Yesterday Marion and I went to the local shopping mall here where we live in Auckland, New Zealand. Whilst having some coffee we got into conversation with a Kiwi couple. I had first noticed him when I went to order the coffee from a takeaway in the food court. The two breakfasts he ordered looked like they had been offloaded from the back of a truck. No shortage of steak, sausages, eggs, bacon, toast, hash-browns … things I just dream of with the strict diet I am on. I have lost about twenty-five kilograms in roughly three months, I will proudly have you know. The secret? Easy. Just have my wife’s family supporting me, including her giant son-in-law, who is about two centimetres shy of seven feet, who happily puts me at “heel” at the dinner table.
Anyway. The Kiwi bloke asked what I was ordering and I mentioned our two humble cups of unsweetened coffee while my eyes savoured the tottering mound of goodness on his plate. It turned out he was sitting with his missus at the table next to us. Their names were John and Wendy and we got into a conversation and were soon talking about their best places for breakfasts in Auckland, diet, our travels in China, the UK and our intention to stay in this lovely, peaceful country, New Zealand. “What’s the steak like?” I asked, while John shoved another spadeful of glory into the second most important mouth in the world (no prizes for guessing whose is the most important mouth). To my surprise he offered me some of his steak and I politely said know. I wasn’t hinting. I found the offer odd. Both of us, Marion especially, usually easily get into conversation with strangers wherever we go, but we have experienced a unique openness among the Kiwis. Even in Auckland, the biggest city, people are not treated as anonymous “big city” people. It’s common to chat with people at the bus stop, in the library or at our table in a food court.
What happened next set off an alarm in me. Just before they left Wendy walked over and wrote down her address, phone number and email on a piece of paper. That was very sweet and friendly, but my distrust blossomed with what she said. “You are welcome to come and stay with us anytime. We have a spare room and you’d enjoy the company”. “Yeah, no worries, mate,” echoed John. “Anytime.” A bit more guarded now, I gave them my email address. Only that.
The first thing that went through my mind — easily erroneous — was that these were “swingers”, people who swap spouses to sample fresh sexual pleasures. The spare room. You’d enjoy the company. They were still strangers. But I want to believe in this kind of hospitality.
I told the family about the experience and they confirmed that invitations like that in New Zealand were not unusual. They have lived in Kiwi-land for about six years. It’s obviously not just a South African thing to not trust people too easily. It’s a trend among countries that have had too much violence, political betrayal and a lack of secure, cohesive identity. New Zealand has been rated as arguably the most peaceful country in the world. The Fifa World Cup’s vuvuzela-deafening community is only a temporary illusion, according to some.
Not trusting can easily be passed off as survival instinct, and is still, to South African me, a valid response. My reaction to John and Wendy was not right or wrong. It was the result of my behavioural conditioning: living the first forty years of my life in South Africa. Wendy and John’s invitation was over-zealous, uncomfortable and not the “right thing” to do. Perhaps, at most, exchange phone numbers or emails. But all too readily I have adjusted to this friendly, trusting nature of the Kiwis. I’ve been invited to join singing clubs and so forth in coffee shops and, already gregarious, have opened up a lot more to strangers. The other day I met a South African in a local supermarket, Countdown, and after a chat with him and his girlfriend I suggested we exchange email addresses. He gave me a skeef look, left shortly thereafter. Neither he nor I were wrong in our behaviour. But the lack of trust I regard as sad. People are usually so wonderful and interesting if they can trust themselves enough to open up a bit. Trust has a lot to do with the creation of real community, instead of imaginary community.
New Zealand most certainly has an island, people-oriented ethos and I constantly feel I am in a small town in the way I am able to get into conversation with strangers. The Kiwi sensibility can be criticised as being too insulated. Here small news matters. People matter. Here the newspaper with the highest readership, The New Zealand Herald, will regularly have front-page main headlines screaming “Schoolgirl rugby erupts in brawl” as a pose to any international incident. One has to bear in mind the newspaper has identified what news most interests local readers: just around the corner, people news. Gulf oil spills in Mexico and other, typical front-page screamers are tucked away in the World section, a section usually not more than four pages. The kiwi sensibility is not “right” or “wrong”. The people in your immediate vicinity just come first. Hence there is a lot more trust.
