Comments on: If there is a god, I don’t want to spend eternity with him http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/stuartstobbs/2010/01/31/if-there-is-a-god-i-don%e2%80%99t-want-to-spend-eternity-with-him/ Sun, 12 Feb 2012 10:41:24 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Peace In Our Time http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/stuartstobbs/2010/01/31/if-there-is-a-god-i-don%e2%80%99t-want-to-spend-eternity-with-him/comment-page-2/#comment-117343 Peace In Our Time Fri, 26 Mar 2010 13:11:52 +0000 http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/stuartstobbs/2010/01/31/if-there-is-a-god-i-don%e2%80%99t-want-to-spend-eternity-with-him/#comment-117343 Thank you for a fascinating and well argued debate with little or no mudslinging and some wonderful insights. I feel for your pain and that of the children who had to face such an awful decision and I am glad you have someone to blame. God has broad shoulders. I sincerely hope someone better qualified than myself may have given you some comfort. The closest I can come to that is agreeing with the person who said that perhaps on some deeper subconscious level she could no longer cope and so "fate" "God" intervened. I know that when I stopped trying to understand and control everything in my life and accepted what life gave me daily, a great lightness of spirit enveloped me.There had been a time when I saw my husband as my all and was consumed by fear for his unbelieving heart. When I lost my husband after this surrender I realised that my concern about his unbelief and my assumption that his death would thus be the end was in actual fact the ultimate in human judgement and unbelief and I was given the luxury of being there at the moment of his instant departure while still young and fit. It gave me great comfort to know that he did not suffer except momentarily and I have since received an unsought message from him through a close friend that he is fine and happy.Every life has a season and death is a release from suffering. Thank you for a fascinating and well argued debate with little or no mudslinging and some wonderful insights. I feel for your pain and that of the children who had to face such an awful decision and I am glad you have someone to blame. God has broad shoulders. I sincerely hope someone better qualified than myself may have given you some comfort. The closest I can come to that is agreeing with the person who said that perhaps on some deeper subconscious level she could no longer cope and so “fate” “God” intervened. I know that when I stopped trying to understand and control everything in my life and accepted what life gave me daily, a great lightness of spirit enveloped me.There had been a time when I saw my husband as my all and was consumed by fear for his unbelieving heart. When I lost my husband after this surrender I realised that my concern about his unbelief and my assumption that his death would thus be the end was in actual fact the ultimate in human judgement and unbelief and I was given the luxury of being there at the moment of his instant departure while still young and fit. It gave me great comfort to know that he did not suffer except momentarily and I have since received an unsought message from him through a close friend that he is fine and happy.Every life has a season and death is a release from suffering.

]]> By: Illuvatar http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/stuartstobbs/2010/01/31/if-there-is-a-god-i-don%e2%80%99t-want-to-spend-eternity-with-him/comment-page-2/#comment-111001 Illuvatar Mon, 08 Feb 2010 13:43:01 +0000 http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/stuartstobbs/2010/01/31/if-there-is-a-god-i-don%e2%80%99t-want-to-spend-eternity-with-him/#comment-111001 (Continued from above) Good and Benevolent God? 6) Thanks for the link referral to Wikipedia. Here is one for you in return: http://www.fixed-point.org/index.php/video/35-full-length/164-the-dawkins-lennox-debate It's long, but well worth the watch :-) Cheers! (Continued from above)
Good and Benevolent God?
6) Thanks for the link referral to Wikipedia. Here is one for you in return:

http://www.fixed-point.org/index.php/video/35-full-length/164-the-dawkins-lennox-debate

It’s long, but well worth the watch :-)

Cheers!

