Like Deon Maas, I am not a fan of satanism (or Christianity, for that matter). I would not mind the post-midnight gatherings, the listening to Cora Marie or Bles Bridges backward to hear messages of support, the incense and the candles, or the fetching young men in black looking morose and comically trying to feign evil looks. But, really, after a few weeks being a satanist would become terribly boring and mundane — how many times can one perform rituals to a non-existent being without becoming somewhat jaded? Soon going to the satanist gathering would be no better than attending an NG Kerk sermon in Christiana or a Julio Iglesias concert in Boksburg.
Yet, I find myself horrified by the decision of Tim du Plessis, editor of the Afrikaans Sunday newspaper Rapport, to fire columnist Deon Maas because he wrote a column in which he argued for some understanding of satanism.
Maas, who used to write a mildly amusing column for the Saturday supplement to Die Burger and Beeld before moving to Rapport two weeks ago, apparently offended some serious religious nuts by writing that satanism was a religion like any other and was therefore constitutionally entitled to the same kind of protection as any other religion. In tongue-in-cheek style he wrote that he was not a big fan of satanism because it was rather a lot of effort:
Die slag van vreedsame huisdiere, die skeur van Bybels, die algemene beswaardheid waarmee jy moet saamleef, swart geverfde vingernaels en die feit dat jy gewoonlik ná middernag moet wakker wees om jou geloof te beoefen, is alles faktore wat Anton LaVey se filosofie effe onaanvaarbaar vir my maak. (The slaughtering of peaceful pers, the tearing up of Bibles, the general moodiness you have to keep up, black-painted nails and the fact that one usually has to practise one’s religion after midnight are all factors that make Anton LaVey’s philosophy somewhat unacceptable to me.)
Probably anticipating some of the histrionic reactions of some Rapport readers, some of whom seem to be caught in a time warp and still seem to believe that dancing on Sunday is a mortal sin and that having sex with one’s wife is only barely tolerable in the eyes of God, Maas tries to cover his back by writing:
Propageer hierdie rubriek satanisme? Nee. Maar as ons wil hê ander mense moet ons punt insien en ons idees respekteer, moet ons hul punt insien en hul idees respekteer. Om iemand anders se idee te verstaan, beteken nie dat jy daarmee hoef saam te stem nie. (Do I propagate satanism in this column? No. But if we want others to see our point of view or respect our ideas, we have to also try to see their point of view and respect their ideas. To understand another’s idea does not necessarily mean one agrees with it.)
Eight days after this column appeared, an SMS campaign was launched by faceless readers to boycott the paper. According to Tim du Plessis, the campaign — which also targeted the distributors of the paper — started affecting the commercial interests of the newspaper. Freedom of expression is one thing, but the bottom line is clearly another; hence Maas was dismissed unceremoniously.
I must say, Rapport is not on my list of must-read publications. Ever since it paid Wit Wolf Barend Strydom R25 000 for a post-prison interview in the early Nineties and then treated the mass murderer as if he was a hero of the volk, I have struggled to regain any respect for the paper. It is not the stories of dominees caught with their pants down that turn me away, as much as the terribly parochial attention to rugby and all matters Afrikaans. Every time I read it I want to scream: Red nou ‘n volk!
However, the editor’s decision last week to fire Maas because of a column he wrote on satanism has lowered my even low estimation of the paper. Don’t these people have any backbone? And who are these readers who still get upset about mild schoolboy statements aiming to shock? Don’t these people have better things to do?
The saga is depressing on several levels. It suggests that a sizeable chunk of Rapport readers — and therefore South Africans — has not yet internalised the values of tolerance and respect for diversity enshrined in our Constitution and, in fact, may be actively opposed to such a value system. Maas was, of course, perfectly correct: the Constitution protects our freedom of religion and conscience, which includes the right to practise one’s religion as long as one does not break the law. If I want to open a satanist church in Putsonderwater or a Seventh-Day Adventist spa in Potgietersrus, I am constitutionally entitled to do so.
Religious fanatics do not have a constitutional right to stop me from practising my beliefs — no matter how peculiar or boring they may appear. That is why priests in the Catholic Church are allowed to prance around in their dresses and wave around chalices while making funny noises supposed to sound like Latin, while the sinister Afrikaner Protestantse Kerk can conduct sermons from which black people are explicitly prohibited. This is called freedom of religion.
Now, this is Rapport we are talking about, so one must assume that some of its readers are not all that bright and that many of them do not rejoice and praise the Lord every Sunday for delivering us from the evil apartheid system and allowing us to live in a free country. But there seems to be a difference between people who have a silent, simmering, hatred and distrust for the values of the “new South Africa” and people who are actively prepared to fight against these values.
It is quite disturbing that there are enough such people to launch a successful boycott campaign against a newspaper merely because someone published an article in it pleading for tolerance of satanism and extolling the virtues of freedom of religion. It suggests these people are very, very cross: they probably believe that satanism is up there with eating baby livers for dinner or catching a black man having sex with your blonde daughter in the marital bed (I am not equating these things, of course, but mocking the values of those who started this campaign).
To me these views are absurd and ridiculous and I can hardly imagine that there are still people who get upset about satanism. But then again I do not believe in satanism or baby Jesus, so maybe I am not the right person to get to grips with this. However, looking around me I wonder: if they are so concerned with evil, should they not rather campaign against the Catholic Church for condoning child molestation or start a campaign against child hunger? Is it really worse that Deon Maas writes about satanism than that people still die of hunger in the world?
