I don’t like giving up, but I’ve been tempted to concede to those, like Alison Tilley, who say it’s better not to criticise the government, because all it does is bring the racists out of the woodwork. I’ve been tempted to share the despair of some readers who find the stink of this small band of bigots hard to take.
But Alison’s post achieved more than I think she bargained for. It not only brought the racists out of the woodwork, but exposed them for who they really are.
Finally, we know the filthy crevices from which they launch their forays. Now we know the pseudonyms by which they go, which organisations they belong to, and what they believe in. Now we know the white supremacists who hang out here on Thought Leader.
Every time someone raises a problem, offers a solution or directs a criticism at the government, there they are. On my previous post, there they were, whining about race and about being censored.
Never mind that failing to stay on topic is grounds enough to “censor” them. The posts that attract them are seldom, if ever, about race, but about economic policy, or technical issues, or perhaps corruption. Never mind that these are exactly the racists I said would claim vindication because of the electricity crisis.
By “this lot”, I mean Consulting Engineer, and a number of others. I have a fair idea who three of the “4 of us” are to whom Consulting Engineer refers, but since I can’t isolate a fourth — there are a few possibilities — I’ve edited this post to remove names. They’re certainly not the only four who sound like peas in a pod.
Would you guys give it up, please? It is incredibly tiresome when every second article degenerates into you lot banging on about race and racism. Worse, you give the rest of us whities a bad rep. You’re the reason Nelson Mandela is a considered a saint.
Sandile Memela may have been wrong when he said I was a racist. But so are you. Just because you’ve found someone who opposes the ANC’s economic thinking, its corruption and its preference for loyalty over competence — and is able to express those criticisms in passable English — doesn’t mean you’ve found someone who supports your ideals. Let me be clear: I detest them.
I have pointed out before that I do not believe that blacks cannot run a government; I believe national socialists (among others) cannot run a government. I do not believe the Nats were any better; they were at least as short-sighted in their economic thinking, they were at least as corrupt and were at least as tolerant of incompetence among those loyal to their cause. Not to mention they were considerably worse on other counts, such as respect for liberty and basic human rights.
Socialism and communism, or incompetence and corruption, have nothing to do with race. Whites have been just as badly seduced by the futile ideal of a state-run workers’ paradise, or the prospect of power and loot. Perhaps Eagle, who asked me for facts in dispute of his racist analysis, could point out some genetic contamination in Russian communists of which I’m unaware. Perhaps he’d care to explain why your average white European welfare-statist, socialist or unionist falls for the same economic fallacies as your average black African welfare-statist, socialist or unionist. Or why the term “national socialism” derives from the economic policy of the ultimate, pure-as-the-driven-snow Aryan supremacy group of them all.
Unlike you lot, I do not think smart economics or honest government is beyond the capacity of black people, or indeed, any people. Unlike you, I cried with joy on April 27 1994 and celebrated liberation with thousands of others on the lawns of the Union Buildings on May 10 1994. I won’t ever forget, or have reason to regret that.
I know you think the Nats were vastly superior to the present black government, and that FW de Klerk surrendered the white race’s birthright. I know you’re upset about affirmative action, black economic empowerment and a democratic South Africa in general, because you think blacks are an inferior race. I’ve certainly heard it often enough.
I hate to disappoint you, but just because I disagree with some ANC policies and actions does not mean I support the aims of organisations you lot seem to hold in high esteem — organisations such as the Boerevolk Trust, or “SF”, which I presume stands for “Stormfront”, the militant white supremacy group founded by the ironically named Don Black, a former Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan, former member of the American Nazi party and convicted international terrorist.
OK, you’re into all this white pride and white supremacy stuff, and you believe God wants us to capitalise those terms. I get the point.
I happen to support the right to free speech. I even agree that this covers the freedom to spew your brand of brain-dead hatred. But we have the right not to listen. Just as you support the right to reserve admission to your little get-togethers (that’s what ROAR stands for, isn’t it, Consulting Engineer?), the moderators here have that right too. As far as I’m concerned, they don’t exercise it often enough.
You lot are just as mindless as those people whose knee-jerk reaction to every criticism is to yell “racist”. That your knee-jerk reaction is to yell “race” makes no difference.
I’ve had my fill of it. Put a sheet on your head and dance somewhere else, please. There are no burning crosses here.
(This post, unlike most, was not first published on my own blog.)
OK, I am an expert on African languages so, to send us on our way for the week-end, I have attempted the translation of these wise words from Khoza. Thanks for your contribution Khoza.
Below, K stands for Khoza and T for translation.
K: “So much for being an African mfowethu”
T: So much for being an African M***** (Bad Word! Let’s say “gay” instead).
K: “Uzowukhomba”
T; I like Uzo(Greek aniseed liquer), it makes you hamba (leave rather quickly, european version can be shortened to two letters i.e. f and o).
K: “umuzi onotshwala ngempela”
T: I’m not sure of this one but it ends with a bad word i.e. pela, so I think it means; I want to fornicate.
K: “kuse Africa la, hatshi e Europe!”
T: Curse Africa, I prefer Europe
How am I doing, Khoza, my friend?
@Khoza
No it wasnt deliberate. For some reason i thought it was spelled with an s.
I can speak to the soccer coach. I speak French. Can do German as well. How do they communicate with the players?
Maybe the politics in soccer is why Bafana-banana is 62 in the world and dropping. Now with quotas they also want to kill the springbokke.
African has no meaning. It is not a race, nor is european. It is also not a nation. They are locations.
I am racially White of South African Nationality and a native speaker of european langauges. I have no link to europe, except as racial relatives, nor could I reside there without applying for immigration, same as you.
You are racially Negroid of one or the other Nguni tribal origin, and of South African Nationality like me. You are a native speaker of some Bantu language.
I don’t know what the issue is and why this is confusing for you.
