never absolved of that and must stand together and defend our people no matter what their beliefs.

(Report abuse)

@cool down

I am pulling a leg about saying consulting engineer is beneath me. More seriously, I find consulting engineer’s politics and racial purity theories rubbish, sad and laughable. He is a sad case of a stupid but clever person.

If you take exception, sir, it is quite correct….it maybe becasue the black humour was quite hard to translate.

@amused reader

I called you right about being from the Western Cape. What I want to say about that is, you cannot even begin to say you know anything about South African politics if you live in this province. Yes, you will need a lot of education, sir.

We are on the same side, you just don’t know it yet!! LOL. We will start that political party, my friend, as soon as I school you out of some of your colonial ways!! LOL.

(Report abuse)

Mr Vegter

Will you please include,if you have not as yet
finished your article,that all around the world
there are groups that wish to maintain their identity,culture,language etc, without denying
others the same and are therefore per se not racists?

(Report abuse)

@Ivo

Some info for your upcoming article on racism.

http://www.big-boards.com/highlight/339/pageviews/

SF is the 40th most viewed site in the world. Even ahead of sex sites. The membership alone makes it one of the largest online groups in the world, as i mentioned earlier. The guests far outnumber member. People that are interested in the message. And it is only one of many such sites. It should make you think about where the views of a very large segment of the world lie.

A very large segment of the world is not swallowing the ‘its not about race’ story being peddled by PC liberals and yourself. They are looking elsewhere for news and information.

A large part of the world is concerned about the future of the white race and its survival and is no longer looking to liberals for answers. SA and Zimbabwe are marked examples of failure. The excuses are wearing thin.

A large part of the world is joining to try and do something about it and make their voice heard.

A large segment of the world choose to mix with their own brothers and sisters around the world and say NO to mixing.

A large portion of the world goes there for newslinks to get news not filtered by the liberal press.

If you get a chance, check out some polls on the membership education and professions. They are by and large far better educated than the society average, represent professional doctors, engineers, lawyers, professors, teachers etc. If you cannot see it, let me know and I will access the info for you.

If you want to see black racism check out blackplanet.

(Report abuse)

Nice to have you back Bonginkosi.

Alas i rather like my colonial ways, and love living in the Cape. I prefer for my wife to provide excitement in the bedroom, rather than an intruder with a gun, so no imminent move to jo’burg or Durban just yet!

(Report abuse)

to all white supremacists,

Your attitudes are not helpful in reducing tension/misunderstanding between different races, religions, ethnic groups etc. In fact, they contribute to raising tensions and misunderstandings.

The world, as we know and enjoy today has received contributions from people around the world, of all races and colours and religious beliefs.
The Greeks almost certainly learnt some of the basics of Geometry from the Egyptians, who were masters at engineering thousands of years before Greek civilization first flourished 2500 years ago. The Romans had many clever people in lots of fields, and amazing civil engineers, but they had a clumsy numbering system that limited their ability to manipulate very large numbers., or to advance far in mathematics. The Hindus invented the zero, and a decimal number system (as did the Mayans, in Central America) which got to Europe via the Arabs. (Some evidence points to the Chinese also having independently invented the zero and a decimal system). The Arabs invented Algebra, without which modern maths would be impossible. The Indians developed binomial and trinomial expansions, without which we would not have calculus as we know it.
Proficiency at some aspects of surgery goes back 8000-9000 years ago in what is today Pakistan, when dentists were able to drill teeth. Back teeth were drilled, and some of these had the drilling direction from the back of the mouth to the front.
The “father of Indian surgery” pioneered cataract surgery 2700 years ago. He also progressed far enough with plastic surgery to do meaningful reconstructions of noses and ears (cutting off noses and ears was a popular punishment in ancient times). One of his techniques was lost, until it was rediscovered by Germans in the 1960s, namely to pull a flap of skin from the forehead down over the nose while the nose is healing from plastic surgery).
In the 19th century, British surgeons marvelled at the surgical techniques of the Indians, and they learnt at least some of the eye surgery at the time from Indians). India is once again breaking new ground in surgery. There are few, if any surgeons outside India who can do 9 heart bypasses on one patient during one operation (Heart Hospital in Chennai routinely does these).
Indians were highly skilled in metallurgy 5000 years ago, thousands of years before the Europeans - even today, metallurgists do not know how the ancient Indians did what they did with metals.

The Chinese developed ceramics to a fine degree 1900 years before the Europeans. It is well known that silk processing, gunpowder, fireworks displays, the compass, printing and wood based paper originated from China. Not so well known, is toilet paper and the toothbrush (probably invented over 2000 year ago), multi stage rockets, harnessing of natural gas for heating (13th Century) etc. etc.
Glassmaking was discovered in Iraq, from where it spread to Egypt. While the Venetians are unrivalled in mouth blown glass today, the Venetian glassmaking industry was boosted by the influx of many glass artisans who came from after Constantinople (Istanbul in modern Turkey) fell.

Europeans explored the word using small ships in the 16th - 18th centuries. Many of the European sailors suffered terrible diseases from lack of good food and fresh fruit and vegetables. The Chinese in the early 15th century, led by the navigator Zhang He (a Muslim ), sailed the world using massive ships 6 times longer than those of the Europeans of the 16th century. Chinese sailors during those voyages did not have a problem with poor diet, as the Chinese grew crops on their ships!
Chinese scientists synthesized protein and hormone steroids in the 17th century. In the 17th century, 40% of all the world’s printed books were in Chinese, and China accounted for 40% of the global economy, and with India, these two countries contributed two thirds of the global economy.

It is really hard to compare architectures of different civilizations over the different millennia. The Spaniards were awestruck by the beauty of the Aztec capital, Tenochtitlan, which was as beautiful as Venice but several time large than any European city. The Aztec civilization was very young then, only 200 yeas old at the time.
The Forbidden City in Beijing has the world’s largest and most impressive wooden buildings. A 100 000 artisans and 1 million labourers worked on that project, for 14 years to build the Forbidden city.
Sliding doors were first used in China during the Tang Dynasty (AD 618 – 907).
The largest (370 hectares) and most beautiful gardens in the world were in Beijing and was known as the Garden of Gardens in the West. Anglo-French forces razed it in 1860 (out of jealousy?)

Blueberry pie and tomato source (both much enjoyed by Europeans) came from the Red Indians.

The wonder drug cortisone was first synthesized by an American Negro, Percy Julian, the grandson of slaves. Before that, one had to slaughter 167 cattle to get one gram of cortisone, at a cost of $700 per gram. Percy found a way to synthesize it, at a cost of a mere 50c per gram.

Scientists and engineers from Black Africa have left their mark upon the modern world. I will mention just one who is both an engineer and scientist and has 5 degrees, Nigerian born Philip Emeagwali, who survived the Biafran war and was dependant on food handouts to survive, in a refugee camp. www.emeagwali.com (the world’s first personal website). He is rated as one of the 5 top scientists in the USA today.

I could give many more examples, but hopefully I have made my point.

(Report abuse)

It’s ridiculous how often the leftist media tries to stifle free thought by name calling. You should be ashamed of yourself! You call yourself a journalist, but you are just a shill for the elitists whose boots you lick. Cowards such as you use your hate speech to muzzle any person of conscience who disagrees with the party line. You would do well to learn about the Nazi party of which you so freely accuse others of being. As I recall, the Nazi party were National Socialists, in effect liberal tax and spenders. Hitlers Brown shirts were heavily infiltrated with homosexuals. So, it seems to me, you would be completely comfortable with these folks, until they started the final solution. It seems as though you would stifle the free exchange of ideas. What are you so afraid of? If all you preach is so worthy, it will withstand the scrutiny of all, reguardless of their persuasion. Why is it that whenever a liberal runs out of ideas, they resort to namecalling and character assasination? This only serves to prove the worthlessness of the opinion you hold forth in debate. Your guilt by association ploy is foolish at best. Who care what other websites your contributors frequent, as long as their ideas are sound? I’m sure if we dug into your habits, there may be something there that you may not wish exposed.

(Report abuse)

@cool down

See History of the Bantu at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantu
“Pioneering groups had reached modern KwaZulu-Natal in South Africa by A.D. 300 along the coast, and the modern Northern Province (formerly called the Transvaal) by A.D. 500.”

Not everything on Wikipedia is necessarily 100% correct and accurate, but you get inaccuracies in peer reviewed academic articles too.

Historical research never ends, though. Could be that some of the Bantu reached present day KZN centuries before AD 300 …….

(Report abuse)

@ oldfox

Fascinating contribution, thank you.

Can’t agree that the more right wing views are not helpful. One of the best things about this site is the refreshingly accommodating moderation. These views are widely held in society, why pretend they aren’t? To balance it there are plenty of Africans to vigorously defend their corner, and surely one without the other would offer a distorted reflection of our society. I think a lot of people, and i include myself, feel that, whilst they do not agree with everything the ‘far right’ have to say, feel that liberalism is eating up our society, and that by not speaking out against the often foundless and emotionally driven comments of ‘African denialists’ that we are silently agreeing to their own propaganda. This i am unwilling to do, as i believe the vast majority of Africa’s problems should be laid fairly and squarely at the door of Africans. Most Africans do not share this view and wish to absolve themselves of any fault in their own troubles. Alas white liberals are quite happy to tacitly agree, and that leaves only the the more right wing contributors to point out the glaringly obvious. I rarely agree with their conclusions, but i rarely disagree with their facts.

Even in you most informing passage about the contributions of the various societies throughout modern history, you have failed to mention a single contribution by an African (other than those who have been integrated into an alien western society). Given that my view is that African culture and society is outdated and the cause of most of Africa’s problems, it does not surprise me.

It is amazing how much Africans can achieve when you take them out of Africa, and how little they can achieve when you leave them there!

The natural order of the world is that advanced civilizations have overtaken less advanced ones, it is what has driven progress throughout the world, throughout history. The ending of colonialism is the worst thing that could have happened to Africa, and if it had lasted another 100 years, Africa would be a world leader not a charity case.

(Report abuse)

@oldfox

Who you trying to fool? Philip Emeagwali is a fraud. I am sure you are aware of it and trying to pull a Hustle. Try gain. Rather please don’t.

Even Nigerians admit it:

http://magazine.biafranigeriaworld.com/cezeilo/2003nov09.html
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-19285.0.html

I can send many more links but rather those you try to hustle see that even nigerians recognise this liar and fraudster

The site you link is just self promotion.

Here is the percy Julian fraud. At least he made the Chemistry Hall of Shame

”
As far as I know, Julian never came up with an original synthesis of hydrocortisone (or cortisone, for that matter). What Julian is famous for making is Reichstein’s Compound S, which Upjohn later found a way to oxidize to cortisone using a microorganism. In fact, once Upjohn discovered the process for selective oxidation at the 11-position, there were many routes to cortisone, not just through compound S. Julian’s route through steroids isolated from soybeans was not as effective as Syntex’s route through the Mexican Yam, since this species of yam produced a greater yield of the steroid precursors. Julian eventually quit his job as director of the Soya Products Division at Glidden so that he could work with the Mexican Yam.

While we’re busy correcting things, the 45 articles by Julian that the ACS claims to have in its “Legacy Archives” include two addition/correction notices. Thus, the correct value for the number of articles he published with the ACS is 43, two of which he later amended. Feel free to check my math.

So, let’s recap:

1. Julian did not make hydrocortisone in 1948. He reported the partial synthesis of Compound S in 1951 (submitted to JACS in 1950). I don’t know what 1948 has to do with anything.

2. Julian never came up with an original, complete route to hydrocortisone. Upjohn’s fermentive oxidation of the 11-position of steroids made it possible to take Julian’s route to Compound S all the way to cortisone. This process was developed in 1951/2. (Although he did not make the key discovery, Julian should be praised for predicting that this amazing transformation would eventually be discovered.)

3. Julian/Glidden applied for a patent on the “Preparation of Cortisone” on September 9, 1950, but it was one of those pie-in-the-sky deals. They never actually made the key transformation, and basically said so in the patent: “The present invention is not concerned with the introduction of the 11-keto group, nor with the formation of the acetyl group in the 17-position of the molecule, but is concerned with the other conversions and reactions mentioned.”

3b. In light of this important fact, it is amazing that Julian was inducted into the Inventor’s Hall of Fame for this particular patent. Why not choose one of his many other inventions?

http://blog.chembark.com/category/hall-of-shame/

(Report abuse)

@oldfox

Before you bother trying to come up with more frauds, here is a list of frauds that have been committed fro Black History Month. It is very extensive so please dont unsult our intelligence by listing any of these as great achievements.

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?p=4615007&highlight=Emeagwali#post4615007

At least you got me to burst out in laughter.

Here you will find the truth behind the patents and the inventions

http://www33.brinkster.com/iiiii/inventions/#top

Oldfox, you are a rank amateur at this type of fraud. Go play this game elsewhere.

