We say we want democracy — but we don’t seem to like it much when we see it. How else to interpret the breast-beating from commentators and some delegates here at Polokwane after the opening day of the ANC conference?
Most of us no doubt know by now that day one of Polokwane was a lively affair. Jacob Zuma supporters loudly sang and danced in his support, prompting more muted songs from Thabo Mbeki’s backers. Zuma delegates booed and heckled leadership figures they do not like, and they gave ANC chair Mosiuoa Lekota a particularly hard time, challenging several of his rulings and unsubtly suggesting that he be replaced by making the sign that football fans on the terraces use when they want an under-performing player replaced. They also demanded that the votes for ANC office be counted manually rather then electronically because, presumably, they worried that a computer count was particularly prone to error.
All of this has prompted a veritable wave of breast-beating from some ANC high-ups, but also from earnest representatives of the analysing classes, about the plague of disrespect and ill-discipline that has beset the ANC and which may well doom its future. Most seem agreed that we are dealing with a nasty new form of thuggery that comes pretty close to mob rule.
Really? I was watching carefully yesterday, either from the live feed or on the congress floor, and I saw nothing that even resembled mob rule. Yes, things were a little rough at times, but no more so than at any vigorous, democratic meeting where a great deal is at stake.
A little booing and heckling is fine at democratic meetings, as long as you let everyone speak. I saw no attempt to shut anyone up — on the contrary, President Thabo Mbeki was allowed to read his very long political report in almost total silence despite the fact that a chunk of it accused the Zuma delegates of threatening the soul and survival of the ANC.
And there is certainly nothing wrong at any democratic meeting with singing songs in support of your candidate, as long as, again, you do not do this to deny others their rights. I saw no sign that people were trying to shut others up.
Most importantly, not only are challenges from the floor allowed at democratic meetings, they are often a key sign of how democratic a meeting really is. An organisation whose members let their leaders decide entirely how meetings are run is not one in which members are holding their leaders to account and ensuring that they serve them. The fact that this is the first ANC conference since its unbanning in 1990 where delegates challenged decisions from the floor does not show what is at wrong at Polokwane — it shows what has been wrong at all the other meetings.
I was not horrified about the challenges to leaders from the floor — on the contrary, I was impressed by the degree to which those who made them were eager to honour the base principles of democracy, that everyone is entitled to a say, and that all sides should be heard and disputes settled by majority vote. They were not trying to get round democratic rules — they were insisting on making them work.
This was not mob rule. In the main, it was active, democratic participation, precisely what the ANC’s preoccupation with public displays of unity has denied its conferences for the past 17 years. If the Zuma delegates are now in the majority in the ANC, and this is how they intend to act at future meetings, the ANC may well be in better democratic health than it has been for a very long time.
It is not hard to see why the ANC old guard did not like what they saw on day one. They are used to conferences where people keep their differences out of the public eye, when they air them at all, and where leaders are treated with great deference, whether they deserve it or not. They are horrified at the possible birth of a new ANC in which members insist on making their leaders serve them, rather than publicly doffing their caps to those in charge.
But why do our commentators fall for the illusion that democracy in action is threatening? Two radio analysts this morning literally fell to bemoaning the future of the ANC because, they told us in horror, the Mbeki people were so horrified by the songs of the Zuma people that, horrors, they were planning to sing back!
We probably haven’t seen enough real democracy to know what it looks like. People who continually wring their hands at the unseemliness of it all seem to think that democracy is a system in which high-minded people elegantly exchange polite opinions about matters of real substance. Most of the time, democracy is not that at all — it is a system in which normal people get off their chests whatever they feel strongly about at the time in a way that respects the rights of others to do the same. When people feel strongly, they are bound to express themselves strongly — which is fine, as long as they stick by the rules that give everyone a change to say and decide.
And democracy remains by far the best system of government because, while allowing normal people to express what is on their minds is often loud and messy, it is a great deal better than forcing people to suppress what they feel — until it bursts out in violence.
Another reason for the negative comment may be that, for all our democratic rhetoric, most of us still see leaders as people to be honoured and deferred to, not as our servants who we are meant to hold to account. The sooner we see people who contradict their leaders as the advance guard of democracy, not as uncouth louts, the quicker will we prepare ourselves to live in a real democracy.
Polokwane’s opening day confirmed that a new ANC is being born. We don’t know what it will look like — we don’t even know whether the democratic enthusiasm we saw there was a sign that people want to govern their own movement or whether they want to hand over their future to a new charismatic leader.
But, if the new ANC is going to look something like Polokwane’s day one — a movement in which members set the agenda and leaders serve them, in which people who feel strongly can express themselves, and in which differences are thrashed out in open debate and contest for votes, rather than in dark rooms or not at all, then it could yet go down as the day when democracy in the ANC really came of age.
And, since the ANC may well dominate our politics for a while yet, whatever happens here at Polokwane, it is not impossible that December 16 2007 could be remembered as the day when our democracy became deeper and more real.
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61 Responses to “No, dear, that’s not mob rule — it’s called democracy”
Democracy in the west is vastly different to democracy in the third world (Africa) Yes it is good that everyone says what they have to say except that in Africa, if your neighbour does not agree with you, he eithers hits you with a knobkerrie, stabs you or puts a bullet through your head. I reckon you’ve got it all wrong, this is the beginning of South Africa turning into just another banana African country.