I just had a quick look through the other “thought-leader” bloggers on this M&G website. Looking at their names and photos, as a rough and ready guesstimate I´d say 70% are white, 15% black, and 15% Indian and Coloured. Oh, dammit I forgot, we´re not allowed to use apartheid words like “coloured” anymore are we? OK, then as the ANC has categorised anyone who is not white as “black” (and what can be more racist and divisive than the “one drop of blood” rule?), then surely they should forewith be called “honorary blacks”..? Because, effectively that is how the ANC regards them. Or is there some shame attached to that..?
Anyway, back to the point I was about to make.
70% white when whites are less than 10% of the new (unimproved) SA..? I think someone needs to bring this to the attention of the ANC´s colour police.
Where´s the diversity of colour..?
Secondly, I see that virtually all the whites are either well-known left-wing idealogues – veterans of the “struggle – or, of those that are not – it is clear from their writings that, lest they be suspected as “closet racists”, they feel it is their daily duty to engage in ritualised denunciations of apartheid and white “racist attitudes”, like “whingeing endlessly” about crime, corruption, public-service incompetence, racist legislation like Affirmative Action, and now power-cuts, etc. Either way, their politics leans towards mealy-mouthed acquiescence and thus their writings tend to be boringly predictable.
So where´s the diversity of opinion…?
@Eagle & Khoza
Our Zulu friend is going on about Zulu pride. i think what he wanted to say is
Bayasho abadala ngesiZulu bathi ‘bazowukhomba umuzi onotshwala ngempele’. Its a slogan.
I prefer he carries on about Zulu pride than he sells his soul to the anti-racists and becomes as spineless as them. A proud Zulu is better than a liberal white that runs from reference to their own race.
@ Eagle on February 28th, 2008 at 5:08 pm
I could contradict just about every point (with the exception of your achievements) in your response to me posting , but I will choose just a few.
>”most of your postings .. have been hopelessly inaccurate.”
One item wrong, and one inaccurate, I’ll admit. If that means “most” to you, well thats your choice.
>”Mbeki’s quiet diplomacy…:”
I have always opposed this policy, not that my opposition counts for anything on this one.
>”tell me what a rampant uncontrolled population explosion….”
Population explosion is a term is used for countries with long term average fertility rates of say 4 to 6 or more children per woman of childbearing age. Fertility rates drop sharply as urbanization increases. Reputable bodies such as the United Nations Department of Economic and Social Affairs, Population Division http://www.un.org/esa/population do not indicate anything near a population explosion for SA (or Swaziland, Botswana or Zimbabwe for that matter) over the next 40 years. They do indicate a population explosion in several other African countries (e.g. Uganda) and also some Asian countries. In fact, because of HIV/AIDS related deaths, UN ESA predicts nearly zero population growth for SA.
>”You presume to know me…..”
I made no such presumption
>”What have you done besides wagging the finger?”
I have trained/coached/mentored maybe 30 people. Taught maybe a hundred in a company training centre, and at night classes. I have helped semiskiled operators to become artisans. I have to admit, I may never get close to the impressive numbers of people you allegedly helped.
>”you demean the suffering of other people for your own agenda”
I do not demean the suffering of others. I have no secret/hidden agenda. I take up the pen when I see untruths or lies or misrepresentation of the facts on these blogs.
>”How will white people of this age progress if all jobs are reserved for AA candidates?”
All means 100%. I do not work at a co. where 100% jobs are reserved for AA candidates. Some of the new recruits are young white males. A few of the senior and top management promotions go to white males in the 40-50 year age group.
I was referring to those whites who resign out of their own free will. Whites at my present co. who resign generally tend to be aged 30-45, have marketable skills, and they immediately move to higher paying jobs in SA. They typically join SMMEs, but continue to work in the same industry sector, and use their previous experience and expertise.
>”I started working in 1968. Then already most of the large companies were putting Affirmative Action in place……”
It is quite apparent that you were blissfully ignorant of Job Reservation in South Africa prior to 1994. This also calls into question your understanding of other aspects of South African history.
You imply that the Sullivan Principles were in place or being applied in SA in 1968. They came into being in 1977. And then they were applied firstly in US based companies. Non US based companies reformed at their own pace, and were under no pressure whatsoever to conform to the Sullivan Principles. For example, the Sullivan Principles called for integrated canteens. Many large SA companies had segregated canteens until the mid 1980s.
Principle no. 5 of the original 7 principles announced in 1977, ( see http://www.revleonsullivan.org/principled/principles.htm
) reads: “Increasing the number of blacks and other nonwhites in management and supervisory positions”. However, neither this principle, nor any of the remaining 6 implied favouring black and other nonwhite applicants at the expense of whites. Nowhere is there any mention or implication that “blacks and other nonwhites” should get preference over whites who may be more suited to the job in terms of qualification or experience. No mention of favouring black and other nonwhite females, white females, or the disabled over white males.
Clearly the Sullivan Principles cannot be compared to present day AA.
>” There was no job reservation for whites amongst the medium and large companies … although some jobs were reserved for people with the education and skills, and nothing prevented blacks from obtaining an education….”
Job Reservation – which applied differently to different races (but never adversely affected whites, as job reservation was designed to “protect” their interests) , different trades and different industries, different geographical areas – was alive and kicking at least until the late 1980s. As it never affected you personally, you are perhaps unable to comprehend that it existed.
Until the late 1970s, the Electricity Supply Commission, (later called Eskom) , Atomic Energy Corporation, South African Post Office/Posts and Telecommunications, SA Railways and Harbours, Iscor, and at least certain municipalities including the City of Cape Town, ALL had policies that either excluded engineers and scientists who were not white, or which had restrictions on where they could work. It was then govt. policy (first articulated by HF Verwoed) that nonwhites were not to “compete” with whites, but could work in their own areas. So a black/coloured/Indian scientist for example would be considered for a job at a SAPO facility in a black/coloured/Indian township , he was not eligible to work at head office, or in a R&D lab for example. Blacks could also work in their own homelands.
[ as an aside, in 1975, Iscor was not prepared to employ white female Computer Science graduates, but such discrimination was due to male chauvinism, not due to legislation or govt policy. ]
Up to the early 1970s, coloured or Indian engineering students battled to get vacation work, a prerequisite to being awarded an engineering degree. Bursaries for the above institutions were for whites only, until the late 1970s.