(Report abuse)

@old fox

Are you trying to compare Wiki with academic journals? Both are inaccurate? You make me laugh again. Journals are peer reviewed and you must present facts to substantiate conclusions. In Wiki you can write anything and hope no one picks it up and writes a complaint. Anyone can write Blacks were in Antartica in 300 BC and not provide proof for Wiki.

Could you find no journal to substantiate your fables?

Let me guess, you are a student who surfs the net? You don’t have ther wits to know which hoaxes are credible and which are not. Try me on the most holy of all hoaxes. I actually published an engineering based article on it.

Fox is a good name for you: wily and sly but especially clever. But be wary of the Ratel.

(Report abuse)

Bonginkosi et all. The fact that you don’t know, that you don’t know, makes your last feeble attempt just that. One must speak out against racism in all its forms, or condone it. Tell us where you stand.

(Report abuse)

@amused reader

Sorry my friend, the oldfox out foxed you! You check out facts from the Rightwingers and find us correct, but didnt check his! Go research the claims he makes for african-americans yourself. You will see the stunt he is pulling.

And look at african-american contribution in context. What have they achieved in 300 years relative to other immigrant groups.Even holding up one or 2 examples does not negate the fact that the group has failed dismally to progress compared to others.

Holding up one or 2 exceptions as ‘proof’ is intellectual fraud, just like trying to argue the Nguni didnt arrive in 1500, but 1400. The fact that they are colonialists that eliminated the natives still stands. The date and time dont matter.

(Report abuse)

@ Consulting engineer

You are right, i didn’t check out his claims, but i must say, that even if there is the odd error in the detail, i accept and agree with the point he is trying to make, which is that many different cultures and races have contributed to the combined knowledge of the human race.

I also accept and agree with your argument that the Black African tribes have no more right to SA than do the whites, and that the atrocities committed by blacks on blacks are very conveniently forgotten, because they don’t fit with the history that Africans are trying to re-write for themselves.

Where we certainly do not agree is that black Africans are some sub-species of the human race. I believe they are as capable and worthy as any other race of people on the planet.

As i have stated many time before my view is that the issues are cultural as opposed to genetic, and one of the most notable things i have experienced having moved here from the much more racially tolerant and racially integrated UK, is the difference in performance and ambition between Africans living abroad, and Africans living in Africa. Many (most?) Africans who have left Africa for more advanced countries hold their former countrymen in utter contempt, and are far more vocal in their criticism of African culture that i would ever be (coconuts no doubt?). Very few have any desire to return.

I think you must be a little careful in some of your more extreme claims, because even you may struggle to back them up with facts. Don’t forget how silly one Adolf Hitler looked when Jesse Owens wiped the board at the Olympics.

(Report abuse)

@ amused reader

In terms of your emotional subjective comments above.

I do not know what your background is but my own is in Consulting; Industrial Engineering, IT and Business.

The first thing that I have learned as a junior is that one can only solve a problem, any problem, working with the facts. Your own intelligence will tell you that there are certain problems especially the Africa situation, which keeps on getting worse even 300 years after colonialism. Have you never wondered why?

One of the reasons are that we keep on wanting to do something about the symptoms but we ignore the causes of the problems simply because the real root causes have become holy cows so they never get highlighted analyzed and solved. Although much research has been done on these subjects it is generally hidden, derided and debunked.

Your comment about native intelligence is obviously designed to stir the pot but I will not even go there as this subject is another holy cow. You might be advised to do a bit of research by Googling the subject.

(Report abuse)

@amused reader

Sorry, I hate to belabour the point, but scientifically white and black are at least different subspecies. This raised an interesting concept in my mind.

Subspecies have differences due to changes that have evolved as a result of geographical distribution or isolation.

Subspecies differ morphologically or by different DNA sequences from members of other subspecies.

Different species are defined as being distinctly different and when placed together would not interbreed to any great extent. If two groups do not interbreed because of something intrinsic to their genetic make-up,(perhaps because they do not find the other sexually attractive, or they breed at different times of year then they are different species.

If the two groups would interbreed freely provided only that some external barrier was removed then they are subspecies.

A monotypic species has no races, or rather one race comprising the whole species. A polytypic species has two or more races or subspecies. These are separate groups that are clearly distinct from one another and do not generally interbreed (although there may be a relatively narrow hybridization zone), but which would interbreed freely if given the chance to do so. Note that groups which would not interbreed freely, even if brought together such that they had the opportunity to do so, are not races: they are separate species.

So scientifically, we are at the very least different subspecies.

I can post scientific links if you like.

So the question remains, would we interbreed given the opportunity to do so?

Your other point, do not worry, I will never claim we are as good in track.

(Report abuse)

To people like amused reader, consulting engineer etc

Well all this racism under the cover of debate has gone on for far too long. Could I just ask, so if the blacks are backward, not civilised, not sophisticated, so what? what are you gonna do about it? Whilst it does somewhat boosts your egos as members of the white race beyond that, just how does that help you as whitemen, in the land of the black men?

You wasting too much energy on inconsequential arguments as if to say all these so called whitemen’s achievements are something that he takes to his grave. Man, get a life. You came into this world in your birthday suit you leave this world the same way. No big deal!

As Peter Tosh once sang, “I AM NOT IN THIS WORLD TO LIVE UP TO YOUR EXPECTATIONS, NEITHER ARE YOU HERE TO LEAVE UP TO MINE…..I SAY I AM THAT I AM, I AM, I AM!”

The whiteman’s obsession with the blackman and Africa is truly bewildering to say the least. Whilst the Indian, the chinese, the Malay, the Coloured, the Red Indian, the Maori, the Aborigine keeps to himself and his way of life, the white men just CANNOT leave the Blackman alone - ONLY GOD KNOWS WHY!!!

(Report abuse)

@Consulting Engineer

Thank you for pointing out that Emeagwali is not all he makes out to be. He did singlehandedly win first place in the category Best Price-Performance of the 1989 Gordon Bell Supercomputing Prize. But he has exaggerated his achievements. His self promotion is obvious, so I should have done more research first before naming him as an outstanding African.

I did some checks on Percy Julian after reading your comments. His entry at the National Academies (not a black organization!) www.nas.edu/history/members/julian.html states “he was noted for having synthesized and identified physostigmine, a drug used to treat glaucoma, to improve memory in Alzheimer’s patients, and as an antidote to nerve gas”.
Wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Lavon_Julian ) mentions that he paved the way for others synthesize cortisone.
So, I have to admit - I chose the wrong source when looking for some words on Percy Julian. He may have gotten to the hall of shame due to others misrepresenting the facts about his work. He was inducted into Inventor’s Hall of Fame some 15 years after his death. He was nevertheless, a great chemist and he succeeded despite much discrimination during his earlier years.

I stand by my statement that many black Africans have made important contributions to modern science and engineering. Many hold top or influential positions, like CEO, CTO, chief scientist etc. in several high tech firms and also state enterprises, govt research labs and universities in Europe and North America (and in fact, throughout the world). Agreed, there may be relatively few of them in such top posts.
As you did not like the previous two examples, here are a few more black engineers or scientist who have risen to the top.
Dr. Hyacinth Nwana won multiple awards for innovation including the DEC European Artificial Intelligence Prize in 1991, the top British Computer Society award for IT innovation in 1997, and top BT (British Telecom) technical award in 1998.
PT Kabamba, a real ” rocket scientist” originally from Zaire, is professor in the Department of Aerospace Engineering University of Michigan.
For an example of a renowned African scientist who is famous for his work IN Africa, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_R._Odhiambo.

As for my reference on history of the Bantu, you had asked (Bonginkosi, I think) for proof that Bantu were here 1500 years ago.
There is certainly evidence that the Bantu were here long before the Portuguese rounded the southern tip of Africa. Such information was deliberately kept out of school history books when I was at school. The existence of the Mapungubwe Kingdom about a thousand years ago was a state secret during the previous two governments.
As regards Nguni speaking tribes colonising or conquering earlier inhabitants, I cannot comment, as I do not have all the facts. It is well known that throughout the world, stronger groups/nations have conquered weaker groups/nations for millenia, and invariably the stronger occupied the most fertile land of the newly conquered. Some nations exterminated the original natives, while others like the dominant Han ethnic group in China allowed the aboriginal groups or minority groups (e.g. south of the present Great Wall) to exist within the Chinese empire. What the true facts are about the southward Bantu migration, I will probably learn about one day.

(Report abuse)

Amused reader,Old Fox and others

I does not matter how many examples you bring
to the debate, world history has not been dominated
by the scientists or those thirsting for knowledge
but by those who control the masses,either by
power or subversion and use them to further their own agendas.

The discovery of gun powder etc was not used
for humane purposes but to wage war in an effort
to gain greater control over land and resources.

We see this happening on our continent, leaders
are more concerned about their own interest than
that of their followers and will happily destroy
a country to show that they are in control.

They pay lip service to the aids epidemic,crime
wave deteriorating services and will only under
immense pressure launch investigations to show
that they are indeed concerned.

The ancient rulers and conquerors showed that
at least many of them had the brains to use the skilled artisans, engineers etc of the nations they conquerored to help them to achieve many of their engineering feats,that they did so by force
another story.

But our dear ANC government would rather revert
to AA and BEE than to use all the skills available
to make this a better country.

Am I cynical no not at all,I am realistic and
know that I am watching a slow moving repeat of
what has happened in so many other countries on
the African continent.

It may take years to happen and people will
only wake up the day they enter food stores and
find the shelves empty because those who stocked
their shelves are no longer there.

Instead of writing clever stories on these blogs
people should get of their easy chairs and couches
and see for themselves what is happening in our
Argriculture sector.

If they do that there is still a chance the whole
thing can be turned around. Now don’t come back
and tell me it is all in the name of land distribution and return of land to the landless.

(Report abuse)

@ oldfox.

Please give it up. You have lost all credibility, certainly in my eyes.

My time is limited and I would rather spend my time on here using the truth to change the mindset of the anti-white racists who are persecuting my race for its honourable history in this country.

(Report abuse)

@Khosa

Welcome. Have you joined us here to take refuge from the racism elsewhere on TL? Everywhere you turn there is a blog with the word ‘Kaffir’ in the title: Sandile, Khaya, Pierre De Vos, Ndumiso etc. Elsewhere the journalists are fighting racial war over the Black journalist forum. The ethnic slurs are flying faster than at an AWB rally. I can’t keep up with it.

Damn, it is so racist and hateful out there. At least here we are a close knit family of white and black racists and our fans and detractors. It seems like the only peace is to be found here, where we can fire our volleys and unite in liberal bashing.

Its the African Rennaissance. Isnt freedom of speech great?

So fire away my friend and have a good laugh.

(Report abuse)

@Khoza

See, here’s the thing. I don’t believe that this actually is the land of the black men, nor the white. I believe we all have the right to live here, and that our colour should not matter (Doesn’t make me sound very racist does it, certainly less so than your suggestion that i, as a white, do not belong here)

Why does it matter?

Because people are living in abject poverty, dying from Aids when it has been controlled virtually everywhere else in the world, and the situation is getting worse not better. Maybe you don’t care how many die needlessly, but i actually do.

Why cant we whites leave you alone?

Well actually it is you who wont leave us alone. AA, BEE, sports quotas, land re-distribution…. What do you think ‘Transformation’ means?

Yes some of this debate has become racism under the guise of a debate, but it is actually people like you, and your half-baked emotional propaganda, mixed with denial of the problems that face us that feed that racism.

Most white people want nothing more than to be left in peace, and are quite happy to integrate into a multi-cultural society, they just aren’t willing to become the whipping boys of some black political vendettas.

Finally, you never came back with a repsonse to my reply to your earlier post. You have refuted absolutely my suggestion that African culture is to blame, but offered no alternative reason. On this post is see you say “so what” if African civilisation is behind. Is that a change of view, or are you finding evidence a little hard to go with your rhetoric?

@ Consulting Engineer

My emphasis was on the ’sub’, but maybe i chose the wrong word. As i think you are well aware my meaning was that that they are not any less worthy than us whites.

@ Eagle

Just don’t buy the whole inferiority thing about blacks, sorry. Have seen far too many extraordinarily gifted individuals for this to be true. Have you traveled much outside of Africa? If not I think there is a whole new world out there that might just surprise you.

(Report abuse)

Should we blacks get excited and jump up and down about incompetent whiteys….. oh no, no, we are a much, much reasonable lot. Let the story unfold…

Millions hit by Florida power cut
27/02/2008 08:37 - (SA)

Miami - A massive power outage struck parts of Florida on Tuesday, knocking out electricity to millions, snarling traffic and trapping people in elevators.

AND AGAIN ….Should we have…????

On August 14, 2003, New York City and much of the Northeast and parts of the Midwest United States suffered a blackout that affected 50 million people. It was widely seen as the worst blackout in North American history.

That outage stranded hundreds of thousands of commuters and trapped subway riders underground in New York City, where thousands of people spent a hot night sleeping on sidewalks or walking miles in the darkness to reach their homes.