I deplore the manner in which you write about our President, because that is what he is. Your lack of respect is shocking and he deserves better. He has led SA peacefully through a very difficult time. He is not perfect but his successes have been greater than his failures. Zuma is going to do whatever he gets told to do by the people who got him there. A stooge- just like the old homeland leaders. Remember your column because you will rue the day when Mbeki is no longer our President.
Dr. Friedman, how were you able to make all these brilliant observations when the rest of us were busy stabbing ourselves in the knee with blunt pens to keep awake during the president’s speech…I mean the president’s public reading?
Dear Sue, you sound very eurocentric and forgetting conveniently that the western world is very much involved in many of Africa’s problem. I am sure you are living in a walled house in an upcale residential surburb, unaware that the peace you are mentioning is not felt at all in the townships. The majority of these struggling folks are the ones who cast their votes come election time with the hope to see a difference in their lives. Obviously they have not and are showing their contempt to the President at the ballot box, in a democratic way. What is wrong with that?
As a foreigner who loves South Africa, I tremble when I consider what is currently happening in Polokwane. My fellow foreigners tremble as well, with laughter. Even the presenter on Sky News cracked a smile when she read that Zuma washed himself to not be infected with AIDS. The laughter among the average Westerner, however, just about shatters my ear drums.
“Africans, how stupid are they? I thought South Africa was different, but it seems that they love destroying their own country just as much as the rest of the continent.” Comments like these are always combined with that awful laughter of Western superiority, the kind that gives me a headache. As I am trembling with fear, I really can not be dealing with a headache as well.
The headache gets worse when I think of what these “superior beings” are saying. I can not fault them. It is ludicrous to have a man like Zuma chosen as the ANC President (and future President of the Nation). A man whose favourite song is about his machine gun (and we all know how he wants to use it), a man who is already more of a polemicist than Mugabe was for many a year… how can rational people choose him? Are Africans (as thinketh the West) really that stupid? No, but they are that desperate!
And thus the desperation of the deprived will again bring a despot to the throne. Soon the deprived will note that their situation is no better than it used to be, but now they have a crazed ruler, who brings desperation and devastation to all his people. Say what you will about Mbeki not being a man of the people, but at least he has kept the economy going strong, he has secured peace and he has allowed people of all colours to call South Africa their home.
Democracy is indeed allowing a new ANC to take shape. Democracy allows the desperate to choose their machine gun swinging “Hero of the People” as their New President. Desperate people do not have the luxury of making wise decisions. JZ and his crew, however, have the luxury of using the desperate to secure that the “NEW ANC” will be able to shape a “New South Africa”. A South Africa, where Zuma can use his machine gun (on we know who) to the detriment of the entire nation.
The more things change the more they stay the same?
Quoted from Adam Smith’s Moral Sentiment published in 1790 referring to politicians.
“They have little modesty; are often assuming, arrogant and presumptuous; great admirers of themselves, and great contemners of other people….Their excessive presumption, foundered upon their own excessive self admiration, dazzles the multitude….The frequent, and often wonderful, success of the most ignorant quacks and imposters …sufficiently demonstrate how easily the multitude are imposed upon by the most extravagant and groundless pretensions.”
David David David! Eirocentricity or not.The conference played itself out. A space has been created for debate and the approach is different, but the objective will be realised. People are tired of not voicing their anger or displeasure under threat that ruled prior to Polokwane. The stage is set, let the games continue. Democracy of a special kind man. I do not think u suffer from colonialism of a spcial type, but the observation by Friedman are true. Wath closely why credentials report will be a headache.
What does strike me as funny,ironic and yes co-incidental is that this happened on december the 16 the day of reconciliation or as it was know in the now old but not forgotten South Sfrica the day of the vow. why would it be that a day that has brought a change in the history of old SA has suck a important meaning for the new SA is this yet again a vital sign that great and important things are yet to come let us be positive that this is so
While I dont believe that singing and heckling necessarily mean a descent into the anarchy that some seem to be foretelling I think we need to take a step back and relook at the scene before us. In a more developed democracy TM would not be seeking a 3rd term, JZ would not be seen as Presidential material. Combine this with the hoax email fiasco, the sacking of Routledge, the protection offered to Selebi and Tshabala-Msimang and the incidents at Polokwane and people have reason to be worried.
Ours is far from a developed democracy even with the presence of a ballot box.
Democracy is very fashionable, and its advantages that Friedman mentions are certainly noteworthy. But one of its greatest drawbacks is related to the question of ‘mob rule’ in the ANC… to perpetrate yet another quote, Winston Churchill said: “The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.”
Democracy is not an end in itself but a means to an end, and for a liberal that end is Liberty. Liberty is primary, and the precise political arrangement is relatively unimportant as long as Liberty is preserved. It would be better to have a dictator who preserves Liberty (i.e. does not limit freedoms unnecessarily, but uses his/her overwhelming force only when required) than a democratically elected president whose election is likely to impose purposeful and unpurposed curtailments on Liberty, whether through withdrawal or stagnation of foreign direct investment, judicial misadventures, ‘mob rule’, or the veiled instructions of corporate or communist interests (whichever really applies).
Sure, what’s happening in Polokwane is part of the democratic process - jeering, heckling, lobbying, tight electoral races, etc etc (not sure where the dancing fits in). But I think, Dr Friedman, that no-one is under any illusions about how fragile democracy can be. Democracy alone is not a sufficient condition for peace, stability, development; democracy by itself does not ensure that democracy survives. So simply saying “look it’s all democratic, so what are you complaining about?” misses the point.
