Freedom of expression, subject to particular limitations, in all democratic societies is guaranteed to all citizens. Democratic values of human dignity and equality are affirmed by such freedoms, which we hold dearly. It is generally accepted in our country that while we exercise these freedoms, none of us should extend them to advocacy of hatred that is based on race, ethnicity, gender or religion, and that constitutes incitement to cause harm. Despite these clear prescriptions in terms of the Constitution, there are those who see themselves towering supreme above the Constitution; who prescribe and dictate to society the nature of public discourse and the direction it should take in all matters relating to religion and culture. These people attempt to silence others who wish express an uncomfortable view on matters they have decided not to be open to discussion.
The president of France, Nicolas Sarkozy, caused an uproar when delivering a speech at the Palace of Versailles recently. He intimated that the Islamic garment for women, the burka, is unacceptable and must be banned from France. He said: “We cannot accept in our country women imprisoned behind netting, cut off from any social life, deprived of any identity … This is not the idea the French republic has of a woman’s dignity … The burka is not a sign of religion, it is a sign of subservience … It will not be welcome on the territory of the French republic.”
The Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) immediately responded as expected and expressed their disgust at the view expressed by Sarkozy. Dr Reefat Drabu of the MCB said: “It is patronising and offensive to suggest that Muslim women wear the burka because their male partners or guardians pressure them to do so … Instead of taking a lead in promoting harmony and social cohesion amongst its people, the French president appears to be initiating a policy which is set to create fear and misunderstanding and may lead to Islamophobic reaction not just in France, but in the rest of Europe also.”
The question that arises out of the overwhelmingly angry reaction to Sarkozy’s view is whether anything associated with the religion of Islam is beyond intense scrutiny and interrogation. There already exists a trend that suggests that those of us who do not follow the religion of Islam are prohibited from examining certain practices widely embraced by faithful Muslims and expressing a view on them. If the issue is the manner in which Sarkozy expressed his view, so be it, but nothing in his view suggests he was intent on promoting Islamophobia and many other things that Dr Drabu accuses him of. The MCB attempts to bury public discourse on the issue of Muslim women’s rights being subjugated.
Every Muslim would correctly state that nothing in the religion of Islam promotes the oppression or abuse of women. Prophet Muhammad said: “I recommend that you treat women with goodness. The best of you are those who treat their wives the best.” We must accept based on these words and in line with universal democratic values that Muslim women too have the right to human dignity and equality; that their gender should not be the basis upon which certain prescriptions are imposed upon them and used to deny them certain freedoms.
There are those who insist that people like Sarkozy are imposing Western values and beliefs on Muslims and that he seeks to undermine their religion and cultural practices. Whether you are Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu or atheist, there are universal values of peace, freedom, social progress, equal rights and human dignity that apply to all of us and which we must embrace and promote, instead of sowing the seeds of mutual distrust and divisiveness. There cannot be rules, whether informed by religious beliefs or not, that apply to one particular gender and places restrictions on the other.
The common argument among the open-minded Muslim men I have had the pleasure of engaging with on this issue is that Muslim women have the freedom to choose what they want to wear or not; that not a single Muslim woman is forced wear a burka; that this is their personal choice. This assertion is far removed from the truth as Muslim women under Taliban rule in Afghanistan suffered fatal consequences if they chose not to wear the burka. As extreme as this case may be, the fact of the matter is that the Taliban had imposed strict rules on the people of Afghanistan based on their incorrect interpretation of the religious prescriptions contained in the Qur’an as well as the Hadith (set of teachings by the Prophet which are not contained in the Qur’an).
Under sharia law certain prescriptions oblige Muslim women to dress and conduct themselves in a particular manner that seeks to entrench patriarchy and render them inferior to their husbands, fathers and even their sons. The rationale is that Muslim women should not expose themselves in a manner that would compromise the righteous conduct of Muslim men. This assumes that Muslim women would not lust after uncovered men and compromise their own beliefs.
