I’m surprised no one else has written about this topic. Perhaps it is too trivial, or perhaps our contributors have been momentarily distracted by what the day has to offer. I’m even more surprised to find myself writing about it. After all, I don’t look that bad in a Wonderbra, so I really shouldn’t have anything to gripe about.
I have considered the fact that this is really just supposed to be a fun day and that I’m being a terrible killjoy. At the very least I’m doing the mountain/molehill and storm/teacup thing. But I’ve been easygoing about this sort of thing for most of my life, and I’m finding that I’m finally starting to get a bit irritated by it all.
“Oh, here we go,” I hear you sigh. Here comes another hairy-armpitted (in the words of one of the illustrious contributors here), raging feminist. For the record — not that it’s any of your business, I guess, but just so that we can dispense with any stereotypes in advance — let me just say that I shave my armpits regularly. OK, I’ll admit, sometimes I’m a little lax in that department around the middle of winter.
I also shave my legs. I haven’t ever burned a bra; not my own nor anyone else’s. I quite like lingerie, actually. I have a lot of it. I even have a couple of Wonderbras. I wear make-up to work. I’m a bit of a flirt (much more so when I’ve had a few). I have long hair. I’m a mother. Although these are not all characteristics limited to the female of the species, the point I’m making is that I’m a woman, and absolutely happy to be one. For the record, I have also been, at various times, an athlete, an attorney, a teacher, a writer and an executive. But a woman all the same.
I’m not a woman who wishes she were a man. I’m not a woman who hates men either.
At the moment, however, I am a slightly annoyed woman. Annoyed and heading towards angry. And I’m also going to own up to the fact that I’m a feminist. In fact, I don’t believe that anyone can be a woman and not be a feminist.
An angry feminist.
I’m guessing this is where some people are going to stop reading.
You’ve probably realised by now that the insignificant event that has ignited my ire is this silly National Cleavage Day thing. Yes, it’s just an overblown marketing campaign, but it’s also not just that. There are those who will argue that it’s just a bit of light-hearted fun; don’t take things so seriously, for heaven’s sake! Some will even say that it’s an event that actually promotes women; it’s a positive thing, it’s not as if it’s saying bad things about women, it’s not sexist or anything …
If you’re a man, this argument is facile.
If you’re a woman, you need to wake up.
Have you noticed what the Big Topic on Thought Leader is? It’s Racism. With a capital R. Racism is widely accepted as being a Very Bad Thing. A posting on racism will immediately inspire a flurry of energetic responses. The mere hint of a race debate will be snatched up by the readers like a dropped chop-bone by a hungry Rottweiler. But sexism? Hmmmm. Not so much. Sexism just kinda slides on by, right under the radar — where it can just keep on going without anyone really noticing it or saying, “Just hold on a minute there, mister.” There are the odd occasions when it is so blatant that everyone has to sit up and take notice, but it has to be pretty overt, unlike racism, which can simply be hinted at in order to provoke a response.
What’s my point, I hear the less patient of you grumble.
My point is that sexism is alive and well and thriving in South Africa. And we spend so much time vociferously denouncing racism (and rightly so, of course) that sexism is allowed to thrive unabated. When women (mostly) do express concerns over it, they are frequently dismissed as “bitter” and vague comments are made about their physical attractiveness, or lack thereof; the underlying, and incredibly insulting, suggestion being that they’re obviously only angry because they can’t get a guy.
South African men are developing some very bad habits these days. Apart from the ridiculously high incidences of rape and domestic abuse that have become so prevalent in this country, did anyone notice the more interesting developments like lesbians being raped (to “straighten” them out)? Or were you too busy being outraged by that one student pissing in the stew? And the ongoing harassment of women by taxi drivers? Well, that made the news right up until some fellow somewhere called someone a k … oops! I nearly said it. That would have got me into trouble!
So I’ve been thinking about this National Cleavage Day. It is not just an ad campaign. It is yet another insult that we’re letting slide because it’s “not that serious”. Like the Teazers ads aren’t that serious. I thought we should try to have a National Packed-Package Day. (That whole thing about size not counting? We all know that’s rubbish, don’t we? It’s something said by merciful women to insecure men.) Should we start taking a closer look at how much a man really has to offer? Since men are so willing to admire women’s breasts, let us return the compliment and give you points on your tackle.
It’s tempting in a get-your-own-back sort of way. But of course I’m being facetious. By doing that we would be missing the point. We would be perpetuating yet another damaging stereotype and encouraging the detrimental effects of the already rife over-emphasis of physical attributes.
No, what I’d like to see is people just taking a little more notice of what is said or written. We’re so damned sensitive about race. Our race radar is extremely fine-tuned. When it comes to sexism, it’s as if we’re looking down the wrong end of the binoculars. I would be interested to see what would happen to a Thought Leader contributor who posted an overtly racist blog. Yet there are one or two around here who are quite brazenly sexist.
I’m not going to single them out. I’d like you to find them for yourself. And while you’re at it, could you also explain to me why, out of the 134 contributors on Thought Leader, only 36 are women?
Claire Baker is many things too numerous to mention. She writes because she has to. She argues because she likes to
84 Responses to “Let’s put our breasts together for …”
I’m immensely proud of you.
Also, I’d like to support the National Packed Package Day. Not because I’m facetious, but because I’m a bit of a pervert and like the idea of tit-for-tat.
Thanks Claire, I suspect that it’s not brought up or discussed because of the preponderance of males in this and other forums and quite frankly men just do not seem to realise how offensive they are, pretty much all day. Just for the record, and also to prevent being labelled, I am happily married have children, wear make up (every now and then!) like shopping and shave my armpits everyday (mostly because I live in a desert and never wear anything with sleeves!)
I must confess I did not know about National Cleavage Day and had to look up the reference, am relieved to note that is a publicity campaign and not another Zuma ooopsie.
I recently read some replies from black American woman (cannot remember where) who were answering the question ‘what would you prefer, a woman president or a black president’ I was astounded, perhaps because I am not black? That each one of those woman answered that they are black first and women second and that it would be more important to have a black president. Perhaps that provides some background to why it is that racism elicits such vehement responses and sexism does not.
I have to agree with you, I am confronted daily with sexism from men of all ages and it makes my blood boil. I will never forget my first week at a large financial institution where I had to listen to a male manager expound on all the reasons why he hires women of certain ages and looks, these reasons ranged from the fact that woman of a certain age are too scared to challenge his authority, that they are too insecure to look for a better job, that they are too ugly to make trouble in the office with married men who are so often tempted to stray and that they will not distract those same men in the office … that they are too old and ugly to have babies and of course, the main driver, that they don’t expect to be paid very much.
He then went on to say that he employs woman (we are talking about professional woman here, with one or more degrees who are experts in their chosen field) only for desk and administrative work because they are so efficient and handle three times as much work as men do and they do not complain as much as men. He never employs women to interact with clients or deal with upper management, because other men do not take woman seriously!
I am sorry to say that this attitude was prevalent in so many of the male managers I met and had to work with, although to be honest most of the other men preferred to hire more attractive women (even though they were a distraction apparently). Most of the hirings of woman done at higher levels of management were done because of a need for quotas, this was freely and publicly admitted and there was a general attitude by male managers that such women were not to be taken seriously, if a decision was taken by the woman manager that the man did not like, it was invariably discussed in the men’s bathroom and she was vetoed.
This does not of course refer to all men, I worked with some progressive highly appreciative men also, but the bottom line is that woman are stereotyped and labelled according to their attributes and not aptitude and this is the norm rather than the exception.
Is there really such a thing - National Cleavage Day? I never heard of it thank D-g!
But I know exactly what you mean. I had a huge row with one of the big bosses here because he was being patronising about keeping the tiling, varnishing, glazing etc for the women to do as they are better at it. He claimed that because he was saying something nice about women he wasn’t being sexist. Just because he did not actually say that women would not be employed in the actual building process - only in the finishing process - he thought he was promoting employment for previously disadvantaged people (women). He refused to see that reserving jobs for people according to the shape of their genitals (as I accused him) was sexist. His biggest argument was that he has been in the construction industry for almost 40 years (the old fart) and he knows what he is talking about and women are better at those jobs.