One Indian who dropped out of university and later became an outstanding artisan/technician, told me he dropped out because his friends who started engineering studies at varsity before him could not get vacation jobs, and his family, who were not wealthy by any means, could not afford to make a huge financial sacrifice for him all in vain.
So what did these engineers and scientists of colour do after graduation – many went into teaching (some at high schools) , and some emigrated.
Of course, blacks, coloureds and Indians were employed in all sorts of lower skilled jobs, and in some skilled jobs which fell outside of job reservation categories (e.g. De Beers had some black process operators in Kimberly in 1975.). Semi-skilled jobs in the telecommunications industry in Pretoria (and probably Johannesburg too) were reserved for whites until the late 1960s, I think. One well known co. was unable to obtain suitable or sufficient white women for its telecommunications factory, so it ILLEGALY recruited coloured women, who were chosen purely on the basis of their surnames – eligible if they had a surname commonly used by whites!). When some bigwig like the Postmaster General visited the factory, the coloured women were ushered out of sight immediately prior to the visit, so he would not know that the govt was being duped by this co.
In Pretoria, the first black apprentices in the private telecoms industry were recruited around 1979/80.
Job reservation applied differently in trades, compared to managerial jobs or jobs requiring a degree. In the Western Cape, coloureds were accepted in apprenticeship schemes, but not blacks, as the Western Cape was a Coloured Labour Preferential area. Blacks could only get menial jobs outside of black townships . Up till the end of the 1970s, one could find blacks with science degrees employed in menial jobs like petrol pump attendants in the Western Cape.
One final aspect of racial discrimination . At some stage, presumably during the late 1950s but possibly during earlier times, a policy got implemented which forbade blacks (but not coloureds or Indians) from studying engineering at a South African university. This policy was only finally dropped during the mid 1970s. Blacks who insisted they wanted to study engineering were graciously granted a concession by the Nat government: they could leave South Africa forever, on a so called “one way exit permit” and then go and study where they pleased. I knew one black guy who was highly respected in the HR field, who had studied law in SA. His first choice, he said, was mechanical engineering, and he won a scholarship in 1974 to study at Carnegie Mellon in the USA, but he could not bring himself to leave SA forever, so he had to forgo that opportunity.
The policy did not suddenly fall away though. It was first amended so blacks could study engineering after having FIRST completed a BSc degree at a black university. So it would take blacks 6-7 years to get a degree that other races could complete in 4 years. After a few years of this relaxed policy, the policy was scrapped entirely.
Some blacks did of course go the exit permit route., Wellington Mlungisi Tshazibane was an Oxford trained Chemical engineer (with a Masters degree, if the newspaper report at the time was correct). He worked in Lesotho, and returned during a particularly dark era of SA. He was detained at the notorius John Voster Square in Dec 1976, and shortly after being detained, he was dead. “suicide by hanging” was the official cause of his death, according the authorities.. and is reported as such in the TRC Report. The authorities allege he was involved in sabotage, but many an innocent person was detained during those days.
Now, you can call of the above “lies of the past”, but they are facts.
Maybe this stuff is “really tiresome” for you, but perhaps others find your postings tiresome too.
Call me an oldfart if it makes you happy. All over the world over the ages, untold numbers of people have been tortured or killed for telling the truth. If I merely get called names, well, it won’t bother me in the least. My mom told me when I was very little not to get upset if people call me names, and I never forgot that good advice!
@Invinoveritas
Perhaps the reason the TLs are so so heavily infested with white liberals is that liberals are even more prone to ‘racist’ bashing than are Blacks.
Their whole reason for being was anti-apartheid. Without Apartheid they must now find something else white to bash. That is their raison d’etre. What is easier to bash than us whites who speak our minds? Bash these whites and Blacks will applaud you and fence sitting whites will keep silent for fear of being considered ‘racist’. It is a new form of oppression and intimidation.
If they bash anything Black they run the risk of being labelled ‘racist’. By bashing ‘racists’ they hope to gain favour with the new elite, but I think Blacks are far too clever to fall for this and see through the white liberal self-serving agenda.
I love it when Blacks see through their hypocrisy and bash white liberals.
If liberals want to bash anything in the government that can ever be construed as Black bashing, they make sure they distance themselves from the race component, and give a double dose of white and previous regime bashing just for good measure.
I wonder if they ever feel a twinge of conscience. White National Servicemen, and older campers with families kept them safe and died while they were in the ECC ducking their service.
Together with whites, there were many Black and Coloured servicemen who fought along side their white comrades. This the liberals ignore, as it does not fit their agenda of the ‘evils’ of the past regime. They ignore that we never had a problem getting along with Blacks and white and black fought together against the terror threat.
To a large extent they foment the problems. Was there ever a riot with no media present? No. The presence of the media was an instigator for a riot. The left wanted to gain publicity. This should also be on their conscience, if they have one.
The diversity of opinion…? if we ever get too ‘diverse’, they delete our posts, so we try and keep them moderate. Diversity is allowed as long as it is not too pro-white and doesnt upset liberals.
@ Consulting Engineer.
Good one.
The other problem is that it is very difficult to find one face to face as they then cannot hide behind anonymity when uttering their ignorant and insulting drivel, as they do on here.
@ oldf***. Talking about pc Liberals, I will respond to you shortly. Suffice it to say, once again, that you would save a lot of time if you would just admit your errors and let things rest before shooting off so defensively and looking foolish again.
@consulting engineer, who said..
If liberals want to bash anything in the government that can ever be construed as Black bashing, they make sure they distance themselves from the race component, and give a double dose of white and previous regime bashing just for good measure.
thats it…thats precisely what they do..!
very well put CE..!
btw – I mentioned the ANC´s “colour police” but I think a much more appropriate name is
PIG-MENTATION POLICE..!
@Invinoveritas
Keep it up and the famous gang of four racists will be a gang of five! ha ha! Welkom broer.You don’t have to join.They label you. To win a debate with a liberal makes you a racist and you will also be a filty racist crawling out of some crevice.
Pretty soon just thinking for yourself will be racist.
Pig-mention ha ha! funny.