We have hugely ill-informed voters (how else could one describe people on the verge of voting in a man like Zuma?). How many people on the conference floor actually understand the complexities of monetary policy or international trade or industry subsidisation? Yet these branch members will, presumably, be the backbone of a Zuma parliament and a Zuma cabinet. We saw bureaucratic chaos over the first two days of the conference - Zuma’s supporters couldn’t even manage to sort out basic parameters for the conference without buggering it up. Our own version of democracy entitles the people to make decisions once every five years — yet with this lot, one can’t help feeling that 2014 will be much, much too late.
Perhaps there IS a legitimate argument to be had that Mbeki has stifled development by taking the economy too far to the right, but you would have to be insane to believe that the people in that tent in Limpopo have the skills, intellect and foresight to understand just how to engineer a developmentally-orientated social democracy. A decade of corruption, mismanagement and inflation surely awaits us?
This is a difficult time for ANC. They have to chose between democracy and dictatorsip. Unfortunately, the embattled Zuma represents democracy, while election of Mbeki will signal creation of a Dynasty within ANC.
Democracy is not about laws. Anyone who negates the postulates of democracy on the pretences that the ANC Constitution does not cap terms for its presidents, is not a democrat. Life-long presidents throughout Africa have overtime used the same line of argument as Pres. Mbeki.
The meeting point between democracy and dectatorship is so fine that many countries never realised when they actually crossed over to dictatorship. I hold ANC very highly to have noticed the line and have categorically rejected the temptation, against the odds of having only Zuma as the option out of the planned Mbeki dictatorship.
Further, it is an insult to ANC to imply that the man of Mbeki stature should be considered as the only person capable of looking after the ANC.
Beware ANC, dictators never go home. Learn from Mandela he was a democrat. Look in Botswana and see why its so different from the rest of Africa. Do not fear change lest you fall for dictatorship.
Are you trying to tell us that, all in all, democracy is about disrespect,intolerance, howling and lack of reasoning? It is an unfalsifiable fact that, agreeing to disagree is one of the element of democracy but, at times, how it is done can be contrary to what it tries to achieve. ANC memebers, quite often, call themselves ‘disciplined cadres’ of the movement. I agree with you Steve, “Polokwane’s opening day confirmed that a new ANC is being born. We don’t know what it will look like”
Your observations should also be taken in the context of the doom sayers who could not see Tuesday beyond Polokwane.
I was also ther and for the first time I have come to really appreciate the ANC for what it is. At some point after meeting both camps and I was in a prfect situation of getting the best opinions ans people were talking to me from the point that I was a journalist. The pro President group, did indeed find the vociferous youth quite unruly, while the Nr Zuma group did indeed enjoy the democratic expression of the youth. To tell the truth, it not just the youth , but the whole of the Zuma camp.
But to show that it was real democracy, for which I praise both sides; it was like the fight of two venomous snakes; who fight without squirting poison at each other.
There was not the slightest suggestion that tese people were going to fight.
After, we were kicked out; I am told the true ANC tradition, of finding one another in the face of differences was at play in that meeting.
I have seen parliamentarians fighting in china. There was nothing of that nature in that meeting. I can almost predict, like these ANC people are saying , that they will emerge united. I have seen the African National Congress in action. And I wish this spirit of talkingwhattheylike comtinues
“During the decades it was an underground movement fighting apartheid, the ANC took pride in presenting a united front, and the top party post hadn’t been publicly contested in 55 years. That makes what elsewhere might be seen as the typical hurly-burly of democracy seem shocking”. PUBLISHED ON CNN WEBSITE.
December 16 could ‘go down as the day when democracy in the ANC really came of age’ … Well, yes, perhaps that is true - let us hope so.
December 16 as the day ‘when our democracy became deeper and more real’ … No, that does not follow.
SA is a monocracy. Developments in the ANC have no necessary connection with what is happening or will happen in future in the way government works, still less in society, though hopefully these developments are some kind of reflection of changes in South African’s attitudes.
But whatever the outcome in Polokwane it says very little about any imagined ‘direction of democracy’. There is no such high road and this or any other situation could easily go into reverse.
Consider, for instance, what has followed Mugabe losing his referendum in 2000.
Ironically, the strongest sign we have here that ‘democracy’ may be ‘developing’ comes from Sue Wicks’ letter. She boldly takes the president’s side in spite of what many who are working to get him out find a terrible record - and taking different sides is certainly the first step out of monocracy.