Come on Claire, get a life (or some cleavage)! Us guys have to put up with the Valentines Day rubbish every year.
You are about to get allot more cheezed off…
This is the latest and apparently women all over the world are falling over their feet to repay their men for Valentines Day. Looking forward to your column on this day…
I am a proud feminist and I love men and I like looking good. That old stereotype about feminists being unshaven man-haters is just another example of ignorance and mental laziness.
It never ceases to amaze me that blatantly sexist behaviour is acceptable but racist behaviour isn’t. In any debate that starts with “…but women shouldn’t be…” I like to substitute the word ‘woman’ with ‘Black’, ‘White’, ‘Coloured’ or ‘Indian’. Suddenly that same statement seems wrong.
I know that National Cleavage Day is supposed to be light-hearted fun but, like you, it makes me uncomfortable. Once again we are reduced to a mere body part, rather than a whole person. When I walked into work on the day, several men jokingly stared at my breasts and said they were allowed to because of National Cleavage Day. Now these are not men I would describe as being sexist pigs - they’re just normal ordinary men and I like all of them. But for that one moment I wanted to smack them. I didn’t want to be subjected to that.
I am so tired of the casual sexism that pervades our society and of that sexism being dismissed as either inconsequential or as being figments of an over-imaginative female mind. Sexism does exist. It is damaging. It has to stop.
Would you have wondered that most women are too physically self-conscious to try and put ink in a paper and use analytical or creative skills and so be shortlisted as one of the TLs Contributors?
Maybe some have tried but their articles were viewed by the Online Editors as either too short or too simple since they are themselves walking consice dictionaries/thesaurus! Well most of women like me have tried to contribute and still turned down so i’m still trying to captivate some editor to be able to select my story as the next Thing…know what I mean! Or maybe it should revolve around Politics/ Racism and so forth. Eish I must say you really angry over Wonder Bro Ad Campaign
Did it really tickle your senses so much that you diss what has been highlighted about Racism? Remember Racism and Sexism will not just simply vanish you seem to be sexist too…read between the lines
Lets simply nurture one another especially women on how to “Write for the Media”
i agree with you, and think you raise some important points about how you’re just seen as such a bad sport/nag if you bring up sexism…. one of the things that i really didn’t get about the whole cleavage day thingie is that it was ostensibly in support of breast cancer awareness… the logic????
okay, perhaps i’m being too literal, but i really think it’s in bad taste to use the cleavage as a symbol in this regard - espesh when there are so many images around breast cancer awareness that celebrate women who’ve had to have masectomy’s….
get some perspective on April 8th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
The debate around racism is sickening, but the limited attention sexism enjoys even more so.
It’s in a society where anything goes that morals are tossed out the window and men think they carry a tag that allows them to “do as they wish”. Not all men, but certainly most of them.
I think the numbers game you’re throwing at the Thought Leader posse about the lack of female contributors is futile. I’ve tried to find females for contributing on my blog specifically, but ended up with three males.
However, this does not detract from a very important and well highlighted issue.
I despise the remarks about women being ugly, or feminist or manly whenever they raise the issue of sexism.
Hence I think it’s time a man raises this issue and shoots his mouth off about it. It’s about time we (men) stop bitching and moaning about racism and Steve Hofmeyr being the Antichrist, and maybe catch a wake up call to what’s happening to our…OUR women out there. Our as in South African women of any race, age, size or shape…
Sure, it’s probably not your wife, your daughter, your sister or even you baby daughter…but what if it was?
What would you write about then? Zuma? I hope not.
I bet if you could get half the Thought Leader contributors to stop writing about racism, smell some well toasted coffee and look beyond their narrow minded vision, they might realise a more pressing issue that’s so much more frightening than just calling someone a k…..oops. Whatever…
Good points, guys. Very valid. Only problem is that your ire smacks of the same righteous indignation espoused by the first militant feminists (the vagina and speculum) brigade whose railing against women as sex objects always struck me as just the flip side of the puritanical Victorian attitude that decreed that women should never show off any flesh, lest they tempt men into all sorts of bad behaviour.
So, while I salute your principled stand against objectification (worthy as it is) and would love to join in, I’m too busy trying to find a Merry Widow in my size.
Well stated. Behaviours which hurt, humiliate or exploit women generally have their roots in sexism/mysogyny. I don’t believe we will make real headway in curbing these abuses unless we take seriously the enabling social attitudes; as we do with racism. Women are also often far too quiet, for all the reasons you illustrated. Problem is, if women do not themselves complain nothing will change.
Claire, you’re right. It’s a fear of being accused of lacking humour that so many of us just go along and pretend make like the female body is like a poster to be displayed, made fun of and generally treated as a commodity… And I’ve always contended that lobola is trading in body parts. Whether they say it’s to thank the parents or to pay for the woman bearing kids bearing her new family name or whatever other story they cook up to justify it, it’s commerce in women! And our constitution has no problem with it. Something’s not right here!!
Well said sista!
It’s amazing how the word ‘Feminism’ has picked up some negative connotations over the years, even if all it is, is a posh word for a woman who respects herself and stands up (speaks out) to be counted.
I agree with your thoughts on how blatant sexism goes on unabaited, and it’s as if our South African men have gotten a new lease on chauvanism.
I do think however, that the woman in you has taken the emotion a bit far by slating people’s responses to racism in our country. By making light of topics that have been the cause of much of the mess our country is in, we’re saying it’s not big deal, lets get over the wee-stew-eating K’s, adnd get on with more important things.
The way to tackle the issue, is for us to get into the habit of making as big a row as we do about racism, because it is equally important, and its a topic that should stand on its own. By discussing it on the backdrop of the racism-obsessed reactions of South Africans, you become another angry woman who’s whining because she’s not getting attention. Discuss sexism on its own, so that you don’t dilute the value of raising this sad, sad situation in which women find themselves in this country.
women are the reason why most us of are working hard trying to earn a rand, they are the reason why the world is turning.They are the most beautiful , complex beings God ever created. They need to be loved, appreciated and adored,Its NATURAL, just let it be.
Racism carries far higher penalties than does sexism. Unless of course one happens, through genetics, to be on the side of the fence of the pigmentally endowed - where racial traffic is apparantly acceptable in one direction only. In this case racism is reduced to the “casual” level of sexism.
Catchy, misleading title. Imagine most okes’ dissapointment when they click on the link…
“Here comes another hairy-armpitted (in the words of one of the illustrious contributors here), raging feminist.”
Heh. That ‘illustrious’ contributor would be The Sumo (http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/thesumo/2008/04/02/in-the-eye-of-the-beheld/) - just so you know where to direct that hate mail.
On a serious note; you’re spot-on, Claire. The sad reality is that we’re generally still a bunch of Homo (barely) erectuses when it comes to gender issues in this country.
But with a national IQ average of 72, do you blame us?
I happened to be in Jhb on Friday when I saw the posters for National Cleavage Day. I don’t think this day has made it southwards to Cape Town, despite its claims to nationalism. This does not mean that Cape Town is any less sexist and any less superficial than Jhb.
It may mean, however, that Jhb thinks it’s a country.
Anyway, I do agree with most of what you say. And by the way, I am a hairy armpitted feminist. Not raging as much as I used to when I was 12 - 30 years old, though.
It’s not clear whether you think we should be more irate about sexism and less about racism or whether we should be equally irate. I believe they deserve our ire equally.
Well said, Claire! TLS, I think it’s important that all issues of prejudice be taken equally seriously - racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, Islamaphobia, anti-Semitism, whatever.
First step for getting issues of sexism taken more seriously is to find political, cultural and religious leaders who take women and their contribution seriously. Communities across the country follow their leaders’ examples and don’t see anything wrong with belittling and abusing women.
I must say, though, I suspect the whole world is anti-women and deeply “macho” in its views, attitudes and behavious, so SA is not alone in being a society that is cruel to women.
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
And heaven forbid you’re a good-looking woman, somehow you’re not supposed to have a brain, let alone be a feminist!
I’ve found the best come back is to say the sorts of things men would say about a woman, to a man! It shocks the heck out of them & makes them very uncomfortable!
