The news of the death of former health minister Manto Tshabalala-Msimang broke on Twitter soon after lunch, and it was fun watching the back-and-forth between the editors and the public as the media frantically searched for someone to confirm the rumours. There was even a moment of drama as some claimed that Manto wasn’t in fact dead.
It seemed like the balloon boy hoax was happening all over again. But her death was confirmed, and the ensuing scandal was nipped in the bud. A contingent of South Africans, led by that twit Gareth Cliff expressed glee at the news of the passing of Manto. You can read Cliff’s reaction here. Have a bucket to vomit into ready, because you’ll need it.
Here are my feelings on Manto. She was barking mad at times and her madness (let’s not forget Mbeki here) indirectly lead to the death of hundreds of thousands of HIV-positive South Africans. Some estimates say that her refusal to allow a roll-out of antiretrovirals may have indirectly caused the deaths of as many as 330 000 people. That is unbelievably tragic, and an indictment on the ANC, on Thabo Mbeki and on herself. Perhaps it’s an indictment on us as a country as well. How could we let her do this? I was happy when Mbeki lost power, and rejoiced when Manto was removed as health minister. I had been hoping that Mbeki and Manto may some day have to answer for their Aids denialism that cost so many people their lives. As it is, she’s gone now and we will never know what went through her mind all those years when she had the power to do something about the scourge of HIV/Aids, and yet chose to ignore the problem. Yet I don’t feel any sense of satisfaction at the news of her passing.
I disagreed wholeheartedly with her stance on HIV/Aids, but I didn’t rejoice at the news of her death. I felt a small sense of sadness, in that one of South Africans greatest comic figures, one who had fuelled and inspired so many rants, blogs and articles of mine is now gone. Like her or not, she occupied a great space in our collective consciousness as a country. Even though the last year of her life was spent in relative obscurity, she was once a big deal. To me, it’s like hearing that the bad-tempered, elderly neighbour has passed. I wouldn’t go as far as saying I mourn her death, but I certainly don’t rejoice because of it.
So it was with much disgust that I read the reactions of Cliff and many others. Metaphorically dancing on her dead body isn’t going to bring back those who died because of her policies. To me, it shows low character, churlishness and a basic lack of humanity. Tshabalala-Msimang has friends and family that she leaves behind, can’t we show respect to them? Yes, we should mourn those who died of Aids, particularly those who were denied treatment because of Manto’s stance. But that gives us no right to piss all over her body, so to speak. I would urge Cliff and the other gleeful scoffers to show ubuntu. The time for rejoicing was last year, when Manto lost her job. Doing it now is simply grotesque.
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48 Responses to “Rejoicing over Manto’s death is grotesque”
What an excellent post Charles. You sum up exactly how I feel. The woman had her failings, but we do not dance on her grave to point them out. I too rejoiced when she lost her job. Her being minister of Health was the only relationship I ever had with her, and when she lost that job, the issue had been dealt with.
[…] Thought Leader » Sipho Hlongwane » Rejoicing over Manto’s death is grotesque www.thoughtleader.co.za/siphohlongwane/2009/12/ – view page – cached The news of the death of former health minister Manto Tshabalala-Msimang broke on Twitter soon after lunch, and it was fun watching the back-and-forth between the editors and the public as… Read moreThe news of the death of former health minister Manto Tshabalala-Msimang broke on Twitter soon after lunch, and it was fun watching the back-and-forth between the editors and the public as the media frantically searched for someone to confirm the rumours. There was even a moment of drama as some claimed that Manto wasn’t in fact dead. View page […]
She was a human being and yes, what Gareth Cliff wrote on Twitter is beyond disgusting. And you are wrong in saying that Manto was responsible for the deaths of 300000 people. Her baffling approach to AIDS was horrifying but she did not DELIBERATELY mislead people because she wanted to hurt them. She thought that ARV’s were more dangerous than AIDS itself and wanted to spare the sick more misery. This was obviously a mistaken approach but, what can be said; May her soul rest in peace and may God comfort her family. RIP Ms Tshabalala-Msimang
Hear hear!!! I am still waiting for that fool to be brought into order. I’m really all for freedom of speech, but it comes with responsibilities and that overgrwon boarding school bully Gareth seriously didn’t take it to heart that people are gonna be hurt coz of his trailer trash comments.