]]> By: Illuvatar http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/stuartstobbs/2010/01/31/if-there-is-a-god-i-don%e2%80%99t-want-to-spend-eternity-with-him/comment-page-2/#comment-110997 Illuvatar Mon, 08 Feb 2010 13:40:02 +0000 http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/stuartstobbs/2010/01/31/if-there-is-a-god-i-don%e2%80%99t-want-to-spend-eternity-with-him/#comment-110997 @Amanda I didn't offer Peter Kreeft's article as proof of God's existence - that is an underlying assumption of the article. It is rather an attempt to explain the existence of evil whilst at the same time maintaining a belief in a Good and Benevolent Creator; thus dealing directly with the subject material raised in the TL post above. You raise some further points in your comment: 1) Peter Kreeft is writing from an apologists point view - there is nothing wrong with that given that we're all free to present our arguments in an open forum. 2) "heart is a pump which function is to pump blood through the body" as contrasted with Peter Kreeft's "hard heart" - you employ the classic logical fallacy of Equivocation here. 3) You say that love is an emotion that has it's origin in the brain - I disagree. Lust perhaps is an emotion that has it's origin in the brain, but love is a far more complex entity. That, however, is another topic of discussion not belonging squareley in the discussion at hand. 4) You quote Bill Mayers' stance on the concept of Christian Faith - this again is not a topic that is directly under discussion, therefore to do it justice would require a separate forum of discussion otherwise it just detracts from the current topic. 5) Peter Kreeft is a Catholic - does this mean that it disqualifies him from entering into debate about the existence of evil under a @Amanda
I didn’t offer Peter Kreeft’s article as proof of God’s existence – that is an underlying assumption of the article. It is rather an attempt to explain the existence of evil whilst at the same time maintaining a belief in a Good and Benevolent Creator; thus dealing directly with the subject material raised in the TL post above.

You raise some further points in your comment:

1) Peter Kreeft is writing from an apologists point view – there is nothing wrong with that given that we’re all free to present our arguments in an open forum.
2) “heart is a pump which function is to pump blood through the body” as contrasted with Peter Kreeft’s “hard heart” – you employ the classic logical fallacy of Equivocation here.
3) You say that love is an emotion that has it’s origin in the brain – I disagree. Lust perhaps is an emotion that has it’s origin in the brain, but love is a far more complex entity. That, however, is another topic of discussion not belonging squareley in the discussion at hand.
4) You quote Bill Mayers’ stance on the concept of Christian Faith – this again is not a topic that is directly under discussion, therefore to do it justice would require a separate forum of discussion otherwise it just detracts from the current topic.
5) Peter Kreeft is a Catholic – does this mean that it disqualifies him from entering into debate about the existence of evil under a

]]> By: Jon Story http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/stuartstobbs/2010/01/31/if-there-is-a-god-i-don%e2%80%99t-want-to-spend-eternity-with-him/comment-page-2/#comment-110267 Jon Story Wed, 03 Feb 2010 17:16:34 +0000 http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/stuartstobbs/2010/01/31/if-there-is-a-god-i-don%e2%80%99t-want-to-spend-eternity-with-him/#comment-110267 Larry Goodfella on February 1st, 2010 at 2:44 pm Atheism must be a dying concept if it can only manage 1000 years of peace. If you do not want to spend eternity with god, who's to say he wants to spend it with you. The other day I asked an ant what he thought of man. I actually said, human being. Does not exists, it said. But, said I, you see him every day, you even crawl all over him. I am a man, too, did you know that?. Does not exist, it repeated. I tried again: but sureley you must have an idea... I have no ideas, I am an ant for pete's sake. Me again: What about the nice things I spill all over the place, like sugar grains and dead flies. I told you, it said: does not exist so don't bother me with this kind of questioning. Off it scurried with its fellow ants in search of food. Which I provide fps. Relative to man, the ant is a giant considering the size of man to the sun, a minor star in a universe cock-a-block with billions of stars. Yet, the sun rules our lives, no question about it. Sometimes too hot,often quite pleasant. It will still be there millions of years from now, time incomprehensible. And we question the maker's intentions. An ant would be a wise place to start... Larry Goodfella on February 1st, 2010 at 2:44 pm
Atheism must be a dying concept if it can only manage 1000 years of peace.
If you do not want to spend eternity with god, who’s to say he wants to spend it with you.