If we all become nudists, the problem of “cleavage day” will go away. We could introduce “big dick” competitions with a ladies only jury. The award can go to either dick, the physical or the perceptive one.
Judging from some of the replies, a familiar tired accusation rears its head - women who protest about the way they are treated and portrayed have no sense of humour (and according to one reader - small breasts). That kind of comment says everything about the writer (none of it complimentary) and nothing about the subject.
I didn’t get from Claire’s piece that she downplays racism. I understood her to mean that racism is seen as more serious than sexism. Personally I think that both should be given equal weight.
I’m just so bloody fed up with the way society treats women and expects us to put up and shut up. We are expected to conform to narrow stereotypes or else be prepared to be mocked and criticised for our ‘faults’. Stuff that! No man (or woman) is going to dictate to me what defines a woman.
Francesca - the point is to take “sex” out of the equality equation. That women can wear mini skirts, wear too much or too little, just like a piece of clothing and it has NOTHING to do with sex. Victorian women being made to cover up too much was because the woman’s image was about ’sex’, the girl having to flaunt her breasts on a day is about ’sex’. And if it isn’t, perhaps the ad guys need to make a DAMN good argument as to how it isn’t. How about the sexist men amongst that gender explaining their reasoning for once, instead of blowing it off with an unintelligent “lighten up” or “we are just made like that” comment?
There are so many complex beautiful sides to a woman, why is our sexul role, whether demure or triumphed, the one that is flaunted at the top of so many cultures and society’s lists?
Hightlight Breast Cancer = show a full bosom.
Does that mean - Highlight Cervical Cancer = show a well shaven clit? And Highlight Abuse of Women & Girls = Show off some bruises and broken bones?
How about some sensitivity for the fear and stress a woman with breast cancer has to go through when she is diagnosed or must choose a treatment option.
Thanks for this Claire!
I am a feminist, in all my flaws and beauties and don’t believe I need to say my measurements to accredit my words.
This sort of thing demeans women. It makes women the subjects of voyeurism and lust.
Yes, it’s a marketing ploy by Playtex, but the women who participate should not be proud of lowering standards and cheapening themselves.
Maybe they’re already cheap.
Claire’s piece did not appear to me to down-play racism but seemed to ask the question whether sexism is any less abhorrent than racism and the further question why don’t readers / writers comment on it more often. The second question I believe is the one to be answered, more articles like this, more comments like these and lets see what comes out of it.
I wonder gentlemen if you know how offensive it is to be reduced to body parts? Do you realise how difficult it is to have a meeting and be conscious that the man opposite you cannot take his eyes off your breasts or legs? Can you concentrate on breasts and economics or financial statistics at the same time? Did you hear what went down in the meeting, or are you going to ask for minutes from me afterward because you weren’t paying attention?
I’d like to hear from the men on this forum, do you really think it is polite to stare at a women’s breasts while you talk to her, do you think all women like that? do you think we are flattered? Has it ever occurred to you that when you do things like that, the same woman may be smiling at you, but is actually thinking what a twat you are?
I think there are far larger problems facing women than National Cleavage Day. This, as the writer pointed out, is a piece of fluff, transient commercial bullshit about as meaningful as the Archer ’s Aqua Hotty of the Day (which dealt with men, tried to subvert language by adding “uploadable” to the lexicon, and so forth).
By focusing on something this small and trivial, all of feminism is being trivialized, and opened up to scorn, which is a pity, because Feminisms task is as crucial as ever.
Just to say that I agree with you and enjoyed your article immensely. The way women are portrayed does influence the way they get treated. Unfortunately in SA and Africa they get treated like s…. Female circumcision is something we should all be jumping up and down about. The King of Swaziland and Zululand chosing a new virgin bride every year is ridiculous. The high rates of rape are atrocious. Where I may differ from other readers is that I feel that pornography is also a major problem. I don’t care about freedom of expression. Most pornography encourages men to see women as mere accesspories to thier cheap wank fantasies and encourages them to oppress women. I mean how many men could sustain an erection long enough to satisfy two women for over twenty minutes. That is just physically impossible and merely plays into male fantasies. Yet it seems to be a fairly regular feature of most porn movies as shown on e TV. I feel that we need to serioulsy look at pornography and the way women are portaryed in advertising as part of a campaign to develop a respect for women as human beings who are just as capable as men of doing difficult stuff like being surgeons or pilots or policepeople. The state of women in Africa is terrible. We all need to do something about it.
I am a married man with several daughters just for the information of those who may think I am some sort of closted hairy armpitted butch lesbian feminist.
Power to you (and your cleavage) Clare! I read about “National Cleavage Day” in Australia and nearly choked. Particularly in light of your abuse stats. and the recent taxi-rape story.
In response, I wrote this to a friend: “I thought the coverage was a spoof (bad choice of adjective? ;o) but I read tonight that it’s not an April Fool’s joke.
Hey, I’m proud of my ample cleavage…I have a fine set of boobs (if I do say so myself) but a national advertising campaign in honour of cleavage??? Is there a national “Mine’s Bigger than Yours” day? Nope, I guess not. Maybe there’s a “Size Doesn’t Matter Day”, though.”
Why is it that some men feel they still have a license to say the most vile, sexist things to women (witness some of the responses here) when they demand their rights be upheld or dare to write publicly about these issues? (I’ve been similarly verbally assaulted on Australian news sites). And the “go shave your chest” line is really tiresome, guys! Like other women here, I’m intelligent, attractive, educated, career-oriented and “stacked” - but I’m not yours to pillory as you try to alleviate your own sexual insecurity and thirst for social power.
Great point about racism drowning out its evil twin, sexism. I tried to bring it up a few times in the the debates around the launch of the Forum of Black Journalists. Let me point out (again) that while many senior positions at newspapers are held by black men (Leshilo, Khumalo, Makanya, etc) there are only two female newspaper editors. Two.
The front cover of this month’s The Media magazine has the photographs of eight editors of daily newspapers. Four of these are black. None are female.
Clair, baby, please…
I have noticed that women want to be sexy …, and being sexy is a good thing! - It need not stand in the way to being clever or talented: in fact it’s just another talent!
I’m a red blooded man, and I’m not ashamed ro admit that there is very little in this world that “bangs my gong” (an old Chinese proverb) more than a big healthy pair of breasts. Some men like legs, some like lips, some like feet, some like minds. Hey: I like breasts, and many women with big breasts like that about me! - simply put, they also enjoy being appreciated! - For there own personal talents.
There’s nothing wrong with being a man, a woman, a geek, a black, a white, a drunk, a religious nut, a lawyer, a what-not (whatever they call you in their corporation): but there’s certainly nothing wrong with being a humanitarian!
For the record: “I love big breasts!” hang loose!
e-mail me for my number and I’ll educate you …
Finally, well done, I for one am also sick of this cleavage day nonsense, yes lets have a national penis day, but of course that won’t happen, it will belittle the so called men and women or whatever they call themselves to announce a day for the mens private parts. What a joke.
I am also very feminine, like pretty things, clothes lingere etc, but really, this cleavage day is just taking the mickey out of us.
Hey Girls, I’m sorry! I admit I do so enjoy a beautiful woman…
Claire – What a thought provoking blog, and the response is also great. I don’t know that we’ll quickly solve the problem of sexism any more than we’ll solve the other bigoted views that are currently fashionable. Discussing them though makes a difference.
I live in rural Kwa Zulu and I get great sense of pride when I see a guy carrying his baby through town. Last night, I watched a big burly man in the supermarket holding his 2 year old girl in his arms while his wife pushed the trolley round doing the shopping. The daughter was staring adoringly at her father. Later I saw the family walking to the taxi rank, the man still holding the girl and one of the shopping bags while the wife had the other two bags. WOW!
Even ten years ago, the wife would have walked five paces behind the man and carried the child as well as all the groceries (probably on her head).
Hey, people can call me as a misguided white male trying to impose western culture or whatever else they like. I have to admit though that I enjoy seeing a unified family where husband and wife face life’s trials as partners.
I totally agree Claire. The latest time my feminist ire was raised was when I heard a story from a (male) friend of mine of how he was taken for lunch at Teazers as part of a job interview. Sies!