Even Jeremy Nell said that: Why is Manto blamed for AIDS deaths? Thousands died becoz stupid infected men couldn’t keep their dicks in their pants…
Gareth Cliff thrives on controvesy, see it just might boost his ratings on his lousy Mnet show. He loves being in the limelight and will do anything, and i mean ANYTHING to get it. This is the kind of reaction he was expecting and i bet you that right now that long chinned twit is gleaming…makes me sick i tell you.
Unless, of course, her liver complications were exacerbated by free pills that Rath was giving her. In that case her death would be far too poetic not to celebrate.
Gareth Cliff’s response is in bad taste, disgusting actually. No matter what Dr MTM did in her life, she was still a human being who deserved to be treated with dignity in life and in death. I am ashamed of anyone who celebrates the tragic death of another!
Dr MTM grew up in a terrible time in our history, and can be forgiven for turning to drink to ease the painand suffering. How many others don’t do it?
I also believe that she was misunderstood and maliciously misquoted by a cruel media.
Her stance on AIDS was not the worst thing to ever happen in SA. She, along with President Mbeki, knew that it was not sustainable to ply people with meds they would inevitably forget to take or sell to someone else. She was aware that there were other, equally serious, diseases and illnesses that required spending. Cancer, Malaria, TB, to name a few. What makes AIDS the be all and end all of our existence.
Why is it so easy to blame government for these problems when people refuse to take responsibility for their own actions? Easy way out!
R.I.P. Doctor, only God can be your judge, and He has more mercy than humans do! Condolences to her family.
I perceive your sense of humanity, and what about the humanity of 330,000 victims. Her political history typifies the arrogance of many African leaders - ‘my way or no way’. She also highlights the tragedy of some African views, anything scientific is somehow Western and as such is tainted and reinforces ‘our’ sense of inferiority and our marginal value in a global sense. The woman is dead but her views and attitudes still remain within much of the political classes - may they all die in ‘comfort’. Unlike the disempowered who generally died it absolute wretched circumstances, and those that continue to die in most cases with no vestige of dignity. Until SA as a whole addresses numerous basic humanitarian issues there will be no peace, but I fear the dye is cast. No doubt the ancestors wail in agony as they view their childrens children behave with arrogant self interest. Ubuntu a bit like christianity preached but seldom practiced.
I agree fully with the article. by no means a fan of hers but to delight in her death is a bit much. having said that, i will not speak well of her just because she is dead but she has family and friends who are hurting. she was horrid in many ways but a smart woman (if you read anything about her studies overseas etc.)and she helped the MK in Africa. Your last sentences say it best; the time for rejoucing was when she lost her job. i’m glad she lost the power she had but my heart goes out to her family nonetheless.
Sipho, I don’t agree with you but you have stated your case. (And so did Gareth Cliff - a right you both enjoy). Disrespect to Manto in death is not an indictment of the country’s social pulse. Rape, child abuse, murder, corruption - that is the true disease of society. Some, like me, do not like her, do not think her earlier contribution in exile mitigates her mistakes in later life. I’m not gleeful she is dead. Unlike the DA and COPE and ANC speech writers, I wasn’t shocked at her death. Too many reports suggested her transplant was rejected and her lifestyle contributing negatively to that. She was also 69. I also will not do politesse for you. Her family and friends must make their peace or deny her legacy. If they love her enough, nothing that any of us say will change any of that. I also wonder, when FW de Klerk or Helen Zille dies, whether this respect for family and friends’ feelings will be remembered as much. I doubt it.
I don’t rejoice at her death, however I can understand those that do. Her actions (or lack thereof), based on psuedo-science led to untold suffering for thousands.
She should never have held any position of power, much less Health Minister.
Well said! I too watched as this unfolded on Twitter. I found it rather bizarre. It was also ironic that this was happenening on the Day of Reconcialiation - the 13th anniversary of the TRC. Go figure?!
Without a doubt, I was left in shock and disgusted as well. Such careless comments as shared by Gareth Cliff and others are not exemplary, nor warranted especially when one has such a following of listeners.
We need to be contructive in our criticism; build instead of destroy. The spirit of ubuntu is universal and some of its elements are compassion, respect and humility.
However, I’m thrilled that SA can have such open dialogue and call to order some of our own social ills.