Of course, the fact that these views are out there suggests that no matter what the Constitutional Court says about respect for diversity, many South Africans have hatred in their blood and will not be deterred by mooipraatjies about respect for the views of others.
It is also sad and a bit frightening that the newspaper caved in so easily while piously claiming it supported the notion of freedom of speech. (Strangely it did not endorse the equally important protected freedom of religion, belief and conscience — maybe because its readers do not endorse it either?) Can freedom of the press be undermined so easily by citizen activism? And do newspapers who easily scream about the public interest not have a duty to stand up to the naked bigotry of the public?
What would happen if ANC activists started a similar campaign against Mondli Makhanya from the Sunday Times? Will they have the same clout to convince its owners to fire him for “commercial reasons”? Or will the proprietors of the Sunday Times have a bit more of a backbone than those at Rapport? I would sincerely hope so, because if all newspaper proprietors cave in as easily as those at Rapport have, we can say goodbye to media freedom. Then freedom of the media will be as much a dirty word as freedom of religion seems to be, and that is a troubling thought indeed.
Frans, net omdat mens nie in Satanismus of “baby jesus” glo nie, beteken nie dat mens ook nie in God glo nie. Ek persoonlike glo dat, as God werklik bestaan, is dit ‘n baie beter God as die god van al die verskillende “religions”: Hulle gee eintlik vir God ‘n slegte naam. Daar is baie goeie mense in die wereld wat in God glo, maar nie “religious” is nie.
Thanks, 2ndhandB, for some interesting stuff there. I tend to agree with you about there being splintered and confused groups. (I knew about the female priestesses in some of the pagan and heathen sects – that would be bound to piss off the fundamentalist Christians – lol!) Isn’t human behaviour fascinating?!
GrantW
What I was attempting to say, was that the evil dude Satan, as described in the Christian Mythology, did not exist as an evil dude prior to the creation of these texts. The concept of Satan existed only in the Jewish mythology, but meant something totally different. The word in the Jewish context means adversary. If you look up the dictionary meaning of the word adversary it means ‘Someone who offers opposition’. Someone who opposed you in a debating team for example could be described as Satanic in the Jewish sense of the word.
In a more spiritual sense, learning to successfully overcome opposition/limits (imaginary and real) is an important part of our learning process – and from this you can see how the concept of satanism as a religion with a path of spiritual growth through learning to overcome ones limits emerged in the Jewish sense of the word, and not the Christian sense of the word.
You can also see by the Christian actions through the ages how this concept of the spiritual adversary was twisted to suite their empire building strategy. Anyone who opposed the church was deemed to be satanic, and hence a follower of Satan, and thus to be burned at the stake.
You can see the same level of fury, and sense of understanding displayed by The readers of the Rapport newspaper and other Christians on this forum like Frans, that is subconsciously raised through their conditioning and programming by the churches. If this was 1600 – and in close proximity to Frans – I’d be headed for the stake for sure.
What a shame that so few Christians know the true origins of their chosen belief, and that they have allowed themselves to be brainwashed. No wonder they don’t want to hear any opposing views – ignorance is bliss!
Carla en andere.Ek hoop dat julle die gesprek in
Afrikaans kan volg.Laat my toe om Prof.Jan ver Watt,Professor in Nuwe testament,Universiteit van
Pretoria en sy medewerkers aan te haal,wanneer hy in die “Bybel A-Z” soos volg oor Satan skryf.Ek sou dit graag vir julle in Engels wou vertaal,maar is dan bevrees dat van die betekenis verlore sal gaan:”Stan,die vyand van God”Die duiwel is nie gelowige se vriend of speelmaat nie,want hy en sy engele is uitgesproke vyande van God.Die duiwel wil God van sy troon af stoot en sy plek vat.Elke gelowige weet egter wat sy uiteinde is….Waar kom Satan vandaan? ” Ons weet die duiwel was ‘n engel;dus ‘n wese wat in die hemel toegelaat was,maar wat weens sy ongehoorsaamheid en rebellie uit die hemel gegooi is…. Name en skuilname…Satan beteken aanklaer.Sy funksie was om mense wat verkeerde dinge gedoen het,by God aan te kla.Aanvoerder van bose Geeste.Hy word beskryf as die generaal van die magte wat teen God gedraai het.Belial.Die woord is in die joodse literatuur gebruik om die heerser van duisternis of bedrog aan te dui,wat natuurlik die duiwel is.God van hierdie wereld.Die beeld van die duiwel wat heers oor en werk in die mense wat aan God ongehoorsaam is.Moordenaar van die begin af.Hy word as die vader van moord beskryf.Moord beteken hier om mense van God en die lewe wat Hy gee,weg te hou en weg te neem.Hy werk dus teen God.
Vader van die leuen.’n Uitstaande kenmerk van die duiwel is dat hy sy planne op die basis van leuens
uitvoer.Dan ook as teenstander wat Grant reeds genoem het.
Wat en hoe doen Satan alles.
Sy hoofdoel is om God se plek in te neem.Hy probeer God na-aap en oortuig dat hy God is.Hy versoek mense om teen God te draai.
Hy laat mense onder die indruk dat hul sonder God
————————————————-
kan klaarkom en as het ware self God kan wees.
———————————————.
Ondestreepte gedeelte my eie invoeging.