Fair go Claire, great contribution,
Sorry to point out that neither the URL for this site our your title is acceptable to Facebook Wall postings, I was wanting to share this with a few mates, but its hitting a nerve.
There is nothing wrong with hairy armpits or backs ! Good luck with holding the Chauvinist hordes back.
You know Claire, maybe you should just check out statistics in first world countries and realise that the outraged feminist is no longer the oppressed, but the oppressor. That feminism has not only liberated women but is now in a position where the numbers of women writers (not in some minor SA online mag) but of books hugely outnumber men. Where the number of university women students is so disproportionate - they’re having to try AA for men. Where male high-school graduates consistantly get lower marks than women. Yet careful and scientific testing shows no substantial difference in average intelligence (men have wider IQ distribution, but the same average), but merely a probability of differences in certain skills. Women have played ‘oppressed victim’ to the point where evaluation is now skewed to those skills, and actively damaging male chances of being equal. I don’t want women, and certainly not my partner, as my inferior. I rather wonder why a woman would! Yet listening to feminist rants that’s what you do want. Men are on average physically stronger and larger than women. They’re as intelligent. A micron on of logic instead of outrage says: If Western men were really the evil brutes feminists fantasize about, all women would be in real abject subjugation, not actually ascendent over men in the West. There is nothing heroic about modern feminists. The 1910 ones were great women who really did wonderful things for women, civilization and the West. The modern feminist is a jackal who would never dare confront real sexual discrimination (as Emily Pankhurst did)- as happens in tribal patiarchal societies in the third world and to millions of women suffering under theocratically enforced inferiority. Nooo, you can’t criticise THOSE men - because they’ll beat you to a pulp. And besides it’s not PC. So feminists go on making a fuss about trivia, having a wonderful kicking victims who are too polite to kick back. Maybe modern feminists need cleavage day. It’d give me something to admire about them. They’ll tear shreds off George Bush (who won’t do anything back), but are very very very silent about Osama bin liner.
Can’t believe this topic. Firstly, I don’t like big breasts, and sorry if offend anyone but fake breasts are a big turn-off, rather small ones than fake ones.
And just for the record, I may be wrong but I am sure that Cleavage Day was the invention of a woman with really nice boobs, not a man. Last time I checked, the marketing manager was a woman.
With regards to Penis day, what an idea. Maybe it will help men get over the penis complex when everyone get it out in the open…and no I am not gay!
Bwaaa-ha-ha-ha!! “National Cleavage Day”? Gawd - only in South Africa!
But seriously, nice article, Claire. Although I realise this “holiday” is supposed to be light-hearted, does S.A. really need such a thing, especially after what happened to that poor woman at the taxi ranks? I think not!
I too am a married, attractive (or so I’m told) feminist who shaves her armpits but I agree with you that surely every woman is a feminist. And I definitely agree with you that sexism is seriously overshadowed by racism - and wrongly so. Both are equally evil, and should be treated as such.
Whilst it’s true that there are countries more chauvinistic than S.A., it’s also true that S.A. men are nonetheless amongst the worst chauvinists (please note I’m generalising - I know there are exceptions). You especially notice it when you’ve lived on other continents, as I have (Europe and the US). S.A. men are living in the dark ages when it comes to the equal treatment of women, and sadly it’s pretty much up to S.A. women to enlighten them. So don’t give up, ladies - fight the good fight and to hell with those who say you’ve got no sense of humour!
The only reason i read your blog is because of the title. See Sex sells- you tricked me into reading your (otherwise articulate)article.Tits and bums have sold more cars insurance etc than any thoughful arguments.Show a big beautiful woman on a car and the man thinks he can get some such woman if he bought that car (on a subliminal level) and he will buy that car.Car sold
On national cleavage day more women will show their wares than on any other day. If you got it flaunt it. Men dont mind at all.If you dont want to show it- hide it
Women are voting against you claire.You are like Mugabe of Zimabwe people vote against you but you still say they are wrong.
Dave. I am just curuious, I see you make no mention of statistics dealing with rape, assaults on women and murder of women by their significant others in first world or third world countries, why is that.
Sexism is a big problem. I don’t think any of us have any illusions about that, but for goodness’ sake, Claire, sometimes ‘girls just wanna have fun’. National Cleavage Day is a silly marketing campaign, which happens to be fun for most women with a cleavage worth showing off. Why on earth can we not love and celebrate our bodies, our breasts?
Your kind of zealotry is exactly what turns most women off feminism and provokes all those hairy-legged lesbian stereotypes - resulting in weakened and fragmented support for the battle against sexism.
In choosing to show cleavage when we feel like it, we are exercising the very rights you claim to be fighting for on our behalf. Consider this - feminists can be just as dogmatic as chauvinist males when it comes to dictating what women can, can’t, should and shouldn’t do with our bodies. Lighten up!
You’re missing the point completely. We are not against light-hearted fun and no one is advocating the wholesale cover-up of the female body. There is absolutely nothing wrong with celebrating and enjoying the beauty of the female body.
What rankles about publicity stunts like National Cleavage Day is that they are cheap and lazy. Supposedly the aim of the day is to raise awareness of breast cancer. How many people actually get that message? Instead, what comes through from the campaign is that it’s a day when men are given carte blanche to openly ogle women’s breasts and forget that those breasts are actually attached to a human being.
What we are talking about here is objectification of women and the cheap and thoughtless use of the female body to sell a product. Women are more than just a collection of body parts. We’re complete physical, intellectual and emotional beings.
And if you think Claire is strident then you live a sadly sheltered life. Men in SA know nothing about just how radical feminists can get. SA men have it easy, very very easy.
Good stuff. Claire, Odette and SWP, how about becoming regular thought leaders. It would make the daily page more relevant and interesting. I wish women wouldn’t protest so about shaving - it is after all just to look like a young girl who is still hairless. Is that what you want?
“What rankles about publicity stunts like National Cleavage Day is that they are cheap and lazy” I can’t get to work without seeing men and women wearing basically nothing and staring down at me. Fine, it’s cheap, sure, showing a pair of tits is easy. And, so what? I fail to see how it says that women are in any way worse or inferior to men. All I can possibly get from it is that society considers cleavage to be attractive. And so what? The cheap and thoughtless objectification of women to sell products is just part of the cheap and thoughtless objectification of anything to sell product, from love to faith to fidelity.
In fact, the ability to display cleavage is one of the things that feminists have been fighting over. Folks keep mentioning the “taxi rank” incident and that was about women wearing clothing that was seen as too “revealing” or not feminine enough; basically getting dressed too sexy.
So, fine, there’s a focus on boob’s from a bra company. This same company makes a bra that the writer of this article admits to owning pairs of. This bra is meant to make women’s breast’s perter and “sexier”. How can one go from buying garments to draw attention to the breasts to reviling campaigns that do the very same thing?
And, finally, by picking on trivial matters like this, Feminism is being opened up to scorn, justified or unjustified. You want to discuss feminism, then talk about the horrific female abuse in rural areas, or about how to prevent rape effectively, or how to help women who have suffered female circumcision. These are vital issues, that truly have to do with actual liberation, and actual freedom, and not just fashion and taste. To pretend that National Cleavage day is important at all is to trivialize over a century of Female Struggle.
At the end of the day, National Cleavage day is nothing but a pumped up piece of corporate puffery; it’s fashion, nothing more. If you don’t like it, then don’t partake in it. To get all in a twist because a product that women buy to “improve” their breasts has a campaign to draw attention to these self same breasts is, like the campaign itself, nothing but a distraction from the genuine issues that remain in society.
Just in case I was in any doubt about the day’s legitimization of open lechery, I have to tell you that my own brother (*sigh*) and his two male housemates actually went to Sandton City last Friday with the express purpose of checking out the women. I even heard 5fm’s Sam critising DJ Fresh for doing the same thing. So I’m not just imagining things.
@Haiwa - of course I tricked you. I did it because I wanted men to read this. And I thought it highly unlikely that men choose to read an article titled “Down with Cleavage Day!: Another Feminist Rant”. Because you see, if you take the trouble to look around this particular site, you’ll find that most of the readers (at least those who comment regularly) and by far the majority of the contributors, are men. I’m sure that many unevolved, sexist fools like yourself will have read this and dismissed it, and so be it. But if I managed make just one or two men (or women) give a little thought to something that they otherwise would have allowed to pass unoticed, then I will not have taken the risk of writing this in vain.