Well said, i personally am not a fan of the governement as a whole but i would never rejoice when one of them dies. That is why South Africa will never be transformed, it’s because we hate each other so much, we not only judge and condemn the other’s actions but we judge the person themselves. I was never a fan of Manto but i do think that she deserves respect as an elderly person who has passed on.
ALL ONE NEEDS TO KNOW ABOUT HIV/AIDS PREVENTION AND TREATMENT or what Manto was trying to say :
1. The human body has a most effective immune system for protection against diseases
2. This is built up early in life by being exposed to minor infections – not as advertised by an excess of protection against ‘germs’ - and by the same process – by immunization
3. The body’s general health and immune system is maintained by sound nutrition
4. A person in excellent health may not catch influenza when in company of others
5. But if contracted and not treated, influenza can lead to pneumonia and death
6. Similarly, HIV if contracted and not maintained or treated can lead to AIDS and death
7. Therefore, the matter of good nutrition is the key – not to solving the HIV/AIDS question
but by keeping the established CD4 count level below that of the threshold that exists between the contracting of HIV and fully blown AIDS.
Indeed. But then I get cross-eyed, would it have been wrong for Jews to celebrate the death of Hitler, blacks that of Verwoerd? I don’t mean to compare these I come from a culture where death is moaned irrespective of the character of the dead. Do all the people share this culture, I think not. Now I’m more confused…
The greatest irony is that she died on Reconciliation Day. The other obvious fact is that the elitist also cannot allow themselves to show some humanity or humility at the passing of a person who contributed greatly in many other ways. The greatest sadness is that many who criticise,scoff,belittle,degrade,patronise,humiliate etc,have no idea of her other credible contributions to SOUTH AFRICA. I am not saying that she was perfect. Here is a great example of a person flawed,tainted and imperfect.But here is also an eg of a person who at a young age, decided to sacrifice and be part of a struggle to bring about change. That surely must count for something. I am appalled at all these disrespectful ‘ commentators’ who shout from glass houses as if they are the moral compass for our society. They have not contributed anything to our society. And yet,they misuse the national broadcaster which belongs to ALL the citizens of SA, rich or poor, to spew their insensitive hatred for humanity. And this is done in the CHEAP name of being “controversial” (for whom and for what,I wonder?). Until these ‘perfect’ fools can match and show enormous human sacrifices for the greater GOOD of a SA society in their personal capacity, then who are they to criticise any human being who at least had the courage to make a life-changing decision to fight for justice.
I surprised myself by being sad at the death of the woman who embarrassed the medical fraternity of this country. I am particularly sad that she was not made to answer for her actions…she has escaped lightly in my opinion. I also think that her doctors need to come clean on exactly how she got a liver transplant initially….
Go Gareth go!
Absolutely spot on!
Direct and blunt as always. We can always count on Gareth for the honest truth or at least his honest opinion.
Okay Sipho, tone it down if you wish in the immediate aftermatch of Manto’s death but spare a thought for the hundreds of thousands of people Manto and Mbeki CLEARLY had no thought for!
Then reconsider toning it down.
You know, a human being has passed on regardless of who the person is.
I am not asking for people to mourn her if they choose not to,let’s respect a
Human being who has passed on!
1. you are lying Manto and Mbeki NEVER denied HIV/AIDS. Tey merely raised questions. Questions are not denialism. Get a life sir. The two challenged the drug producers for wanting RSA to purchase AZT at inflated prices while the manufacturers stated they were doing Africa a favour. So rather question that, you will not find a statement or speech by Mbeki on denialism.
2. Manto encouraged people to eat healthy while waiting on ARV’s. That is not denialism. she stated that african potato, beetroot, garlic have nutritions necessary to keep strong. That is no denialism.
You and the rest need to stay sane and not be fooled by the baseless claims Manto and Mbeki denied AIDS. Instead charge pfizer and others for denying AIDs dugs to RSA suffering people.
I agree with you entirely. It doesn’t matter whether you agreed with her or not - EVERY death is a terrible tragedy and a loss. Those who make fun of it must remember it’s coming to them too. People who ‘danced on her grave’ are being selfish, shallow and disgusting.
Sipho - Indeed “..the deaths of as many as 330 000 people..is unbelievably tragic, and an indictment on the ANC, on Thabo Mbeki and on herself (Manto)”. These facts place at least these two individuals on homicide charge list.