In absence of all these religious or cultural prescription there would not have been any Muslim woman who would have chosen out of her own volition to hide her face and rob us of the inalienable right to admire her ravishing beauty. Muslim women wear the burka because they have been taught that it is their religious duty to do so. Indeed, women should have the right to choose what they want and wear what they want, but in this instance Muslim women are following the dictates of their religion and culture. It is not their choice in the true meaning of freedom. Religious beliefs exist within a certain framework that consists of a number of rules. If you subscribe to that religion you are required to abide by such rules and Islam is no different.
The question that must be posed to those who claim Sarkozy’s suggestion of banning the burka would in fact violate the right of Muslim women to wear what they please, is why then if some of these rules do not promote male chauvinism are Muslim men not required to cover their faces?
Though everyone is sensitive when it comes to preserving their cultural and religious beliefs, it is equally important that we are all cognisant of the realities of the day and continue to pose difficult and uncomfortable questions in relation to long-held customs and beliefs as society progresses. Equality among men and women and human dignity are inalienable rights that neither religious prescription nor long-held cultural practices should inhibit.
Why don’t they have a Burka for the guys. its not right! Now we got all these women convinced that they are wearing the veils out of choice..somebody came up with that Idea. Its about time women write their own rules!!
i’m actually going to invite a friend of mine who has studied and written extensively about islamic feminism to respond to this.
you do have some things right, but you have even more things wrong, and the mistakes that you make are, for all intents and purposes, will probably make you the new boyfriend of a certain islamophobic commenter of these boards.
after my friend has commented, then i will do so.
I’m getting a bit weary of this conversation. I find it truly insulting that the West finds it appropriate to tell Muslim women what their battles should be. There are many battles that Muslim women are choosing to fight against- cultural issues like female circumcision which are wrongly projected as Islamic, divorce laws that are not implemented as they should be, patriarchal interpretations of texts. But really, to many, a piece of cloth on the head is not a matter of subjugation it is a matter of choice. Just as Muslim women in France should be free not to wear it, they should be free to wear it if they choose to. Why would they choose to- you ask? For love of God firstly (or should nuns be banned from wearing habits and Jewish men yarmulkas?), as an outward proclamation of their pride in their faith in the face of a antagonistic society, as a political symbol? It is a complex issue, but one that is given far more prominance than it should be. Help us fight honour killings if you want to help Muslim women, – but let us wear what we damn well want to! Also, we do not have sub-human intellects. Don’t just talk to open minded muslim men to canvass opinion, talk to open minded muslim women before forming an opinion on us. You may be surprised at what you find.
Couple of notes:
“This assertion is far removed from the truth as Muslim women under Taliban rule in Afghanistan suffered fatal consequences if they chose not to wear the burka.”
Sure, in Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia et al, Muslim women are forced to wear the burka. It’s really not clear how they are being forced to wear the burka in Britain.
“In absence of all these religious or cultural prescription there would not have been any Muslim woman who would have chosen out of her own volition to hide her face and rob us of the inalienable right to admire her ravishing beauty.”
Two points:
Virtually every decision springs from the background of the individual who makes it. To claim that Muslim women in democracies are not ‘free to choose’ is dangerously patronising.
“inalienable right” – lol wut?
Finally, Pat Condell talks about this quite a bit on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlkxlzTZc48
Some interesting parallels between some of his ideas and yours.
The burka actually has very little to do with Islam and a lot to do with the tribal customs and patriarchy of the people themselves.
As with other religions, a woman may choose to retire from society and can indicate this by dressing in a manner which is excessively covering and join a “monastic” institution. It has, however, nothing to do with her day to day life.
How a woman observes her chastity etc is her affair as it is a man’s. If men are incapable of self restraint, then there is a serious flaw in their upbringing which requires addressing. Men in other religions appear to be far more discplined, as they can admire women without needing to do more than that. Indeed women have always been able to behave with restraint towards men because it is expected of them.