Sounds like a terribly dull place to me..
Give me Jozi anytime, everytime over swopping sweaty napkins with strange kiwi couples in city mall coffee shops!
What about the poor Maoris? There are plenty of problems in their community – suicide, domestic violence, unemployment etc. New Zealand has its problems but they chose to sweep it under the carpet. Just saying.
We left South Africa 16 years ago, spent the first 10 in Auckland and have been living in Melbourne for the last six years.
You are right: both Aussies and Kiwis are open, they trust and help one another, and crime in both countries is minimal. We didn’t lock our front door in Auckland, and I still leave our front door unlocked at night so my daughter, who sleeps in a granny flat in our garden, can get in and out. People have only recently started locking their cars here, and every morning I go for an hour walk on my own and have never once felt unsafe. And Melbourne is big: rougly 4.5 million people.
Do I miss South Africa? No. Family yes, but the country – never.
Rod, how dare you? Brag about how nice the people in Kiwiland are. You are just jealous you are not at the World Cup. Just kidding…
It is true. People in general will greet you, smile, help and yes, invite you over without any skeef kyk! Let me tell you, we were in IKEA Wednesday night and I noticed this lady in the Q with a really old Nokia. I cracked a joke with her that most kids would have had six phones in the same period she had that old Nokia. She laughed and said that she still thinks it’s the best phone ever and we exchanged some small talk.
I asked her if she wanted to sit with us and have dinner and we sat together chatting. After dinner, she gave us her number and said she would be delighted if we visit her on their farm and if we need to sleep over, no problem. I will take her up on that offer soon, as I appreciate it.
I cannot say why it’s different in SA?
Hi Catherine – contradiction in your statement – the problems you refer to in NZ are well-known, highly publicized and debated. Not swept under the carpet. Ummm… otherwise you wouldnt know about it?
As Cathy pointed out (June 16th, 2010 at 4:02 am) commented, kiwis and aussies are more trusting. It’s interesting to debate if this is truly so and if so, why. My aim in blogs like this is not to polarise countries (SA and New Zealand, as perhaps indicated by the very first commentator on this post) in a world that is so globalised. As with China, I like to talk about personal, grass-roots experiences in a different country and, hopefully, create greater understanding, self- and community awareness and bridges.
Personally, Cathy, I miss South Africa and want to visit it again. I spent my first forty one years there and that doesn’t just wash out.
Jozi = shithole + bling
Auckland = Friendly + chilled
hmmm, think i’ll go with Auckland
Been living in OZ for 4 years central coast NSW.Great country great people love it here. But I am not going to let my guard down just because some saffers think that this place is a comparative paradise compared to JHB. First look at the murder stats of SA and Oz and the immediate response is EISH!!! when you compare SA’s 18000 + murders annually compared to Oz 380 for the year. but then if you really want to be objective I have noted that only 530 of that 18000 occured in middle income to higher income suburbs and cities. The rest all happen where I do not go or do not see.
Yes I do live in a quiet NSW town with virtually zero crime where I leave my doors unlocked but then there are people living in the western Cape in places like grayton that do the same and live under the same conditions. I love Oz, great place but I did not come here to get away from crime. I have far too a realistic outlook to be so gullible.
I agree with you-sounds like a wonderful life-hope it lasts forever. Now down to the important stuff! How on earth did you loose so much weight! We need to know this!! Details please.
@Cathy… you left 16 years ago? Mmmh, let me calculate: that would be 1994 then? Among other things, that’s the famous year of the running racist cowards.
Does South Africa miss you? No. Never.
Count your blessings Rod! You some lucky dude.
One of my friends described New Zealand as coma-inducing. Much too quiet.