@ IVOR
First if what you say it true about the people’s identity, and that you have traced them, then I am afraid to say that it looks like you could be spending the next few years behind bars.
You see the only way you could link people to three differant sites is through either
A ) Comparing their IP addresses, which would mean that you would either have to have admin status, on those sites or that you hacked those sites.
or
B ) You have hacked the person’s private computor.
Hacking is a criminal offense.
Of course there is another way you could have done it leagly,
Namely you are in fact an administrator on those sites.
So please tell me which is it are you
A ) Infact a WN trying to fool everyone
or
B ) A self confessed criminal?
PS ROAR??????????
There is no such site.
There is, of course, a third explanation, namely that one of the people in question admitted, in a public post to this website, to membership of, ties with, or use of, the groups I cited. That this person has not denied my interpretation (of “SF” in particular) suggests my powers of speculative deduction have served me well.
Your wish for white ‘supremacy’ to ‘begone’ is a faint hope. What you call ‘supremacy’ is actually White Nationalism; a desire by whites to band together to protect themselves and their culture from the assimilation that engulfs them, and by peaceful means.
It is A desire to live in peace and with our european values. It has nothing to do with hate. It is what is protected in the constitution as Freedom of Association.
It is the concept of multicult, liberalism and its byproducts, and the blending of races that is the biggest threat to the demographics of whites, not any other race itself. It is those that tell us to ignore race that threaten us most. Most such people happen to be white.
Take away the language of instruction, blow up voortrekker historical monuments, change names, keep on mudering whites, force mixed accomodation where neither wants it and you fuel its growth. Survival of yourself, family and culture is a basic instinct.
Hate seems to be what liberals specialise in: hate of ‘racists’, hate of conservative values, hate of Apartheid, hate of everyone who doesnt agree with them, hate of reference to race, hate of hate itself.
While liberals in SA wish to duck the race issue and follow the ostrich approach, racial issues and the Right are making strides in Europe and are at the core of political issues. It is the natural outcome of forced integration and refusing to allow race discussion. As a result the issues build up.
After many years, Switzerland has a right wing government. People are fed up with the problems of multicult:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9903EFDC173CF932A25751C1A9659C8B63&fta=y
The right wing is the 3rd largest party in Norway, once one of the most liberal of all nations, and is
growing
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article2264811.ece
In France the extreme right wing gets 15-20% of the vote and is growing. The second-place finish of Jean-Marie Le Pen is all the more stunning given that the Right-wing vote was split so many ways:
http://www.adl.org/international/LePen-1-introduction.asp
Even in Germany, the growth of the right is fueling a debate whether to ban or not to ban:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,339604,00.html
Although still small, the extreme right wing in the UK, is growing rapidly. Although having no seats in national parliment as yet, they have 48 councillors in local government
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party
Europe’s rising Right-wing tide is sweeping the core countries of the European Union. It threatens Germany’s Social Democrats and threatening France’s socialist government.
Over the last two years, Austria, Italy, Denmark, Portugal, and Norway have all turned against the centre-Left consensus that had such a lock on Europe during the 1990s.
Even Holland, the model of easy-going tolerance, has fallen under the spell of Pim Fortuyn. Just across the border, the Flemish Vlaams Blok far-Right movement is now the biggest party in Antwerp, much to the horror of Belgium’s press and the political establishment.
And who can forget the success of Jorg Haider of Austria’s far-Right Freedom Party.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/04/22/wpen222.xml
Even formerly socialist eastern europe are seeing the need for an alternative to the Simunye-we are one model:
http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=7243
Every where in the world where liberalism has tried to force integration it is failing and has only fueled discontent and a growth of the right. Attempts to repress it only fuels it growth.Unless the cause of discontent is addressed it will only grow.
The discontent cannot be wished away by ‘begone’
Now do you want to ignore it and suppress it and face it in uglier form later, like in europe, or do you want to acknowledge it is a real concern?
@ Ivo
I Denied your explanation before and suggested you examine the groups you slander before indulging in name calling.
I posted this:
Here is what we are about from an indepenent non-racial source, a source that monitors all forums and groups:
http://www.big-boards.com/highlight/339/
Stormfront is a resource for white men and women fighting to preserve their white western culture, ideals and freedom of speech and association, a forum for planning strategies and forming political and social groups to ensure achieving this community’s goals.
I challenged you to find one place on there where Don Black or David Duke advocate white supremacy.
Your speculation is nothing but a liberal knee jerk reaction to a movement you dont understand or dont agree with.
The group may contain some nazis, some skinheads and even some supremacists. But far more dominant are the are the average men and women with jobs families careers etc. There are doctors, lawyers, teachers, professors, farmers, engineers etc. They probably vote conservative but it looks like some are voting Obama. So how does that gel with your ‘supremacy’ tag?
Tell me, if a Black supremacist joins the ANC does it make it a Black supremacist party?
If a gay joins the DA, is the DA a gay party?
That is the extent of your speculation and logic.
And still you miss the point.
I haven’t got a problem with racism. If you read this piece, I pointed out that I acknowledge your right to freedom of speech, and freedom of association. And if you check my latest column in Maverick, I advocate making hate speech legal, because heaven knows people will always find someone to hate, and life is boring if Sharks and Arsenal fans are the only people you can properly sledge.
You want to be racist, be my guest. Actually, no. The point is, be someone else’s guest. Because as much as you have a right to your White Pride and Nationalism and burning crosses, I have a right not to listen, not to associate with you, and to dismiss your angry diatribes as worthwhile contributions to a rational debate.
Because I do have a problem when you flood my comments section in your efforts to turn every debate about every issue into an unhinged rants about how superior the whites are/were, and how the problem is blacks can’t run a country, and how everything I’ve written only goes to prove how right your racism is.
And just to prove how hysterical you lot have really become, how useless your contributions are to a rational debate, it is worth pointing out that if I’m a pinko-liberal in your eyes, you’d better file Winston Churchill, Margaret Thatcher, George W Bush, Ronald Reagan and William F Buckley under “leftwing ideologues” too.
