Comments on: The race debate is a dead end http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/michaelfrancis/2009/09/22/the-race-debate-is-a-dead-end/ Sun, 12 Feb 2012 10:41:24 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Jeff http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/michaelfrancis/2009/09/22/the-race-debate-is-a-dead-end/comment-page-2/#comment-96411 Jeff Thu, 08 Oct 2009 15:33:21 +0000 http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/michaelfrancis/2009/09/22/the-race-debate-is-a-dead-end/#comment-96411 @Tlanch Tau, From 1989-1999 I worked in for the Western Cape Education Dept. I used to upset some of my colleagues, when I pointed out that AA was no different to what the NP had done for Afrikaners after 1948. I suppose one could say similar about the English speakers before 1948, but I am not conversant with that period. You and I could probably agree on a number of things about exploitation, be it based on class or skin colour. Again if you have a different culture to the exploiter you are likely to suffer more. The point I was trying to make is that my father's generation of workers was never promised any sort of restitution for being exploited, and he never expected it. They knew they couldn't get jobs just because they had been exploited. I feel the ANC takes advantage of people who, through no fault of their own have very little, and get made ridiculous promises about houses, education, healthcare, whatever. They then get a sense of entitlement, and I think it is amoral to give people these expectations, because I suspect the ANC know they cannot deliver on these promises. I believe education is the long term answer, as people will then become employable. There is no quick fix. @Tlanch Tau,
From 1989-1999 I worked in for the Western Cape Education Dept. I used to upset some of my colleagues, when I pointed out that AA was no different to what the NP had done for Afrikaners after 1948. I suppose one could say similar about the English speakers before 1948, but I am not conversant with that period.
You and I could probably agree on a number of things about exploitation, be it based on class or skin colour. Again if you have a different culture to the exploiter you are likely to suffer more.
The point I was trying to make is that my father’s generation of workers was never promised any sort of restitution for being exploited, and he never expected it. They knew they couldn’t get jobs just because they had been exploited. I feel the ANC takes advantage of people who, through no fault of their own have very little, and get made ridiculous promises about houses, education, healthcare, whatever. They then get a sense of entitlement, and I think it is amoral to give people these expectations, because I suspect the ANC know they cannot deliver on these promises. I believe education is the long term answer, as people will then become employable. There is no quick fix.

]]> By: Tlanch Tau http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/michaelfrancis/2009/09/22/the-race-debate-is-a-dead-end/comment-page-2/#comment-96306 Tlanch Tau Thu, 08 Oct 2009 08:15:01 +0000 http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/michaelfrancis/2009/09/22/the-race-debate-is-a-dead-end/#comment-96306 @ Jeff on October 7th, 2009 at 5:04 pm I agree with some of the stuff you say about the ANC and the empty promised. But I don’t get why you had to mention them just after talking about AA when you are supposed to be either talking about way of improving it’s implementation if you really do believe it’s needed. And like I said, AA is needed not just to level the playing field but to make sure that exploitation doesn’t happen going forward. We know that a lot of people in SA are narrow minded and the moment you get rid of it you will find that blacks are now exploited again and the very poor whites that Michael is talking about end up benefiting more than the blacks. All we are asking for is a non racist SA where people will be given equal opportunities. @ Jeff on October 7th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
I agree with some of the stuff you say about the ANC and the empty promised. But I don’t get why you had to mention them just after talking about AA when you are supposed to be either talking about way of improving it’s implementation if you really do believe it’s needed.

And like I said, AA is needed not just to level the playing field but to make sure that exploitation doesn’t happen going forward. We know that a lot of people in SA are narrow minded and the moment you get rid of it you will find that blacks are now exploited again and the very poor whites that Michael is talking about end up benefiting more than the blacks. All we are asking for is a non racist SA where people will be given equal opportunities.