It’s interesting how perception plays a role in people’s sense of safety. Burglary is quite common in Australia. The rape rate is very high. But people, South Africans particularly, will leave houses unlocked and walk alone because they have a perception that they’re safe. I have actually many times forgotten my front door unlocked, my garage is never locked and on numerous occasions I have neglected to lock my car. Our house happens to have high walls, but then so did my parents’ houses decades ago. Quite a few of my neighbours have no wall. Both my girlfriend and I walk places day and night. And yet I know people who live in the same South African city as me and are completely paranoid. They truly think their neighbourhood is so dangerous they’ll come to some ugly end if they walk down to the corner shop.
Late 70′s, early 80′s, I met an NZ lady in London. I spend twice a few weeks in NZ (South Island). Many youngsters I met at the time had one goal: travel to Europe or just travel!
I must admit, NZ -like any other country- has beautiful places and panorama’s for a keen photographer (as I am). And yes, one never has a beer by yourself for long. But…..once you have done both islands 3 or 4 times….you might want a break from the “long white cloud”.
Travelling from Pretoria to Namaqualand, one does a 1000 km through the Karoo. Many people find it boring while I enjoy the “endlessness” from the Karoo.
But the same in South Africa. Many youngsters want to travel and explore, not necessary because they are bored but because they are curious.
@Jan: NZ might sound dull to you, Jozi is too busy for me: robbed twice in clear daylight, looking over shoulder, threatened in a bar for no reason (“sorrry, mistake!..). But then, we all have our favourite spot on this globe.
Hi Lizanne Barnett – thanks for reply, but we have quite a few hoops to jump through before we can stay in New Zealand. Legally we are entitled to apply for permanent residence but there are outstanding documents (some family Zimbabwe birth certificates etc; I have my SA unabridged birth certificate.).
I am intending to enroll for a Master’s Degree in Creative Writing which will open up lots of opportunities for me and keep me legally in the country till beginning of 2012 whilst permanent residence is in process. Now just the matter of scraping together the money to pay for the degree.
Sad Zimbo – the diet. The diet. No beer, no booze at all. No bread. No sugary or sweet things. Loads of low carb veggies, usually as a soup, lie butternut or pumpkin. Lean meat and I believe in fod combinations. IE no protein with a starch or high carbo like pasta. I dont eat pasta or rice. No sugar. Walk a lot.
Oh the place where I am hoping to do the Master’s is Auckland university. Hope that works out.
It seems to me like a bit of natural reticence is a wise thing. Too much invasive familiarity from strangers can be disturbing. Perhaps the English and the Swiss are the opposite extreme – you know them for 10 years and you never really know them – but some suspicion of strangers is healthy, especially when it involves sleeping arrangements…
Thank you, Mark Robertson, for saying eloquently what I was trying to put out in my first limited, snarky post.
This is about people, not traffic or crime or whatever else mentioned above. I’ve been around some, and always find South Africans to be by far the most real, warm people (in general, of course). Hint: it’s got something to do with what we’ve been through together.
Although, after a very pleasant night spent out in Melville recently, I will grant the Mexicans a warm second spot on the list! It’s not really about trust; it’s about respect. Way too often do people interrupt each other’s train of thought or reading session for inane “how’s this weather we’re having” kind of kak.
I like to connect with people, but without overly intrusive interaction. And sometimes, I just want to be left alone! I’m sitting in a cafe with a book. No, that seat is not taken, for a reason. Later alligator.
I thought I’d comment by using Grant’s formulae. He says:
” Jozi = shithole + bling
Auckland = Friendly + chilled”
I say:
Edinburgh = Friendly + dignified
London = Unfriendly + self-important
Kinshasa = Friendly + dilapidated
Kigali = Amazing
New York = Scariness and The Centre of Faux (More than LA or SF)
Cape Town = Friendliness, Beauty + Dirty Skirts
Trust on the scale you describe is not rational. Adam Smith observed that in a rational world no enterprise could survive because in a such a world no rational employee would honour their contract to work. This would suggest that the people of New Zealand, that you describe, are not rational because they trust… and trust is the basis on which all human development takes place. In fact one could argue that development is not possible in the absence of trust.