MAYBE AMERICA IS ALSO RETURNING TO THE DARK AGES…I GUESS THEY ALSO HAVE AFFIRMATIVE ACTION AND BEE.

And now………THE MARK OF A CIVILISED RACE!!!

“UFS horror race video surfaces
26/02/2008 23:26 - (SA)

The Rector of the University of the Free State, Professor Frederick Fourie, addresses journalists in Bloemfontein. (Emile Hendricks, Volksblad)

Henry Cloete and Sapa

Bloemfontein - A racism bombshell hit the University of the Free State (UFS) on Tuesday when a video was distributed showing five black cleaners at a traditionally white men’s residence on the campus being “initiated”.

Amid loud laughter, they are shown taking part in races, downing beers and drinking a mixture in which a student had secretly urinated………..”

What else should we the backward poor blacks say,except to keep the wheels of affirmative action and BEE tight and moving until kingdom come. Care to tell us why so-called innocent young whites should be considered innocent and included in affirmative action and BEE programmes when all they inherit from their evil parents is their previleged status,racism and more racism???

(Report abuse)

Khoza,

“how does that help you as whitemen, in the land of the black men?”
“The Whiteman’s obsession with the blackman and Africa is truly bewildering to say the least. Whilst the Indian, the chinese, the Malay, the Coloured, the Red Indian, the Maori, the Aborigine keeps to himself and his way of life, the white men just CANNOT leave the Blackman alone - ONLY GOD KNOWS WHY!!!”

Eagle says:

Firstly. This is as much our country as it is yours. It is the white man who developed and built up this country and who skilled and educated all of its people, white and black. Do not think that because a few white cowards, i.e. the pc liberals, are so ready to confess guilt on all our behalves, sell their own race down the river and then run away overseas, that we are all like that. Like it or not, we are here to stay.

What is truly bewildering is the black man’s obsession with whites. We gave GIVEN you independence, we have GIVEN you the vote, we have HANDED OVER power to you, you are 55 million against 4 million, yet you cannot stop persecuting the white minority. Everything you do is motivated by untrue allegations of “injustices of the past” by whites. You rename structures, town and cities built by whites because it reminds you of “the injustices of the past” committed by whites.

Although you have already promulgated more than 62 racist laws punishing present day whites for the “injustices of the past” committed by their “ancestors” are far back as 350 years, complete ignoring the “injustices of the past” committed by your own race, virtually all of parliaments time is taken up with promulgating more anti-white racist legislation and institutionalized grabbing from whites based on “correcting the imbalances” “created by the past actions of the whites”.

Leave us alone and get on with your lives. Use the combine power of your massive population to do something for yourself instead of obsessing about the property of whites and how to get it into your own hands, and we will leave you alone.

Now YOU ALSO KNOW WHY.

(Report abuse)

@ Ivo Vegter,

What must have surprised you and many other liberals, is the flood of anti-white hate speech and untrue propaganda emitting from blacks on here in response to the balanced objective postings of whites.

Whereas the liberal sees black people as poor innocents, disadvantaged and maltreated by whites, all 55 million of them maltreated by 4 million of us, many of them are actually a seething cauldron, motivated by untrue, inflammatory propaganda just waiting for an opportunity to grab what is not their property, never mind the fact that when the grabbing starts in earnest the little of whatever there is, property, businesses, capital, etc. will go to the politicians and not the man in the street and, of course, ultimately to the next wave of “colonials”.
(PS to the libbers, wagging fingers poised to go into action - No, of course I am not saying all black people are the same.)

It is frightening that people like Lozola and probably many of the black population believe lies such as that white WWII soldiers were given farms for fighting in the war and only fought because they were promised riches after the war. This demonstrates the lies which seems to be permeating these communities and bodes very ill for the future. Open communication and highlighting of these self-serving propaganda lies of the past is crucial.

I’m saying this in response to the calls for a “racist” blog by many posters on here and which I also support.

(Report abuse)

@amused reader

Your last post was excellent.

I knew you did not mean less worthy. The concept of subspecies does not imply lower worth, just a genetic difference. I understand your position.

Is a Rotweiller less worthy than a Labrador? They are just different and have different phsyical and personality traits. Funny enough, they are more likely to interbreed than 2 human races.

We all acknowledge some breeds are more intelligent than others, some more aggressive etc. So why the taboo on acknowledging differences between human races?

(Report abuse)

@Eagle

White liberals are humans who understand humanity, that is why racists like some of you just cannot tolerate them. Some of you call it apologising for being white, I do not agree. These are progressives who have come to accept that despite all our differences what is more important above everything else, above any such things as the so-called civilisation standards, scientific discoveries, human achievements etc, we are all human and any sense of humanity demands that we respect each other for that simple fact and not anything else.

Obviously racists do not understand this language. They are only driven by materialism, one’s worth being how many university degress he accumulates, properties he owns, how much money he has, whether he has leadership qualities, etc and the desire to impose your own value systems on the rest of the world. It is for these reasons that not only Africa, but the Middle East, and the far East will always be at loggerheads with the West. It is people like you racists here in Africa and the West who have unwittingly natured the Mugabes and Osama Bin Laden of this world.

Care to tell me why most whiteys in the west despite their so-called achievements,the concrete jungles, the space technology, the big cars etc, why they NOW run away from those same achievements, flock to Africa despite its poverty, the East with its myriad of religions and strange traditions and customs to walk bare footed in the scotching African and Asian sun, wrapping themselves with the traditional clothing, Indian saris they buy in these places and even some dumping their own Christian religion to take up our African/Asian religions? Let me tell you why all you racists, that is what happens when you pursue materialism blindly - life soon loses its meaning and you realise that your so-called western white standards by which you want to judge the rest of the world are indeed meaningless without the sense of humanity I am talking about. Africans and Asians have always been closer to nature, hence they have always been way ahead of you because they understand this!!

Your last posting surely deserves my venom pink nose. You are the very kind who give the whitemen a bad name, the world over. Quit this nonsense of the whitemen developing this country. I told you your ancestors came here as settlers, uninvited. Do you dispute that? You invade my home, find that it has no furniture and you start decorating it and buying furniture and everything - do you expect that I will be impressed and say ok my friend now that you have decorated my home you now have a share, you can stay - that’s absolute nonsense. If you are uninvited you remain uninvited, and a settler remains a settler, it doesn’t matter what he does to appease me. He can only stay or remain on my own terms, get that??

It is true, the whitemen’s obsession with the blackman and Africa is truly bewildering - no other race as I stated earlier come any closer. The Black man never left his continent to invade Europe, so we have never been obsessed by you people, rather it has always been the other way round. I have no hesitation to tell you once again that it is you who have to leave us alone - you touched the hornet’s nest, we didn’t!!!!

(Report abuse)

@ Khoza

I have just read your reply to Eagle, and the first section was fantastic. I agree wholeheartedly that materialism is not the be all and end all of life, and the way you expressed the point was magnificent. I was even starting to wonder if i had misjudged you, until i read the utter tripe in the second part.

I wholeheartedly agree that Africans, and every other nation/race on earth can choose the life they wish to lead. If you choose a traditional life then that is great, there is much to admire in the traditional African life. Just don’t complain if someone following the capitalist lifestyle has a BMW, a big house and owns more that his fair share of the countries wealth, as you suggest he is poorer in other ways as a result. This is, after all, the biggest reason why we have such unequal wealth distribution in this country (and for whats it’s worth just about every other country).

Now the furniture & decoration bit. What are your smoking? I hadn’t realised that the true indigenous tribes had invited you into SA so that you could slaughter them, must be my mistake.

You moan about us being racist, but on the tip of so many black peoples tongues (and you just said it) we whites don’t belong here. No matter that every country in every continent can trace back their history though invasions and occupations, Africa (and Africans) think they have some special right to turn the clock back a few hundred years, and deny people who have been here generation upon generation (and longer than many of the so called ‘indigenous people’ have been here)the right to call Africa their home. That is nonsense.

The last part of your comment, really plays into the hands of Consulting engineer & co.

“The Black man never left his continent to invade Europe”

I am sure their keyboards are red hot pointing out that you didn’t have the technology or the navigation skills to leave (otherwise i am sure you would have), so you made do creating murder and mayhem within the continent (In fairness as did every other nation on earth at that time, but best you don’t single yourselves out for a national nobel peace prize). When the ships finally came you were more than happy to round up your people and sell them into slavery.

(Report abuse)

@ Khoza.
Oh dear. Rather quit it. Scroll up and read Great White’s post. Also, my brother was assaulted by 4 Black men a while back, they cut his fingers off with a knife. They took nothing, not even his chopped off fingers or his cell phone or wallet. Was his White skin the only motivation? Mmmm… The police didn’t even bother finding the bastards. What more do you want from us? I know many more similar stories if you want to hear it. It looks more as if it is the Blacks that are obsessed with the Whities.

(Report abuse)

A Khoza,

Is it an English comprehension problem or is it the Rasta, Reggae Brother? Despite me giving you the facts to support what I’m saying you still haven’t answered any of my comments but go off on a righteous rant every time.

We have already gone down the road of ancestry many times and I have already told you many times that no-one here today I responsible of the actions of people 350 years ago. Are the Americans giving the USA back to the Red Indians, are the Australians giving Australia back to the aborigines, are your warring ancestors giving the land back to the tribes which they murdered and chased off their land, are the descendants of Chaka giving the land back to the 3 million people that Chaka murdered, enslaved and displaced, etc. etc. I have also told you previously that all life originated in Africa so your ancestors are also my ancestors, in terms of your reasoning.

If it was not the Dutch or the British who landed here to trade fairly, it would have been someone else. Your ancestors, given that you are even South African, were fair game in terms of the laws of the time, because you were so undeveloped.

If you do not like what we have done then why do you make use of our clothing, our vehicles, our education system, our communication media, our housing, our offices, our currency, our TVs, our computers, our email facilities and music equipment, etc. etc. What is stopping you from going back to the bush and living in splendid isolation? For more info on my comments go back and read my previous 10 posts to you and then we do not have to go around in circles.

I really do not feel like repeating myself but if you go through the facts which I gave you for the black fascination with whites or rather the possessions of the whites, then it is all purely materialistic, land grabbing through the racist, punitive Land Redistribution Act, job grabbing through AA and EE, contract grabbing through BEE, you think Tokyo Sexwale and took the R 46 billion which they got moved in their direction because they were not materialistic, and my domestic was told by a group of blacks recently that they’ve already earmarked my house for after they’ve dispatched me.

Why don’t you demonstrate your superior intelect by sticking to the facts for a change, so that we can get on with running OUR country.

(Report abuse)

@ Amused Reader

You say
“Just don’t buy the whole inferiority thing about blacks, sorry. Have seen far too many extraordinarily gifted individuals for this to be true. Have you traveled much outside of Africa? If not I think there is a whole new world out there that might just surprise you.”

I have traveled enough thank you, but that is not the point. What you are really saying is that there are no “Great” blacks in this country and that one has to go to other countries to find them, which is a contradiction in terms as blacks in other countries has been influenced by white majorities for the most parts and have a healthy touch of the white brush in many cases, such as Obama.

If you know of any such “Great” South African blacks then please let me have their names. And please do not use the examples of the usual lauded black elite i.e. Cyril Ramaphosa, Tokyo Sexwale, etc. These people were given BEE contracts amounting to R 49 billion over 5 years to be exact, to the exclusion of their fellow countrymen. They are not self-made men or great inventors.

Then you get someone like Khoza raving about materialism which is only a smokescreen to divert attention away from the fact that all the racist, discriminatory, legislation and actions against whites is all about materialism. It is about trying to find some institutionalized way to steal the property of whites and get away with it.

But what has Khoza actually done for his own people. What has he done about a few black elite making millions from BEE whilst their countrymen go hungry? For that he would rather lounge under the gangey smoke and blame the white man whilst the white Liberals tells him how amazing he is.

No my friend, I have been involved with these wonderful black people all my live from a caring humanistic viewpoint and I have done more for them than I have for my own people, but, during my 40 something years I have not found one who could run a country, and that is the issue here.

(Report abuse)

Dont you feel like crying,my posts are gone.

(Report abuse)

@Eagle,
“Please give it up” you wrote. What exactly I’m I supposed to give up?
You state: “I would rather spend my time on here using the truth to change the mindset of the anti-white racists who are persecuting my race for its honourable history in this country.”

Has it not occurred to you that maybe someone with a different view may agree with some of your points in you stated them in a less inflammatory way?
Its understandable that victims or family members of victims of brutally violent crime like Great White or Psuedo are very bitter. Most South Africans would condemn crimes such as the one mentioned by Psuedo, which seems racially motivated.
Not only whites are victims of brutal crime in SA. Two different black men, each in a different incident in KZN, had their eyes gouched out after being robbed by black thugs.
Most blacks do not condone crime when the victims are white, and many of those who wrote letters of support for Razelle after she was shot, were black.