Hy beproef mense en veral gelowiges fisiek,hy tree in stryd met hulle.Hy probeer hulle verhinder om God se woord hul eie te maak en daarna te luister.en verblind mense vir God se lig.Hy verlei hul met dwaallere.Satan werk deur sy geestelike agente.
Grant,W and others if you are really interested and
are not afraid I will gladly put jou in touch with
Prof.van der Watt to enable you to put your resevations ,interpertations,opinions etc forward
and perhaps,just perhaps he might be able to change
your view of Satan.If you don’t it won’t insult me.
Does Satan succeed from time to time.He does,he
used Hitler under the banner of Christianity,Stalin
deprived the Russians and others for almost 70 years fro reading the Bible ans almost destroyed the Russian Church.He is real,you don’t know what
he capable of.Next to God he is the most powerful force you’ll ever encounter.No he is not a boogy
man to frighten children with,he knows the Bible backwards and forwards and uses his knowledge to mislead generations upon generations of decent hardworking,good people.Jesus had many confrontations with Rabbi and other learned people
of his time end eventually paid the ultimate penalty, because to hang from a cross meant you were between heaven and earth,rejected by both.
If he had not risen and conquered death,nothing in the Christian religion would make sense and this
particular aspect is the one under most attack and
mockery.I know my writings start to sound already to much like a sermon.Let my end by saying,the worst thing that can happen to anybody is to be forgotten by God and left to Satan and his followers.You are in hell and you don’t even known it.
I was hoping to wish everybody a Merry Christ-mas,but as it appears that not everyone believes
that God does exist,it is difficult,because to
wish everyone a merry Satan-mas or Devil-mas wont
work either and would be rather crude and rude of me and doesn’t sound as good as Merry Chistmas.
What do I want for Christmas ,a new keyboard,less
stiff fingers, a decent spellchecker and more time
to participate in these forums.Whatever your believes are just remember water and alcohol only mix
in one thing,that is a glass.Don’t drink and swim or drink and drive or venture on water full of alcohol.Some of you are by reading your comments
just too young to die and not ready for the nasty experience that awaits you.The arguments in this forum are in my opinion exhausted,so I’ll be signing off.En onthou Prof Boere is ook mense met
gevoelens so moet hulle nou nie onnodig die “moer”
inmaak nie.
Wow another great column. I can’t believe people are so backward about this, I have never liked Rapport and now I downright hate the newspaper and will never attempt to buy it again. Its really an insult that some(avoiding generalization) people who I share my language and culture with can be so ignorant and be completely blinded by their faith.
En die kom van ‘n ou wat so nou en dan kerk toe gaan.
“Nou gaan jy en jy kraak ‘n gedeelte
van in besonder die “Afrikaners” af as agterlik
of dan reguit verstandelik vertraag omdat hul nie
jou en Deon Maas se “verligte” sieninge deel of
onderskryf nie.Moet nou net nie weer slim raak en
vra wat ek bedoel met “Afrikaners” nie,want jy weet
goed van wie ek praat.”
To quote Frans:
Wie is jou Afrikaners? Ek is ‘n Afrikaner en ek stem nie saam met jou nie. As jy dink iemand wat ‘verstandelik vertraag is’ en van be beste rubrieke skryf op mail & guardien se thought leader is jy net arrogant. As jy blindelings wil glo in jou geloof is jy geregtig om so te doen. Mense soos jy is presies die onbewustelike teiken groep van mense met rationele denkwyses. Dit is jammer om te sien jy sukkel om die hele punt te agter te kom en val jy vir die lokval. Dink ‘n slag ‘n bietjie, of bly liewers net stil voordat almal ons as fanatiese naive Gristene bestempel.
I’ll take my chances Frans but thanks for your thoughts and happy xmas to you too.
Last point, remember that this whole thing started about an article discussing satanism in the Rapport. We have been discussing it as well, here on a public forum which amounts to the same thing really. You have been a part of that discussion. What is so different about what Deon did and what we have done? Should we be punished too?
Nee Wouter as jy jou by die “verligte” Afrikaners wil skaar dan is dit jou saak.Gaan lees gerus weer
sy paragraaf wat begin met” Now,this is Rapport we are talking about,so one must assume that some of its readers are not all that bright”.Nou kom Wouter
wat dink jy word hiermee bedoel?Vir my impliseer dit Rapport is bedoel vir mense wat nie heeltemaal
in die klas van die verstandelik verligte skrywer val en omdat dit Rapport is moet jy aanvaar.”that some of its readers are not all that bright”
Verder skryf hy “Maas tries to cover his back by writing.”Wanneer jy die sinsnede gebruik dan laat
jy vir jouself ‘n agterdeur oop.Hoekom,wel die skade is klaar gedoen,maar dan kan jy altyd se”Jy het dit nie so bedoel nie,lees maar self hier wat ek verder geskryf het.”Nou Wouter,hoekom val jy my
aan wat probeer on ‘n gedeelte van die bevolking
wat nie geleenthede het,om hulself te verdedig nie,te beskerm teen sulke vereenvoudighede en in
my sienswyse growwe beledigings.
Jy gaan verder en beskuldig my dat ek in ‘n lokval
stap.My vriend jy het oop oog daarin gestap,omdat
jy nie snap dat dit hier om veel verder gaan as wat
jy vermoed.
Ten slotte wees dankbaar dat die Boere-oorlog verby
is want jy kon maklik as ‘n “joiner” en “verraaier”
deur sommige van die voorsate van die nie so”bright” Afrikaners beskou gewees het.