@Afrodite, I have a hell of a sense of humour. And you can ask my friends and they’ll tell you that I am quite frequently the life and soul of the party. I once went to a sixties party wearing nothing but bodypaint. I assure you, I have no problem with lightening up and letting it all hang out when I want to.
But as Odette says, you have missed the point. The fact is that women do not enjoy the freedom to just “celebrate their bodies.” If they do, they are harrassed, often to the point of rape. I am fortunate - I am tall and strong and have been able to deflect the many unwanted and overly physical advances that I have been subjected to, both in social and professional environments. But not all women are that fortunate. What country are you living in?? Did you not read about what the taxi drivers did to the mini-skirt-wearing “celebrating-her-body” woman? They digitally raped her while security guards looked on. Later, at the protest staged against this the men sang that g-ddamn Zuma anthem at her. And you want me to lighten up! I am one of the most soft-core feminists that I know. I have female friends who are probably embarrassed at how “light” this article is.
@Dave, I’m not even going to attempt to argue with you. You’ve got some issues man. You should see a therapist. I’ve been called many things in my life, but a jackal? Wow. That’s a first.
@Ahz, for us to be regular contributors, we would have to be invited. And as I pointed out, there are quite a few more male than female contributors here. Maybe the editors are having difficulty finding willing female contributors. Maybe all the women are too busy. I am sure that they searched very hard for them. How else can we explain the disparity?
“Did you not read about what the taxi drivers did to the mini-skirt-wearing “celebrating-her-body” woman?”
Yes, that is a real feminist issue. And your response is to criticize sex- and body-positive female imagery? I’d say the country needs more, not less of this.
“Fine, it’s cheap, sure, showing a pair of tits is easy. And, so what?”
So what? So what? Are you actually seriously asking that question? I hate to get personal but that question is so dumb that I can’t get stupid enough to answer.
Cleavage Day is SUPPOSED to draw attention to breast cancer (it’s not about bras). What the day ACTUALLY achieves is that it makes men think it’s ok to openly leer at women and ogle their breasts. Therefore it doesn’t achieve its aim. The cause that it claims to promote is not even a blip on the horizon. It is silly, stupid and demeaning and women (and men) have the right to say, “we don’t like it and we don’t want it”.
Cleavage Day is but an EXAMPLE of the objectification of women and the manner in which women are viewed and portrayed in the media and elsewhere.
Feminism is not only about the physical and sexual abuse of women. Feminism is about women being viewed and treated as complete human beings, with equal standing to men. That encompasses all aspects of a woman’s being, included the way she is viewed in the media. So raising issues like National Cleavage Day is in now way trivialising the issue.
SWP -I can dig up the stats if you like. They are a lot worse in the third world, although the recording of them is not reliable or similar. However it is not politically correct to point that out. I think something like 1:4 SA women are so abused, which is totally unacceptable. Further research points out that the abusers are not 25% of males, but a far smaller proportion, who I would cheerfully have hanged. In other words about 90% of men here are not abusers. A bit of research will show the vast majority of men (even in SA) are also very opposed to such mistreatment of anyone. Some of us have also been victims of this, and the treatment of such victims has been appalling too. I have no sympathy for rapists or wife/partner abusers. However feminists are doing the racist trick: ie. ‘almost all violent crimes in SA are commited by black perpetrators, therefore all black people are criminals’ - which is patently as untrue, as the assumption that all males are abusers because a despicable small percentage are. Abuse is certainly worst in countries like Saudi. Now if feminists want to protest about that - especially in a country with strict Sharia law - I would be applauding them as the most couragous and wonderful of people. If this article had been about abuse, rape or even compulsion to wear a headscarf or forced marriage I would have applauded it. As it was a whine about trivia which no woman is forced to participate in, I thought it worth shredding. It’s like a whine about someone opening the door for woman. I do that. I do it for older people. Disabled people. I do that for people with a load of groceries. My buddy Fred, who is none of the above. Does that make me a chauv - or polite and considerate? If cleavage day is the worst that women have to complain about, then they really have nothing relevant to moan about. Yet there are REAL vicious crimes against women -rape, abuse, second class citizenship to be opposed. To ignore those and complain about cleavage day is pretty weak, isn’t it? It’s like a policeman ignoring a murder (because he might get hurt) but pouncing on a litterbug.
“However feminists are doing the racist trick: ie. ‘almost all violent crimes in SA are commited by black perpetrators, therefore all black people are criminals’”
I’m a feminist and I’ve never held this opinion. Neither has any woman I know. You’re making a gross generalisation based on your own experiences and presenting that as fact. State it as your opinion because that is what it is - not fact.
“Yet there are REAL vicious crimes against women -rape, abuse, second class citizenship to be opposed. To ignore those and complain about cleavage day is pretty weak, isn’t it?”
No one here has elevated the issue of the objectification of women above rape, abuse and murder. You are making an assumption that has no basis in fact. One of the aspects of feminism is that we are more than capable of deciding for ourselves what causes we want to take up. We don’t need anyone to prescribe to us what we should and should not care about. So thank you for pointing out the error of our ways but we are quite grownup enough to make our own decisions and form our own opinions.
Abuse of any kind is abhorrent to any right-thinking woman (and man). I dare you to find a single woman here who is not incensed at the level of crime against women in this country (or elsewhere for that matter). This topic happens to be about the portrayal of women in the media and the objectification of women through silly campaigns like National Cleavage Day - hence the comments. A post on rape and other forms of abuse would draw comments in response to that topic. Do not make the shallow assumption that because women are against NCD that they don’t care about more serious topics.
“It’s like a whine about someone opening the door for woman.”
I love it when a man opens a door for me. I think it’s good manners and I always respond with a smile and a thank you. Women who respond rudely to such a gesture suffer from a lack of manners, so please don’t blame that on feminism. True feminism espouses respect for all, including men.
“Cleavage Day is SUPPOSED to draw attention to breast cancer (it’s not about bras). What the day ACTUALLY achieves is that it makes men think it’s ok to openly leer at women and ogle their breasts.”
I’m pretty sure that the Playtex actually wants to sell bra’s. When giant corporations are in the picture it’s all about the profit, I find. But that’s a pure aside.
Why are none of these comments being directed at Wonderbra itself? Surely Wonderbra is a product that’s designed, whose very reason for existence, is to make breasts more visually attractive. But, somehow, Cleavage Day, a marketing gimmick, for that bra, is somehow worse than the bra itself?
You claim that Cleavage Day is a license for men to ogle women and treat them like objects; somehow, this isn’t what filtered down to me. You also say it’s supposed to draw attention to breast cancer; it seems then that the real quibble you have is that you consider it’s creative execution poor.
The breast is a secondary sexual organ, attractive to the male psyche. Wearing a flattering bra is not unfeminist and noticing an attractive pair is not unfeminist. It’s only when you value a woman based on her boobs, and not the content of her character, that you begin to be unfeminist.
I think it disingenuous in the extreme to state that the Cleavage Day campaign promotes or even condones the ogling of women. Believing that a man could think that casts us in an unnecessarily harsh light, and makes us defensive. If a man is going to ogle a woman, he is going to do it whether or not it was national cleavage day. Raging on about national cleavage day is not going to change the culture that allows ogling. I fear I differ with Ms Dworkin and am strongly in the Lipstick Feminist camp.
Yes I do consider the creative execution to be very poor and I stand by my opinion that the campaign encourages men to behave lewdly. Maybe you’re fortunate enough to only mix with highly enlightened men who would not dream of behaving like hormone-fueled adolescents but the men I work with viewed the day as a licence to openly stare at women’s breasts. Other women have reported the same experiences. How is your experience more valid than ours?
Yes, breasts are sexually attractive to men (and some women too) and I think there is nothing inherently wrong with admiring them. I admire them too and I love my own. None of the women who posted comments (including me) has advocated against women making themselves look and feel attractive so trying to tie that into your argument is pointless.