]]> By: Jeff http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/michaelfrancis/2009/09/22/the-race-debate-is-a-dead-end/comment-page-2/#comment-96215 Jeff Wed, 07 Oct 2009 15:04:59 +0000 http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/michaelfrancis/2009/09/22/the-race-debate-is-a-dead-end/#comment-96215 @Po, This redress is way to late for my family, they are now all dead. Only I remain. Just like my father told me. Thing is my father never expected redress and restitution. He accepted the fact that the world is unfair for most people, usually the poor. All he wanted is a fair chance for me. I took it and ended up with a good university degree. I actually have little problem with AA the way it is supposed to work. However the ANC promise the poor the world, then positions are given to loyal members, and not on any form of merit. I would like to see free education and affordable health care for those who need it. Unfortunately I don't think SA is in a position to provide this on a sustainable basis. It has proved to be hugely problematic in many countries who are better off than SA in many ways. The road will be long and hard. That is the way it was for the exploited worker in the UK and it is likely to be even longer here, owing to the country's past. I don't see there is anything to be gained by these promises. Peoples' expectations will be unfulfilled and they get a sense that everything will be provided free. The system will fail them because it is an impossible dream. @Po,
This redress is way to late for my family, they are now all dead. Only I remain. Just like my father told me. Thing is my father never expected redress and restitution. He accepted the fact that the world is unfair for most people, usually the poor. All he wanted is a fair chance for me. I took it and ended up with a good university degree.
I actually have little problem with AA the way it is supposed to work. However the ANC promise the poor the world, then positions are given to loyal members, and not on any form of merit.
I would like to see free education and affordable health care for those who need it. Unfortunately I don’t think SA is in a position to provide this on a sustainable basis. It has proved to be hugely problematic in many countries who are better off than SA in many ways. The road will be long and hard. That is the way it was for the exploited worker in the UK and it is likely to be even longer here, owing to the country’s past.
I don’t see there is anything to be gained by these promises. Peoples’ expectations will be unfulfilled and they get a sense that everything will be provided free. The system will fail them because it is an impossible dream.

]]> By: Po http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/michaelfrancis/2009/09/22/the-race-debate-is-a-dead-end/comment-page-2/#comment-96053 Po Tue, 06 Oct 2009 22:56:00 +0000 http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/michaelfrancis/2009/09/22/the-race-debate-is-a-dead-end/#comment-96053 Jeff: some of my ancestors were working class English too, I get it, don't worry. The point is specifically trying to redress the wrongs of Apartheid in this case. You try telling the majority of South Africans that "it is too late for them". The government relies on those people for votes, so they have to do something about the problem. Surely the ANC is "for the people", including the older generations? Unfortunately Apartheid created an unusual situation which needs to be repaired. Therefore AA is part of the way the world works. The Part of the crime problem in SA is that people get tired of waiting for wealth that sits in their faces every day. The situation in SA calls for something to be done. Would you prefer more violent forms of redistribution than those already going on? There are many instances of victim mentality in SA but I would argue that the support of AA is not one of them. AA does not advocate that a miner suddenly become the CEO of a company. If applied correctly it advocates that amongst people qualified for the job, a previously disadvantaged person is favoured. By the way Britain is this very year in the process of deciding on a policy of AA, aimed partly at redressing class inequalities. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30438609/ Jeff: some of my ancestors were working class English too, I get it, don’t worry. The point is specifically trying to redress the wrongs of Apartheid in this case. You try telling the majority of South Africans that “it is too late for them”. The government relies on those people for votes, so they have to do something about the problem. Surely the ANC is “for the people”, including the older generations?

Unfortunately Apartheid created an unusual situation which needs to be repaired. Therefore AA is part of the way the world works. The Part of the crime problem in SA is that people get tired of waiting for wealth that sits in their faces every day. The situation in SA calls for something to be done. Would you prefer more violent forms of redistribution than those already going on?

There are many instances of victim mentality in SA but I would argue that the support of AA is not one of them. AA does not advocate that a miner suddenly become the CEO of a company. If applied correctly it advocates that amongst people qualified for the job, a previously disadvantaged person is favoured.