Geseende Kersfees en voorspoedig 2008.Mag dit vir
jou ‘n verligte jaar wees!
Frans
I hope you have a merry Xmas too. On a side note, Xmas is not just a Christian tradition. There are aspects and traditions in Xmas that come from many cultures and religions. I especially like the traditions of giving to those less fortunate than oneselves at Xmas time, and promote this valuable aspect started by Santa Klaus to my children.
We have a Tree (which comes from the Pagan tradition) that we burn in the old tradition 12 days after the 25th.
We also regard as our family coming together at least once a year on this occasion as a great tradition and celebration that we promote and enjoy. We have strong family values, and value the integrity that this time of year helps to build.
All of this, and we are Athiests and non-religious. Ethics and morals do not come from religion – they are inherant in the Human animal. Instinctivley we know what is right and wrong.
It is the illusion that we are not animals, and have to rely on abstract constructs like religion for our ethics and morals that is the greatest lie and illusion forced upon mankind by those that have greed and a lust for power in their hearts.
SEcondhand.Buddah.Go well and may find what you’re are looking for.!
To secondhandbuddah
Interesting tradition, I have to help you in one regard though. Yes we are animals but one thing you have wrong there is absolutely no inherent morality within humans. We are all rapists and mass murderers. Fear is the mother of morality. Whether you chose to fear Hell, the police, public opinion or a cell mate named Dada. I have enough experience with humans and have studied our entire history and there is not a single grain of inherent morality, it is created by fear and fear alone. But what you fear is your choice. Hence the satanic saying you are the slave of the one you fear. When Niche said God is dead, he did not believe what he was saying is that the next century man would rule without the fear of god and he was right as we saw the rise of Nazism, Communism. Terrible, terrible atrocities have been committed in the name of religion but the worst atrocity’s was committed by those who don’t fear God. God exist not because we want him to, we exist because he wanted it. If you can say honestly that you are perfect being then there is no God, but you can’t.
Oh Frans, I do find it a bit of a giggle, your assuming that I’m in Hell …! I don’t believe in either hell or Satan. Since I’m agnostic and not atheist I don’t entirely rule out the existence of a higher power: I just believe we don’t, and maybe even can’t, know whether God exists and the nature of God. Nevertheless, Merry Christmas to you too!
To “again”: I completely disagree with you. No matter how much experience you may have had with people you cannot say that humans have no inherent morality. There are a great many people who don’t believe in any deity and so do not fear anything – yet they are good and moral people: This I can assure you. Yes, terrible atrocities have been commmitted in the name of religion, but exactly BECAUSE of the fear of God. As the old saying goes: “There will always be good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things – that takes religion”. I think it’s very sad that you think everyone is inherently evil. We are not perfect beings, but I doubt whether that has anything to do with the existence of God. And you can’t prove that we exist because “he wanted it”. There is just no way to know why we exist. I can’t understand people who speak in these absolutes – I find it very arrogant indeed. Give it up people – we just don’t know! Maybe one day, when we’re further evolved (if our species survives long enough), we’ll find out. But for now WE JUST DON’T KNOW. So enjoy life and spread love and kindness wherever you can. Merry Christmas, everyone!
Dear Carla,Thank you.I am glad you found time to
do a bit of giggle and am glad that you did not
burst out laughing,which you still may do after you’ve read this.Morals of course are the principles
of right and wrong behaviour and is based on what you believe is right rather than what the law or rules say is right.As they are manmade they change
from day to day and from generation to generation.
The laws and rules of yesterday are soon scrapped
and forgotten and constitutions are amended from
time to time.It is a bit like stretching your
Rand to go a bit further each and every time.What
is frowned upon today maybe acceptable tomorrow.
Now this is exactly the problem,mortal man decides
on what is acceptable.It is alright to behead the
adulterer in the Middle East with the West screaming like banshees unable to intervene.
I believe the word of God as we have it in the 10
Commandments and the Bible has stood the test of time,is the
perfect constitution,does not nead any amendment
was fulfilled when Jesus said,you must love your
neighbour like yourselve.No need to stretch your
believes, a meter today is a meter tomorrow not
to be shrunk to 80cm today to be streched to 1m20
tomorrow depending on circumstances and your
particular like or dislike of the person you’re
dealing with.Now don’t you die laughing,you’re
not ready yet. All of the best.
There is an enormous amount of evidence to suggest that our morality evolved and is still evolving with us since co-operation ensured survival while selfish behaviour did not. In other words, there are benefits to being moral which evaporate when we kill and rape.
Frans, you are correct when you say that morality is ever-shifting but I would have disagree that it is going in the wrong direction. We now believe it is immoral to marry young girls off at the age of ten, we believe women should be equal partners, that slavery and racism is wrong. These are all things that a mere 200 years ago were not the taboo they are now at all. It is therefore a very sketchy argument to say the bible lays our moral foundation since it is obviously changing rapidly while the bible is constant and some of the bible is downright immoral by today’s standards, especially the old testament.
to carla: we are imperfect nothing wee see, hear, taste or experiance is perfect as an absolute, nothing. Yet we all know we are imperfect thus perfection exist, thus there is a god. I can prove the existance of god in a thousand ways.