How about Islam states clearly that men are expected to behave with honour towards women however dressed? It is time that muslim men dropped their patriarchal controls and truly became men of honour.
I agree, But only if the women wearing the Burqas are forced/brain-washed into wearing those Burqas by their husbands or male heads of the families or any other religious group or organisation that has spiritual control over them.
But 1/2 the women I know that wear Burqas do so out of their Strong religious belief that asks them to do that so as to protect the weak-hearted from temptations of a sexual nature. In that case, we should also respect their right to freedom of dressing up as they please, as long as it does not harm anyone.
Personally I think they should be banned as they can be used as a disguise by criminals.
The interesting thread that you don’t really address is that of choice, although you purport to. You unequivocally state that there is no choice when it comes to wearing a burqa – even in a secular state like France – and then advocate removing what (undecided range from little to considerable) choice and ban it all together, thus removing whatever range of choice there was in the beginning.
He’d probably be better off banning it for some security reason unless his sole purpose is to cause some ruckus to take people’s minds off the financial crisis and all its attendant woes.
There are many aspects of the application of Islamic rules, as with pretty much all religions in common, that subjugate women. But the timing and frame of reference of this debate is an interesting one.
And hey, perhaps some of your white power commentators will have something quotable to say on it too.
i’m not sure if my friend — someone who i have known for almost 20 years — has filled in a reply on ths site, but i’ve copied her email response on my blog.
http://kwerekwere.blogspot.com/2009/07/thought-leader-moments-of-fail.html
further comments here, or there, either is fine.
MUNDUNDU, the response on your blog refers.
How can it be out of choice when the burka is imposed on Muslim women by religious prescriptions? Choice is when nothing obliges you do wear it and out of your own volition chooses to cover your face. I would challenge any Muslim woman who argues that the decision to cover her face is out choice. I would challenge her to prove that nothing in Islam demands that she wear this veil.
Sentletse,
You’re way off beam here.
In a secular democracy, freedom of religion prevails.
That means any individual has the freedom to adopt or reject any belief system they choose.
This includes telling any persons or group to take their paraphernalia, rituals and associated belief system and shove it.
In a secular state, there are no religious ‘laws’ which are binding upon anyone, and no individuals or groups may coerce others in any manner, regardless of what religion they claim to be acting under or what their familial relationship might be.
Sarkozy erred in this matter, as religious ‘prescriptions’ lie outside the ambit of the state, and are in any case not binding upon anyone.
His motives had nothing to do with rights and everything to do with political posturing.
Politicians are forever pushing the boundaries of influence into areas of civil liberty where they have no business.
Sarkozy is not the first and surely will not be the last.
presumptuous…
In response to your comment made on mundundu’s blog:” How can it be out of choice when the burka is imposed on Muslim women by religious prescriptions? Choice is when nothing obliges you do wear it and out of your own volition chooses to cover your face. I would challenge any Muslim woman who argues that it is out choice that she covers her face. I would challenge her to prove that nothing in her religion demands that she does so.”
Sentletse, women have the choice of whether to follow those prescriptions or not, and a choice to follow stricter or looser interpretations of those prescriptions. Religion overall is voluntary, and the Quran itself says “There is no compulsion in religion”. While this is sometimes not true in authoritarian countries it is definately true for many muslim women (such as those in South Africa). By stripping them of the choice to follow their interpretation of religion, or assuming that you or Sarcozy (both males) know what is best for them you are being extremely sexist and completely undermining their freedom to choose, to engage with religion and to form their own belief system. Forcing women not to wear a burkah is as offensive to women’s right to choose as focing them to wear one.
Sentletse – It’s a choice because none of the Islamic Scripture forces you to wear the Burqa, it is asked of you, out of the strength of your faith to wear so as to protect innocent males from any sort of sexual temptations[which is a sin].
The problem arises when controlling males of the family force the females to wear the Burqa out of their Jealous perverted minds, thinking I don’t want other males[or females] admiring ‘my’ woman’s beauty.