You go on: “Perhaps it’s an indictment on us as a country as well. How could we let her do this?” How, you ask ? Quite simply because everyone was poep scared and did not dare to stick even a hair above the parapet. And you give the answer yourself: “I was happy when Mbeki lost power, and rejoiced when Manto was removed as health minister.” So the danger of the then powerful was conveniently removed. And you go on: “I had been hoping that Mbeki and Manto may some day have to answer for their Aids denialism that cost so many people their lives.” Come on, bra Sipho, since when has anyone with power have to answer for anything in these corridors of power?
I will not wait with bated breath for the likes of you finding the courage to speak out strongly against those NOW in power ganging up with Mugabe and his gangsters ganging up against the people of Zimbabwe thereby perpetuating the genocide there that makes the Mbeki/Manto show look like a mild curtainraiser.
Talk of the grotesque!
And I must reprimand OneFlew - ‘all those who are outraged about the rejoicing are black’. Wrong, wrong and wrong again. Do not stereotype people. Many white people are as disgusted as many black people about the tasteless comments since her death.
Accountability? How do you account for the deaths of so many people? Who gave Mbeki and Manto the right to condemn so many to death? It is sad she has died because now she no longer has to live with her conscience - that is if she had one.
Mbeki should be forced to spend time with aids orphans because he is partly responsible for creating them.
A writer commented that this is all about race?? Well it’s not, its all about stupidity and thinking just because you were voted into power, or appointed into power this means that you know it all.
Manto has 330,000 aids deaths on her conscience but Mbeki has not only the 330,000 aids deaths on his but the destruction of Zimbabwe and 3,000,000 people who have fled the country.
The ANC too is to blame and they too should take from their gravy train and support aids orphans and Zimbabwe refugees that they prefer to call “economic immigrants”. The ANC dropped the gates at the borders and noe they won’t take responsibilty for the human catastrophe that they have created. Malema says that Mugabe is Africa’s finest son. We have fools that run this country and again, a fool can be any race or colour. We should not rejoice at Manto’s death but we should be glad that she is no longer able to kill people where she has gone be it up or Down.
Good, well-balanced article - unlike most of the following comments.
Gareth Cliff fills a valuable role in SA - he is the white alternative to Julius Malema. He demonstrates that stupidity is not related to race, creed or color.
For a more balanced view of Dr MTM’s life I recommend http://www.thedailymaverick.co.za/article/2009-12-16-the-end-of-the-road-for-manto.
Her great crime was to question the establishment view of a particular disease, and to stick to her guns when the going got rough. The chattering classes hate that sort of consistency - it questions what they JUST KNOW to be true.
However, look at what Luc Montagnier, the recent Medicine Nobel winner for his “discovery” of the HI virus, has to say:
‘We can be exposed to HIV many times without being chronically infected. Our immune system will get rid of the virus within a few weeks, if you have a good immune system,’ the scientist says. Leung responds: ‘If you take a poor African who’s been infected and you build up their immune system, is it possible for them to also naturally get rid of it?’ Nodding, Montagnier replies, ‘I would think so.’ Then: ‘It’s important knowledge which is completely neglected. People always think of drugs and vaccine.’ Leung remarks that there is no money in nutrition. ‘There’s no profit, yes,’ replies Montagnier.
This interview is from a forthcoming film called “House of Numbers”. Read more at http://www.houseofnumbers.com
Manto’s stance on ARVs may have been the right one at the time, but not for the right reasons. I am not certain whether South Africa has the capacity to ensure that HIV+ people, especially those in rural areas, stick to their ARV treatments. It must be considered what would happen if ARV treatments are rolled out, without the necessary infrastructure on the ground to maintain treatment. HIV+ people may start taking ARVs, but then lapse once they start feeling better, if facilities are not there to educate and monitor them. Incomplete treatment using ARVs could lead to HIV strains that are resistant to medication. So in some ways, what Manto was proposing: healthy diet and abstinence, was probably the best course under the circumstances
Andrew Slaughter on December 17th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
No Mark Robertson, the faultline here is entirely racial. Some are of course rushing in to blur the boundaries but that too is out of racial sensitivity. (Who would rush to the post-mortem defence of, say, Wouter Basson or Slobodan Milosevich? And who who would write the “good riddance” obituaries?) It is all about race and “people like us”.