If we as South Africans are going to pull through these very difficult times, then we are going to have to work together. We will have to talk to each other, and we also have to listen to each other. (men tend to be poor listeners!).

At the first company I worked for, people of all races were interdependent upon each other in the factory. This was during the 1980s. If any one racial group had been suddenly and completely removed - black, coloured, white, people of Indian descent, that factory would have quickly ground to a halt. There were talented staff of all races, and mediocre staff of all races. One of the artisans was exceptionally talented - as a first year electronics apprentice, he taught 3rd year apprentices. He had more ability than some mediocre graduate engineers. He was black. Most of those he taught, were white.
Isolated racial incidents did occur on the factory floor, but were extremely rare, and there occurrence would not upset what I would term the racial harmony and mutual respect among staff. There was some uneasiness in the mid 1980s, when people were being “necklaced” in one of the townships from whence many of these staff were drawn, and there were a number of politically inspired stayaways when township dwellers were threatened with violence if the pitched up for work, but afterwards, things would return to normal, and we’d work together as a big team.

I’m now with another large company. Again, people of different races are interdependent upon each other. We sink or swim together. AA is a new phenomenon in the workplace. It does result in some whites leaving, so that they can progress. But we also have whites who train or teach or coach young blacks (and sometimes coloureds and Indians). Most of these whites (who do the training or skills transfer), are Afrikaans speaking. Some of the people they train, may end up becoming their bosses. The older among them would remember a time when job reservation was in place, when the best jobs or certain categories of jobs in the company were reserved for whites. Are there white racists and black racists in this company? Maybe, but if there are, they don’t antagonise people of other races, and they therefore do no harm in the workplace.

On this blog, I read of people who complain about racism in the workplace. At some companies, racist e-mail (usually directed against blacks, but anti-white racists may also do this) gets circulated on the company internal network. So I have to acknowledge that racism in the workplace does exist. Racism elsewhere does exist too. A colleague said when his 80 year old mom goes to a public hospital, she is called ”white bitch” by the nurses. Maybe I have been very fortunate in that I have not encountered racial intolerance at my first or last places of employment.

Back to my original point. Inflammatory words and suchlike (hate speech, insults,…) will never solve anything, but are almost guaranteed to exacerbate tensions. The worst thing that can happen, is that we all get sucked into a downward spiral that can eventually engulf the entire country. Several Latin American countries at different times, the former Yugoslavia in the 1990s and now Kenya have been plunged into internal strife.

Namibia too had a painful past. An Afrikaans colleague visited that country recently, and said they are making “more progress than SA”. People have put the past behind them, he said. “They are friendly, they speak Afrikaans in the streets” he enthused.

It is incumbent upon all of us, to do what we can to help improve the country. The top political leadership has to play a key role. But rest of us have to do something constructive, if is within our means to do so.

(Report abuse)

I am in a state of total depression,why,because
‘WordPress’ this morning told me to slow down,but I am sorry,I haven’t got a hundred years left,so whatever I want to say and do,I must do in a hurry.

No please correct me if am wrong,because one is
never too old to learn.Vegter what does that mean?

I once had I dog called ‘Vegter’ but for different
reasons. Mr. Thoughtleader, if you surname is
indeed the ‘Afrikaans Vegter’ may I please know
at this late stage,which cause you’re promoting
and why your remark.

‘ Finally,we know the filthy
crevices from which they launch their forays.
No we know the pseudonyms by which they go,which
organisations they belong to,and what they believe
in.No we know the white supremacists who hang out
hear on Thought leader’.

Now this is such a biased remark that it almost
borders on the paranoid.

Time has arrived for you to clearly spell out
your vision of what South Africa should look like
and state it clearly and not hide behind remarks
such as qouted above.

You see Sir by using words such as ‘filthy crevices’ you are painting a picture that ‘White
supremacists’ are no more than cockroaches on which the liberal spray should be used untill
they are dead or converted,whichever comes first”

Now you complain about the lack of racial harmony
but your picture of us is so distorted,that in
the mind of readers who do not share our passion
and vision,we are now more but inferior human
beings.

Now please give your vision of the future South
Africa so what we can have a proper debate and
in which you don’t have to lower yourself to the
extremes you have already done.

Are you a Vegter?

(Report abuse)

@Khosa

You brought this up:

And now………THE MARK OF A CIVILISED RACE!!!

“UFS horror race video surfaces
26/02/2008 23:26 - (SA) ”

What was your purpose? Is it some kind of smear campaign to somehow imply or suggest that the we whites here on TL or the white right are somehow associated with it, or that we support it? Do you suggest any of us are in any way connected with these students? That we belong to the same groups? Are you implying we are hate filled monsters or lunatics, as Ivo tried to do? There is no evidence for any such slanderous allegations and it surprised and shocked me as much as you.

No. It is only a hate crime committed by individuals, not any group. As civilised people we strongly condemn such actions as this and Skeerpoort. Such things are undignified acts against innocents and only further bring hatred down on whites and further repression. This is self defeating.

Whites want to live in this country in peace, and this act undermines this goal. The white groups Ivo slanders only have the goal of white survival and promotion of our culture, which are values I share. Is there anything wrong with that?

I have challenged Ivo and now I challenge you to find one place where they or I promote any hate crime against any other group as a policy. In fact you will find they and myself condemn any such action. We certainly do not promote nor discuss ways to harm Blacks or any group, and such things would be deleted immediately and the proponents banned. But we will condemn things destructive to whites, such as race mixing, low birth rates, crime, multicult assimilation, uncontrolled immigration, social and family breakdown, drugs etc.

We promote traditional families,culture,honouring our past, making a better world for our children and instruction in their culture, freedom of association, safety and security etc. Perhaps you and me only differ in what we see as a better world.

We complain about the crime and discrimination we experience presently and only want to highlight the hypocrisy in the ‘non-racial’ SA and in the white liberals in general. They will condemn whites but never blacks. A few others here also noted we are the only ones that highlight liberal hypocracy. Many of these are white, so we don’t target anyone racially.

Crimes against whites are conveniently swept under the rug. We do not speak against anyone only for the colour of their skin but speak up against anything anti-white and fallacies that are destructive to our nations, such as the belief that whites are invaders and Blacks are innocent indigenous people. We both migrated here and must now live here. We just prefer to live within our own culture.

The only link you can make between the UOVS students and I and 99.9999999% of whites is that our skin colour is the same. By that token, are you responsible for all crimes committed by Blacks? That is ridiculous.

Would you even condemn crimes where a Black criminal brutally murders a family for a cell phone? Is that not a hate crime?

It is never made out to be, yet it is no different than UOVS and skeerpoort. That is the issue I would highlight. Hate crimes against whites are not labelled as such, but when against blacks they are made big media events.

Do you think this is even fair?

So please Meneer Khosa, you are welcome to debate with us in a friendly rational manner, and i ask you nicely to refrain from personally slandering specific whites or groups for things we are not repsonsible for.

If you wish to criticise the government for creating this environment of racial intolerance by their policies of letting crime get out of control, corruption and BEE and such discrimination, if you wish to criticise the media for trying to make a rosy picture and stifle discussions of the underlying problems, then we would have common ground.

(Report abuse)

@Old fox

Re your post to eagle, I agree with your principles, but I think you are confused about who is using the hate speech. Most of the name calling and insults have come from white liberals and blacks. It is them using inflammatory words. Have any of white ‘righties’ resorted to that? None of us advocate hate.

I fact we don’t respond to it, only highlight it whenever someone calls us ‘idiots’ ‘beneath them’ ’stupid’, ‘nazis’, ‘racists’, pack up and leave’ ‘we should drive you into the sea’ etc.

I think your other points I covered in post to Khoza

(Report abuse)

@amused reader, pseudo & Eagle

I kind of clean forgot to tell you this story, I had in mind, just to support my previous posting.

On one of my trips to China I was with this white businessman and we went all the way up to JILIN in the north east. At some restraunt these Chinese guys we were chatting remarked to this white guy

“Oh you from Sas Africa, - Africa!! but you white!!!”.

“Sas Africa Mandela nice. Me not like Gorge Bush, no, no, not nice!!.

And in India in the early eighties, soon after independence,there was this all white Zimbabwean cricket team playing with the Indian side. These Indians speaking to some Zimbabwean guys also renmarked,

“Oh you from Zimbabwe, Zimbabwe Europe? Africa? - team white??”

NEED I SAY MORE!!!

(Report abuse)

@Khosa

What is your point? That chinese in a restaurant in China and Indians in India are experts on the Anthropology and history of the peoples of Africa?

If your point is to make humour, then yes, funny funny my friend!

(Report abuse)

@ Khoza

Forgetting your politics, you must be about the worst debater i have come across.

“Need i say more”

what have you actually said? Because some guy you met in china is not sufficiently educated to know that there are 4m whites in SA, or than an Indian you met doesn’t know Zimbabwe is in Africa, proves that we don’t belong here?

Really, that has to be about the most stupid point anyone has ever made on Though leader.

If i find someone in the USA that thinks Lions roam the street of jo’burg (and i am led to believe there are a few such idiots)does that make it true.

Like it or not, we all have to face the facts. White people built this country, and made it what it is, white people oppressed the black majority to achieve it, we all have the right to live here, and neither group is more worthy than the other. Ultimately we need to find a way to live together.
You need us, we need you.

Once we can rid ourselves of all kinds of racial discrimination (and right now us whites are the victims of it, and we don’t like it, or deserve it any more than you did) then we can move forward together.

Part of that process is for people like you to accept that we have just as much a right to be here as you, and we have a right to be not discriminated against because of our colour, just like you. We have a right to complain when the government fails to look after the national assets it has inherited, we have a right to complain when we have the highest murder and rape figures in the world, and when the most dangerous job in the country is to be a white farmer (not a farmer, a White farmer). Why do we deserve any less?

(Report abuse)

Just a quick note. I’m not ignoring comments. In fact, some have been an endless source of amusement. Others deserve a serious response. I’m usually able to keep up, but have been hamstrung by dodgy internet connectivity and obligations away from my office this week. I’ll return next week, full of new knowledge about this mysterious left-liberal ideology of which you all speak so highly.

(Report abuse)

@Ivo

I am glad you are also amused. I would also like to hear this leftist ‘ideology’.

What happened to my post to Khosa condemning the UOVS thing and the implication that whites are a crazed race?

(Report abuse)

@ Khoza,

Yes, please SAY MORE. I don’t get your point at all or is it just a boast about your trip to China. Is this Red China you went to and who paid? I am also astounded that you who just want to be left alone in the bush, have not hesitated to make use of our airplanes and accommodation facilities and of-course the filthy money of the capitalists for your trips, when it suited you. And don’t forget, Chinese are also white people so they are also responsible for your misery in Africa if one follows your line of reasoning about this ancestor thing.

Or is this just another attempt to sidetrack the discussion because you have are unable to answer to my points.

Let me tell you about my trips to Japan. During my first trip the Japanese wanted to know about the black people in SA. All they knew about was the propaganda lies that had been spread overseas and wanted to know from me how many black people I had shot in the streets and what sort of dogs I have that kill black people.

I tried not to laugh and I told them that I have never seen a black person shot in the streets except when they were rioting against the legitimate gov of the time and attacking police stations in the townships and then they were shot with rubber bullets, and that my dogs love my domestic more than they love me.

Then I invited them to South Africa and they lived here for 6 months and worked in my factory with the locals. In their exit meeting with me they told me that they felt that the propaganda misinformation spread overseas by people like yourselves about SA whites abusing blacks, were a pack of lies and that they would tell the truth to everyone they meet. They were extremely complimentary about relations between the races in my factory, what was being done for the indigenous workers and South Africa in general and said that it was a lot better than in most countries overseas.

(Report abuse)

Eagle
The post you are adressing about the Chinese and Indians was a follow up on a previous post which the Editors, I assume in their wisdom decided not to publish. So obviously that is why you understanding this one out of context.

(Report abuse)

@amused reader

Your post to Khosa, amen brother.

If Khosa keeps it up he will turn you, white liberals and probably even many blacks themselves into raving white supremacists out of frustration ha ha!

Come to think of it, maybe he is a white supremacist undercover. He seems to be doing more for the white cause than the rest of us ha ha!

I agree with Ivo. At times this thread can be amusing.Nothing like humour to bring people together.

@Cooldown

You said “White supremacists’ are no more than cockroaches on which the liberal spray should be used untill they are dead”

My God. Are you saying that Ivo and liberals are Nazis that plan to gas us?

I think they used the wrong gas. They used Nitrous oxide laughing gas as i am about to die from laughter.

(Report abuse)

@Consulting Engineer
The name is KHOZA and not KHOSA ok, just try to be an African for once since you claim to be one. Let’s learn to NOT only pronounce African words properly by listening and asking those in the know but to COPY the proper spellings as well. If you go back to all your postings you will realise I have been ignoring this as a typo but it’s gone on for far too long, it’s about time I corrected it. Requesting that a world be COPIED well is not too much to ask, I guess, is it?