The discussions on the issue are very ofensive to say the least. It must be borne in mind that the practising of african relegions was and still is viewed as an abomination by white people is south africa to an extend that if I am found slaughtering a cow in my own yard I am supposedly cruel to the animal. It is very strange that most westerners that have brain washed the writer actually think that their believes are superior to others. Why do we elevate that practices of some and find the other very bad.
If you don’t understand something firstly need someone to educate and then stop judging from an ignorant position.
so… at african funerals when a woman comes in with her hair uncovered and wearing a trouser. the general feeling in the crowd says ” Aha! There goes a liberated woman!”
Of course not! but I guess we’re all just colelctively backward. the amish too eh? They force their women into that lifestyle.
Come on Sentletse, chose something else to berate us muslim women for. Because obviously we have no brain to speak of!
Interesting discussion. The problem with most organized religions is that they were made up by men with men making most of the rules/interpretations of morality. Hence most religions are to a degree inheritently sexist. I think the burka is one examples but these examples unfortunately exist in most religions.
I sometimes wonder why we are so worried about other cultures and their practises – is it that we do not want to accomodate anything that is different from ‘ours’? I have studied with women who were the burka, women who do not see it as oppresion but as respect for the males in theor society. Ever thought about whats under those burka’s and how they play a role in keeping the family together? you prefer our young women who wear their thongs and air them out? Trust me, if I was man, I would prefer to have my women all ‘burkhad’ up – with the thongs et all hidden under there – just for me… After all, who isnt selfish when it comes to these matters of pleasure in the dark!
NOKO, are you suggesting that equality among men and women is a Western concept that we must all reject? Don’t be ridiculous! Even certain African customary practices promote male chauvinism and must be equally condemned and be halted. It is a shame that there are those who still seek to entrench this despicable notion of elevating men above women. No person need to be an expert in Islam to understand that a rule that is specifically restricting women in favour of men is sexist.
As a feminist I object to any and all excuses (cultural, religious, tribal, legal) to impose conditions on women that limit their freedom to live full lives.
Women have been a universal ‘under-class’ since the advent of monotheistic religions based on a MALE god. Every such religion has been guilty of oppressing women from the ban on goddesses in Judaism to the prohibition against female Catholic priests, to the witch-burnings in Europe to clitero-dectomy to curfews for women, to separate areas of ‘worship’ in synagogues and mosques, to ‘honour killings’, to the use of women’s clothing as a form of imprisonment. If you don’t think it’s a prison, consider this: The penalty for a woman wearing a burqa who lets ANY part of her body show–even if it is a result of the wind blowing a sleeve back to reveal her hand–can lose the exposed part of her body! That is not “religion” or “culture”. It is insanity.
My preferred punishment for any man who oppresses or abuses a woman (or female child) would be for him to be sentenced to “gender re-assignment”—a sex change op–and then be dropped into the middle of a Taliban or Al Qaeda stronghold. Such men are so purblind that they will never be able to mentally and emotionally ‘switch places’ with women in order to understand the effects of oppression, so treating these men to the physical experience of being perceived as a woman
Bro, dignity? You stole that when you decided you could speak for me.
Siobhan,
Regarding:
‘If you don’t think it’s a prison, consider this: The penalty for a woman wearing a burqa who lets ANY part of her body show–even if it is a result of the wind blowing a sleeve back to reveal her hand–can lose the exposed part of her body! That is not “religion” or “culture”. It is insanity.’
Could you please elaborate?
Where did you get this information, and in what context does this apply? Surely not in France?
AASIA, why is it only Muslim women who have to cover their faces?
When Westerners go to Muslim countries they do not expect to be served pork.
Or alcohol (except in designated areas)
Nor do they intrude on mosques with shoes on
And women know to wear long sleeves and no short skirts.
France has just as much right to say “This is our culture – adapt or leave”.
What right does Sarkozy or any non-Muslim have, to tell Muslim women what they should think or feel or to make presumptions on their behalf?