I see on a news site that Renier Schoeman, a govenment flunky of some stripe, has condemned the Cliff remarks as “viscous”. Now Cliff may be as thick as the bottom of any other barrel of crude but clearly the only reason his viscosity has offended is because of the racial angle.
I liked Manto - she banned smoking, she reduced the price of drugs, she stood against the drug companies who wanted to rip joe public off with high arv drug prices that history will show have limited effect on Aids related deaths. I think that her approach to the HIV problems was probably right for South Africa.
Gareth and Julius make controversial statements to satisfy their own attention seeking needs.
Some really good comments that I think show a few things. It isn’t a race issue unless you choose to make it one. Many, both black and white think Clift’s comments were insensitive (reprimand, suspend for one week, don’t fire). A good comparison with Clift to malema T Watkins, maybe rather than a white malema; just another malema. But look at Traps’ summary of malema’s outbursts in his TL (http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2009/12/15/the-first-ancyl-sacp-war/). To me they are more racist, more absolute lies and no condemnation. Why not?
Then pretty much as Balt notes - why no open criticism of Mbeki, who I think gave Manto the direction and egged her on.
Lastly, it’s rich for people to now to accept/admit that many, many of her policies were wrong, misguided and resulted in unnecessary suffering, and not just of AIDS sufferers. She ran the SA Health system like her personal plaything, following petty grudges and ignoring informed advice. Why did so few people speak out at the time? Why was the DA and TAC derided by the ANC and its sycophants when these policies were killing people, most of them poor people?
It’s very like now not being able to find a Nat voter in white SA or a Nazi supporter in Germany. Let’s show a little cold rationality now and not keep making the same mistakes. Speak out against wrong without fear or favour.
I have a question to those who say “We need to respect the dead, a human being has passed on”.
Did you say the same thing when PW died? Or were you with the rejoicing masses saying they can’t wait to dance on his grave and that you hope he is dining in hell? Were you part of the group that said it was your greatest day in history?
Do you respect the dead, when the dead is someone who has hurt you? Do you ignore the ills of the dead when that person is someone who helped your cause?
What’s good for one is good for the other. You either respect ALL human beings in death, or you don’t. No problem if you don;t - just don’t be a hypocrite and demand respect from others when you yourself have relished in the opposite.
Personally, I will respect the dead as much as the living. Just because she died, does not mean I instatly like her, respect her and think she did a good job. I think she did a terrible job and she will leave a reeking legacy. Being dead does not change what you did while alive.
I agree totally with your post, and am quite appalled at the general lack of disrespect certain people have shown at her passing. I vehemently disagreed with her actions, statements and decisions which have lead directly and indirectly to the death of those from Hiv/ Aids. However! despite her failing many and public she was still someone mother, someone friend. A human being, and we do not make light of the deaths of people no matter who they are or what they have done. It is simply a terrible reflection on the state of south africa right now, that we joke about such things.
Perhaps, we should show more respect for life in the form of the living who are still able to act and wrought change and suffer than for the dead who can no longer act, cannot change what they’ve done here and has gone on to a different existence of (insert favorite belief here).
“Respect for the Dead” is one of those loaded phrases with religious overtones that smacks of fear of the unknown. Why respect a person for dying? Any kid with AIDS can do it and usually do, there’s really nothing to it.
That does not mean I can respect the sensation-seeking moron Gareth Cliff for the macabre act of dancing on a dead body. Leave the dead alone, they neither need our respect nor our scorn. Their only value to the living is in remembering what they did right and also not to repeat their mistakes, otherwise we show disrepect for their life.
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Sipho Hlongwane has done none of the things that normally qualify people to be on this august site. He has never written a book, or completed a fancy PhD in the vagaries of politics, economics or even a BA.
What he does then, is scribble. For fun. And that somehow landed him here. He earns his keep as a very tiny cog in a massive industrial machine, and occupies his evenings and early mornings slogging away at an LLB degree.
An avid fan of jelly beans, reading and Arsenal FC, he enjoys political satire (what he does not enjoy is talking of himself in the third person) and thinks that South Africans tend to take themselves a little too seriously. May this blog never fall into the same trap.
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What an excellent post Charles. You sum up exactly how I feel. The woman had her failings, but we do not dance on her grave to point them out. I too rejoiced when she lost her job. Her being minister of Health was the only relationship I ever had with her, and when she lost that job, the issue had been dealt with.
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