Comments on: What is Pastor Ray up to?

By: Sipho

Sipho — Thu, 08 Oct 2009 08:44:43 +0000

By the way I’m not a member nor a supporter of the ANC. Unfortunately I don’t just accept any criticism of the party, people still need to work hard to make believe in them. Throwing slogans around doesn’t do it for me. That’s exactly why I haven’t joined any party.

By: Sipho

Sipho — Thu, 08 Oct 2009 08:38:53 +0000

@JJ Tabane,exactly my point. thinking is an integral part of debate. Anyone can throw around platitudes and get a fair amount of non thinking persons to agree with him. the fact that you honestly believe in something doesn’t necessarily make it right. I raise these to help you to think critically about your points of reference. I can easily ignore you like I normally do with other bloggers who throw socialised platitudes around.

By: Onkgopotse JJ Tabane

Onkgopotse JJ Tabane — Wed, 07 Oct 2009 20:25:11 +0000

Sipho,

Thought Leader is not a library or a class room it is a debate forum I have put my argument about why it is not desirable for a churchman to be partial if u believe differently argue and not just pose intellectually lazy questioins.

The rest of yuor questions are frankly not worth my time. You can answer them yourself.

Your inputs belong to a high school debating society. Frankly I dont have the time for meaningless engagement.

By: Sipho

Sipho — Wed, 07 Oct 2009 14:25:47 +0000

@JJ Tabane: 1.Why should the church be impartial? 2. What is wrong with Mr McCauley choosing his own guests to his own church?
3. What is wrong with inconsistency, isn’t life made up of contradictions?
4. Do you want to tell me you take whatever praise comes your way?
It would be great if you can honestly address these questions instead of personal attack.

By: Paul Whelan

Paul Whelan — Fri, 02 Oct 2009 19:11:09 +0000

Twannie

You are assuming it is a democracy – it is not in my view.

There is a degree of ‘vigilance’ at this stage, however, or this article would not have appeared.

By: Keith Downs

Keith Downs — Fri, 02 Oct 2009 15:02:52 +0000

One has to keep an eye on the career of William Wilberforce, the man who led Britain to become the first nation in history to renounce the slave trade of its own initiative. A very religious man Wilberforce advocated the separation of Church and state whilst advocating Christian issues from his platform as a Member of Parliament. This was not a contradiction, the Church as an organisation should never be controlled by the state. The African Christian Democratic Party who were also denied an election message at McCauley’s pulpit, know this and take their faith into the public square but do not advocate Church control of Government nor Government control of the church. In order to seek a platform of influence Pastor Ray has sold the religious iodeals of his part of the Church to the state, to serve a totaliterian god. (Note small g) He has not advocated a state and government that actually honours God (Capital) in it’s ethics, morality and humanity. Shame on a Church organisation that has become a department of the temporal authority.

By: Twannie

Twannie — Fri, 02 Oct 2009 13:21:10 +0000

@Sipho,
The Biblical “let he whom is without sin cast the first stone” should never be used as a cop out in that it would forbid us to use our own judgment or would remove from us the right to point out wrongdoings. By that logic we’d end up with total anarchy.
But clearly it suits you to allow certain parties to harbour sinister plans and to stifle protests thereto from others.
I do not want take away from you the right to try so, but you’ll have to expect that other will judge this to be for what it is: a cheap ploy to subvert fair comment.

@Paul Whelan, I’m glad that in principle we agree about most matters concerned. But we disagree apparently on one important point: to take much for granted in what is essential a suspect democratic system may result in ending up with a failed democratic system. You think there is nothing wrong with the Ray-JZ alliance; I think that it is just another way in which the rot manifests itself.
Failing to be vigilant (or indignant) about such matters may turn out be costly.
But granted, “normally” such a cooperation would be almost de rigueur.

By: Onkgopotse JJ Tabane

Onkgopotse JJ Tabane — Thu, 01 Oct 2009 21:11:33 +0000

Sipho

Sometime I think you play dumb deliberately. Why on earth would I take issue with someone who ‘praises my blog’ – what would I say to them. A debate is most enriched not by patting each other on the back but by sharpening the contradictions in discourse…..so I will take issue with those who choose – like you excell in – to deliberately miss the point of my post or who seek clarity on what I have said….I will not waste time commenting on post of people who are agreeable unless such posting of mine will add value – this is thought leader deabte platform not a chat room……So sorry if u expected me to comment on those that agree with me – have no inclination to do that…..

By: Onkgopotse JJ Tabane

Onkgopotse JJ Tabane — Thu, 01 Oct 2009 21:06:48 +0000

Sipho!
First of all your sentiment that COPE is a ‘monkey on my back” is a pure excuse to always refuse to engage with what I place here and paint it with a COPE brush….the reality is I DONT call a mass meeting of COPE before i express views here. In fact many COPE members may not agree with my sentiments. This is thought leader if you cant handle views of people just because you see an imaginary monkey on their backs each time they open their mouths that is your problem. Frankly I dont give a damn. And I dont give a damn also about the monkey on your back I care about what proceeds from your brain and often and so far it is just prejudice that does not amount to intellectual discourse. The issue is:

* The Church must be impartial and must be the conscience of the nation. To do this it cannot cosy up to government, full stop.
* Mr Ray was wrong to invite one party and not others. This is poor judgement on his part.
* Three PASTOR ray must be a lot more consistent and speak out publicly against various sectors of society that are doinga all sorts of things that ‘threated democracy’ .

Now what has these things got to do with COPE and its monkey bla bla ….learn to debate man and not waste space bitching about people’s politcal affiliations…….

And what if this was a COPE view anyway DEBATE!!!

By: Paul Whelan

Paul Whelan — Thu, 01 Oct 2009 12:58:55 +0000

@Twannie

There is no difference between us except that what you get indignant about I take for granted.

Under monocracy most interests in society find it advantageous to remain on side. It is one of the ways monocracy sustains itself.