(Report abuse)

@ oldfart

Reading stuff like yours is really tiresome. Firstly, most of your postings on here have been hopelessly inaccurate. Secondly there is the groupspeak psychobabble. The things which you posted on here have been posted over and over, hundreds of times. However, there is always one more idiot than you think, so let’s go down that road again:

What you are advocating is similar to Mbeki’s quiet diplomacy with regards to his cowardly approach to Mad Bob Mugabe. Please look around you and tell me what you pc libbers have achieved with this approach. What we have is, amongst other things, the highest crime rate in the world, massive government corruption and criminality, a crumbling infrastructure, a rampant uncontrolled population explosion in the midst of endemic poverty. In addition we have the never-ending institutionalized discrimination and racism against whites perpetuated through the legal and constitutional system. And matters are steadily getting worse, at an accelerated pace.

You presume to know me but you do not have a clue. Do you know, for instance, that I have recently expended R 1,5 million of my funds on training and setting up of 2 000 people in sustainable businesses, most of them blacks. Today many of them have already made their first million. What have you done besides wagging the finger?

Liberals like that you demean the suffering of other people for your own agenda. One of our large telecommunications companies has, over the past 5 years, retrenched more than 15 000 people, most of them whites and many of them longserving loyal specialists, no longer young, who were demoted to temporary caretakers of their jobs and forced to train those that would take their jobs and you say “AA is a new phenomenon in the workplace. It does result in some whites leaving, so that they can progress”.
What rubbish. Are you even in this country? How will white people of this age progress if all jobs are reserved for AA candidates?

Then this gem of yours. “The older among them would remember a time when job reservation was in place, when the best jobs or certain categories of jobs in the company were reserved for whites”.

I started working in 1968. Then already most of the large companies were putting Affirmative Action in place. Amongst other things, this was as a result of a dictate forced down by the American companies, called the Sullivan Principles, which forced these companies and their component suppliers to have a realistic AA program and to enforce it in the workplace. Most other companies in the formal sector employed people best skilled for the jobs and put people on a training program for internal promotion to enable all races to progress.

There was no job reservation for whites amongst the medium and large companies as these companies used HR departments who worked within a set scope which already then incorporated AA, although some jobs were reserved for people with the education and skills, and nothing prevented blacks from obtaining an education, as I also had to, albeit after hours, having no funds for fulltime university.

During the 1970’s there were training programs for introducing black people into formally white areas in the workplace and cultural teambuilding programs so that the various races would learn to understand each other and work together. During the early 1980,s I worked in Bophuthatswana where we were busy with the selection and training of hundreds of black managers to take over from whites after the 5 year tenure of whites would expire after which they would have to leave the country. During this time hundreds of whites were displaced. Their houses and farms are still in the homelands although horribly ruined by this time.

Many companies employed more blacks than whites as blacks were better suited to some jobs such as manufacturing. Even then there were training programs in place for their advancement so that you now see many black foreman and managers in companies such as VW, GM etc.

So, once again, you have prattled on with your inaccurate “facts”. What a waste of time.

My intention in posting on here is to expose the “lies of the past” perpetuated by the greedy and the stupid, on which this whole racist dicriminary deck of cards is based. I do not expect to make friends in the process.

And oh yes, last week my property was burglared for the eigth time in 9 months.

(Report abuse)

Uhm, Khoza… Did you by any chance mean to say: “Requesting that a WORD be COPIED well…” instead of: “Requesting that a WORLD be COPIED well…? (You did it on purpose, didn’t you?)

It is a bit too much asked… well… perhaps not, because you have Engineer in this Pinky and the Brain cartoon series.

You are great entertainment my China!

(Report abuse)

@cool down who quoted Ivo´s hate-filled slanderous words against those he also slanders as “white supremacists”, rather than the “race realists” we really are…

‘ Finally,we know the filthy
crevices from which they launch their forays.
No we know the pseudonyms by which they go,which
organisations they belong to,and what they believe
in.No we know the white supremacists who hang out
hear on Thought leader’.

Now you complain about the lack of racial harmony
but your picture of us is so distorted,that in
the mind of readers who do not share our passion
and vision,we are now more but inferior human
beings.

Well said..!!! And yet Ivo expressed mocking “amazement” (”thats the first time anyone has accused me of being a left-wing idealogue”) when in an earlier post I said as much.

(Report abuse)

@ Eagle

I enjoyed reading your post very much, it was very informative. Furthermore, irrespective of all of our respective politics, we must never forget that it is the ‘do-ers’ who will make it better for all. Think your ‘training’ scheme sounds fantastic, well done.

(Report abuse)

@ Khosa,

How do you expect us to copy a whole World?

Or is it just Africa you want copied, or maybe just South Africa? That’s a good idea, twice as much to grab. There is method in the madness after all.

Durban poison rules, my bra.

(Report abuse)

@Khosa, er Xhosa, I mean Khoza!

I will learn to pronounce the african words on condition all of you learn to pronounce in english and afrikaans.

Repeat after me: its worker, (werk-err), or werker.

Not wekka.

(Report abuse)

@inviniveritas

Come now broer and fellow realist, we mustn’t resort to insults and hate speech. Calling someone a left wing idealogue; sinking to emotive slogans and such horrible names, now that is low!

Next you will be saying “Jou Ma skuld my hond
kleingeld”

(Report abuse)

@Eagle

But you have made friends broer.

People must get off the fence and say what they please, not just follow someone else and say what the liberal media wants them to.

if they don’t like it, its them that has the problem.

(Report abuse)

@Eagle
I never said copy a WORLD.Surely common sense should tell you that is a typing error, just get rid of the “L” instead of dwelling on trivia - someone please find him a descent day’s job for once.

(Report abuse)

@Eagle
I never said copy a WORLD.Surely common sense should tell you that is a typing error, just get rid of the “L” instead of dwelling on trivia - someone please find him a decent day’s job for once.

(Report abuse)

@consulting engineer
Oh! so the mispelling/mispronounciation of African words is deliberate, because as an African I have to learn to pronounce English and Afrikaans words properly first before you do - I didn’t know.

Whilst we are at it, please tell that to French President Nicolas Sarkozy and Football coach Paul Dolezer, before you expect me to do the same. It should not be difficult for them after all they are white just like you. At least I can speak proper English but they can’t, not only that they DON’T want to.

So much for being an African mfowethu. Uzowukhomba umuzi onotshwala ngempela, kuse Africa la, hatshi e Europe!

(Report abuse)

@ amused reader, Consulting Engineer & the others

Thanks for the kind words, guys. Everyone has had some real good stuff on here. As CE says “Eendrag maak mag”.

PS. Let’s see if they let this post through. Ivo calls it “backslapping” and that is a good thing only amongst pc libbers, Ivo says.

(Report abuse)

@Eagle

They wouldn’t do back slapping. That is a thing associated with european males, hence to indulge in such things means you are eurocentric and not gender sensitive.

They will rather praise, but ensure that they praise all races and gender equally to avoid offending. Quite a trick when you supposedly don’t see race. Sort of like a blind man walking trough a forest. Sooner or later a racist tree gets in the way.

(Report abuse)

OK, I am an expert on African languages so, to send us on our way for the week-end, I have attempted the translation of these wise words from Khoza. Thanks for your contribution Khoza.

Below, K stands for Khoza and T for translation.

K: “So much for being an African mfowethu”
T: So much for being an African M***** (Bad Word! Let’s say “gay” instead).

K: “Uzowukhomba”
T; I like Uzo(Greek aniseed liquer), it makes you hamba (leave rather quickly, european version can be shortened to two letters i.e. f and o).

K: “umuzi onotshwala ngempela”
T: I’m not sure of this one but it ends with a bad word i.e. pela, so I think it means; I want to fornicate.

K: “kuse Africa la, hatshi e Europe!”
T: Curse Africa, I prefer Europe

How am I doing, Khoza, my friend?

(Report abuse)

@Khoza

No it wasnt deliberate. For some reason i thought it was spelled with an s.

I can speak to the soccer coach. I speak French. Can do German as well. How do they communicate with the players?

Maybe the politics in soccer is why Bafana-banana is 62 in the world and dropping. Now with quotas they also want to kill the springbokke.

African has no meaning. It is not a race, nor is european. It is also not a nation. They are locations.

I am racially White of South African Nationality and a native speaker of european langauges. I have no link to europe, except as racial relatives, nor could I reside there without applying for immigration, same as you.

You are racially Negroid of one or the other Nguni tribal origin, and of South African Nationality like me. You are a native speaker of some Bantu language.

I don’t know what the issue is and why this is confusing for you.

(Report abuse)

I just had a quick look through the other “thought-leader” bloggers on this M&G website. Looking at their names and photos, as a rough and ready guesstimate I´d say 70% are white, 15% black, and 15% Indian and Coloured. Oh, dammit I forgot, we´re not allowed to use apartheid words like “coloured” anymore are we? OK, then as the ANC has categorised anyone who is not white as “black” (and what can be more racist and divisive than the “one drop of blood” rule?), then surely they should forewith be called “honorary blacks”..? Because, effectively that is how the ANC regards them. Or is there some shame attached to that..?

Anyway, back to the point I was about to make.
70% white when whites are less than 10% of the new (unimproved) SA..? I think someone needs to bring this to the attention of the ANC´s colour police.
Where´s the diversity of colour..?

Secondly, I see that virtually all the whites are either well-known left-wing idealogues - veterans of the “struggle - or, of those that are not - it is clear from their writings that, lest they be suspected as “closet racists”, they feel it is their daily duty to engage in ritualised denunciations of apartheid and white “racist attitudes”, like “whingeing endlessly” about crime, corruption, public-service incompetence, racist legislation like Affirmative Action, and now power-cuts, etc. Either way, their politics leans towards mealy-mouthed acquiescence and thus their writings tend to be boringly predictable.

So where´s the diversity of opinion…?

(Report abuse)

@Eagle & Khoza

Our Zulu friend is going on about Zulu pride. i think what he wanted to say is

Bayasho abadala ngesiZulu bathi ‘bazowukhomba umuzi onotshwala ngempele’. Its a slogan.

I prefer he carries on about Zulu pride than he sells his soul to the anti-racists and becomes as spineless as them. A proud Zulu is better than a liberal white that runs from reference to their own race.

(Report abuse)

@ Eagle on February 28th, 2008 at 5:08 pm

I could contradict just about every point (with the exception of your achievements) in your response to me posting , but I will choose just a few.
>”most of your postings .. have been hopelessly inaccurate.”
One item wrong, and one inaccurate, I’ll admit. If that means “most” to you, well thats your choice.

>”Mbeki’s quiet diplomacy…:”
I have always opposed this policy, not that my opposition counts for anything on this one.

>”tell me what a rampant uncontrolled population explosion….”
Population explosion is a term is used for countries with long term average fertility rates of say 4 to 6 or more children per woman of childbearing age. Fertility rates drop sharply as urbanization increases. Reputable bodies such as the United Nations Department of Economic and Social Affairs, Population Division www.un.org/esa/population do not indicate anything near a population explosion for SA (or Swaziland, Botswana or Zimbabwe for that matter) over the next 40 years. They do indicate a population explosion in several other African countries (e.g. Uganda) and also some Asian countries. In fact, because of HIV/AIDS related deaths, UN ESA predicts nearly zero population growth for SA.

>”You presume to know me…..”
I made no such presumption

>”What have you done besides wagging the finger?”
I have trained/coached/mentored maybe 30 people. Taught maybe a hundred in a company training centre, and at night classes. I have helped semiskiled operators to become artisans. I have to admit, I may never get close to the impressive numbers of people you allegedly helped.

>”you demean the suffering of other people for your own agenda”
I do not demean the suffering of others. I have no secret/hidden agenda. I take up the pen when I see untruths or lies or misrepresentation of the facts on these blogs.

>”How will white people of this age progress if all jobs are reserved for AA candidates?”
All means 100%. I do not work at a co. where 100% jobs are reserved for AA candidates. Some of the new recruits are young white males. A few of the senior and top management promotions go to white males in the 40-50 year age group.
I was referring to those whites who resign out of their own free will. Whites at my present co. who resign generally tend to be aged 30-45, have marketable skills, and they immediately move to higher paying jobs in SA. They typically join SMMEs, but continue to work in the same industry sector, and use their previous experience and expertise.

>”I started working in 1968. Then already most of the large companies were putting Affirmative Action in place……”
It is quite apparent that you were blissfully ignorant of Job Reservation in South Africa prior to 1994. This also calls into question your understanding of other aspects of South African history.