Now, begone. Go exercise your right to free speech somewhere else. Try exercising your right of dissociation for a change.
@ oldf***,
I am now sure that you are communist troll. Your postings are all about nitpicking and twisting facts into misinformation e.g.
Old f:>”tell me what a rampant uncontrolled population explosion….”
Eagle: actually, my quote was:
“a rampant uncontrolled population explosion in the midst of endemic poverty.”
Eagle: Your prattle about definitions and predictions does not alter the fact that the black population increased by more than 40 million over the past 50 years with no supporting increase in income generation, whereas the white population increased by 3 million. Unemployed, impoverished people have 4,5,6, children with no prospect of supporting them. Anyone with a brain can see that this is one of the primary causes of poverty amongst black people.
Old f: > Eagle says: “What have you done besides wagging the finger?”
Old f: “I have trained/coached/mentored maybe 30 people. It is incumbent upon all of us, to do what we can to help improve the country.”
Eagle: I am not talking about the job you are being paid to do. I am talking about putting your hand in your pocket and taking out your own money. Have you got any black people living in your house? Surely that is the least you can do.
Old f: Eagle says: >”you demean the suffering of other people for your own agenda”
Old f: “I do not demean the suffering of others.”
“AA is a new phenomenon in the workplace. It does result in some whites leaving, so that they can progress.”
Eagle: Ignoring the fact that companies such as ESKOM, Telkom, Spoornet, the Government services, etc. etc. has over the past 5 to 10 years laid of tens of thousands of white people as a result of AA, is demeaning their suffering. These are people who cannot find work elsewhere due to AA and due to the fact that they are generally “too old” for the job market. They are generally people who have serious financial commitments. How are they to meet these financial commitments without a job?
Old f: “Whites at my present co. who resign generally tend to be aged 30-45, have marketable skills, and they immediately move to higher paying jobs in SA.”
Eagle: You are seriously delusional, oldfart. Most of the companies which I mentioned above have a policy of demoting the person in the job especially managers, to “caretaker” of their own positions. The job is then advertised internally and the selection criteria is; one – race, two – skills and education, three – length of service. Therefore white people will only find jobs if there are no black applicants for the jobs and that, of course happens very seldom, as black people know that they will get a job based on their skin colour alone, no experience necessary. Why do you think that companies such as Eskom, Telkom, the Government, are in the trouble that they are in.
Old f: “They typically join SMMEs”
Eagle: So you are saying the same as I am. Due to AA they have no choice but to start their own businesses where typically, they cannot get lucrative contracts due to legislation such as BEE and the Preferential Procurement Act and struggle to make it due to an SME tax burden which currently exceeds 110%.
Old f: “You imply that the Sullivan Principles were in place or being applied in SA in 1968.”
Eagle: You know where you can stick your liberal habit of twisting words. I said nothing of the sort. Read my posting again. Leon Sullivan joined the board of General Motors in 1971 and he then started to apply pressure on SA companies to abolish “Apartheid”. He was just another in a long line of Liberals who did not care the harm that they were inflicting on the country, they just wanted their own way.
Old f: “They came into being in 1977″
Eagle: I worked at General Motors from 1968 to 1974 and one of my fist jobs was to start implementing the principles which was a combination of our own AA systems and the Sullivan Principles in draft form. The formalized version of the Sullivan Principles was only officially issued in 1977 but by that time we were in the process of complying with most of them already. You conveniently forget that many of the large companies were owned by the Americans, the British, etc. etc. Most of the GM top brass was in fact American and they did not wait for the government but set their own policies internally. That is why it is mentioned in your own extract that “General Motors was the largest employer of blacks in South Africa at that time”
Old f: Principle no. 5 of the original 7 principles announced in 1977 reads: “Increasing the number of blacks and other nonwhites in management and supervisory positions”. “However, neither this principle, nor any of the remaining 6 implied favouring black and other nonwhite applicants at the expense of whites.”
Eagle: You conveniently omit principal No 2 which states:
2. Equal and fair employment practices for all employees
Eagle: You are now seriously staring to waste my time. If you cannot see that these principles favour black applicants over whites then you have other comprehension and psychological problems which I can do nothing about.
The rest of your writing is unsubstantiated, inaccurate nitpicking drivel such as the “points” above and I am not going to waste my time with it any further except to say:
• You have agreed that “job reservation” fell away during the mid 1970’s i.e. 30-35 years ago. Given that the average person would have to have been at an age of approximately 30 years old to be considered for these positions you are in fact saying that only people older than 60 years old today were “disadvantaged” through “job reservation”. Why then is management incompetence such a big problem?
• The blacks in South Africa went to war with the whites during the late 1800s, they were defeated and the country then belonged to the white race to do with what they wanted. In addition the black race was an illiterate, underdeveloped people when the first settlers landed here and when the Nationalist party came into power.
• Instead of decimating the black race, whites chose to co-exist with them and to skill, educate and develop them. Standards for black education were lowered as it became clear that blacks were not on the same entry level education as whites but the matric certificate for blacks and whites had the same value. Black universities were built in the homelands, some of amongst the best in the country such as the medical university in Bophuthatswana. Universities such as Fort Hare in the Former Ciskei were densely populated with black students already in the 1970s.
• Blacks responded to these efforts to assist them by rioting and burning down their schools and thereafter blaming whites for “depriving them of education”.
• It was the right of the Nationalist party to put into place a political system of their own choice. For the benefit of all they put into place the Policy of Separate development i.e. “Apartheid”. To this end some of the best land in SA was set aside for black development and self-rule.
• Blacks scuttled these efforts through rioting, terrorist activities and the neck lacing and bombing of civilians.
• Despite all the criticism and opportunism on behalf of the ANC the nationalist government had a responsibility only to their voters. Blame placing such as “injustices of the past” has never been tested in a court of law.
• Nor the 55 millions blacks here today or their forefathers had done anything to take responsibility for themselves and educate and develop their own people despite the efforts of the white man and the billions of Rands of white money spent towards this end.
For the rest read my other posts, I am tired of repeating myself to a communist troll.