Personally, I’d love to rid the world of burkhas. To many people they’re a horrible and depressing sight as they are to me. They compromise public safety because anyone could be under there carrying anything, and kids (Western kids, anyway) are terrified of the ugly “black ghosts” with the hidden faces. I’ll put space between myself and a bulk in a burkha whenever possible, which maybe is what that person wants, anyhow.
For me, burkhas speak of paranoia, distrust and hate of the non-Islamic world; they cut off friendly communication and the kindly civilities that many of us consider important, and they also offer a creepy perverse identification of the woman as a sexual object, unfit to be seen. Wherever she goes, her gender is projected as the most important thing about her…and I don’t want to live in a country where this becomes normal. Personally speaking. But others will differ.
In a liberal democracy, there might be valid practical reasons for restricting this divisive garment, but there’s no excuse for patronising attempts by Western or African men to tell Islamic women what they should feel. Any more than Islamists can tell me how I should feel or react to that black, shapeless, faceless, voiceless hulk that might or might not be a woman.
Continued from above:
may be the only way to educate them!
France has the right to do what it wants to. No argument there. Muslim women have the right to do what they want to. No argument there. Muslim women in France are a minority, and France has been her stance clear. Period.
However, I find it ridiculous that someone can compromise their dignity by dressing conservatively. They have CHOSEN to do this in the MAJORITY of cases….taliban situation is different I admit. Please realise that you are NOT these womens’ protector. Your track record is pathetic in any case, with 1 in every 4 South African men being a rapist. May I suggest a few blog topics for you to work on…..
THE REED DANCE: TAKING AFRICAN WOMAN’S DIGNITY AWAY!
PORNOGRAPHY: HOW COULD WE CHRISTIANS LET THIS HAPPEN?
SOUTH AFRICAN MEN: RAPING AWAY IN THE NAME OF CULTURE AND TRADITION.
PARIS HILTON: SO NAKED YET SO DIGNIFIED.
Waiting with excitement.
Siobhan: your statement ‘If you don’t think it’s a prison…It is insanity.’ is absolutely ridiculous. It does not apply to most women that wear the burka and certainly not those in France. Cite sources when you make generalisations like this.
Lyndal Beddy: What you do not realise is that many of the muslim women wearing a burka in France are not visitors, but second and third generation French citizens…if the West is a pluralistic society that grants freedom to their citizens this is a strange way of showing it and completely inconsistent with the Liberty, Equality, Fraternity motto of France. The big east west divide that you are referring to is slowly eroding and muslims in Britain, France and South Africa for that matter, are citizens that are no longer ‘them’, but are steadily becoming a part of ‘us’.
Sentletse: It is religion. Whether you think it is fair or not that women have to cover their face (and they don’t ‘have to’- dependent on interpretation), their right to follow their religion should be respected. Just as a nun has a choice to don a habit if they want to, as orthodox jewish women can cover their hair and orthodox jewish men can dress with hats and long sideburns, as traditional african women cover their hair and as various cultures can slaughter animals. It is a choice that should be respected.
@ Someone
Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have the most current information on the practice of amputating hands, etc. of women in Afganhistan and Iran for the ‘crime’ of ‘exposing’ a hand (one burqa-clad woman was driving at the time and the wind blew back her sleeve). Another,lost a foot (a burqa-clad woman walking her daughter to school when the wind blew the burqa and showed her sandals and lower calf).
Other cases involve throwing acid on the faces of women who object to wearing the burqa or who just disagree with a male on any issue. One recent case was documented by a journalist in Pakistan. A young woman qualified as an air hostess and was overjoyed to have landed her first job. Her father disapproved and threw acid in her face. She was in hospital with 3rd degree burns over face, head, neck. chest and arms (she tried to protect herself) at the time of the filming of the documentary (which was actually a travel doccie,not an ‘issue’ doccie). That poor girl is only one of thousands of cases per year.