You imply that the Sullivan Principles were in place or being applied in SA in 1968. They came into being in 1977. And then they were applied firstly in US based companies. Non US based companies reformed at their own pace, and were under no pressure whatsoever to conform to the Sullivan Principles. For example, the Sullivan Principles called for integrated canteens. Many large SA companies had segregated canteens until the mid 1980s.
Principle no. 5 of the original 7 principles announced in 1977, ( see www.revleonsullivan.org/principled/principles.htm
) reads: “Increasing the number of blacks and other nonwhites in management and supervisory positions”. However, neither this principle, nor any of the remaining 6 implied favouring black and other nonwhite applicants at the expense of whites. Nowhere is there any mention or implication that “blacks and other nonwhites” should get preference over whites who may be more suited to the job in terms of qualification or experience. No mention of favouring black and other nonwhite females, white females, or the disabled over white males.
Clearly the Sullivan Principles cannot be compared to present day AA.

>” There was no job reservation for whites amongst the medium and large companies … although some jobs were reserved for people with the education and skills, and nothing prevented blacks from obtaining an education….”

Job Reservation – which applied differently to different races (but never adversely affected whites, as job reservation was designed to “protect” their interests) , different trades and different industries, different geographical areas - was alive and kicking at least until the late 1980s. As it never affected you personally, you are perhaps unable to comprehend that it existed.

Until the late 1970s, the Electricity Supply Commission, (later called Eskom) , Atomic Energy Corporation, South African Post Office/Posts and Telecommunications, SA Railways and Harbours, Iscor, and at least certain municipalities including the City of Cape Town, ALL had policies that either excluded engineers and scientists who were not white, or which had restrictions on where they could work. It was then govt. policy (first articulated by HF Verwoed) that nonwhites were not to “compete” with whites, but could work in their own areas. So a black/coloured/Indian scientist for example would be considered for a job at a SAPO facility in a black/coloured/Indian township , he was not eligible to work at head office, or in a R&D lab for example. Blacks could also work in their own homelands.
[ as an aside, in 1975, Iscor was not prepared to employ white female Computer Science graduates, but such discrimination was due to male chauvinism, not due to legislation or govt policy. ]
Up to the early 1970s, coloured or Indian engineering students battled to get vacation work, a prerequisite to being awarded an engineering degree. Bursaries for the above institutions were for whites only, until the late 1970s.
One Indian who dropped out of university and later became an outstanding artisan/technician, told me he dropped out because his friends who started engineering studies at varsity before him could not get vacation jobs, and his family, who were not wealthy by any means, could not afford to make a huge financial sacrifice for him all in vain.
So what did these engineers and scientists of colour do after graduation – many went into teaching (some at high schools) , and some emigrated.
Of course, blacks, coloureds and Indians were employed in all sorts of lower skilled jobs, and in some skilled jobs which fell outside of job reservation categories (e.g. De Beers had some black process operators in Kimberly in 1975.). Semi-skilled jobs in the telecommunications industry in Pretoria (and probably Johannesburg too) were reserved for whites until the late 1960s, I think. One well known co. was unable to obtain suitable or sufficient white women for its telecommunications factory, so it ILLEGALY recruited coloured women, who were chosen purely on the basis of their surnames – eligible if they had a surname commonly used by whites!). When some bigwig like the Postmaster General visited the factory, the coloured women were ushered out of sight immediately prior to the visit, so he would not know that the govt was being duped by this co.
In Pretoria, the first black apprentices in the private telecoms industry were recruited around 1979/80.

Job reservation applied differently in trades, compared to managerial jobs or jobs requiring a degree. In the Western Cape, coloureds were accepted in apprenticeship schemes, but not blacks, as the Western Cape was a Coloured Labour Preferential area. Blacks could only get menial jobs outside of black townships . Up till the end of the 1970s, one could find blacks with science degrees employed in menial jobs like petrol pump attendants in the Western Cape.
One final aspect of racial discrimination . At some stage, presumably during the late 1950s but possibly during earlier times, a policy got implemented which forbade blacks (but not coloureds or Indians) from studying engineering at a South African university. This policy was only finally dropped during the mid 1970s. Blacks who insisted they wanted to study engineering were graciously granted a concession by the Nat government: they could leave South Africa forever, on a so called “one way exit permit” and then go and study where they pleased. I knew one black guy who was highly respected in the HR field, who had studied law in SA. His first choice, he said, was mechanical engineering, and he won a scholarship in 1974 to study at Carnegie Mellon in the USA, but he could not bring himself to leave SA forever, so he had to forgo that opportunity.
The policy did not suddenly fall away though. It was first amended so blacks could study engineering after having FIRST completed a BSc degree at a black university. So it would take blacks 6-7 years to get a degree that other races could complete in 4 years. After a few years of this relaxed policy, the policy was scrapped entirely.
Some blacks did of course go the exit permit route., Wellington Mlungisi Tshazibane was an Oxford trained Chemical engineer (with a Masters degree, if the newspaper report at the time was correct). He worked in Lesotho, and returned during a particularly dark era of SA. He was detained at the notorius John Voster Square in Dec 1976, and shortly after being detained, he was dead. “suicide by hanging” was the official cause of his death, according the authorities.. and is reported as such in the TRC Report. The authorities allege he was involved in sabotage, but many an innocent person was detained during those days.

Now, you can call of the above “lies of the past”, but they are facts.
Maybe this stuff is “really tiresome” for you, but perhaps others find your postings tiresome too.

Call me an oldfart if it makes you happy. All over the world over the ages, untold numbers of people have been tortured or killed for telling the truth. If I merely get called names, well, it won’t bother me in the least. My mom told me when I was very little not to get upset if people call me names, and I never forgot that good advice!

(Report abuse)

@Invinoveritas

Perhaps the reason the TLs are so so heavily infested with white liberals is that liberals are even more prone to ‘racist’ bashing than are Blacks.

Their whole reason for being was anti-apartheid. Without Apartheid they must now find something else white to bash. That is their raison d’etre. What is easier to bash than us whites who speak our minds? Bash these whites and Blacks will applaud you and fence sitting whites will keep silent for fear of being considered ‘racist’. It is a new form of oppression and intimidation.

If they bash anything Black they run the risk of being labelled ‘racist’. By bashing ‘racists’ they hope to gain favour with the new elite, but I think Blacks are far too clever to fall for this and see through the white liberal self-serving agenda.

I love it when Blacks see through their hypocrisy and bash white liberals.

If liberals want to bash anything in the government that can ever be construed as Black bashing, they make sure they distance themselves from the race component, and give a double dose of white and previous regime bashing just for good measure.

I wonder if they ever feel a twinge of conscience. White National Servicemen, and older campers with families kept them safe and died while they were in the ECC ducking their service.

Together with whites, there were many Black and Coloured servicemen who fought along side their white comrades. This the liberals ignore, as it does not fit their agenda of the ‘evils’ of the past regime. They ignore that we never had a problem getting along with Blacks and white and black fought together against the terror threat.

To a large extent they foment the problems. Was there ever a riot with no media present? No. The presence of the media was an instigator for a riot. The left wanted to gain publicity. This should also be on their conscience, if they have one.

The diversity of opinion…? if we ever get too ‘diverse’, they delete our posts, so we try and keep them moderate. Diversity is allowed as long as it is not too pro-white and doesnt upset liberals.

(Report abuse)

@ Consulting Engineer.

Good one.

The other problem is that it is very difficult to find one face to face as they then cannot hide behind anonymity when uttering their ignorant and insulting drivel, as they do on here.

@ oldf***. Talking about pc Liberals, I will respond to you shortly. Suffice it to say, once again, that you would save a lot of time if you would just admit your errors and let things rest before shooting off so defensively and looking foolish again.

(Report abuse)

@consulting engineer, who said..
If liberals want to bash anything in the government that can ever be construed as Black bashing, they make sure they distance themselves from the race component, and give a double dose of white and previous regime bashing just for good measure.

thats it…thats precisely what they do..!
very well put CE..!

btw - I mentioned the ANC´s “colour police” but I think a much more appropriate name is
PIG-MENTATION POLICE..!

(Report abuse)

@Invinoveritas

Keep it up and the famous gang of four racists will be a gang of five! ha ha! Welkom broer.You don’t have to join.They label you. To win a debate with a liberal makes you a racist and you will also be a filty racist crawling out of some crevice.

Pretty soon just thinking for yourself will be racist.
Pig-mention ha ha! funny.

(Report abuse)

@ IVOR

First if what you say it true about the people’s identity, and that you have traced them, then I am afraid to say that it looks like you could be spending the next few years behind bars.

You see the only way you could link people to three differant sites is through either
A ) Comparing their IP addresses, which would mean that you would either have to have admin status, on those sites or that you hacked those sites.
or
B ) You have hacked the person’s private computor.

Hacking is a criminal offense.

Of course there is another way you could have done it leagly,

Namely you are in fact an administrator on those sites.

So please tell me which is it are you

A ) Infact a WN trying to fool everyone
or
B ) A self confessed criminal?

PS ROAR??????????
There is no such site.

(Report abuse)

There is, of course, a third explanation, namely that one of the people in question admitted, in a public post to this website, to membership of, ties with, or use of, the groups I cited. That this person has not denied my interpretation (of “SF” in particular) suggests my powers of speculative deduction have served me well.

(Report abuse)

Your wish for white ’supremacy’ to ‘begone’ is a faint hope. What you call ’supremacy’ is actually White Nationalism; a desire by whites to band together to protect themselves and their culture from the assimilation that engulfs them, and by peaceful means.

It is A desire to live in peace and with our european values. It has nothing to do with hate. It is what is protected in the constitution as Freedom of Association.

It is the concept of multicult, liberalism and its byproducts, and the blending of races that is the biggest threat to the demographics of whites, not any other race itself. It is those that tell us to ignore race that threaten us most. Most such people happen to be white.

Take away the language of instruction, blow up voortrekker historical monuments, change names, keep on mudering whites, force mixed accomodation where neither wants it and you fuel its growth. Survival of yourself, family and culture is a basic instinct.

Hate seems to be what liberals specialise in: hate of ‘racists’, hate of conservative values, hate of Apartheid, hate of everyone who doesnt agree with them, hate of reference to race, hate of hate itself.

While liberals in SA wish to duck the race issue and follow the ostrich approach, racial issues and the Right are making strides in Europe and are at the core of political issues. It is the natural outcome of forced integration and refusing to allow race discussion. As a result the issues build up.

After many years, Switzerland has a right wing government. People are fed up with the problems of multicult:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9903EFDC173CF932A25751C1A9659C8B63&fta=y

The right wing is the 3rd largest party in Norway, once one of the most liberal of all nations, and is
growing

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article2264811.ece

In France the extreme right wing gets 15-20% of the vote and is growing. The second-place finish of Jean-Marie Le Pen is all the more stunning given that the Right-wing vote was split so many ways:

http://www.adl.org/international/LePen-1-introduction.asp

Even in Germany, the growth of the right is fueling a debate whether to ban or not to ban:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,339604,00.html

Although still small, the extreme right wing in the UK, is growing rapidly. Although having no seats in national parliment as yet, they have 48 councillors in local government

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party

Europe’s rising Right-wing tide is sweeping the core countries of the European Union. It threatens Germany’s Social Democrats and threatening France’s socialist government.

Over the last two years, Austria, Italy, Denmark, Portugal, and Norway have all turned against the centre-Left consensus that had such a lock on Europe during the 1990s.

Even Holland, the model of easy-going tolerance, has fallen under the spell of Pim Fortuyn. Just across the border, the Flemish Vlaams Blok far-Right movement is now the biggest party in Antwerp, much to the horror of Belgium’s press and the political establishment.

And who can forget the success of Jorg Haider of Austria’s far-Right Freedom Party.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/04/22/wpen222.xml

Even formerly socialist eastern europe are seeing the need for an alternative to the Simunye-we are one model:

http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=7243

Every where in the world where liberalism has tried to force integration it is failing and has only fueled discontent and a growth of the right. Attempts to repress it only fuels it growth.Unless the cause of discontent is addressed it will only grow.

The discontent cannot be wished away by ‘begone’

Now do you want to ignore it and suppress it and face it in uglier form later, like in europe, or do you want to acknowledge it is a real concern?

(Report abuse)

@ Ivo

I Denied your explanation before and suggested you examine the groups you slander before indulging in name calling.

I posted this:

Here is what we are about from an indepenent non-racial source, a source that monitors all forums and groups:

http://www.big-boards.com/highlight/339/

Stormfront is a resource for white men and women fighting to preserve their white western culture, ideals and freedom of speech and association, a forum for planning strategies and forming political and social groups to ensure achieving this community’s goals.

I challenged you to find one place on there where Don Black or David Duke advocate white supremacy.

Your speculation is nothing but a liberal knee jerk reaction to a movement you dont understand or dont agree with.

The group may contain some nazis, some skinheads and even some supremacists. But far more dominant are the are the average men and women with jobs families careers etc. There are doctors, lawyers, teachers, professors, farmers, engineers etc. They probably vote conservative but it looks like some are voting Obama. So how does that gel with your ’supremacy’ tag?

Tell me, if a Black supremacist joins the ANC does it make it a Black supremacist party?

If a gay joins the DA, is the DA a gay party?

That is the extent of your speculation and logic.

(Report abuse)

And still you miss the point.