By the way Britain is this very year in the process of deciding on a policy of AA, aimed partly at redressing class inequalities.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30438609/

]]> By: Khoza http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/michaelfrancis/2009/09/22/the-race-debate-is-a-dead-end/comment-page-2/#comment-96002 Khoza Tue, 06 Oct 2009 14:21:21 +0000 http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/michaelfrancis/2009/09/22/the-race-debate-is-a-dead-end/#comment-96002 Well - tell that to Eugene Terrablanche and his now reviving AWB. Their recent infamous statements: "As the meeting wore on, speakers grew increasingly blunt. "I'm not speaking emotionally, I'm speaking scientifically," Strauss said. "The African person is genetically programmed for destruction. Everything he touches, he destroys." Another speaker, a former director of the Medical University of South Africa Dr Lem Theron, said South Africa's blacks had never seen a wheel before the Voortrekkers pushed into the interior with their wagons. "The first paper they saw was the Bibles they took from the wagons after they killed the Voortrekkers," Theron said. "The closest they came to brain surgery was beating the Voortrekkers' heads in with knobkerries. Their only engineering achievement was to hitch a plough onto an ox. They have just celebrated Heritage Day - the only heritage their ancestors left them was a couple of clay pots." It really makes one not know whether to laugh or cry. One just wonders whether some of these white people really care about their future and that of their children's in Africa. I mean, it is the whites who have far much more to lose than the blacks in the event of a race war. The majority of blacks are not propertied. They are poor, and far outnumber whites tenfold. Poverty and sufferring is not new to them and yet it will indeed be new to many whites, should they not be careful or mind what they are asking for. Mugabe? Well – tell that to Eugene Terrablanche and his now reviving AWB. Their recent infamous statements:

“As the meeting wore on, speakers grew increasingly blunt. “I’m not speaking emotionally, I’m speaking scientifically,” Strauss said.

“The African person is genetically programmed for destruction. Everything he touches, he destroys.”

Another speaker, a former director of the Medical University of South Africa Dr Lem Theron, said South Africa’s blacks had never seen a wheel before the Voortrekkers pushed into the interior with their wagons.

“The first paper they saw was the Bibles they took from the wagons after they killed the Voortrekkers,” Theron said. “The closest they came to brain surgery was beating the Voortrekkers’ heads in with knobkerries. Their only engineering achievement was to hitch a plough onto an ox. They have just celebrated Heritage Day – the only heritage their ancestors left them was a couple of clay pots.”

It really makes one not know whether to laugh or cry. One just wonders whether some of these white people really care about their future and that of their children’s in Africa.

I mean, it is the whites who have far much more to lose than the blacks in the event of a race war. The majority of blacks are not propertied. They are poor, and far outnumber whites tenfold. Poverty and sufferring is not new to them and yet it will indeed be new to many whites, should they not be careful or mind what they are asking for. Mugabe?

]]> By: jody http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/michaelfrancis/2009/09/22/the-race-debate-is-a-dead-end/comment-page-2/#comment-95999 jody Tue, 06 Oct 2009 13:54:35 +0000 http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/michaelfrancis/2009/09/22/the-race-debate-is-a-dead-end/#comment-95999 Mike francis I don't believe anybody has given a example to make you understand that its not just about scrapping AA and BEE and focusing on the poor masses...your meritocratic ideals and classist perspective is credible however neglects certain truths... Let Tokyo sexwale (rich black BEE beneficiary) go for a late night stroll around or through one of those gated (white) communities in Jo burg or one of the few in cape town. Regardless of the fact that his a billionaire, his black ass will get checked by the patrolling ADT car or the (black) security at at the gate (hopefully his well dressed and didn't get outa bed looking "too black")..He is rich, stinking rich...However still very much vulnerable to RACISM...Does that make sense to you...Scrap BEE those black elites who are the worst of all i agree, however white racism is ever enduring...like yourself many people are adopting a classist perspective on the whole thing which deflects from the truth that whites are consciously or unconsciously still rotten towards many blacks...Thats why an otherwise well thought piece as you one you delivered here can quite easily be discredited due to the very fact that Sexwale will get asked by the ADT guard, 'can i help you'.... Mike francis
I don’t believe anybody has given a example to make you understand that its not just about scrapping AA and BEE and focusing on the poor masses…your meritocratic ideals and classist perspective is credible however neglects certain truths…