What some of us object to is the gratuitous use of the female body in the media. It has become such a part of our lives that to most it is merely a backdrop now but that doesn’t make it right.
And as to why none of the comments have been addressed to Wonderbra - I will email them with my thoughts on the matter and encourage other women to do the same. What will you do?
@Odette
“And as to why none of the comments have been addressed to Wonderbra - I will email them with my thoughts on the matter and encourage other women to do the same. What will you do?”
Mostly what I do is stand up for women when some guy says, never when there’s a woman around, that, eg, women make worse businesspeople. What I mostly do is insist, loudly and clearly, that men and women are equal and egalitarian. What I won’t do is waste my time on trivialities and “write emails” to uncaring corporations over non issues. I address my concerns to the men acting badly around me, where I CAN make a difference.
“…the men I work with viewed the day as a licence to openly stare at women’s breasts. Other women have reported the same experiences. How is your experience more valid than ours?”
The men I worked with didn’t even notice it was cleavage day. None of the women I know, and I’ve asked them, based on this, experienced any kind of ogling of any sort. How is your experience any more valid than theirs? Personal anecdote is not an argument.
Laying the problem at the feet of Cleavage Day is blindly missing the obvious problem, yours being that the men you work with think it’s alright, under some circumstance, to ogle a woman in a professional situation. Perhaps your time would be better spent addressing these men directly, indicating in no uncertain terms that it’s unacceptable, than railing against the utterly unimportant.
And, finally, you may have noticed that the men responding to this thread feel threatened and demeaned, relegated to the position of “dogs” that can’t help but “hump”. Focusing on flim-flam like national cleavage day unnecessarily puts men and women into conflict and endangers the very cause, Feminism, that you purport to espouse.
@Odette
“None of the women who posted comments (including me) has advocated against women making themselves look and feel attractive so trying to tie that into your argument is pointless.”
It certainly seems that you are espousing a society where the depiction of women as sexually attractive (and/or active) beings be limited or prevented. My impression, from what I’ve read, and hey,I don’t know you, is that you’re advocating censorship, a censorship that centres around images of attractive women or women parts.
“Mostly what I do is stand up for women when some guy says, never when there’s a woman around, that, eg, women make worse businesspeople. What I mostly do is insist, loudly and clearly, that men and women are equal and egalitarian. What I won’t do is waste my time on trivialities and “write emails” to uncaring corporations over non issues. I address my concerns to the men acting badly around me, where I CAN make a difference.”
Why do you assume I don’t do the same? I am, in fact, one of the most vocal women in my circle of colleagues and friends about the subject of how women are treated. Why not address it with the corporations? Are they not staffed by men and women too? If you do not feel it achieves anything then don’t do it. But please don’t tell me what to do.
“The men I worked with didn’t even notice it was cleavage day. None of the women I know, and I’ve asked them, based on this, experienced any kind of ogling of any sort. How is your experience any more valid than theirs? Personal anecdote is not an argument.”
Yet you view your personal experience as an argument.
“And, finally, you may have noticed that the men responding to this thread feel threatened and demeaned, relegated to the position of “dogs” that can’t help but “hump”.”
I hadn’t noticed that men in this thread feel threatened and demeaned. Maybe you feel that way and are projecting your feelings onto others. If what you say is true then I have even less respect for those men because they curl up and sob at the far from radical criticisms expressed here. Are men that soft that they cannot handle a plainspoken woman? Why are men so uncomfortable when women express an opinion that runs contrary to expectation?
“Focusing on flim-flam like national cleavage day unnecessarily puts men and women into conflict and endangers the very cause, Feminism, that you purport to espouse”
So what you’re saying is, “shut up and don’t make trouble”? I have news for you, men and women are in conflict in a myriad of ways every day. That is no reason for any woman to refrain from voicing her opinion about anything. If anything, voicing an opinion loudly and clearly remains true to the principles of feminism.
I cannot disagree with you more LordFoom. Why is it do you think that women make up 90% of the cases relating to eating disorders? why is it that so many woman have self esteem issues and low body image? could it possibly have somthng to do with flim flam like this which you dismiss so readily. How easy is it do you think to raise a girl child in this day and age to be comfortable with her body and herself and to be confident when she is constantly exposed to half naked women in pretty much all types of media, media which glorifies beauty and suggests that this is what is required for a woman to be successfull?
Cleavage Day was used merely as an example for pete’s sake. I don’t have the time and space to cite the many many MANY other examples of overt and covert sexism that I have encountered. You are failing to see the wood for the trees by going on and on about cleavage day.
Lord Foom if you honestly do as you say and confront blatant sexism that is admirable and I salute you for it.
But please, don’t think for a minute that the small things don’t count. Small things add up. I recommend that you read the works of Ayn Rand if you are not already familiar with them. In considering the nature of evil she has shown that the evil is the irrational, willful denial and evasion of the facts of reality.
It is dangerous to write off seemingly small things as trivial. It is the apparent triviality of these sorts of things that is their most damaging quality; their ability to pass by unremarked because they are seen as being of little consequence. When others percieve something as being too trivial to bother with, that is when that thing is allowed to flourish unchecked.
I applaud the men who stand up to blatant unfairness, in any form. But that is the manner in which you have chosen to fight this evil. Please don’t undermine the efforts of others simply because you don’t see their cause or their opinions as being important enough.
Your final paragraph speaks volumes. The men feel threatened? Excuse me for not feeling particularly sympathetic towards them. Not all the men felt threatened here. Only the men who didn’t agree. And perhaps only the men who are guilty of this themselves. There were plenty who supported the argument and they didn’t come across as feeling threatened at all. If the cap fits….
I am not suggesting that what you do in your daily life is unimportant, of course it is, there are probably many feminists who would agree that complaining about issues like this is also a waste of time, probably the same feminists that believe it is a waste of time to try and change men’s attitudes, because they wont change, that resources and energy should rather be concentrated on assisting women who have been victims of abuse. What you do is important, but objecting to this bit of flim flam is also important, more so when you see how many men and women really see nothing wrong with it.
I do not think that men should so readily feel threatened by this type of complaint but should rather examine it a little more closely, take the emotion out of it and examine what it is that is being said here. It is obviously a concern to women in general, not militant raging feminists, but ordinary women, mothers, wives and sisters, the type of people responding here. It did not seem to me that the posts are trying to be hurtful, but are rather trying to point out why it is that the media, in engaging in this type of campaign, and generally, are doing little to advance equality of treatment of women.
If we want to alter social mind set, the clearest way to do this is to stop objectifying women through the media. The fact of the matter is that half naked women in ads apparently sell things. Not half naked men, but women. Now whether that is because the bulk of buying power is concentrated in the hands of men or not I don’t know I suspect it has something to do with it. If we stop portraying the so called ‘ideal’ woman as a beautiful (and naked) body and face and rather portray her as a smart, educated and accomplished woman we will be moving in the right direction.
It’s great that we have people like you in the workplace to do what you do, but it’s not enough. There are hoards of men out there who do not think like you do, and it is these men who are encouraged to believe that a woman is merely a sexual object through campaigns like this, please just look at the stats relating to rape and violence against women, and then tell me that (a) sexism does not exist; (b) that we don’t have more sexist men out there than enlightened men.
Then your assumption is erroneous. I think the female form is exceptionally beautiful and I have no qualms about anyone celebrating that beauty. However, what I do protest is the wholesale objectification of women in the mainstream media and women’s worth being measured by their bra cup size.
I don’t advocate that the media be censored. However I do advocate that women (and men for that matter) be free to voice their opinions and speak up if they feel that reasonable boundaries have been over-stepped. Business needs to realise that their consumers include women as well as men. Sexual imagery can be utilised effectively and without causing undue offense but doing so would mean actually thinking beyond the current narrow confines. For example, car ads that show barely-clothed young women draped over cars - do the manufacturers even consider that women buy those cars too? That they might feel disenchanted or alienated by the advertising gimmick? A recent television ad for a woman’s deoderant shows a young woman whimsically asking her boyfriend/husband what part of her body is his favourite part. Every woman I know cringed at that ad. None of them liked it. And they were the target audience! Speaking for myself, I usually buy a product in spite of its advertising, not because of it, and only if the product has proven itself.