The other day I asked an ant what he thought of man. I actually said, human being.
Does not exists, it said.
But, said I, you see him every day, you even crawl all over him. I am a man, too, did you know that?.
Does not exist, it repeated.
I tried again: but sureley you must have an idea…
I have no ideas, I am an ant for pete’s sake.
Me again: What about the nice things I spill all over the place, like sugar grains and dead flies.
I told you, it said: does not exist so don’t bother me with this kind of questioning.
Off it scurried with its fellow ants in search of food. Which I provide fps.
Relative to man, the ant is a giant considering the size of man to the sun, a minor star in a universe
cock-a-block with billions of stars. Yet, the sun rules our lives, no question about it. Sometimes too hot,often quite pleasant. It will still be there millions of years from now, time incomprehensible.
And we question the maker’s intentions.
An ant would be a wise place to start…

]]> By: Lenny Appadoo http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/stuartstobbs/2010/01/31/if-there-is-a-god-i-don%e2%80%99t-want-to-spend-eternity-with-him/comment-page-2/#comment-110258 Lenny Appadoo Wed, 03 Feb 2010 16:20:46 +0000 http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/stuartstobbs/2010/01/31/if-there-is-a-god-i-don%e2%80%99t-want-to-spend-eternity-with-him/#comment-110258 @ The Praetor "The alternative could be that there is actually a God, who has seen her suffering, while taking care of her sick husband, and in compassion He took her away to be at peace before her husband died, to spare her further emotional trauma." Yeah right, in fact god was so compassionate that he took another 100 000 plus lives in Haiti to accompany her to heaven. Yes, and just to underline his compassion further, he made sure that two kids were raped and that a 10-year-old was forced to watch her parents being murdered. But you know, this entity who is all powerful and all compassionate, all-seeing and all-knowing, somehow can never defend himself; always relies on grovelling humans to come up with the excuses for his behaviour. The classic case of "do as I say, not as I do." @ The Praetor

“The alternative could be that there is actually a God, who has seen her suffering, while taking care of her sick husband, and in compassion He took her away to be at peace before her husband died, to spare her further emotional trauma.”

Yeah right, in fact god was so compassionate that he took another 100 000 plus lives in Haiti to accompany her to heaven.

Yes, and just to underline his compassion further, he made sure that two kids were raped and that a 10-year-old was forced to watch her parents being murdered.

But you know, this entity who is all powerful and all compassionate, all-seeing and all-knowing, somehow can never defend himself; always relies on grovelling humans to come up with the excuses for his behaviour. The classic case of “do as I say, not as I do.”

]]> By: MLH http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/stuartstobbs/2010/01/31/if-there-is-a-god-i-don%e2%80%99t-want-to-spend-eternity-with-him/comment-page-2/#comment-110207 MLH Wed, 03 Feb 2010 11:54:56 +0000 http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/stuartstobbs/2010/01/31/if-there-is-a-god-i-don%e2%80%99t-want-to-spend-eternity-with-him/#comment-110207 For believers: God gave us free will. Rapists use it wrongly. Human misery is caused by humans with no conscience as to how they make others suffer. Death is not evil. It's there. You'd be surprised to realise that your mother's firend may just have preferred to go at the same time as her husband. It's lonely being the one left behind. My grandmother lived until she was 93 and wanted nothing so much than to join all her friends and relatives in death. For believers: God gave us free will. Rapists use it wrongly.
Human misery is caused by humans with no conscience as to how they make others suffer.
Death is not evil. It’s there. You’d be surprised to realise that your mother’s firend may just have preferred to go at the same time as her husband. It’s lonely being the one left behind.
My grandmother lived until she was 93 and wanted nothing so much than to join all her friends and relatives in death.

]]> By: Amanda http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/stuartstobbs/2010/01/31/if-there-is-a-god-i-don%e2%80%99t-want-to-spend-eternity-with-him/comment-page-2/#comment-110189 Amanda Wed, 03 Feb 2010 09:35:58 +0000 http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/stuartstobbs/2010/01/31/if-there-is-a-god-i-don%e2%80%99t-want-to-spend-eternity-with-him/#comment-110189 @Illuvatar. I followed your link. Peter Kreeft's 'explanation’ of evil is a classic Apologetics argument. “The unbeliever's problem is not just a soft head but a hard heart. And the good apologist knows how to let the heart lead the head as well as vice versa.” Any unbeliever knows that the heart is a pump which function is to pump blood through the body. Every single emotion whether it is fear, love, compassion etc is the result of neurons firing as well as chemicals in the human brain. Kreeft’s argument requires a massive ‘leap of faith’ and provides zero proof for God’s existence. “Faith means making a virtue out of not thinking. It’s nothing to brag about. And those who preach faith and enable it are intellectual slave holders, keeping mankind in bondage to fantasy and nonsense that has spawned and justified so much lunacy and destruction.” Bill Mayers. Kreeft being a Catholic cannot even agree with all the other Christians. He converted from on delusion to another! No wonder Christians have difficulty in convincing the unbelievers out there! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Kreeft @Illuvatar. I followed your link. Peter Kreeft’s ‘explanation’ of evil is a classic Apologetics argument.