I made a snide comment about Rapport and some of its readers, sarcastically stating that not all of them could be very intelligent. Dit beteken nie ek kraak alle Afrikaanse mense af nie of beweer Afrikaanse mense is minder intelligent as ander nie. But if you look at Rapport, much of it is really tabloid journalism, not much better than the Daily Voice or Die Son. It is aimed at a certain reader who likes scandal and skinner. To comment on this, is not to make a generalisation about Afrikaners. Those who read it like that are obviously rather thin-skinned and sensitive. My question would be: why would one buy such a crap newspaper – just because it is written in Afrikaans?
again? Please try again, again.
We are imperfect but we know what perfect is therefore god exists? That is a bit of a jump at the end there. If the prosecution in a court case used your logic, they might say ‘your honour, the defendant is human and lives on earth and so is the criminal who committed the crime so we surely have the right guy. QED. The prosecution rests!’ Its just not that simple and I suspect the rest of your thousands of proofs fall into the same category.
I firmly believe that the reason people doubt the existence of dog (my youngest daughter’s name for god!) is because they were brought up with religious brain-washing. I have never doubted her existence because I was deprived of a religious upbringing (thank dog). As a single mother with 4 kids and no profession as such I have many times been unemployed and have witnessed the power of dog – we have never gone homeless or hungry. My 17 year old who has also never had to deal with being brain-washed firmly believes that NOBODY is actually evil. People are just motivated by what they believe to be right – as she points out even Hitler firmly believed that what he was doing was right. Even the apartheid regime believed that apartheid was dog’s will. There’s some crowd of christian democrats that believe they have been prevented from carrying out dog’s will by the new laws preventing parents from beating their children. So called morality as imposed by all religions is a social wickedness of the vilest degree. And because its imposed on people from a very young and impressionable age I still maintain that religion is the most widespread and internationally condoned form of child abuse.
As we have always mentioned that in the name of religion things are bound to get worse. There has been countless atrocious activities inthe name of religion. And the worst is that most naive individuals have always believed and unwittingly embracing the notion that morality is based and derives from religion when Socrates managed long time ago to share a light into such dangerous inferences. Now a national paper, in a democratical society with a well established constitution that enshrines and protects all forms of belief system succumbs to religious fundamentalists who threatens to boycott his paper circulation. And the very same editors believes that he has freedom of expression what a load of crab. He is the one to go since he succumbs to threats. I must advice him that I won’t be buying his paper as well since he takes sides and does not exudes any independency and inspire the freedom of speech which is so essential to media (freedom). In a country where media freedom is at risk, papers like Rapport must be doing their part to work against tghe evil forces that threaten that freedom. They must take a leaf from the MG.
again:
We are animals. There is inherant natural order amoung animals. Examine any species and you will find this order. The same applies to Humans.
Humans are social animals – we like to live in groups. We have found that we survive better in groups, and we have evolved natural laws that come with living in groups. The laws that we have (Most of which the churches claim as proclaimed by the diety of their choice) are actually very obvious.
To keep a group together, individuals cannot steal from other individuals within the group. they cannot kill other members of the group, they cannot mate with another group members partner, they have respect for the elders within the group etc. To keep the group strong and thereby increase chances of survival, these laws need to be kept, and they generally are.
In this light natural law is obvious. Everything we do is governed by our will to survive. Our will to survive as individuals, as families, and as social groups all have different natural laws governing these specific spheres of existance.
In short, Breaking the natural laws effects our chances of survival, as individuals, families or groups. This is why we, as humans, are motivated to be inherently good.
Good is a concept that defines what is good for my survival, while bad or evil is something that threatens my survival. For example I may be allergic to mushrooms, so to me mushrooms are bad, while to you, who is not allergic to them, they are good. This is how simple the concept of good and evil is.
This is how the concept of good and evil, that is acutally based on survival, can be extrapolated through the individual, family and social spheres to build an overall individual concept of Good and Evil.
To call us morally bankrupt without religion, is simply church propoganda – i.e. part of the sales pitch to scare people into the church. We as humans inherantly know what is right and wrong.
Quoting GrantW:
‘Attie, the real world is precisely the place where faith is the warty abnormality and agnostics and gays actually do exist although not in the over-abundance which you claim. There is far more evidence for the existence of the poor gay people you seem to despise than for jesus. Faith or belief without any real-world evidence is not something honourable, good and true but rather a sign of indoctrination from childhood and the lack of a clear and questioning thought process’
Grant, firstly, where did I state I despise gays? Secondly, do you believe in UFO’s, aliens, the Illuminati, Evolution, any higher power? Yet, you mention “good” and “evil”. If there is no deity or higher power, how can there be good and evil?
I also have a question regarding people that have converted to their faith. Individuals that have in their adult lives converted to Islam, Hinduism, Christianity, Satanism etc. Do you honestly believe it is a matter of childhood indoctrination and absence of a thought process?
If you do not believe that Jesus exists, does that mean there is no evidence for his existence? The same goes for gay people, if somebody chooses to believe that they do not exist, does that mean they don’t?
The old philosopher question that if there is nobody to hear a tree fall, does it make a sound has been proven conclusively wrong by science and everybody accepts it. Yet scientists have proven both that the Bible “mythology” is true, and that God does not exist. Which one should you believe? Science can prove just about anything from a subjective viewpoint. In the end, everything said here has been subjective and people will differ on religion. Religion being defined by the Oxford dictionary as: “Devotion to some principle; strict fidelity or faithfulness; conscientiousness; pious affection or attachment.” In Nature of Doctrine, George Lindbeck defines religion as, “a kind of cultural and/or linguistic framework or medium that shapes the entirety of life and thought… it is similar to an idiom that makes possible the description of realities, the formulation of beliefs, and the experiencing of inner attitudes, feelings, and sentiments.”