Let Tokyo sexwale (rich black BEE beneficiary) go for a late night stroll around or through one of those gated (white) communities in Jo burg or one of the few in cape town. Regardless of the fact that his a billionaire, his black ass will get checked by the patrolling ADT car or the (black) security at at the gate (hopefully his well dressed and didn’t get outa bed looking “too black”)..He is rich, stinking rich…However still very much vulnerable to RACISM…Does that make sense to you…Scrap BEE those black elites who are the worst of all i agree, however white racism is ever enduring…like yourself many people are adopting a classist perspective on the whole thing which deflects from the truth that whites are consciously or unconsciously still rotten towards many blacks…Thats why an otherwise well thought piece as you one you delivered here can quite easily be discredited due to the very fact that Sexwale will get asked by the ADT guard, ‘can i help you’….

]]> By: Jeff http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/michaelfrancis/2009/09/22/the-race-debate-is-a-dead-end/comment-page-2/#comment-95857 Jeff Mon, 05 Oct 2009 16:58:02 +0000 http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/michaelfrancis/2009/09/22/the-race-debate-is-a-dead-end/#comment-95857 @Po and Tlanch Tau, My father was a coalminer in the UK in the Great Depression of the 1930's. My mother was a domestic worker for the local doctor. My two sisters, who were older than me, both worked in factories. We Were poor. No indoor toilet, no bathroom, no phone, no car, a lean-to kitchen. Then I got lucky. The Labour Party came into power after the war. My father said to me: "It's too late for the rest of the family, but you can get an education. Neithet of parents could read or write properly. My father's health was ruined in the mines, at 35 he could hardly breathe. In short, yes it is too late for the older black generation. That's just the way the world works. The best they can hope for is to get their children educated and get into the middle-class. My family lived and died in a little miner's cottage, but were grateful that I could be educated and enter the middle-class, and get out of the cycle of poverty. Why would you think anything different would be possible here. It takes time to build up a middle-class. Get over your victim attitude and read some social history of what conditions were like in Europe for the working classes. Who do you think did all the menial and dangerous jobs in Europe. It was white people. Exploitation is exploitation. @Po and Tlanch Tau,
My father was a coalminer in the UK in the Great Depression of the 1930′s. My mother was a domestic worker for the local doctor. My two sisters, who were older than me, both worked in factories.
We Were poor. No indoor toilet, no bathroom, no phone, no car, a lean-to kitchen.
Then I got lucky. The Labour Party came into power after the war. My father said to me: “It’s too late for the rest of the family, but you can get an education. Neithet of parents could read or write properly. My father’s health was ruined in the mines, at 35 he could hardly breathe.
In short, yes it is too late for the older black generation. That’s just the way the world works. The best they can hope for is to get their children educated and get into the middle-class. My family lived and died in a little miner’s cottage, but were grateful that I could be educated and enter the middle-class, and get out of the cycle of poverty. Why would you think anything different would be possible here. It takes time to build up a middle-class.
Get over your victim attitude and read some social history of what conditions were like in Europe for the working classes. Who do you think did all the menial and dangerous jobs in Europe. It was white people. Exploitation is exploitation.