Dear David and scared fellow foreigners firstly i dont think there is anyone who forces you to be here and subject yourself to a terrifying Zuma rule and the “stupid africans”.While am not xenophobic, David and fellow foreigners u are very opinionated and ill informed about the ANC and very subjective in your analysis afica and afican people and if you so afraid of a Zuma rule why dont you go back(from where you came from) as it is we have a lot of foreigners its unbearable and if you are so ‘WISE” than the zuma supporters why dont you go to where there are your ideal leaders and settle there and obviously you left your country because of democracy issues, dictatorship(thats if you came from an african counrty) etc but @ least the so called “stupid zuma supporters” are going to democratically elect their own leader and its vey arrogant of you to call africans stupid and get one thing strait Susan and David(who sound racist as well) Thabo Mbeki doesnt own any policies those policies are from the “stupid africans(anc) so he was just a face as a leader so dont glorify people unnnecesarily @the xpense of the membership infact you are insulting the capacity of those members and in the same way the gave Thabo the mandate to lead, they will give it to JZ (wether you agree or not i doesnt matter) to proceed with the policies of the ANC and as for you Ross you are gullible and ignorant for the fact that the media showed sections of Zuma supporters doesnt mean the “third term brigade” was sitting down silently as victims they were equally disruptive so if you cant be in the same space or county as Zuma and his illiterate supporters its simple LEAVE for Europe where you will find peace and stability and leave us fools to wallow in our foolishness and we would rather vote for an illiterate Zuma (who fot for the democracy that we africans, black specifically enjoy)than some british product or even brutal apartheid leaders who were educated and yet foolish and ignorant when it came to the plight of black people, You dont have to like Zuma or his supporters (not that it matters , i must emphasize) but to insult africans or members of the ANC because of their views and support is narrow and quite unacceptable, so while its democratic to crique leaders and have personal opinions about issues you dont understand or matters of an organisation you are not part of , its also democratic for people to choose Zuma, period… so live(leave) with it coz u will not wish him away
The rest of Africa is watching. RSA as a big brother is now taking a decision that will soon become culture. Russia has had its president mutate but in power, thats not a good example, pls do otherwise.
ANC should lead by example and reject dictatorship rising its ugly head inside the most respected movement of our Continent. Democracy ensures that PEOPLE retain their right to self determination in real terms.
No, Dr Friedman, this cannot be called democracy. Why is the decision that the ANC is making at Polokwane so profoundly important? The only answer I can see is that it is because we have all assumed that whoever is chosen today will be the next president of South Africa. In a true democracy the outcome of the next presidential election would not be so certain that it is universally taken for granted. It does not matter that you have declared the proceedings at Polokwane to be the process of democracy when South Africa as a whole cannot be seen as democratic when there is effectively only one political party.
If South Africa were really a democracy, the decisions the ANC made internally wouldn’t be the deciding factor in the fate of the nation.
What is needed is a strong opposition.
Vuyo: your post is a prime example of how the Winston Churchill quote still stands.
Try and accept viewpoints that are different from yours, and on the way you might learn to use the “full stop” (aka the ‘period’ or ‘.’). In the process, you might learn why some people who don’t like it here may still not be able (or want) to leave.
I am one of the lucky ones, and am taking uncle Charles’s advice and packing for Perth. I am taking my skills and my family’s skills and taxes with me. I will be leaving you (personally) to “wallow in your foolishness”, while resting assured that I will not be providing any foreign aid to you in any way, shape or form.
You’re the one making this bed, tho you haven’t yet realised you’ll be the one lying in it. And when the jackboots come for you in the middle of the night, because someone accused you (falsely or not, by then it won’t matter) of not toeing the party line, and you can’t even buy cooking oil for love nor money, by all means feel free to blame me for abandoning you to the consequences of your own decisions.
Thanks Stephen - Not having a TV at home I have to wait for a working day to get my news updates online. On arriving in the office this morning I’m hearing what a mess, what a fiasco etc.
I just knew I needed an unbiased opinion to get the right picture. When will we get the final count??
Thanks to everyone (I mean *everyone*) for commenting I enjoy your passionate responses.
To Proff Friendman: You have argued this line before and I have agreed with you that if we call our selves’ democrats then we ought to be supportive of democratic processes even if they produce results that may not be what we wish for or want/ed. I have however changed my mind. I do not believe anymore that what is happening in Polokwane is an exercise in democracy. What we are witnessing there is a bunch of people who are opposed to Mbeki for the sake of opposing. They have no ideology of their own. No better government proposal. No answers as to how they will fund their free education or any of their promises. No answers as to how they will deal with the nationalization issue. No answers as to what they will do with inflation targeting. No answers for anything. Kicking Mbeki is their primary focus; no thought is spared as to how they will run the country. Who will be in their cabinet and with what skills. They do all this in the name of democracy. And that Proff cannot be right.
I am all for us making our own “mistakes”. I am sure that mature democracies like the US have made mistakes in their +100 years of democracy. The US will see another Clinton in the Oval Office after a Bush. There is a generation of Americans who do not known any president who is not a Bush or a Clinton. And that cannot be “true” democracy or can it?
Thembani Mbadlanyana is right when he says “Polokwane’s opening day confirmed that a new ANC is being born. We don’t know what it will look like”.
We can only hope. But we cannot leave our lives on hope and hope alone. That is why the madness in Polokwane is not acceptable!
Good article. I hope that this means that ANC branches that have been somewhat moribund will come to life again. By the way I think people who are mocking what is happening in the ANC and in Polokwane are being very negative and arrogant. Western democracies are not without troubles, for example how many times has the Italian government collapsed, and then reconstited itself since the second world war? What we need to do is improve service delivery at all levels of government, and encourage public debate and participation at all levels.
Nic
But that is point – never did the Zanu-PF faithful turn on Bob. So this may be a very positive sign for our democracy.
The concern is as pointed out by T.Kwetane – no policies whatsoever.
The other concern is that JZ who has been treated like a “houseboy” by Schabir – rolled out to impress/intimidate any potential business partners – has debts to many apparently shady characters.