According to these definitions, religion refers to one’s primary worldview and how this dictates one’s thoughts and actions; therefore this discussion will never end, because everyone has their own subjective opinion. You yourself are religious, simply because you believe something, even if it is that there is no god.
On this point, Pierre I apologize, you are correct. I did subjectively criticize yourself, because I did not agree with your viewpoint. I do have a question though. Should freedom of religion and freedom of speech be allowed under any circumstance? That freedom of speech might include the publication of child pornography, or freedom of religion including sects that still hold the belief that the future can be forecasted using freshly slaughtered human intestines. Which human right is more important? Where should we draw the line? Or is there certain things which should not be allowed?
Phew, some interesting debate going on! I wonder if Pierre expected all this when he wrote the column?! Anyway, I’m opting out for now because this sort of discussion could go on forever. Thanks though, Pierre, for opening quite the can of worms …! To the rest of you – go well and may all good things come your way. Remember: “Live and Let Live” and “Do as you would be done by”. (Always worked for me!)
So here we are, finally,the great debate between the
I am allright Jack, can go it alone,my logic,intellect,brain power is sufficient,to carry me to the end,even if in the end I might become a little senile,suffer from Alzheimer’s disease,forcing those nearest and dearest,to put me in a place I don’t want to be,I’ll be allright.The super human race is just around the corner.Should I encounter something else on the other side,my by now a little dented and not so sharp intellect etc,is sufficient to conquer everything it can throw at me )In Afrikaans I would say
Ek is ‘n dapper muis,kyk hoe stap ek oor die grens
van lewe en dood,daar is niks wat my laat skrik nie) versus those who say,No I cannot go it alone
I need someone greater than myself to walk with me
when I enter and walk through the valley of death to face my Maker at the end of the journey,my accuser ready with the charge sheet only to be defeated by my Advocate,has come to an end.
So it all a matter of choice and is it going to be
he laughs best who laughs last?.Only time will tell.
Frans:
To put it simply: God is the first scientific theory. God is the first explanation of why things exist. God came about when primitive people started making things, and applied their simplistic knowledge that things can be made to the entire universe.
Frankly, if there was a God, the Christian interpretation of him/her/it would be highly insulting. As we only relatively recently discovered how large the universe really is, and how minuscule humans are in the scale of size of the universe, and what a short time we as a species have been on earth, when placed in the time-scale of the universe.
Our infinitely short little lives on this tiny little planet in the backwaters of the universe are truly insignificant on a cosmic scale. To think that this vengeful Christian God who created all of this, has the time or inclination to listen to our personal thoughts, and to punish us if we so much as think wrong thoughts is ludicrous, if not a little insane.
Understandably 5000 years age, when our scientific knowledge and general literacy was limited there may have been some excuse to believe this rubbish, but to actually believe it now can only be described as a form of mass mental aberration, or more simply, a form of insanity.
Religions feed on our insecurities and fears. Our primary motivation is to survive, so What better sales pitch than to allow you to live forever in a wonderful place of your dreams (with 72 virgins if you are a sexually frustrated young Muslim man) where you will never go hungry, and will be safe forever.
To join the illusion, all you have to do is accept Jesus as your personal saviour listen to us, and give us a percentage of your money, don’t get up to anything that will threaten our group, and you can have all of the above – when you die – (which no one will ever be able to verify anyway once they are worm food).
Its time to grow up dude. I think you are probably a bit old for imaginary friends…
Attie:
Freedom is a hard won right that comes with a lot of responsibility. Freedom needs to be defended.
One of the core set of principals of freedom that we know is the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. This document is used to measure levels of freedom throughout the world.
The Declaration covers aspects like we have a right not to be suppressed, oppressed or abused.
We have a right to practice a religion of our choice (or none). Some religions however have oppressive tendencies built into them that are not supported by the Declaration. So the dilemma that exists in this space is, which is more important, our Human Rights, or the oppressive tendencies defined and dictated by religions. Personally, my money is on the Declaration.
The Declaration is also specific about children and the rights of children. Children are different to adults because they rely on adults for guidance and survival. Child pornography infringes on these rights because it is a form of abuse because of the innate reliance of children on adults.
Generally, we should be moving towards societies that protect all of the freedoms that the Charter provide, and we should be aware when governments attempt to put legislation in place that affect our Human rights, and we should, if possible act against this oppression.
Secondhand.Buddah.The words you posted were first
thoughts in your head.Even if I had the most sophisticated equipment at my disposal the best
I could do was to detect brain activity in certain
parts of the brain,but still unable to decipher them.So what I am trying to say is that all around us things are taken place we cannot see or are even aware of,but that should not lead me to the conclusion that they don’t excist.If you honestly believe that our very existence and all that you observe is just a fluke of nature,you should at least honour nature,admit that it is a superior force,because it established what no mortal man has been able to.
So no Creator,no heaven no hell, no immortal soul,really nothing to worry about,just very advanced talking primates,who should have no reason to look down on our lesser advanced cousins,and take to task those who eat them.
If you believe all that you should have no fear
of dying,the fact that we display sorrow should
not be regarded as unigue even elephants do.
We should also be less perturbed about the death
penalty,because we are just putting talking primates away or do you feel deep down there is
something more.That we as advanced as we are
still make mistakes in this regard is regretable.The Charter you so rely on is just a collection of human thoughts and subject to adjustment from time to time,by more advanced
and enligtened souls.