@ivo
If you “haven´t got a problem with racism”, then why did you open this discussion with slanderous remarks bordering on hysteria or paranoia..?
It makes me very angry that you, and others like you with access to the media, can get away with this sort of thing – “Crawling out of filthy crevices” – as if we are cockroaches which must be squashed in order to cleanse the country of some pestilence.
Do you call us those names in order to ingratiate yourself with your black bosses..? I dont believe you would dare use such terminology against anyone in the government, yet it is they not us who are the real racists.
As CE remarked above, if you say anything which can be construed as anti-ANC, you “balance” your criticism with a double-dose of anti-white slander. This is intellectual cowardice.
Anyway, if you now regret making those remarks you should have the courage to admit it.
And before you start vilyfying “racism” and “racists” please learn the difference between Benign and Malign forms of racism. No prizes for guessing which form the ANC practices.
Lets open a debate on that topic. Until then I think you DO have “a problem with racists”
@Ivo
You maliciously keep misinterpreting what we say and someone keeps deleting my replies.
White Nationalism is not White supremacy. The preservation of the White race, our lands and culture is our main objective -not hate. We have a right to defend ourselves from the multicultural elite whose agendas are destroying our nations, and our history. We have a right to defend ourselves from others who openly threaten us! We have a right to voice our concerns. Are you the owner of the M&G to deny us this right?
Burdensome racial preference schemes in hiring, race-normed employment tests, racial preference schemes in university admissions, racial preference schemes in government contracting and small business loans. Beyond quotas there is the denial of rights of free speech and of due process to Whites who are critical of these governmental policies. We have special punishments for vandalism and assaults committed by Whites if the perpetrators have a history of anti-egalitarian thought. In addition, Whites pay a proportion of the costs of the welfare state that is disproportionate to what they receive in benefits.
But the most exploitative aspect of the situation is that neither the racial quotas, the business preferences, the loss of freedom of speech, nor the disproportionate contributions to the welfare state have managed to sate the appetites of non-whites.
The more Whites sacrifice, the more non-whites demand. Many Whites are beginning to believe that no amount of tribute, other than mass suicide, would satisfy the non-white demands.
If our presence stirs up that much hatred in the hearts of non- whites, then what sensible course of action is left?
@Invino
What can I say after that? But you stand up for your beliefs and your matjies like a true brother.
I dont know if you are a man or woman, but you are very much your own man, think for yourself and are always fair. That is a huge compliment.
Go well my friend.
@Ivo
There are two issues here:
• Have you heard of the “cause and effect” syndrome? The effects which you are getting on here have been caused by your white bashing and the socialist, leftist comments from you and some of your readers on here. Do you think that we are just going to lie down and take it? We have been taking it for 14 years from all quarters, including the government. Enough is enough.
• Secondly, we are probably giving you and your lefty, socialist readers too much credibility on here as you lot are actually way out of line. Accusations of racism and white supremacy are very serious allegations and, if they are made face to face, you will probably have to prove them or face legal action. Despite the many calls for proof by myself and others on here, NOT ONE person has been able to supply proof to substantiate these allegations. Last year I took to court for ‘crimen injuria’ a black person who alleged that I was a racist. Unfortunately he made the mistake of putting it in writing. He got the fright of his life and the matter was settled.
So please, if it is getting too hot for you then get out of the kitchen. But don’t try to use this log to promote a leftist agenda which will plunge this country further into crises and then expect those blessed with brains, to keep quiet.
@InVinoVeritas: If you have read much of my commentary, I almost never address race, and this time I did so in isolation. I don’t balance anti-government arguments with a swipe at white racists, though I do sometimes balance them with swipes at black racists. I took a swipe at white racists because they were getting up my nose with their cookie-cutter responses to any and all issues. This post was an attempt to dismiss one-size-fits-all racist whining so we can get back to the issues at hand.
@Eagle: Dude, I’m as rightwing as they come. I’m a hard-core free-marketeer who believes government has little or no justifiable purpose other than providing common defence, protecting private property rights and enforcing contract law. And even those can be outsourced. That you see me as leftwing, socialist or an apologist for government merely betrays the depth of your racist paranoia.
@Ivo
Interesting concept of you being right wing. Here is a definition I found:
the ideologies and philosophies of right-wing political parties have included elements of conservatism, Christian democracy, liberalism, libertarianism, and nationalism; and for extreme-right parties racism and fascism.
However, it is generally used to refer to the segments of the political spectrum often associated with any of several strains of Conservatism, Traditionalism, Monarchism, Right-libertarianism, Royalism, Corporatism, the Religious Right, Nationalism, Militarism, Producerism, Nativism, or simply Reactionism for the sake of being the opposite of left-wing politics.
For those on the extreme right, you are still to the left ha ha!
By the way, I saw your blog is nominated as one of the best individual blogs for 2008. Congratulations.
Consulting Engineer
I posted a comment in which I advised Mr Vegter
to put his PC away, but he is no vegter and afraid
to post my comment.Shame!
@cool down: Cool down. I do not (and cannot) vet comments on ThoughtLeader. Nor am I informed when comments are canned. So your attacks on my name and character are misplaced.
However, I do think the moderators are perfectly capable of judging whether a comment is puerile, ad hominem, offensive or simply without merit. This post has attracted 180 comments, many of which were excellent examples of the gratuitous racism I attacked in the first place, so yours must have been a particularly egregious example. Forgive me for not feeling guilty, or upset that it got rejected. As I said, as far as I’m concerned, the moderators are welcome to use the delete button more often, if that improves the quality of debate on ThoughtLeader.
Your constitutional freedom of speech binds the government. It doesn’t mean that all your ejaculations are of equal value, or that everyone within earshot must subject themselves to your speech lest they infringe on your rights.
@Consulting Engineer: Thanks. And yes, I’m sure I am to the left of, say, the Klan. But that hardly makes me a socialist. In fact, that directly contradicts the principle that is at the core of my political and economic thinking: individual liberty.
So Mr Vegter
Who is prtecting you?
Who protects me from what?
I think I just told you that “I do not (and cannot) vet comments on ThoughtLeader. Nor am I informed when comments are canned.”