Your explanations show an undertone of having an axe to grind with the old ANC. This is sad because this movement is losing the liberation status where people act, and have acted selflessly. You almost show tacit support for the kind on engagment we saw in polakwane!
While I can’t say that a residential visa for Thailand is completely out of the cards, much of my fear and dread has been (successfully) quelled by Friedman’s piece…It is my hope that what you are defending, Dr Friedman, as the dawn of a new ANC and a reinvigoration of democracy will indeed be just that and that should JZ make blunders, these same voices will skip to another tune, brandishing new weapons and sirens of despot destruction…
What an interesting article! You know what Prof. Friedman? You have made my day. Democracy should allow people to express themselves. As a black African I grew up in rural area where people were using music as a way of expression. Some researchers are using music as one of the techniques for understanding people.
Even in most African weddings you still find that people that come from bride’s side might sing songs that sound as if they attack groom’s side, which might not necessarily be true. For someone who does not understand African weddings, it is terror. For people who understand, it is part of excitement. Even in school sports you would find the same thing.
Unfortunately I’m not in Polokwane, I mainly rely on TV on what is happening there. But I find TV veeery misleading most of the time. For instance, on E.tv news yesterday (around 19:10) Debra said that tensions are increasing in Polokwane, but visuals were just showing people singing and enjoying themselves.C’mon Debra! I was very disappointed!!
I strongly feel that if we are really serious about this democracy, we should learn to respect that people have different ways of expressing themselves. We should not try to DOMESTICATE PEOPLE. Democracy is not only about LOVING EACH OTHER but is also about acknowledging and appreciating diversity and being prepared to co-exist.
May the spirit of democracy that has been shown in Polokwane be spread to all spheres of our lives. May those who win in Polokwane acknowledge that they carry the mandate of serving this beautiful country of ours. May those who don’t win in Polokwane respect the processes of democracy and acknowledge that they are still our brothers and sisters and work together with us in building this nation. May Mbheki and Zuma shake and hold hands after the conference as a sign of acknowledging that South African issues are bigger than each of them working in isolation.
Zuma or Mbheki you are my brother and I need and respect you. Thank you Proffesor. You really made my day. Alluta Continue!!
Qoute: “Democracy in the west is vastly different to democracy in the third world (Africa) Yes it is good that everyone says what they have to say except that in Africa, if your neighbour does not agree with you, he eithers hits you with a knobkerrie, stabs you or puts a bullet through your head. I reckon you’ve got it all wrong, this is the beginning of South Africa turning into just another banana African country.” Sue Wicks
It is quite amazing how people like Sue always of dream of seeing South Africa failing. Quite scary! Good luck Sue on your predictions.
The booing and heckling and singing to intimidate and spoil debate in programmed fashion is characteristic of supporters of some gentleman north of our borders, those who follow events north of us will know just how similar it went.
What in the name of hell did youth Buti Maimela mean when asked his take on the President’s speech, that what Mr Mbeki had oulined as the work done was a little too late?
To change their vote not based on facts or what?
What makes Vavi think jobs will be created faster than in the Mbeki era?
How will JZ handle our friends and comrades the Chinese? Mbeki is the only President on this continent who has been wary of the new world economic order.
thank you prof for an honest analysis, the ivy league brigade can’t stand the peasants leading them,afterall they elected themselves not this hooligans who embarasses them by naming the national soccer team bafana bafana
Idu Bol Hiom: “Is it a coincidence that most of JZ’s backers and supporters are socialists or communists…and most of Mbeki’s supporters are capitalist…???”
How did you get there? Eastern Cape and North West are the poorest provinces in the country and they voted Mbeki!
Gauteng is on the other hand (and KZN to an extent) the capitalist engine of the country and they voted Zuma. Shaiks are capitalist and they are Zuma’s friends. Blade leaves in some posh surburb someweher in Jozi. How capitalist can you be? Zweilinzima Vavi earns many times more money than the workers he represents and I’m sure he is eyeing a post as a cabinet minister (R1M salary a year). Did someone say he even know how to use a credit card?!
Vavi used a credit card he wasn’t supposed to use. Zuma is a tried and tested bourgeois! All the overdraft!!! (Would someone please “loan” me R3M to pay my debts with the greedy bankers!) May be its Tokyo who is confusing you. Or maybe its Motlante, no wait its Phosa. Or is it Kunene? You get the point.
The people have spoken thats all that matters. If Mbeki was such a great president he would have easily defeated Zuma. The reality is he was a great president for the small black middle class, black empowerment players, big business and yes economically many white poeple. However, the majority of people in this nation do not fall in the above categories and live in abject poverty. This big majority did not benefit from the economic growth that south africa experienced over the years, they were left behind by the Mbeki train.
To Mbeki’s astonishment, he learnt that this majority can make you or brake you. People like Sue Wicks and many members of the black middle class supported him but I doubt that they actually went out to vote for him or campaign for him, thats the price you pay when the members of your gallery are to high class to go into the trenches for you.
The Mbeki camp can only blame themselves for loosing to an opponent as scandal ridden as Zuma. This should have been a TKO for Mbeki or any other politician worth their salt. But Mbeki is not a politician, never was and never will be. He failed to understand the importance of personality and presentation. You can have all the policy and visionary ideas in the world, but they count for nothing if you do not know how to talk to your people.
Mbeki has learnt that in a democracy, a leader will always be held accountable for their actions. For last couple of days the members of the ANC dragged Mbeki through the fire for all those years he refused to give them a voice or platform to speak. I hope Zuma learns from his opponents mistakes.