I haven’t got a problem with racism. If you read this piece, I pointed out that I acknowledge your right to freedom of speech, and freedom of association. And if you check my latest column in Maverick, I advocate making hate speech legal, because heaven knows people will always find someone to hate, and life is boring if Sharks and Arsenal fans are the only people you can properly sledge.

You want to be racist, be my guest. Actually, no. The point is, be someone else’s guest. Because as much as you have a right to your White Pride and Nationalism and burning crosses, I have a right not to listen, not to associate with you, and to dismiss your angry diatribes as worthwhile contributions to a rational debate.

Because I do have a problem when you flood my comments section in your efforts to turn every debate about every issue into an unhinged rants about how superior the whites are/were, and how the problem is blacks can’t run a country, and how everything I’ve written only goes to prove how right your racism is.

And just to prove how hysterical you lot have really become, how useless your contributions are to a rational debate, it is worth pointing out that if I’m a pinko-liberal in your eyes, you’d better file Winston Churchill, Margaret Thatcher, George W Bush, Ronald Reagan and William F Buckley under “leftwing ideologues” too.

Now, begone. Go exercise your right to free speech somewhere else. Try exercising your right of dissociation for a change.

(Report abuse)

@ oldf***,

I am now sure that you are communist troll. Your postings are all about nitpicking and twisting facts into misinformation e.g.

Old f:>”tell me what a rampant uncontrolled population explosion….”

Eagle: actually, my quote was:
“a rampant uncontrolled population explosion in the midst of endemic poverty.”
Eagle: Your prattle about definitions and predictions does not alter the fact that the black population increased by more than 40 million over the past 50 years with no supporting increase in income generation, whereas the white population increased by 3 million. Unemployed, impoverished people have 4,5,6, children with no prospect of supporting them. Anyone with a brain can see that this is one of the primary causes of poverty amongst black people.

Old f: > Eagle says: “What have you done besides wagging the finger?”
Old f: “I have trained/coached/mentored maybe 30 people. It is incumbent upon all of us, to do what we can to help improve the country.”
Eagle: I am not talking about the job you are being paid to do. I am talking about putting your hand in your pocket and taking out your own money. Have you got any black people living in your house? Surely that is the least you can do.
Old f: Eagle says: >”you demean the suffering of other people for your own agenda”
Old f: “I do not demean the suffering of others.”
“AA is a new phenomenon in the workplace. It does result in some whites leaving, so that they can progress.”
Eagle: Ignoring the fact that companies such as ESKOM, Telkom, Spoornet, the Government services, etc. etc. has over the past 5 to 10 years laid of tens of thousands of white people as a result of AA, is demeaning their suffering. These are people who cannot find work elsewhere due to AA and due to the fact that they are generally “too old” for the job market. They are generally people who have serious financial commitments. How are they to meet these financial commitments without a job?
Old f: “Whites at my present co. who resign generally tend to be aged 30-45, have marketable skills, and they immediately move to higher paying jobs in SA.”
Eagle: You are seriously delusional, oldfart. Most of the companies which I mentioned above have a policy of demoting the person in the job especially managers, to “caretaker” of their own positions. The job is then advertised internally and the selection criteria is; one - race, two - skills and education, three - length of service. Therefore white people will only find jobs if there are no black applicants for the jobs and that, of course happens very seldom, as black people know that they will get a job based on their skin colour alone, no experience necessary. Why do you think that companies such as Eskom, Telkom, the Government, are in the trouble that they are in.
Old f: “They typically join SMMEs”
Eagle: So you are saying the same as I am. Due to AA they have no choice but to start their own businesses where typically, they cannot get lucrative contracts due to legislation such as BEE and the Preferential Procurement Act and struggle to make it due to an SME tax burden which currently exceeds 110%.
Old f: “You imply that the Sullivan Principles were in place or being applied in SA in 1968.”
Eagle: You know where you can stick your liberal habit of twisting words. I said nothing of the sort. Read my posting again. Leon Sullivan joined the board of General Motors in 1971 and he then started to apply pressure on SA companies to abolish “Apartheid”. He was just another in a long line of Liberals who did not care the harm that they were inflicting on the country, they just wanted their own way.
Old f: “They came into being in 1977″
Eagle: I worked at General Motors from 1968 to 1974 and one of my fist jobs was to start implementing the principles which was a combination of our own AA systems and the Sullivan Principles in draft form. The formalized version of the Sullivan Principles was only officially issued in 1977 but by that time we were in the process of complying with most of them already. You conveniently forget that many of the large companies were owned by the Americans, the British, etc. etc. Most of the GM top brass was in fact American and they did not wait for the government but set their own policies internally. That is why it is mentioned in your own extract that “General Motors was the largest employer of blacks in South Africa at that time”
Old f: Principle no. 5 of the original 7 principles announced in 1977 reads: “Increasing the number of blacks and other nonwhites in management and supervisory positions”. “However, neither this principle, nor any of the remaining 6 implied favouring black and other nonwhite applicants at the expense of whites.”
Eagle: You conveniently omit principal No 2 which states:
2. Equal and fair employment practices for all employees

Eagle: You are now seriously staring to waste my time. If you cannot see that these principles favour black applicants over whites then you have other comprehension and psychological problems which I can do nothing about.
The rest of your writing is unsubstantiated, inaccurate nitpicking drivel such as the “points” above and I am not going to waste my time with it any further except to say:
• You have agreed that “job reservation” fell away during the mid 1970’s i.e. 30-35 years ago. Given that the average person would have to have been at an age of approximately 30 years old to be considered for these positions you are in fact saying that only people older than 60 years old today were “disadvantaged” through “job reservation”. Why then is management incompetence such a big problem?
• The blacks in South Africa went to war with the whites during the late 1800s, they were defeated and the country then belonged to the white race to do with what they wanted. In addition the black race was an illiterate, underdeveloped people when the first settlers landed here and when the Nationalist party came into power.
• Instead of decimating the black race, whites chose to co-exist with them and to skill, educate and develop them. Standards for black education were lowered as it became clear that blacks were not on the same entry level education as whites but the matric certificate for blacks and whites had the same value. Black universities were built in the homelands, some of amongst the best in the country such as the medical university in Bophuthatswana. Universities such as Fort Hare in the Former Ciskei were densely populated with black students already in the 1970s.
• Blacks responded to these efforts to assist them by rioting and burning down their schools and thereafter blaming whites for “depriving them of education”.
• It was the right of the Nationalist party to put into place a political system of their own choice. For the benefit of all they put into place the Policy of Separate development i.e. “Apartheid”. To this end some of the best land in SA was set aside for black development and self-rule.
• Blacks scuttled these efforts through rioting, terrorist activities and the neck lacing and bombing of civilians.
• Despite all the criticism and opportunism on behalf of the ANC the nationalist government had a responsibility only to their voters. Blame placing such as “injustices of the past” has never been tested in a court of law.
• Nor the 55 millions blacks here today or their forefathers had done anything to take responsibility for themselves and educate and develop their own people despite the efforts of the white man and the billions of Rands of white money spent towards this end.
For the rest read my other posts, I am tired of repeating myself to a communist troll.

(Report abuse)

@ivo
If you “haven´t got a problem with racism”, then why did you open this discussion with slanderous remarks bordering on hysteria or paranoia..?

It makes me very angry that you, and others like you with access to the media, can get away with this sort of thing - “Crawling out of filthy crevices” - as if we are cockroaches which must be squashed in order to cleanse the country of some pestilence.

Do you call us those names in order to ingratiate yourself with your black bosses..? I dont believe you would dare use such terminology against anyone in the government, yet it is they not us who are the real racists.

As CE remarked above, if you say anything which can be construed as anti-ANC, you “balance” your criticism with a double-dose of anti-white slander. This is intellectual cowardice.

Anyway, if you now regret making those remarks you should have the courage to admit it.

And before you start vilyfying “racism” and “racists” please learn the difference between Benign and Malign forms of racism. No prizes for guessing which form the ANC practices.
Lets open a debate on that topic. Until then I think you DO have “a problem with racists”

(Report abuse)

@Ivo

You maliciously keep misinterpreting what we say and someone keeps deleting my replies.

White Nationalism is not White supremacy. The preservation of the White race, our lands and culture is our main objective -not hate. We have a right to defend ourselves from the multicultural elite whose agendas are destroying our nations, and our history. We have a right to defend ourselves from others who openly threaten us! We have a right to voice our concerns. Are you the owner of the M&G to deny us this right?

(Report abuse)

Burdensome racial preference schemes in hiring, race-normed employment tests, racial preference schemes in university admissions, racial preference schemes in government contracting and small business loans. Beyond quotas there is the denial of rights of free speech and of due process to Whites who are critical of these governmental policies. We have special punishments for vandalism and assaults committed by Whites if the perpetrators have a history of anti-egalitarian thought. In addition, Whites pay a proportion of the costs of the welfare state that is disproportionate to what they receive in benefits.

But the most exploitative aspect of the situation is that neither the racial quotas, the business preferences, the loss of freedom of speech, nor the disproportionate contributions to the welfare state have managed to sate the appetites of non-whites.

The more Whites sacrifice, the more non-whites demand. Many Whites are beginning to believe that no amount of tribute, other than mass suicide, would satisfy the non-white demands.

If our presence stirs up that much hatred in the hearts of non- whites, then what sensible course of action is left?

(Report abuse)

@Invino

What can I say after that? But you stand up for your beliefs and your matjies like a true brother.

I dont know if you are a man or woman, but you are very much your own man, think for yourself and are always fair. That is a huge compliment.

Go well my friend.

(Report abuse)

@Ivo

There are two issues here:

• Have you heard of the “cause and effect” syndrome? The effects which you are getting on here have been caused by your white bashing and the socialist, leftist comments from you and some of your readers on here. Do you think that we are just going to lie down and take it? We have been taking it for 14 years from all quarters, including the government. Enough is enough.
• Secondly, we are probably giving you and your lefty, socialist readers too much credibility on here as you lot are actually way out of line. Accusations of racism and white supremacy are very serious allegations and, if they are made face to face, you will probably have to prove them or face legal action. Despite the many calls for proof by myself and others on here, NOT ONE person has been able to supply proof to substantiate these allegations. Last year I took to court for ‘crimen injuria’ a black person who alleged that I was a racist. Unfortunately he made the mistake of putting it in writing. He got the fright of his life and the matter was settled.

So please, if it is getting too hot for you then get out of the kitchen. But don’t try to use this log to promote a leftist agenda which will plunge this country further into crises and then expect those blessed with brains, to keep quiet.

(Report abuse)

@InVinoVeritas: If you have read much of my commentary, I almost never address race, and this time I did so in isolation. I don’t balance anti-government arguments with a swipe at white racists, though I do sometimes balance them with swipes at black racists. I took a swipe at white racists because they were getting up my nose with their cookie-cutter responses to any and all issues. This post was an attempt to dismiss one-size-fits-all racist whining so we can get back to the issues at hand.

@Eagle: Dude, I’m as rightwing as they come. I’m a hard-core free-marketeer who believes government has little or no justifiable purpose other than providing common defence, protecting private property rights and enforcing contract law. And even those can be outsourced. That you see me as leftwing, socialist or an apologist for government merely betrays the depth of your racist paranoia.

(Report abuse)

@Ivo

Interesting concept of you being right wing. Here is a definition I found:

the ideologies and philosophies of right-wing political parties have included elements of conservatism, Christian democracy, liberalism, libertarianism, and nationalism; and for extreme-right parties racism and fascism.

However, it is generally used to refer to the segments of the political spectrum often associated with any of several strains of Conservatism, Traditionalism, Monarchism, Right-libertarianism, Royalism, Corporatism, the Religious Right, Nationalism, Militarism, Producerism, Nativism, or simply Reactionism for the sake of being the opposite of left-wing politics.

For those on the extreme right, you are still to the left ha ha!

By the way, I saw your blog is nominated as one of the best individual blogs for 2008. Congratulations.

(Report abuse)

Consulting Engineer
I posted a comment in which I advised Mr Vegter
to put his PC away, but he is no vegter and afraid
to post my comment.Shame!

(Report abuse)

@cool down: Cool down. I do not (and cannot) vet comments on ThoughtLeader. Nor am I informed when comments are canned. So your attacks on my name and character are misplaced.

However, I do think the moderators are perfectly capable of judging whether a comment is puerile, ad hominem, offensive or simply without merit. This post has attracted 180 comments, many of which were excellent examples of the gratuitous racism I attacked in the first place, so yours must have been a particularly egregious example. Forgive me for not feeling guilty, or upset that it got rejected. As I said, as far as I’m concerned, the moderators are welcome to use the delete button more often, if that improves the quality of debate on ThoughtLeader.

Your constitutional freedom of speech binds the government. It doesn’t mean that all your ejaculations are of equal value, or that everyone within earshot must subject themselves to your speech lest they infringe on your rights.

@Consulting Engineer: Thanks. And yes, I’m sure I am to the left of, say, the Klan. But that hardly makes me a socialist. In fact, that directly contradicts the principle that is at the core of my political and economic thinking: individual liberty.