So I don’t know that I am “protected”, let alone by whom. The Mail & Guardian Online has several editors which it employs for the purpose of editing posts and vetting comments. I know only two or three of them, myself. Unlike them, I don’t work for the Mail & Guardian.
Correction: I just discovered that ThoughtLeader bloggers can, in fact, moderate comments on their own post, should they choose to do so. I have never exercised this power I never knew I had. But be warned! In future, I can censor you! I can abridge your constitutional rights! I can oppress you! I’m armed and dangerous! I have a keyboard, and I’m not afraid to use it!
Wow!
Consulting Engineer
My army training was not in vain. I knew the
of the ‘enemies’weoponary before he even
was aware of them.Good for him this is PC-warfare
and not the real thing.
If you don’t hear of me again,know that these
liberals ‘are a clear and present danger’ to
whom the sale of advanced It-knowledge should
be declared illegal!!
@ Ivo
The old term “Rebel without a cause” comes to mind. You have switched viewpoints so many times that not many of us know where you stand on anything. However, the one thing that has been consistent throughout your postings is your white bashing and the fact that you sidestep every comment or question that justify the points of view of the white realists on here.
As per my first post, some 180 posts earlier, which you still have not answered; please post the comments from myself and others which justify your labels of “racists” and “crawling out of crevices”, etc. ?
@Ivo
You havent said thank you. This thread has greatly boosted your popularity. It looks like the largest one on the whole site!
We will hit the 200 mark soon.
Individual liberty is a great thing. But I keep bumping my head against obstruction of liberty. Our schools are decaying and multicult is forced on us. Some may want it but some don’t. Those that don’t have it rammed down their throat. Our children cannot stay in hostels without being subjected to integration.
We can’t even purchase firearms anymore without red tape to keep them out of citizens hands and ensure only criminals are armed, we cant tender unless our skin is not white etc etc. Even if I want to employ someone the hand of government is in place to make sure those we employ are not white.
And we are the ones that see race?
Actually, this isn’t my most popular post, CE. But it does have the most comments. And I did thank you, but for something else. You do raise valid points, but usually through the lens of identity politics. Since that introduces a substantial element of irrationality and subjectivity (at best) I prefer not to respond objectively to them. And making that point was the purpose of this little exercise in exorcising racism.
Eagle, I did answer you. I pointed out that I didn’t name you in my original post, but you’re welcome to act all paranoid about it. If the white hood fits, wear it.
Cool down, get a sense of humour. I promise I won’t censor you, k?
@ Ivo,
Still hopping, skipping and jumping around, I see. You are obviously not going to justify your comments under any circumstances, be it to any of us dirty supremacist racists. I do enjoy watching you lefties squirm when you speak without thinking and then have to dodge the fallout of your comments.
Being the owner of an Industrial Engineering business and operating in a consulting environment every day where one mistake could cost millions, I just wonder how you, who also seem to have a consulting aspect to your job, would view a consultant who uses a shotgun approach without having the facts but who will not stand behind any of his statements, under any circumstances?
It would be interesting to get your comment on this question.
@ Ivo,
In response to your comment:
“Eagle, I pointed out that I didn’t name you in my original post, but you’re welcome to act all paranoid about it. If the white hood fits, wear it.”
Perhaps this quote from your original post might help:
Ivo says:
“Perhaps EAGLE, who asked me for facts in dispute of his RACIST ANALYSIS, could point out some genetic contamination in Russian communists of which I’m unaware. Perhaps he’d care to explain why your average white European welfare-statist, socialist or unionist falls for the same economic fallacies as your average black African welfare-statist, socialist or unionist. Or why the term “national socialism” derives from the economic policy of the ultimate, pure-as-the-driven-snow Aryan supremacy group of them all.”
My question is Ivo, how does the above large multi-line paragraph qualify in NOT naming me? Maybe my white hood is obscuring my vision but from where I stand, it looks like you are very definately naming me.
Ivo
I have a sense of humour,perhaps not your sense
of humour,because I dont start my comments
by stating that liberals crawl out of crevices and
if I had stooped that low I would have said
they ‘crawled out clean crevices’.
My problem with you is that you like to dish it out
and soon complain that those who do not share
your apparent superior insight,you complain that
they flood your blog.
Now tell me Sir what exactly is your claim to fame
that allows you to state that those who do not
agree with you ‘crawl from filthy crevices’.
This complaint of flooding blogs is like what is happening here. The liberals cannot counter facts so quickly run off after launching a few names and insults. So it appears like the ‘racists’ chase everyone off. Better to run when you cant counter.
They make the claim they cant stand being around racists. In reality they cannot refute the racists. How many ‘non racists’ have claimed on this thread alone that our facts are always correct and we are often right and make better logical arguements, even though they dont like the conclusions? We also dont get emotional and make rants like ‘filthy crevices’ etc.
Only very few, like oldfox, try to counter with facts without hysteria. But even oldfox seems to have taken a turn to the right these days.
So as long as we see BS being paraded as intellect, pussy footing around issues where race is important for fear of the ‘racist’ tag we will continue to speak until deleted.
Apartheid is not to blame as nations that never had it are still failures. Why is the crime rate and welfare rate of ‘african-americans’ so high?
In German it would be Ohne Wittmanne laeuft nichts mehr.
Ah, yes, sorry Eagle. I named you not as one of the four, but only to respond to your request for answers in your comment on Alison’s post.
Like cool down, however, you seem to take my comments suspiciously personally, so I think it’s safe to assume that you’re cut from the same cloth.
And no, cool down, my comments weren’t aimed at those who don’t agree with me. My comments were aimed at racists of the Stormfront.org variety. Perhaps I’m wrong. Perhaps God is a White Nationalist, and racism is morally superior to my own craven left-liberal mud-blood philosophy. But in my opinion, SF constitutes a filthy crevice, and I don’t particularly want to listen to the racist rants that crawl out of it every time I’m critical of the ANC.
No wonder the ANC thinks anyone who criticises it is just a racist bigot. They way you lot carry on, they appear justified in using that as a blanket shield against any and all attacks.