Your reference to Moslem martyrs precisely proves
the opposite of what you are saying,they have
cultures,tradition,knowledge behind them and were
“civilised” long before the Charter and Western
civilisation.Many of them are higly educated and
civilised,but they are driving by a force that
you and I find difficult to understand and often
write off as hatered for he west.
Now dude,if I may call you that the knowledge you
are so proudly referring to did not orginate in the
West but in the East.Do you think the ancient Egyptioans who had those magnificent pyramids built
and believe in the after life were barbarians or
people highly civilised and andvanced for their time.The first Egyptian dynasties began 2950 BC.You
write their understanding of the heavens and their
conception of life hereafter off as rubbish.
I reckon you’re the one that has to wake up and
stop dreaming.you’re are living in a fools paradise.
Halo secondhand.Buddah. Secondhand is a bit old fashioned by today’s standards, secondhand is replaced by preowned.So who was your previous owner,The knowlegde you’re so proudly referring to,did
not start in the West but East.The first Egyptian
dynasties stared between 2950-2575 BC. Our
ancestors at that time were still barbarians,My
forefathers promptly chopped old Bonifacius head
off and used his skul as a beermug,they took no
prisoners,not a very pretty lot to know.He should never have attempted to convert them.So now here we are and 5000 years later the Egyptians were uncivilised people,they
should never have build the pyramids or have believed in life after death.Such a lot of rubbishs.The fact that they erected monuments that
even with todays knowledge and machinery we will find
hard to match doesn’t count.We know it all.Now
the words you posted,were first thoughts.Even with
the most sophisticated equipment I would only have
been able to detect brain activity,but no thoughts,no words.So what I am saying is,that all
around us things are taken place we cannot hear nor
see,but that should not bring me to the conclusion
that they dont exist,because the fact that you posted them,proves that they did.
So I cannot show you the Creator,I can only detect his hand in the life of many Christians,but according to your believe in which seeing is believing,I must conclude that he does not exist.
No creator,no soul,because man can only bring into
being things that end and are thus incapable to create an immortal soul.
Man also cannnot repeat the popular “Big bang”
and therefore should at least acknowledge it as a
superior force,because no “Big bang” no man.
How absurd to rely on constitution and charters.
WE have the most modern constitution,but yet face
the lowest illteracy rate to grade 5,out of 40 nations,we are placed no 39.are the number one nation for aids infections.have the highest murder rate per 100 000.So we doing so well are we.Charter
or no charter it is still a miserable life for many.
Your lack of understanding the driving force behind
young Moslem men to commit suicide in the name of
a religion is astounding.Many of them are highly
educated,have traditions,cultures,knowledge going
back thousands of years,long before the Western world had even captured the art of writing.No if there one that must get a life it is you,because
you’re living in a fools paradise,failing to understand that it is our Creator’s amazing mercy that allows us to escape this world of misery and contempt.Do you want another 7000 years to expirement,the results do not look to good.Far easier to accept Christ as your saviour,you don’t
have to wait,only than you’ll be catching a real life and can make a meaningful difference in the lives of the less fortunate.
Frans:
to me Secondhand Buddah means nothing. I am non-religious and a non-theist – just your translation of it however is quite amusing
for 16 years I lied to myself and told myself that there was something more. I had bought the lie implanted in my early childhood by the indoctrination by the churches. When I finally acknowledged the truth that there is no god, and one day this body of mine will break down and no longer function, and I will die, and that will be it – at that point I really began to live my life.
You see, with god out of the picture, the responsibility for what happens now falls squarely on the sholders of men. With god in the picture a thousand excuses for the state of the world emerge.
With god in the picture, we go to war to fight for what is right/good. With god out of the picture, the greed of men becomes visible and the real reason for war becomes evident. I can see this, but you cannot because of your religious blinkers, and I have seen both sides of the fence.
I clearly acknowledged how insignificant we are as humans in my last post. We are still primitive. Our primary energy sources still some from burning stuff. We still cannot even overcome gravity without a great effort, and gravity is a relatively weak force. There are forces in nature and natural processes so powerful as to be able to form stars and galaxies. To even begin to think that we as humans will one day have the power to create even a small planet is a marvellous self-delusion.
I am glad you brought up the moral state of our nation, because it correlates directly to the number of people who claim to be religious which are the majority. The truth is, like it or not, secular societies like Sweden and Norway, where religious people are in a minority, have the least crime, the lowest AIDS rates, the highest literacy rates and education levels among their populations, and generally far more moral and ethical societies where people are content and civil.
It is the countries with strong religious and superstitious communities that are full of turmoil like Israel, South Africa and other African countries, The Muslim block, Parts of India and Southern American countries. Robert Mugabe and George Bush both regard themselves as staunch Christians. Is this by chance? I think not.
With regards to dying: Our primary motivator is to survive i.e. not die, so generally I don’t particularly want to die, and will fight against dying for as long as I can, but I am not particularly scared of dying. Death is one of the natural certainties that we cannot avoid – just like one day the earth will no longer exist, or one day the sun will no longer exist. These things are inevitabilities.
With regards to the Muslim martyrs – your lack of understanding is amusing, and quaint. To put it quite simply what motivates Muslim martyrs is SEX. It is an underlying subconscious drive. Basically most suicide bombers are young men who are generally poor. In their society where multiple wives are allowed, richer men get more wives, while poorer men remain frustrated. 72 virgins waiting for them in heaven is the motivator – it is actually a delusional heightened sense of survival.