(Report abuse)

So Mr Vegter
Who is prtecting you?

(Report abuse)

Who protects me from what?

I think I just told you that “I do not (and cannot) vet comments on ThoughtLeader. Nor am I informed when comments are canned.”

So I don’t know that I am “protected”, let alone by whom. The Mail & Guardian Online has several editors which it employs for the purpose of editing posts and vetting comments. I know only two or three of them, myself. Unlike them, I don’t work for the Mail & Guardian.

(Report abuse)

Correction: I just discovered that ThoughtLeader bloggers can, in fact, moderate comments on their own post, should they choose to do so. I have never exercised this power I never knew I had. But be warned! In future, I can censor you! I can abridge your constitutional rights! I can oppress you! I’m armed and dangerous! I have a keyboard, and I’m not afraid to use it!

(Report abuse)

Wow!

(Report abuse)

Consulting Engineer

My army training was not in vain. I knew the
of the ‘enemies’weoponary before he even
was aware of them.Good for him this is PC-warfare
and not the real thing.

If you don’t hear of me again,know that these
liberals ‘are a clear and present danger’ to
whom the sale of advanced It-knowledge should
be declared illegal!!

(Report abuse)

@ Ivo

The old term “Rebel without a cause” comes to mind. You have switched viewpoints so many times that not many of us know where you stand on anything. However, the one thing that has been consistent throughout your postings is your white bashing and the fact that you sidestep every comment or question that justify the points of view of the white realists on here.

As per my first post, some 180 posts earlier, which you still have not answered; please post the comments from myself and others which justify your labels of “racists” and “crawling out of crevices”, etc. ?

(Report abuse)

@Ivo

You havent said thank you. This thread has greatly boosted your popularity. It looks like the largest one on the whole site!

We will hit the 200 mark soon.

Individual liberty is a great thing. But I keep bumping my head against obstruction of liberty. Our schools are decaying and multicult is forced on us. Some may want it but some don’t. Those that don’t have it rammed down their throat. Our children cannot stay in hostels without being subjected to integration.

We can’t even purchase firearms anymore without red tape to keep them out of citizens hands and ensure only criminals are armed, we cant tender unless our skin is not white etc etc. Even if I want to employ someone the hand of government is in place to make sure those we employ are not white.

And we are the ones that see race?

(Report abuse)

Actually, this isn’t my most popular post, CE. But it does have the most comments. And I did thank you, but for something else. You do raise valid points, but usually through the lens of identity politics. Since that introduces a substantial element of irrationality and subjectivity (at best) I prefer not to respond objectively to them. And making that point was the purpose of this little exercise in exorcising racism.

Eagle, I did answer you. I pointed out that I didn’t name you in my original post, but you’re welcome to act all paranoid about it. If the white hood fits, wear it.

Cool down, get a sense of humour. I promise I won’t censor you, k?

(Report abuse)

@ Ivo,

Still hopping, skipping and jumping around, I see. You are obviously not going to justify your comments under any circumstances, be it to any of us dirty supremacist racists. I do enjoy watching you lefties squirm when you speak without thinking and then have to dodge the fallout of your comments.

Being the owner of an Industrial Engineering business and operating in a consulting environment every day where one mistake could cost millions, I just wonder how you, who also seem to have a consulting aspect to your job, would view a consultant who uses a shotgun approach without having the facts but who will not stand behind any of his statements, under any circumstances?

It would be interesting to get your comment on this question.

(Report abuse)

@ Ivo,

In response to your comment:

“Eagle, I pointed out that I didn’t name you in my original post, but you’re welcome to act all paranoid about it. If the white hood fits, wear it.”

Perhaps this quote from your original post might help:

Ivo says:
“Perhaps EAGLE, who asked me for facts in dispute of his RACIST ANALYSIS, could point out some genetic contamination in Russian communists of which I’m unaware. Perhaps he’d care to explain why your average white European welfare-statist, socialist or unionist falls for the same economic fallacies as your average black African welfare-statist, socialist or unionist. Or why the term “national socialism” derives from the economic policy of the ultimate, pure-as-the-driven-snow Aryan supremacy group of them all.”

My question is Ivo, how does the above large multi-line paragraph qualify in NOT naming me? Maybe my white hood is obscuring my vision but from where I stand, it looks like you are very definately naming me.

(Report abuse)

Ivo
I have a sense of humour,perhaps not your sense
of humour,because I dont start my comments
by stating that liberals crawl out of crevices and
if I had stooped that low I would have said
they ‘crawled out clean crevices’.

My problem with you is that you like to dish it out
and soon complain that those who do not share
your apparent superior insight,you complain that
they flood your blog.

Now tell me Sir what exactly is your claim to fame
that allows you to state that those who do not
agree with you ‘crawl from filthy crevices’.

(Report abuse)

This complaint of flooding blogs is like what is happening here. The liberals cannot counter facts so quickly run off after launching a few names and insults. So it appears like the ‘racists’ chase everyone off. Better to run when you cant counter.

They make the claim they cant stand being around racists. In reality they cannot refute the racists. How many ‘non racists’ have claimed on this thread alone that our facts are always correct and we are often right and make better logical arguements, even though they dont like the conclusions? We also dont get emotional and make rants like ‘filthy crevices’ etc.

Only very few, like oldfox, try to counter with facts without hysteria. But even oldfox seems to have taken a turn to the right these days.

So as long as we see BS being paraded as intellect, pussy footing around issues where race is important for fear of the ‘racist’ tag we will continue to speak until deleted.

Apartheid is not to blame as nations that never had it are still failures. Why is the crime rate and welfare rate of ‘african-americans’ so high?

In German it would be Ohne Wittmanne laeuft nichts mehr.

(Report abuse)

Ah, yes, sorry Eagle. I named you not as one of the four, but only to respond to your request for answers in your comment on Alison’s post.

Like cool down, however, you seem to take my comments suspiciously personally, so I think it’s safe to assume that you’re cut from the same cloth.

And no, cool down, my comments weren’t aimed at those who don’t agree with me. My comments were aimed at racists of the Stormfront.org variety. Perhaps I’m wrong. Perhaps God is a White Nationalist, and racism is morally superior to my own craven left-liberal mud-blood philosophy. But in my opinion, SF constitutes a filthy crevice, and I don’t particularly want to listen to the racist rants that crawl out of it every time I’m critical of the ANC.

No wonder the ANC thinks anyone who criticises it is just a racist bigot. They way you lot carry on, they appear justified in using that as a blanket shield against any and all attacks.

Now if you’ll excuse me, this has gone on long enough. I have a shady deal involving a black man, a corrupt front company, a BEE deal and the ANC to write about. And you’ll have to forgive me for doing so without implying that blacks can’t run countries or companies, but limiting myself to elementary political philosophy and economic theory.

(Report abuse)

@Ivo and Eagle

Regarding blaming russian communism on the russian people consider this:

Karl Marx (born Levi) and another Jew, Friedreich Engels, issued “The Communist Manifesto” in 1848 in London. Marx was descended from a long line of famous Rabbis who were so-called “Talmudic scholars.”

Vladimir Lenin was of Jewish Ancestry as were approximately 95% of the Communists in both the Bolshevik and Menshevik Parties.

LENIN said (From an article in Northern Pravda, October-December 1913) about the communist party, ” the percentage of Jews in democratic and proletarian movements is everywhere higher than the percentage of Jews in the general population.

In the first government of Communist Russia there were only 13 ethnic Russian Commissars and more than 300 Jewish Commissars out of a total of 384 Commissars. The billionaire New York Jew Jacob Schiff was the revolution’s chief financier. Jews were 1.7% of the population of Russia. Of the 6 members of Lenin’s first Politburo, three were Jews, Trotsky, Kamenev and Zinoviev, top five leaders were Jews.”

The Jewish Telegraph Agency of May 14, 1997, said the Jews “…played key roles in ushering Communist rule into Hungary. In fact, during the brutal oppression of the early 1950s, the regime’s top 5 leaders were Jews.

The Kibbutz communes in Israel shows the only people in the world which have voluntarily adopted communal living and is run by marxists. They operate many farms and factories. It is of interest that they are always millions in debt and must be bailed out constantly with U.S. Foreign Aid money.

Regarding the economic policies of the national socialists:

In 1933, Germany was the European country with the bleakest future; possibly no country in the world had worse prospects. Germany was technically bankrupt with no likelihood of rehabilitation. The reasons for this were many and varied:

Massive unemployment
Industrial stagnation
Crippling strike actions by unions
Private investment had fallen to one sixth
Collapse in agricultural prices
Escalating numbers of bankrupt companies
Total earnings had fallen by half
90% of the German people were in dire straits
The Versailles treaty confiscated the richest mineral land and imposed escalating debt repayments that would not be lifted for fifty years.
Communists, funded by the Soviet Union, were taking advantage of the political turmoil with frequent strike action and violent abortive coups.

By the end of NS’s first year in office unemployment had fallen from 6,000,000 to 3,374,000. An unprecedented 2,627,000 jobs had been created at a time when the rest of the world was in deep eceonomic recession.

In 1932, before National Socialism acquired power, the German national income amounted to 45.2 milliard Reichsmarks…. and in 1937 reached the round figure of 68 milliard Reichsmarks. In contrast to this increase in income the general cost of living index remained practically unchanged. In other words, while the national income increased by nearly 50% the increase in the general cost of living rose by only 4%.”

Five years of National Socialist industrial and economic activity show that:

Paper manufacture increased by 50%
The manufacture of diesel oil increased by 66%
The production of coal increased by 68%
The production of oil fuel increased by 80%
The production of mineral oil increased by 90%
The production of artificial silk increased by 100%
The production of Kerosene has increased by 110%
The production of steel has increased by 167%
The production of lubricating oil increased by 190%

(Report abuse)

Hi man
and here I was rooting for you to reach 200 and
not out. If SF affronts you,dont read it.
Perhaps to will find time to to post your
elementary political philosophy and economic
theory.

Sorry that your ‘Spike’ got a bit blunted
against our ‘racists shields’ and likewise
don’t take it personally.

(Report abuse)

There is an interesting video and article that documents the history of Political Correctness, except for one detail, they are both too politically correct to mention the tribal affiliation of nearly all the perpetrators of this modern day scourge.

You can find it on www.davidduke.com

with all the affilliations and histories included.

Its called The Historical Roots of “Political Correctness” By Raymond V. Raehn

PC seeks to impose a uniformity of thought and behavior on all and is therefore totalitarian in nature.

Critical Theory on which PC is based is essentially destructive criticism of the main elements of Western culture, including Christianity, capitalism, authority, the family, patriarchy, hierarchy, morality, tradition, sexual restraint, loyalty, patriotism, nationalism, heredity, ethnocentrism, convention and conservatism.

Terms like white supremacist, nazi, racist etc are used to suggest that the presence in a society of Christianity, capitalism and the patriarchal-authoritarian family created a character prone to racial prejudice and German fascism.

Traditional beliefs and the existing social structure have to be destroyed and then replaced.

As a grand scheme it is intended to deny the intrinsic worth of white, heterosexual males by the use of guilt in order to upset the social order.

When addressing the general public, advocates of Political Correctness – or cultural Marxism, to give it its true name – present their beliefs attractively. It’s all just a matter of being “sensitive” to other people, they say. They use words such as “tolerance” and “diversity,” asking, “Why can’t we all just get along?”

The reality is different. Political Correctness is not at all about “being nice,” . Political Correctness is Marxism, with all that implies: loss of freedom of expression, thought control, inversion of the traditional social order and, ultimately, a totalitarian state.

(Report abuse)

The point is simple. We’re never going to agree on this, so I don’t want every discussion to degenerate into an an argument about race. Look at this thread: three-weeks, 200 comments, and still there’s no conclusion. I don’t want such arguments, which merely inflame emotions, and hinder rational discussion, cluttering up every discussion in which I’m involved.

I think you’re wrong, that you variously misrepresent history, mistate cause and effect, mistake correlation with causation, and misunderstand human nature. But more importantly, I don’t care.

That’s not a concession, nor a capitulation, nor a demand for political correctness.

Even if I did think my race, nationality or gender were superior to those of anyone else, such claims would not convince anyone with half a brain of the points I have to make. So I wouldn’t stoop to doing so. And I’m not interested in the arguments of those who do.

(Report abuse)

Good
That clears the air,but don’t feel affronted
that we feel exactly the same over your submissions
and don’t care either after all a coin has two sides and not one, but you’ll have to sgree
that you could not state your view if ours did
not excist and nor could we.

(Report abuse)

[…] recently declared unconstitutional by the Human Rights Commission. Since the story broke days after my rant about white racists exploded into a raging inferno, I had been toying with the idea of using the FBJ issue to make a […]

(Report abuse)

[…] the story broke days after my rant about white racists exploded into a raging inferno, I had been toying with the idea of using the FBJ issue to make a […]

(Report abuse)