“The unbeliever’s problem is not just a soft head but a hard heart. And the good apologist knows how to let the heart lead the head as well as vice versa.”

Any unbeliever knows that the heart is a pump which function is to pump blood through the body. Every single emotion whether it is fear, love, compassion etc is the result of neurons firing as well as chemicals in the human brain.

Kreeft’s argument requires a massive ‘leap of faith’ and provides zero proof for God’s existence.

“Faith means making a virtue out of not thinking. It’s nothing to brag about. And those who preach faith and enable it are intellectual slave holders, keeping mankind in bondage to fantasy and nonsense that has spawned and justified so much lunacy and destruction.” Bill Mayers.

Kreeft being a Catholic cannot even agree with all the other Christians. He converted from on delusion to another! No wonder Christians have difficulty in convincing the unbelievers out there!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Kreeft

]]> By: Vicky http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/stuartstobbs/2010/01/31/if-there-is-a-god-i-don%e2%80%99t-want-to-spend-eternity-with-him/comment-page-1/#comment-110170 Vicky Wed, 03 Feb 2010 07:51:12 +0000 http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/stuartstobbs/2010/01/31/if-there-is-a-god-i-don%e2%80%99t-want-to-spend-eternity-with-him/#comment-110170 i wish someday i would wake up and the would not be a mention of deity anyone of them. Now that would be a happy day. its just irritating, I seriously do not get why Grown, intelligent people believe in this garbage. I dont get it, everyday you see proof that there is no higher power but you still believe hayi suka man. i wish someday i would wake up and the would not be a mention of deity anyone of them. Now that would be a happy day. its just irritating, I seriously do not get why Grown, intelligent people believe in this garbage. I dont get it, everyday you see proof that there is no higher power but you still believe hayi suka man.

]]> By: Cuzzd http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/stuartstobbs/2010/01/31/if-there-is-a-god-i-don%e2%80%99t-want-to-spend-eternity-with-him/comment-page-1/#comment-110167 Cuzzd Wed, 03 Feb 2010 07:04:53 +0000 http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/stuartstobbs/2010/01/31/if-there-is-a-god-i-don%e2%80%99t-want-to-spend-eternity-with-him/#comment-110167 I would rather live believing in God and die findy ing out that I was wrong, than not believing in the one and only living God and then finding out I was wrong. Why when we kick God out of our school, goverments and lives, then blame Him when things go wrong...... I would rather live believing in God and die findy ing out that I was wrong, than not believing in the one and only living God and then finding out I was wrong.
Why when we kick God out of our school, goverments and lives, then blame Him when things go wrong……

]]> By: derek james http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/stuartstobbs/2010/01/31/if-there-is-a-god-i-don%e2%80%99t-want-to-spend-eternity-with-him/comment-page-1/#comment-110158 derek james Wed, 03 Feb 2010 06:36:39 +0000 http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/stuartstobbs/2010/01/31/if-there-is-a-god-i-don%e2%80%99t-want-to-spend-eternity-with-him/#comment-110158 There is no god and never has been. I am a card carrying and born again atheist, but am also a humanist who cares for 570 children! Christianity as Bertrand Russell said is a "preposterous and reprehensible religion" and the less said about islam the better. We are on our own and should care for each other without the damage caused by religions everywhere, Did god take great pleasure in killing 200 000 people in Haiti? She does not exist! There is no god and never has been. I am a card carrying and born again atheist, but am also a humanist who cares for 570 children! Christianity as Bertrand Russell said is a “preposterous and reprehensible religion” and the less said about islam the better. We are on our own and should care for each other without the damage caused by religions everywhere, Did god take great pleasure in killing 200 000 people in Haiti? She does not exist!

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