This is not ‘religion’. This is not ‘culture’. This is pathology. Sadistic, misogynist, evil. If these crimes were being perpetrated by one racist group against any other race, the outcry would be deafening. But when it is men inflicting a living death on their daughters, wives, fiances, or even strangers in the street, it’s a ‘religious’ or a ‘cultural’ matter.
Yeah. Right.
@Aasia The ‘Amish”
The “Amish” are a religious sect whose members have the opportunity to choose their way of life when they reach age 16 (in some communities) or 18. Most choose to stay. They are, like Quakers and Mennonites, officially ‘conscientious objectors’ to war and to violence in general.
Their communities (mainly in America and Canada) live within a ‘dispensation’ with regard to civil society. The “Amish” generally eschew any technology that is not ‘in the Bible’. Hence, the absence of electrification on their farms. They are “communitarian” sharing in any surplus produced on their farms and decide collectively how to spend funds gained from selling their produce to ‘the English’ (all non-Amish).
Men and women both wear handmade clothes, coloured with natural dyes which are considered ‘plain’. The focus of the community is on simplicity and living in accordance with ‘biblical’ principles. They do not proselytise. They do not seek converts. They live what they believe without inflicting it on others.
Theirs is a basically subsistence culture in which everyone has an equally important role to play in sustaining their way of life. The role of the male ‘elders’ is controversial to outsiders and I admit it bothers me. But when any male becomes too dominant the community remind him of his fallibility and ‘duty to humility’, an aspect of their culture rarely witnessed by ‘outsiders’ but an effective deterrent to tyranny in practice.
Compare that with the Islamist ideology. Spot the differences?
@Siabhan: Your examples are laughable. You are looking at one of the most ungovernable countries in the world (Afghanistan) and generalising. Educate yourself instead of stereotyping. There are 1 billion muslims in the world in countries that have more freedoms and less freedoms, countries in the east (east of what?) and the west. In countries like Egypt or Indonesia no-one is going to have hands amputated for not being covered up. And again, no-one in France or South Africa is- so why do they do it? Because they want to. Why don’t you get out and meet real muslim women from a variety of walks of life in your own country and talk to them instead of basing your opinion and generalisations on the most extreme examples of abuse and Orientalist fantasy.
@Siobhan – precisely my point,Amish people are given a choice too! experiment and then conform or be shunned my the community.
When they make that choice it’s fine. it utterly laughable. that they only reference you have for islamic barbarity is in poverty ridden countries.
Have you seen how barbaric us muslims in South Africa are? My word, some close their face completely, others only their heads. god forbid those of us who don’t cover at all!
we’re everywhere!
honour killings are not islam based but cultural it has f—all to do with Islam. don’t confuse it!
Islamic theology is a whole other kettle of fish.
THERE IS NO COMPULSION IN ISLAM
Women CHOOSE ( you familiar with that word) to wear Purdah/Niqab/Veil. Not all of us have that choice, but thats man isn’t it.
We have mufti’s saying you must wear it and French presidents banning it.
where’s the balance?
Zulu on my stoep, youve said it ever so well… i too wait in excitement for the reply of those so indebted to the undoing of the burkha… Im convinced there is more to it than just wanting to free the women who chose to wear it… come on people, say it! And then again, perhaps was propels these burkha antagonists is pure burkha envy… Im sure you can get over it by just wearing one for at least a week. Go on, I dare you.
The Burkah in Islam has one very good purpose. It gives a women some dignity. When the west says its wrong and strips a woman of dignity all our S.Africanised Westerners jump on the same band wagon. All religions teach you the same basics, yet most choose to ignore the pertinent stuff and go for what suits them.
How does a veil strip a woman of her dignity.
Should she rather walk around half naked like most of the west and our acting local westerners do. Jumping from bed to bed and man to women and man. Is that dignity? Revealing clothes – IS THAT Dignity? Stop acting like what you are not and be yourselves. If you all practice your prospective religion correctly (not selectively) the world would be a better place simply for that