And I am not sucking this out of my thumb. Check the psychology today website. this has been validated through scientific study.
when the religionistas and the atheists have finished killing each other , cld the last one alive turn off the light .
i am immigrating to the mountains of tibet to live a life as a hermit
Not a bad place,enjoy your stay
Secondhand Buddah,your assumption about Moslem man
is so absurd,that is does deserve no comment at all.
The countries you’re referring to had strong religious backgrounds,it is a pity that they have now declining moral standards. Africa has far too many name Christians hence our dismal records in combatting aids,crime etc.Do not look at your examples
for guidance,rather seek Bishop Tutu for help.Good
Luck on your search for happiness,
Fras:
Re Muslim Suicide Bombers:
I Refer you to an article in Psychology Today : ‘Ten Politically Incorrect Truths About Human Nature’ by Alan S. Miller Ph.D. & Satoshi Kanazawa Ph.D.
http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20070622-000002.xml
Read it with caution. It may challenge a few of your pre-conceived ideas about reality.
Secondhand.Buddah,I do not take my car to backyard
mechanics,why should I consult psychology If I have
direct access to the “soulmaker”.I had enough of it
and did manage to pass Industrial psychology on
third year level,thank you.
why should I consult psychology If I have direct access to the “soulmaker”
Because, duh, Frans, you DO NOT.
Nobody has direct access to God.
Even the Bible SAYS THAT!
1 Corinthians 13. Read it on Biblegateway.com if you do not possess a Bible.
FYI I am Anglican, and I have no problem respecting that people have a right to practise Satanism if they choose to.
Christians who refuse to allow people to exercise their free will are going straight to Hell.
Richard my man,in my bible I read and the Word (Jesus) became flesh (man) and walked amongst us.He the
Father and the Holy Ghost are one.Stop reading
comic books and flawed interpretations on the internet.The letter 1 Cor. was written between 54-55 AD. The Apostle Paul wrote this letter,because he heard of the many problems, interalia that they did not care for each other,also worshipped many false gods,sexual misconduct,quarrels,wrong interpretations of the work of the Holy Ghost and
the resurection of Jesus.Paul wrote this letter in
the hope that it would serve as a guideline and
solve many problems.
May your eyes beopened lik Jesus opened the eyes
of Paul on his way to persecute the early Christians.
To be in hell means to be forgotten by God,to be left alone in the company of Satan and his followers.Jesus was
crucified,died and resurected,because God so loved
this world that rather to let sin go unpunished
he sacrificed His only Son to save us from a fate worse than death!!
So much for the bleating sheep who failed to notice I got fired by Lobotomedia24 for defying an editor and writing a story about a “black” jazz musician in an apparent “coloured” target market.
Thanks for not caring about my story. Thanks for selling out to satan, worshiping beezlebub and deleting me. Thanks for taking gutter journalism to a knew level with the Daily Voice. Thanks for not giving a damn about the Heart 104.9 “bombing saga” or the angel who saved me from nearly getting gang-raped by twenty thieves.
http://davidrobertlewis.wordpress.com
Pshu…
And Antonio Domasio, the world’s leading brain scientist tells us we have a section of our brain to handle spirituality. The size and density determines how religious you are.
But I’m an Einstein Man. “God doesn’t play dice, he casts the dies”.
Thanks SecondHand.Buddah for that link. Interesting… I would argue some of the points but interesting still.
Tell me Frans, you don’t get a garage to fix your car, What Canbus/Linbus/Other interface do you use? How do you read the EEPROM and reset the registers? How do you interpret the information? I’d like to do this myself (Im an engineer for a car electronic component manufacturer). Or is your car more than 6 years old.
I’m sorry I missed this glorious discussion
Yes John it is more than to years.Good for me the
make of car I drive is still serviced by the local
dealer from which I bought it.Regular service keeps
it on the road and in tip top condition.I am a strong believer in fixing small problems before they become major ones.In my opinion dampers often referred to as shock absorbers are the most
neglected parts. Some people I know are mechanical Engineers and have fully equiped workshops at home. One of them is rebuilding a Porsche 911 ad doing a fantastic job. What I am referring to are people often operating from their
garages with little equipment and even less expertise.In my younger days I used to service my
own cars as far as oil changes etc were concerned.
Since they have become computor controlled I believe it is best to leave it to the people with
the necessary knowhow.
I never exceed the recommended lifetime.
Geese Louise, can’t believe I just wasted over an hour reading all these comments! Funny how all these agnostic activists are always so angry and attacking! If you wanna believe that throwing together a bunch of different atoms / chemicals will automagically turn into life given enough time then so be it, why get bigoted and criticizing if I (and most of the country) believe otherwise? It only makes you look like self-contradictory missionaries of a “non-existent” religion.
Back to the topic at hand: it seems that a lot of “enlightened viewers” just can’t grasp the basic fact that paper’s deliver a service that people (yeah face the facts – most of them are Christians!) pay for – and don’t really exist as a platform for silly writers to express their controversial attention seeking views. Although I prefer M&G, I would probably boycott the paper as well (just like the Rapport readers) if Mr de Vos were to practise his “freedom of expressions” in something I had to part with by pennies for. Luckily the internet exists for these marginalized people to try and find a voice – which I guess will be Mr. Maas’s only salvation too. If your music stinks, you can still sing it in the ally, just not on stage!