On the money Prof! I live in the US and am happy to see democracy in the ANC grow deeper. As a capitalist I was against Zuma but the democratic process has made me respect the ANC even more. How I wish I was home to experience it live.
Sandile Mbulawa on December 18th, 2007 at 11:13 pm
Heartfelt congratulations to the thousands of members and delegates of the African National Congress for electing a new leader. An overwhelming victory for Mr Zuma and his new team has defined what democracy is going to be in South Africa. The membership of the ANC have done themselves and our country proud.
From all the opinions expressed here, it is clear that no one really knows what the future holds. Opinions vary from optimism to pessimism. My question is, does one want to risk backing this unclear future with what is essentially one’s whole life? I love SA, but I have been seriously considering heading off to some stable country and spending the requisite three years there to obtain a foreign passport. Idea being that I can come back here afterwards and give SA my best shot because I believe in this country and I desperately want it to succeed. But in the event that it fails, and although I think that most likely outcome is one of success, I don’t really want to risk everything on that. So a foreign passport and some offshore investments seem a pragmatic and sensible idea, since who knows what will happen with Zuma at the helm. I’ve heard good things about him and obviously also bad things. He is strategic when pursuing personal gain. But how strategic is he when leading the ANC or the country? No one can answer that question. He has also displayed such crass stupidity in a number of situations, that I wonder whether a leader with no education is what we really need. But again, who knows!? Maybe he’ll be great. Mandela was fantastic and he was a initially viewed as a terrorist (at least by the whites, obviously he was viewed differently by the non-whites). Like Zuma, no one know Mandela’s capabilities up front in terms of running a country. Difference is that Mandela is a highly educated man and Zuma isn’t. Zuma has virtually no education. Which is a bit alarming to say the least.
[…] made by the Apartheid regime. He also pointed me to a post on Thought Leader titled "No, dear, that’s not mob rule — it’s called democracy" in which Stephen Friedman talks about how the Polokwane conference is an illustration of […]
Zimbabwe is what it is precisely because the sort of thing that happened at Polokwane never happened in Zanu PF. Mugabe has never been elected in a Zanu PF election and Zanu PF has never won a free and fair election in Zimbabwe. The moment democracy dies in a ruling party is the moment democract dies in a country. So what we saw is unprecedented.
Some of the comments posted are appalling, and give REAL reason to be alarmed. Steven is offering us a well considered insight into the proceedings at Polokwane, and some of you presume to know MORE about what happened there, as well as what the future holds. At times like these we have to be very careful of judging a situation based solely on media “hype” and the outcome of all those nauseating dinner party discussions on the succession race, our inevitable plummet into a Zimbabwe situation etc etc. For goodness sake (the likes of David, Ross etc etc) get over yourselves, try to at least disguise your racism and get INFORMED. Only once you’ve done that, can you really make informed comment. Steven’s column is one of many that illustrate that the situation isn’t quite as simple (or catastrophic) as one’s imagination leads you to believe.
We used to say ‘Power to the people!’and then we got it!
Now any President who forgets this, no matter his achievements, deserves to go.
No matter also what the general opinion is amongst the self-consciously wise bourgeoisie, the ANC electorate has just shown it is the country’s greatest asset. They are not only the best in the country, they are also world class. Yes they must keep Zuma on his toes and I believe they will but it would be better if there were more amongst the bourgeoisie who identified with them. There are too many bleeding hearts in SA and let us face it they tend to dominate the media to the detriment of the country. Mbeki seems to regard this as a problem too.
MidaFo: “the ANC electorate has just shown it is the country’s greatest asset” [How so???]…”Yes they must keep Zuma on his toes” [How are they going to do this?].
MidaFo assumes that which he needs to prove. How are these Zuma supporters the “greatest assets”? How is conducting elections using lies and false promises progressive? When were cults/individual worshippers ever progressive and/or an asset to a country?!
The Zuma voters have no story, no ideology and no plan. Their agenda was to get rid of Mbeki; they have achieved that, but what else?
Anthony said: “For goodness sake (the likes of David, Ross etc etc) get over yourselves, try to at least disguise your racism and get INFORMED.”
My response: Anthony you are crying for the moon! I don’t expect people like David and Ross to stop racism. We should just learn to co-exist with. I think it is safer to pray for a stronger back, than praying for a lighter load. Maybe they will change in 2090!
Good post Kwetane.
But we have no choice. Procedure in a case like this takes precedence over soothsaying and moral outrage. Accepting victory on the strength of procedure binds the winner with responsibility. It is procedure and those who adhere to it that I admire. Procedure will continue to be king in the light of Polokwane. While politics adheres to procedure it remains positive. The man is not the issue. It was a victory for politics.
Let us now see what Zuma and his supporters can do in this understanding.
I feel Mbeki is to be given some credit here and is thinking the same sane way.
Thanks for all this - the interest is very encouraging. I am really inclined to leave you all to continue debating but T Kwetane asks for a response and, since this is the first time I have had here at Polokwane to join in, I will do so very briefly.