Two things to the feminists. The world of fashion is a good example of exploitation of women. Now, everyone has to be thin, big boobs and nice cleavage. The message is then mainly spread through the fashion magazines.
Now, who runs the fashion industry and who buys woman’s magazines. Yet, men are blamed for women being obsessed with their figures.
Those who have it, flaunt it. Those who don’t blame men!
Yeah, I’ve read the works of Ayn Rand, for my sins. Can’t say I find her particularly enjoyable or enlightening; I’d also like to point out that The Fountainhead as Roarke raping a woman (can’t remember her name) and this being seen as a good thing, by both him and her. I’ve also read the works of Janet Radcliffe Richards and Germaine Greer, and read many an interview with the likes of Dworkin, et al. Hell, I even consider Virginia Woolf, one of the great feminists of her age, to be on of the greatest novelists of any age - and one who succeeded in making some extremely valid points about feminism.
I even agree that feminism is a radical movement, in the original latin sense of ‘root’, in that the evils of sexism need be uprooted, eradicated to the smallest piece.
Where we disagree on is that this is one of these tumours that need addressing. I tend to agree with my wife when she says she considers Cleavage Day a celebration of something uniquely female; a celebration of womanhood in a sense.
So, if Cleavage Day was an example, I feel it’s an unfitting example, certainly not one of the little things that “add up”. Admitting that women have breasts, that men find those breasts attractive and that (some) women (in the right place and time) enjoy the attention, is not sexism.
“t is dangerous to write off seemingly small things as trivial. It is the apparent triviality of these sorts of things that is their most damaging quality; their ability to pass by unremarked because they are seen as being of little consequence.”
Yes, but this IS actually of no consequence. It’s not masquerading as something irrelevant; it’s the real irrelevant deal.
“Please don’t undermine the efforts of others simply because you don’t see their cause or their opinions as being important enough.”
I joined this discussion because not because I thought it was unimportant, Ithought it was worse than unimportant: I see it as injurious to the process of Female Liberation and Sexual Reconciliation.
“There were plenty who supported the argument and they didn’t come across as feeling threatened at all. If the cap fits….”
Well, I’m not one of them, the cap doesn’t fit, and if you feel depicting me as a nasty male chauvinist is justified, well, you break my heart.
I received a rather petulant comment from LordFoom in response to a post in my blog. I felt I needed to share this with you. It seems I’m an angry woman who has bruised his delicate ego. I am confident you’ll all unite in condemnation of my cold-heartedness.
““Mostly what I do is stand up for women when some guy says, never when there’s a woman around, that, eg, women make worse businesspeople. What I mostly do is insist, loudly and clearly, that men and women are equal and egalitarian. What I won’t do is waste my time on trivialities and “write emails” to uncaring corporations over non issues. I address my concerns to the men acting badly around me, where I CAN make a difference.”
Why do you assume I don’t do the same? ”
I made no assumptions. I merely answered your question. I have no doubt that you are a vocal critic of sexism wherever you may or may not find it.
” “How is your experience any more valid than theirs? Personal anecdote is not an argument.”
Yet you view your personal experience as an argument.”
If that’s how it came across, I expressed myself poorly. I could have said that I’d spoken to a group of Catholic Nuns and they agreed with me. The intention was to indicate how easy it is to support any point of view with personal anecdotes.
“So what you’re saying is, “shut up and don’t make trouble”? ”
That is hardly what I’m telling you, but if you feel putting words in my mouth makes you a better feminist, please continue. What I am ACTUALLY trying to urge you to do is speak LOUDLY about where it’s appropriate.
“If anything, voicing an opinion loudly and clearly remains true to the principles of feminism.”
Agreed. It remains true to the principles of humanism. You’re allowed to loudly state something incorrect. I’m allowed to loudly contradict you. Listener’s are allowed to quietly make up their own minds.
“But please don’t tell me what to do.”
I’d appreciate the same courtesy.
“However I do advocate that women (and men for that matter) be free to voice their opinions and speak up if they feel that reasonable boundaries have been over-stepped.”
It is my opinion that this is exactly what I’m doing: I feel a boundary is being overstepped because of overzealousness.
“Business needs to realise that their consumers include women as well as men.”
I guess this is why there aren’t any male underwear models…oh…wait…
“For example, car ads that show barely-clothed young women draped over cars - do the manufacturers even consider that women buy those cars too?”
My personal experience, nice and untestable, is that, in fact, they look at their target markets very carefully, with polls and surveys and credit card statements to see exactly who buys their product and for what reason. And, yes, they may tap into the less savoury aspects of still-current male culture to do so. The fact that they use boobs and behind to sell certain high end motorcars speaks more about the appalling differences in income between men and women than it does about the sexism at motor car manufacturer in question.
My personal opinion is that the way to change advertising is to change the consumer. If women have equal buying power, ie earned the same for the same work, and had the same opportunities for career advancement as men, then advertising would naturally change to follow this.
“Every woman I know cringed at that ad.”
And so do I. So punish the company by not buying their product and convincing those men you know not to do the same. That’s your consumer “vote”.
“Speaking for myself, I usually buy a product in spite of its advertising, not because of it, and only if the product has proven itself.”
“Do you realise how difficult it is to have a meeting and be conscious that the man opposite you cannot take his eyes off your breasts or legs?”
I realize that it’s important to tell them it’s not acceptable to reduce someone to biology that exists only for the pleasure of yourself.
“I do not think that men should so readily feel threatened by this type of complaint but should rather examine it a little more closely, take the emotion out of it and examine what it is that is being said here. It is obviously a concern to women in general, not militant raging feminists, but ordinary women, mothers, wives and sisters, the type of people responding here.”
I agree, to a degree, but I will say that it’s the ordinary women who feel the strongest about this who will make comments here. Women like my wife, who see cleavage day as a celebration of womanhood, haven’t taken the trouble to do so, I would think.
And what it does reveal to me is a great anger among women, which would indicate that a great deal of discrimination is still taking place, and I don’t deny it and I don’t deny that we must continuously work towards egalite.
My objection is that by choosing Cleavage Day as the battle ground is essentially framing the argument for male chauvanists. Its choosing the enemy’s battleground and giving him ammunition.
And I am sorry that so many women are made to feel like pieces of meat, and I promise that I will continue to do my best to ensure that women get a fair shake from me and from society. Complaining about Cleavage Day, however, is not the way to do so.
@SWP
“t is these men who are encouraged to believe that a woman is merely a sexual object through campaigns like this, please just look at the stats relating to rape and violence against women, and then tell me that (a) sexism does not exist; (b) that we don’t have more sexist men out there than enlightened men.”
One last thing before I go home to my wife: You are right, sexism does exist, I agree fully, and in this country, particularly in the less well-oof parts, I’m fairly confidant in agreeing with you that there are more male sexists and not. This does not relate to national cleavage day, however, and saying that there IS a link between the two is logically fallacious. The most I can say about this is that it’s a contentious issue, with some studies indicating that countries with generally available hardcore porn have LESS sexual crime than other countries, for example, and other studies saying that general availability of hardcore porn is linked to less sexual satisfaction on the part of consumers. And that’s hardcore porn, not something as innoffensive and transient as Cleavage Day.
FINALLY FINALLY: Power to all you women out there.
Dave, check out Scarface’s comment, this is exactly why it is important for you to support women in this regard, because so many men actually do think like this.
Wry smile. If Claire had said ‘gee this is dumb’ and laughed at it, I’d nodded, smiled and moved on. There are idiots who’d support anything. The point is by giving it serious attention while ignoring real issues it trivialises feminism
Claire -a jackal is a predator that only that only picks on very small, near dead or the kills of larger predators. That seems quite an accurate description of your picking on trivia and avoiding real issues. I probably do need therapy - for PTS rather than whatever else. However you have missed the point of what I was saying too. Trends in SA are between 20-30 years behind the first world. The brouhaha you’re making now was very typical in the US and Europe in the ’80’s - the end result -where men are demonised, demoralised and the system is now skewed against them has been not particularly desirable for society. I am an odd fellow in that I am beating the game, over there. I’m outnumbered by women, 5:1 and oddly a few of them have been trying to help me along - because I am a male in their bastion, and they don’t see this situation as any more healthy than I see males dominating on the basis of sex. I don’t think I need it. I reckon I’ll prove myself, thank you. Not because of my sex! And yes, women are ascendent - particularly in professional writing. They’re not there by ability (some are) but because the pre-1910 is being created in reverse. Do you think that desirable? Now, by all means go and wear a mini-skirt and uncovered head and face in Riiyad and drive a car and meet strangers. That freedom should be any humans. That’s a task worth of feminism’s attention. Unfortunately that’s not one feminists are prepared to confront. Bizarrely that one seems left to conservative males.