]]> By: Tlanch Tau http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/michaelfrancis/2009/09/22/the-race-debate-is-a-dead-end/comment-page-2/#comment-95828 Tlanch Tau Mon, 05 Oct 2009 13:39:28 +0000 http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/michaelfrancis/2009/09/22/the-race-debate-is-a-dead-end/#comment-95828 @Po on October 3rd, 2009 at 6:23 pm Very true indeed. That is the issue with these people. It's funny how they are quick to talk about 14 year or so having gone by and that it's time to get rid of AA and BEE but they come up with ideas that will take forever for implement or for them to start making transformation happen. On one of his responses Michael(The Aurthor) mentioned that AA should include everyone poor including whites, but he forgets that when that happens the so called poor whites will be the focus and blacks will not be participants anymore. He should have heard that by now white women are the most beneficiaries of EE. Why is that? One of the most touching photos from the struggle days was of a middle aged man in the 60's with a placard that read "Freedom in our Lifetime" I always asked myself if it ever happened or if he died before 1994. Hope that he made it, but I don't believe we should now just sit and say that the next generation will be the beneficiaries of our democracy. Some of us have burdens of the past and at age 28 we not just ourselves to look after but we have families and extended families that we need to look after due to the past injustices. @Po on October 3rd, 2009 at 6:23 pm
Very true indeed. That is the issue with these people. It’s funny how they are quick to talk about 14 year or so having gone by and that it’s time to get rid of AA and BEE but they come up with ideas that will take forever for implement or for them to start making transformation happen.

On one of his responses Michael(The Aurthor) mentioned that AA should include everyone poor including whites, but he forgets that when that happens the so called poor whites will be the focus and blacks will not be participants anymore. He should have heard that by now white women are the most beneficiaries of EE. Why is that? One of the most touching photos from the struggle days was of a middle aged man in the 60′s with a placard that read “Freedom in our Lifetime” I always asked myself if it ever happened or if he died before 1994. Hope that he made it, but I don’t believe we should now just sit and say that the next generation will be the beneficiaries of our democracy. Some of us have burdens of the past and at age 28 we not just ourselves to look after but we have families and extended families that we need to look after due to the past injustices.

]]> By: Po http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/michaelfrancis/2009/09/22/the-race-debate-is-a-dead-end/comment-page-2/#comment-95699 Po Sat, 03 Oct 2009 16:23:44 +0000 http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/michaelfrancis/2009/09/22/the-race-debate-is-a-dead-end/#comment-95699 Hi Michael, I think this discussion may be dead now but I only just saw your response. The black middle class did not really exist before AA. They benefited from transformation. It is unrealistic to imagine that every single person will be equal in this new democracy, unfortunately. It is better that more rather than few benefit, but some is better than none. The problem I have with your idea of scholarships is that it ignores entire generations of people too old to benefit from scholarships. If we wait for the benefits of those on scholarships to elevate the poor out of poverty, we will be waiting many years before their advantages are passed down to their kids. What about adults who missed the scholarship boat? Is it just tough takkie for them? People want change now, they do not want to have to wait. AA at least reaches some people who would not have benefited before. In an ideal world I would agree with your method, but people want results now, and why should they not? The black middle class has swelled considerably as a result of AA, and this is at least something. Hi Michael, I think this discussion may be dead now but I only just saw your response.

The black middle class did not really exist before AA. They benefited from transformation. It is unrealistic to imagine that every single person will be equal in this new democracy, unfortunately. It is better that more rather than few benefit, but some is better than none.

The problem I have with your idea of scholarships is that it ignores entire generations of people too old to benefit from scholarships. If we wait for the benefits of those on scholarships to elevate the poor out of poverty, we will be waiting many years before their advantages are passed down to their kids. What about adults who missed the scholarship boat? Is it just tough takkie for them? People want change now, they do not want to have to wait. AA at least reaches some people who would not have benefited before. In an ideal world I would agree with your method, but people want results now, and why should they not? The black middle class has swelled considerably as a result of AA, and this is at least something.

]]> By: anton kleinschmidt http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/michaelfrancis/2009/09/22/the-race-debate-is-a-dead-end/comment-page-2/#comment-95483 anton kleinschmidt Fri, 02 Oct 2009 03:07:14 +0000 http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/michaelfrancis/2009/09/22/the-race-debate-is-a-dead-end/#comment-95483 @ Michael....after a break of a week since my last post I have now come to the conclusion that this debate (and many more like it) is quite pointless in the face of such willful ignorance on the part of the Bravo's and Dave Harris's of the world. Let history be the judge @ Michael….after a break of a week since my last post I have now come to the conclusion that this debate (and many more like it) is quite pointless in the face of such willful ignorance on the part of the Bravo’s and Dave Harris’s of the world.

Let history be the judge

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