There are obviously quite a few people who feel that any advantage we gain from robust democracy in the ANC is outweighed by the fact that a man they do not trust won the ANC election. I think that the fact that ANC delegates have signalled to their leaders that they are not in office for as long as they want to be and that they can be voted out is far more important than who they elected. What kind of president of either the ANC or the country Zuma would make is to me unclear. But, even if he is not who we need, I think that the fact that leadership has changed in a free vote outweighs doubts about Zuma the man. I have become convinced that even well-meaning and very competent leadership groups begin to become disasters if they stay around too long. I think there probably is nothing more certain to decay politics than this and so I think that uncertainty or seeing someone elected who is not ideal is a price worth paying for changing those in power.
As for those who still see the majority of delegates here at Polokwane as an unruly mob, I invite you to think about a situation in which ‘the mob’ has been in charge for five days but no-one has been hurt and no-one has been prevented from speaking their mind. I wish all mobs were like this.
1. Democratic process doesn’t necessarily ensure the survival of democracy.
2. You have to be ill-informed to vote for Jacob Zuma.
3. Zuma’s supporters think, erroneously, that socialism is a fix to South Africa’s problems.
4. There was, at times, bureaucratic chaos in Polokwane, engineered by Zuma’s supporters.
5. We only have elections once every 5 years.
6. Zuma and his cronies on the left will bring corruption, mismanagement and inflation.
and also that…
7. What happened in Polokwane was democratic.
8. In some respects Mbeki took the economy too far to the right, and there is indeed an urgent need for redistribution.
Anthony and Bheka Mkhize, how the hell do you come to the conclusion, then, from that, that I’m “racist”? Where have I said, or even implied, that any of this has ANYTHING to do with race? I guess it’s easier to simply throw around terms of abuse than actually engage in debate.
Vuyo also managed to conclude that I was “gullible and ignorant” because I ignored the fact that Mbeki’s supporters were being just as disruptive as JZ’s. But the point I was making, Vuyo, wasn’t that Mbeki’s supporters weren;t disruptive, or indeed that Zuma’s supporters were especially disruptive. I actually have no problem with ‘disruptive’ per se. A bit of booing and jeering and laughing is always welcome in politics. What I said was that Zuma’s supporters, and in particular the ANCYL, went about creating a lot of the BUREAUCRATIC chaos. An obvious example was the laboured deliberation over voting processes. I think that this is a sign of things to come. You might not agree. I’m not sure how media coverage has anything to do with it.
Quote: “I am one of the lucky ones, and am taking uncle Charles’s advice and packing for Perth. I am taking my skills and my family’s skills and taxes with me. I will be leaving you (personally) to “wallow in your foolishness”, while resting assured that I will not be providing any foreign aid to you in any way, shape or form.” Jonathan
My comment: Bye Jonathan. We will really ‘Miss’ you
Quote: “What I said was that Zuma’s supporters, and in particular the ANCYL, went about creating a lot of the BUREAUCRATIC chaos. An obvious example was the laboured deliberation over voting processes. I think that this is a sign of things to come. You might not agree. I’m not sure how media coverage has anything to do with it.” ross
My comment: Ross, you need to be careful how you label situations. What ’sophisticated and educated’ people like Ross might call ‘creating a lot of the BUREAUCRATIC chaos’ democracy loving people might call ‘unsophisticated and uneducated people’s willingness to be involved’ in most of the processes of the conference. It quite amazing that we always preach ‘POWER TO THE PEOPLE’ but when people try to exercise that power we say they are ‘chaotic’.
To add to Prof. Friedman’s point, credit should be given to ‘Zuma camp’ and ‘Mbheki camp’ for not resorting to any violence when expressing their different views. I am 120% proud of you guys. I wish you could realise that the next step is for you to unite and collaborate in making South Africa country for all.
This comment isnt about Stevens piece because there is really nothing to add to what is a well reasoned and insightful argument. Rather, my sadness is about the negative comments from mostly white respondents who need to find in the ANC Conference signs that confirm their racist prejudices about the inability of black people to rule. It must be indeed incredibly difficult for them to even begin to acknowledge that the ANC has, through all its travails, has managed to avoid the split they were all hoping for. They now cling to the other fantasy that the ascent of Zuma to the Presidency will result in the ultimate destruction of the ANC. The truth of the matter is that Jacob Zuma is committed to the unity of the ANC in a way that Mbeki isnt. Note that Zuma, in all his travails over the last 7 years, never turned his back on the organisation, never blamed the organisation for his troubles when it would have been very easy to do so. The Polokwane Conference was simply that of an organisations members reasserting their primacy over a recalcitrant, arrogant and absurdly out of touch leadership. The challenge is whether the organisation will be able to maintain this democratic momentum.
Amazing, it seems, that for some in South Africa, the voices, the shouting, the plights for change were first heard in Polokwane! Where were they when Khutsong was burning? When cities and municipalities were trashed? When massive strike was staged in even essential services? The mistake was to dismiss these as acts of barbarism, that would be dealt with by law and order…No. Polokwane is the culmination of all of these. the voices and shouts of mothers fed up with seeing their children go to bed hungry in a country that promissed better life for all after sacrificing so much. For some it was a brother, for others a husband or even a daughter as the TRC revealed. This is no fiction for them, might be good reading material or dinner table talk for the middle class (black and white), removed from it all in the suburbs, but my brothers and sisters, it is real for them and it is time to sober up to their reality. For no amount of labelling will change the course of their revendications, their claims written in sweat and blood. Had i our you been in their shoes, I doubt it would have been different. It is not a white or black thing, for every revolution in the world has been a noisy affair. Remember the French and other revolutions? Heads of nobility rolled under the guillotine! From it came the “republique”, freedom, equality, fraternity! Polokwane saw no blood. Yet. The people’s claim must be settled to avoid the guillotine, blood, history tells us. But, halas, human being are not good in learnig from history, so the same mistakes repeat themselves.