Odette -I work in the US with a feminist who is a cult figure with with about 50 000 americans. She was the one who chewed me out as a sexist for holding a door for her. We get on very well in general. I agree that shouldn’t be an issue in feminism (and really, it is) but this sort of hypersensitivity and readiness to percieve sexual bias in anything is a problem. I’ve sat quietly while picking up my kids - and listened to several young women letching about rugby players. They weren’t valuing them for their minds. I was amused, not offended. It was normal hetrosexual lechery. Now invert that scene. They’d have been Chauvinist sexist pigs, right? There is a danger of objectivising the other sex, agreed. However, when the two are in close balance there is a danger too of hypersensitivity, and assuming everything is sexist, eventually - as has happened in the US - skewing the balance. That’s not a good thing either. Of course I can’t and won’t tell you what to get your knickers in a twist about. But feminists having a loud pile-on here (and deafening silence elsewhere)- does make it look like picking on soft targets is more attractive.
The Ayn Rand part (forget who it was now) left me in helpless laughter. Thank you. What an example to choose!
I don’t usually critise people in a topical forum such as this, but Lord Foom, Dave, you have gone too far.
Notwithstanding the fact that this cleavage day thing was used merely as an illustrative example, and not the actual thing being criticised (which was sexism in general)the two of you were far too eager to pounce on the supposed triviality of the post. For supposed self-profests “feminists” you seem awfully keen to undermine the cause.
You two aside, there are many women here who felt a degree of discomfort with, if not the day itself, at least the concept it promoted. Perhaps the fact that this particular post got a lot of attention had less to do with cleavage day and more to do with the fact that the issue of sexism is so seldom raised in this forum.
So how dare you - men - come in here and tell these women that their experiences are unimportant and that their concerns are trivial! How dare you dictate what YOU believe feminism should be about, not once, but repeatedly?
How DARE you?!
Where do you get off undervaluing an experience that you have never personally encountered and can at very best sympathise with?
I’ll take James Tobias up there over you two anyday. At least we know what we’re getting with him and don’t have to worry about being ambushed by wolf in sheeps’ clothing.
Quite frankly you can take your high-handed, condescending, I-know-what’s-best-for-you, “feminism” and bugger off.
Your feminist friend needs a few pointers about manners.
I believe that feminism is not a concept cast in stone. It is open to interpretation. If I can use your opening doors situation as an example. Not only do I appreciate when someone (man or woman) holds a door open for me, I do the same for others (men and women). As far as I am concerned it is about good manners and has nothing to do with being a man or a woman. Other feminists will disagree, as is their right.
As for your example about the women leching on rugby players. I have listened to men go on about beautiful women and it doesn’t bother me. Just as it doesn’t bother me that women do that about men. The issue under discussion is not about either sex admiring the other’s physical attributes. Rather, it is about defining women purely on their physical attributes and objectifying them in a disrespectful manner.
NCD is used merely as an example and has sparked lively and interesting debate.
The women who commented here are not strident humourless creatures who don’t want to see any man admire a beautiful woman. What we want is some moderation, reasonableness and respect, all commodities which are sadly in short supply these days.
They should be offorded the utmost respect from every male, including the standing up when they enter a room, opening doors etc etc.
Those values shouldnt disappear just because they want to compete on at least an equal footing with men
We can still respect and adore them as our equals.
These arguments and counter-arguments have been both instructive and amusing. However, let’s not lose sight of the important issues:
a) sexism is viewed as less of a social crime than racism;
b) personalities calling someone a k***** (ooops!)received more outraged talk-time and colummn inches and analysis than the taxi rape
c) South Africa is an extremely dangerous place to be female because of prevailing attitudes (from both men and women) that women are undeserving of being protected and cherished.
We still are the weaker sex, no matter that we have the vote and some measure of economic power. We are the ones afraid to walk alone anywhere, anytime, wearing what we choose because in the back of our minds is the insidious thought that we are vulnerable to attack simply because we are more fragile.
One gun, one knife, one broken bottle, one finger wielded by someone determined to put us in our place has the power to take away all our hard-won personal gains. We are reduced to being objects to gratify someone else’s desires. We are non-human in the eyes of others if all they see is an opprtunity for gratification, or a threat to the perceived order of things (ie men on top).
Nowadays, it is not so much “I am woman; hear me roar” as it is “I am woman; and I will hide away so as not to be violated.”
It’s a sad, shameful state to be in. Without full protection and acknowledgement by all society of women’s fundamental rights to be who we want to be and wear what we want to wear, we cannot be said to be free - no matter what our Constitution may say about it.
I in a way resent the comment: “In fact, I don’t believe that anyone can be a woman and not be a feminist.”
Feminism is a an explosive reaction to sexism. It goes from one extreme to the other - and I don’t care who you are that’s ALWAYS bad. It doesn’t help anything and in fact adds to the problem. It’s something I’ve learned from extensively studying graphology, extremes are never a good thing, and so it goes in life. I don’t want to be crude, but I think it makes my point, being a bitch won’t change a guy from being a dick, and in fact will likely encourage his behavior.
If you don’t like National Cleavage Day, a tit for tat Package Packaged Day isn’t going to change anything. Just say, I don’t agree with it, make a persuasive argument, and rally other women to support you. If you get enough women who aren’t showing off their cleavage on that day then it will fade away. Those that do are more than likely doing it in a jovial fashion or they can only find value in the lustful glances of men so just pity them.
Or change the day. Say instead of “objectifying” myself, we’ll do “Women Strength Day” or something to that effect, highlight women of power or merit, but don’t do it in a way that’s seen as, “this is only to get back at you” because it loses its effect. Women who invoke not only femininity (which by no means is the same as feminism) but possess leadership qualities and can be truly held as icons.
I want to tell you some of the reactions though so you won’t be surprised by it, those guys who are going to make fun of you for being feminists are still going to make fun of you for having said icons. That’s their nature and nothing really that you’re going to say is going to change that. Getting pissed off at their behavior in a sense validates what they’re doing in the first place - they do it to get a rise out of you, so when they don’t get the reaction they want, they have to learn to be more creative. In my experience, many of them get bored and just give up. You’re a woman, you’re grace, you’re intelligent, you’re half of what makes humanity great, and don’t let anybody’s comments take that away from you. Don’t give them that power.
Live strength, don’t just complain about it, and your example will speak far louder than your words.
Case in point: I had a male coworker - in a teasing sense, he wasn’t serious - tell me that women can’t play the same games as men because we’re not as good at it. Had I gotten upset and got into a battle of wills in a tit for tat he would have known that in order to get me upset, that’s all he would have to do, and bring it up again. Instead I just shrugged and didn’t say anything. He pressed a bit harder for a little bit and kept at it for a couple of days, but he finally stopped because it wasn’t getting him what he wanted and he hasn’t mentioned a word about it since.
Being a man and a woman isn’t about equality, it’s about balance. We compliment each other. There are ways around those jerks in our lives, but don’t exacerbate the issue by being a part of the problem.
*And I’m off my soap box, you all have a great day, and remember strength and beauty go hand in hand.
You offer too many caveats. Just say what you want to say. South Africa needs a big wake up. Too many of us see things as ‘fun’, and fail to see how misogynist they are. And too few of us take women seriously. But if a man were to write about sexism, he would probably get more kudos, and his opinion would count more than yours or mine. Let’s get angry about it and let’s do something.
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I’m immensely proud of you.
Also, I’d like to support the National Packed Package Day. Not because I’m facetious, but because I’m a bit of a pervert and like the idea of tit-for-tat.
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