Now if you’ll excuse me, this has gone on long enough. I have a shady deal involving a black man, a corrupt front company, a BEE deal and the ANC to write about. And you’ll have to forgive me for doing so without implying that blacks can’t run countries or companies, but limiting myself to elementary political philosophy and economic theory.
@Ivo and Eagle
Regarding blaming russian communism on the russian people consider this:
Karl Marx (born Levi) and another Jew, Friedreich Engels, issued “The Communist Manifesto” in 1848 in London. Marx was descended from a long line of famous Rabbis who were so-called “Talmudic scholars.”
Vladimir Lenin was of Jewish Ancestry as were approximately 95% of the Communists in both the Bolshevik and Menshevik Parties.
LENIN said (From an article in Northern Pravda, October-December 1913) about the communist party, ” the percentage of Jews in democratic and proletarian movements is everywhere higher than the percentage of Jews in the general population.
In the first government of Communist Russia there were only 13 ethnic Russian Commissars and more than 300 Jewish Commissars out of a total of 384 Commissars. The billionaire New York Jew Jacob Schiff was the revolution’s chief financier. Jews were 1.7% of the population of Russia. Of the 6 members of Lenin’s first Politburo, three were Jews, Trotsky, Kamenev and Zinoviev, top five leaders were Jews.”
The Jewish Telegraph Agency of May 14, 1997, said the Jews “…played key roles in ushering Communist rule into Hungary. In fact, during the brutal oppression of the early 1950s, the regime’s top 5 leaders were Jews.
The Kibbutz communes in Israel shows the only people in the world which have voluntarily adopted communal living and is run by marxists. They operate many farms and factories. It is of interest that they are always millions in debt and must be bailed out constantly with U.S. Foreign Aid money.
Regarding the economic policies of the national socialists:
In 1933, Germany was the European country with the bleakest future; possibly no country in the world had worse prospects. Germany was technically bankrupt with no likelihood of rehabilitation. The reasons for this were many and varied:
Massive unemployment
Industrial stagnation
Crippling strike actions by unions
Private investment had fallen to one sixth
Collapse in agricultural prices
Escalating numbers of bankrupt companies
Total earnings had fallen by half
90% of the German people were in dire straits
The Versailles treaty confiscated the richest mineral land and imposed escalating debt repayments that would not be lifted for fifty years.
Communists, funded by the Soviet Union, were taking advantage of the political turmoil with frequent strike action and violent abortive coups.
By the end of NS’s first year in office unemployment had fallen from 6,000,000 to 3,374,000. An unprecedented 2,627,000 jobs had been created at a time when the rest of the world was in deep eceonomic recession.
In 1932, before National Socialism acquired power, the German national income amounted to 45.2 milliard Reichsmarks…. and in 1937 reached the round figure of 68 milliard Reichsmarks. In contrast to this increase in income the general cost of living index remained practically unchanged. In other words, while the national income increased by nearly 50% the increase in the general cost of living rose by only 4%.”
Five years of National Socialist industrial and economic activity show that:
Paper manufacture increased by 50%
The manufacture of diesel oil increased by 66%
The production of coal increased by 68%
The production of oil fuel increased by 80%
The production of mineral oil increased by 90%
The production of artificial silk increased by 100%
The production of Kerosene has increased by 110%
The production of steel has increased by 167%
The production of lubricating oil increased by 190%
Hi man
and here I was rooting for you to reach 200 and
not out. If SF affronts you,dont read it.
Perhaps to will find time to to post your
elementary political philosophy and economic
theory.
Sorry that your ‘Spike’ got a bit blunted
against our ‘racists shields’ and likewise
don’t take it personally.
There is an interesting video and article that documents the history of Political Correctness, except for one detail, they are both too politically correct to mention the tribal affiliation of nearly all the perpetrators of this modern day scourge.
You can find it on http://www.davidduke.com
with all the affilliations and histories included.
Its called The Historical Roots of “Political Correctness” By Raymond V. Raehn
PC seeks to impose a uniformity of thought and behavior on all and is therefore totalitarian in nature.
Critical Theory on which PC is based is essentially destructive criticism of the main elements of Western culture, including Christianity, capitalism, authority, the family, patriarchy, hierarchy, morality, tradition, sexual restraint, loyalty, patriotism, nationalism, heredity, ethnocentrism, convention and conservatism.
Terms like white supremacist, nazi, racist etc are used to suggest that the presence in a society of Christianity, capitalism and the patriarchal-authoritarian family created a character prone to racial prejudice and German fascism.
Traditional beliefs and the existing social structure have to be destroyed and then replaced.
As a grand scheme it is intended to deny the intrinsic worth of white, heterosexual males by the use of guilt in order to upset the social order.
When addressing the general public, advocates of Political Correctness – or cultural Marxism, to give it its true name – present their beliefs attractively. It’s all just a matter of being “sensitive” to other people, they say. They use words such as “tolerance” and “diversity,” asking, “Why can’t we all just get along?”
The reality is different. Political Correctness is not at all about “being nice,” . Political Correctness is Marxism, with all that implies: loss of freedom of expression, thought control, inversion of the traditional social order and, ultimately, a totalitarian state.
The point is simple. We’re never going to agree on this, so I don’t want every discussion to degenerate into an an argument about race. Look at this thread: three-weeks, 200 comments, and still there’s no conclusion. I don’t want such arguments, which merely inflame emotions, and hinder rational discussion, cluttering up every discussion in which I’m involved.
I think you’re wrong, that you variously misrepresent history, mistate cause and effect, mistake correlation with causation, and misunderstand human nature. But more importantly, I don’t care.
That’s not a concession, nor a capitulation, nor a demand for political correctness.
Even if I did think my race, nationality or gender were superior to those of anyone else, such claims would not convince anyone with half a brain of the points I have to make. So I wouldn’t stoop to doing so. And I’m not interested in the arguments of those who do.
Good
That clears the air,but don’t feel affronted
that we feel exactly the same over your submissions
and don’t care either after all a coin has two sides and not one, but you’ll have to sgree
that you could not state your view if ours did
not excist and nor could we.