So South Africa is on a democratic course, indeed, but the outcome of which will be determined not much by the amount of shouting and shoving in conferences but by the attitudes of the haves in the society post-Polokwane. The message has been delivered, loud and clear. Thinking that the message is directed to President Mbeki as an individual is very myopic for he represents in the eyes of the rebelling masses, a system that created the haves and worsened the lot of the have nots, in other words you and I. How will we react to the discomfort of the proposed changes that may avoid bloodshed or if in disareement, forced exile for those who can afford to leave the country? How can we be part of the solution, since the revolution is on our doorstep and there is no turning back? Because it will feed on the Polokwane victory and the next push is likely to be more bolder, much louder, may be even bloodier (God forbid)…Clinging on what we have now, is a sure recipy for losing it all. Sharing and compassion is the only viable option, but it needs personal commitment and sacrifice. Time for the haves to be patriotic and do the right thing, for their children’s and grand children’s sake!
As for those who still see the majority of delegates here at Polokwane as an unruly mob, I invite you to think about a situation in which ‘the mob’ has been in charge for five days but no-one has been hurt and no-one has been prevented from speaking their mind. I wish all mobs were like this.
I may be bloging this late, BUT I CANNOT HELP IT; this was a 100% INPUT. LET THE MOB RULE and the rich and the elite will know that people owe them NOTHING, instead the onus is upon them to join the “PEOPLE” and lobby for a construct of a better society (not a better performing profit at the expense of fellow human being, even if they are BLACK).
LONG LIVE TO THIS MOST REASONING MOB, LONG LIVE. If its a mob that could not harm a fly within a period of 120 Hours (except that it will frustrate an “exceptionally intellegent” grouping of self-centred morons who think they are the “untouchebles”). A progressive and a democratic world realy needs this kind of a mob (not the ARMS DEAL GODFATHERS).
Prof, in my mind the level of inaptitude and incapability to conduct/chair an ANC meeting (National Conference inparticular) by T. Lekota is still arlamingly striking. Is this the kind of a “leader” who was sent to “deal decisively” with another “undemocratic mob from Kgutsong”? I do not wonder why he never succeeded.
I was in the conference (I saw it live), the poor guy’s first attempt was to make the ANC National Conference a Summit of Provinces. How do you explain that +3,600 delegates from Branchs were supposed to be dictated by “super-comrades” from the provinces in what-ever motion coming from the floor to be asserted within the Conference. This is the very same guy who thought that only Limpopo and E. Cape were the provinces within the Conference. Thought to be strategic????, when their National Leadership position was challenged by the foor, he give FOUR (4) “so called Provincial Mandated Delegates” from Limpopo 2 and E. Cape 2 to endorse the conference rules. This was dispite the fact that, there was a counter motion from ANCYL and supported by another “so called mandated provincial delegate” from KZN. It is then that the whole thing got out of his control, surfice to say that Motlante a TRUE ANC LEAD (not a Factionalist Cabal Kingpin) saved his day.
If this nonsensical act is a construct by the “leaders” at the national level of the ANC (Chairperson in particular), how do you expect the delegates to hold their horses. You will be naive enough to believe that, whilst someone that is well-known for his knowledge of ANC procedures fumbles that way and expect thing to be “normal as ever”. Lekota spoiled the 1st Day of the ANC 52nd National Conference and the video footage of that is a living evidence.
But funny enough, the so called model democrates, people of the “high moral esteem” are at the delegates throats as if they were the pepetrators of the whole “most undisciplined showing by an ANC conference” ever. I’m not suprised though, because it is the very same delegates who are believed to be uneducated, headless and backward bunch that has been blinded by a Zuma “magic”. Ignorant minds never sieze to amaze, there’s a say that “The more they build-up their wall fences, the more their eyes are fixed to the clouds. To an extent that they believe they are flying in the sky and worse part, they believe its only by themselves although they never built the walls themselves. This is because with the amount of wealth that the systems fixes to their wallets, they have servants everywhere.”
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Steven Friedman is a research associate at Idasa and visiting professor of politics at Rhodes University. He is a newspaper columnist and a media commentator on South African politics. His academic speciality is the study of democracy. He wrote Building Tomorrow Today, a study of the trade-union movement, and edited two studies of the South African transition.
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We say we want democracy — but we don’t seem to like it much when we see it. How else to interpret the breast-beating from commentators and some delegates here at Polokwane after the opening day of the ANC conference?
Democracy in the west is vastly different to democracy in the third world (Africa) Yes it is good that everyone says what they have to say except that in Africa, if your neighbour does not agree with you, he eithers hits you with a knobkerrie, stabs you or puts a bullet through your head. I reckon you’ve got it all wrong, this is the beginning of South Africa turning into just another banana African country.
I deplore the manner in which you write about our President, because that is what he is. Your lack of respect is shocking and he deserves better. He has led SA peacefully through a very difficult time. He is not perfect but his successes have been greater than his failures. Zuma is going to do whatever he gets told to do by the people who got him there. A stooge- just like the old homeland leaders. Remember your column because you will rue the day when Mbeki is no longer our President.
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