Without trust there would be no modern world because no one would honour their assumed obligations. Part of the crisis of our times lies in the rational response to trust… i.e: abuse of trust.
Nonetheless rationality reinforced with intense and rigorous policing seems to create the pre- conditions for trust.
We hope that one useful outcome of our present soccer festival will be more robust policing giving rise to the basic preconditions in which trust may be re established. In principle you should prosper in the land of the long white cloud for the simple reason that the place is so boringly predictably trustworthy.
As an Australian citizen who has spent most of his life living in SA, my experience with Oz and New Zealand is that, sure, mostly people are friendly in the Antipodes, but superficially. Perhaps greater friendships are made under under times of duress, where real issues have to be dealt with. Barry Levy wrote an excellent article in the book ‘Should I stay or should I go’. Barry was an editor of Drum magazine in Johannesburg and left for Australia due to his refusal to be conscripted in the early 80′s. He talks about Seffricen migrants thus; ‘There is a terribly strong sense among these fellow South africans of mine – a sense so strong you can almost see it up their noses whenever you are with them-that it is possible to simply dismiss the country of your birth, the country that gave you your wealth and priviledges, most of the good times in your life and even the education and the money to migrate abroad. More than that, though, this sense includes the notion that SA has suddenly become something worse than evil, something devilishly African. And this to me is hard to swallow. I choke on it actually; and I think they do to. You can see an emptiness floating in their eyes, a gap in their souls..’Perhaps loneliness is worse than feeling occasionaly afraid?
I agree Rod, South africans are a shallow bunch. I have had many a invite here in SA. Took one up once and sorry I did. It was as if I was imposing.
Failing to learn from that mistake I took up another but this time a visit not the invited stay over. Similar result. Much like eating a sour steak with long teeth.
Learned that some people will make an offer without meaning knowing that you may never call back.
Maybe the reason why now when I get any offer I say yeah yeah and throw away the address and tele number.
I’m a rural New Zealander. There’s a number of South Africans that have immigrated to my area and we are pleased to have them (their enthusiasm about rugby is certainly appreciated). I would agree that Rod’s experience is not unusual – my family has had a number of people from overseas come to our place to eat or stay. It is interesting to talk to people from other cultures and get their perspective. Also, people who come from overseas often have no family or network of friends here and might feel lonely or isolated. It’s nice to extend a friendly hand. Inviting people to stay over is a practical thing – if they are travelling to visit you, it would be rude to expect them to go find a motel for the night rather than offering a bed.
Sounds really great Rod. What you describe is how people treated each other when I was growing up in Port Elizabeth. It was quite normal to chat to strangers, and to stop and offer assitance to someone whose car had broken down or suffered a puncture. I guess that’s why PE is known as ‘The friendly city’. Having lived in Gauteng for many years, I still find it strange how an innocent greeting or offer of assitance is often met with a look of suspicion and doubt. Enjoy NZ Boet!!
South Africans have changed. I was away 30+ years and when I left they were just as trusting, hospitable and friendly as the NZs or the Aussies, if not more so. So much has happened in this country in those years that I’ve had to accept how we’ve all become. I say ‘we’ because I changed too, living most of the time in a country where people were very formal, with little sense of hospitality. One of the reasons I returned was the memory of how we were, so it still hurts. 2 years in a neighbourhood and not a single invite over for a beer, never mind a braai or dinner. And yes of course we tried initially, with a house-warming and a few braais.
Saffies are still very special folk of course, but more careful.
The Kiwis you are talking about Rod, I would argue are culturally a fairly homogeneous bunch. While South Africa isn’t. Consequently, they relate better initially. Most of us thrive on change and it seem that village life is a huge novelty compared to the high rise life you have recently left. That said, I would be keen to hear you views once the novelty has worn off and your literary inspiration extends no further than a church fete or an U12 cricket match. When Dullsville gets to you. let us know where you are moving to next.
I have been living in Wellington for some years now and it is far from dull. It has a vibrant arts scene and is recognised for its cafe culture. Think Melville or Long Street in Cape Town – but without the narcissistic sense of self-importance.