<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Winnie is mistaken about Mandela</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/khayadlanga/2010/03/10/winnie-is-mistaken-about-nelson-mandela/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/khayadlanga/2010/03/10/winnie-is-mistaken-about-nelson-mandela/</link>
	<description></description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 10:41:24 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Lyndall Beddy</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/khayadlanga/2010/03/10/winnie-is-mistaken-about-nelson-mandela/comment-page-2/#comment-115672</link>
		<dc:creator>Lyndall Beddy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 09:34:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/khayadlanga/2010/03/10/winnie-is-mistaken-about-nelson-mandela/#comment-115672</guid>
		<description>Khaya

Even Mandela himself does not pretend he controlled who was released when, or that he had any idea when De Klerk was releasing whom.

In fact no-one did - not even his De Klerk&#039;s party.

Plus when it suits him Mandela is &quot; a leader who has to make decisions ahead of his people&quot; and other times his decisions are decisions of  &quot; a collective&quot;.

Tutu does exactly the same, except when he goes against the mandate of the church it is God who tells him to do so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Khaya</p>
<p>Even Mandela himself does not pretend he controlled who was released when, or that he had any idea when De Klerk was releasing whom.</p>
<p>In fact no-one did &#8211; not even his De Klerk&#8217;s party.</p>
<p>Plus when it suits him Mandela is &#8221; a leader who has to make decisions ahead of his people&#8221; and other times his decisions are decisions of  &#8221; a collective&#8221;.</p>
<p>Tutu does exactly the same, except when he goes against the mandate of the church it is God who tells him to do so.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Lyndall Beddy</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/khayadlanga/2010/03/10/winnie-is-mistaken-about-nelson-mandela/comment-page-2/#comment-115629</link>
		<dc:creator>Lyndall Beddy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 17:47:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/khayadlanga/2010/03/10/winnie-is-mistaken-about-nelson-mandela/#comment-115629</guid>
		<description>I would stop worrying about who liberated South Africa, and worry about who bankrupted it in 16 years.

And don&#039;t blame whites or apartheid - this is EXACTLY the same pattern that Ghana followed - they were bankrupt in less than a decade and their first president deposed by a coup.

It started with the ANC borrowing to do the Arms Deal and having to follow the rules set by the World Bank and the IMF (who also insisted on the sale of Sasol and all parastatals. Unfortunately they could only find buyers for the profitable ones - Sasol, Iscor, Telkom etc )

 
They made PROFITS for the state in 1994. Not only are the good ones sold, but we are borrowing R400 billion to fix the bad ones that no-one wanted to buy (SAA, SABC, Eskom)

Compare the balance sheet of 1994 and our last National budget and INCLUDE those borrowings, and you will see we are bankrupted.

And who is rich from those sales?

AND we have lost 5 million jobs since 1994, NOT just 1 million last year - and we have NO industrial policy to create jobs, even now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would stop worrying about who liberated South Africa, and worry about who bankrupted it in 16 years.</p>
<p>And don&#8217;t blame whites or apartheid &#8211; this is EXACTLY the same pattern that Ghana followed &#8211; they were bankrupt in less than a decade and their first president deposed by a coup.</p>
<p>It started with the ANC borrowing to do the Arms Deal and having to follow the rules set by the World Bank and the IMF (who also insisted on the sale of Sasol and all parastatals. Unfortunately they could only find buyers for the profitable ones &#8211; Sasol, Iscor, Telkom etc )</p>
<p>They made PROFITS for the state in 1994. Not only are the good ones sold, but we are borrowing R400 billion to fix the bad ones that no-one wanted to buy (SAA, SABC, Eskom)</p>
<p>Compare the balance sheet of 1994 and our last National budget and INCLUDE those borrowings, and you will see we are bankrupted.</p>
<p>And who is rich from those sales?</p>
<p>AND we have lost 5 million jobs since 1994, NOT just 1 million last year &#8211; and we have NO industrial policy to create jobs, even now.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Nthabiseng Matlhobogoane</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/khayadlanga/2010/03/10/winnie-is-mistaken-about-nelson-mandela/comment-page-2/#comment-115526</link>
		<dc:creator>Nthabiseng Matlhobogoane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:42:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/khayadlanga/2010/03/10/winnie-is-mistaken-about-nelson-mandela/#comment-115526</guid>
		<description>When do we stop lying to ourselves?  Mandela sold out, that is that. Black lives are still cheaper, education is still a privilege, hunger/poverty still have Black faces.  Who was he thinking of when he started the negotiations, NOT BLACK PEOPLE!  He wanted out, finish and klaar.  As for Tutu the less said the better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When do we stop lying to ourselves?  Mandela sold out, that is that. Black lives are still cheaper, education is still a privilege, hunger/poverty still have Black faces.  Who was he thinking of when he started the negotiations, NOT BLACK PEOPLE!  He wanted out, finish and klaar.  As for Tutu the less said the better.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: sid</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/khayadlanga/2010/03/10/winnie-is-mistaken-about-nelson-mandela/comment-page-2/#comment-115523</link>
		<dc:creator>sid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:12:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/khayadlanga/2010/03/10/winnie-is-mistaken-about-nelson-mandela/#comment-115523</guid>
		<description>Do I sense a realisation amongst Thoughtists that blaming and continuing to reiterate the half truths and lies used by populists like Winnie and Julius is not productive. The Codesa agreement was a contract that each side was equally unhappy with. The Nat government didn&#039;t want to give up any power and the ANC wanted it all. A compromise was reached.

But what happened next. The human and physical capital inherited by the ANC government was, and continues to be, squandered, bit by bit. By selling assets, corruption, mismanagement and no management. It wasn&#039;t the Codesa agreement that was flawed, it was its implementation, largely by an inept and corrupt ANC government. Race doesn&#039;t even come into it except as a convenient distraction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do I sense a realisation amongst Thoughtists that blaming and continuing to reiterate the half truths and lies used by populists like Winnie and Julius is not productive. The Codesa agreement was a contract that each side was equally unhappy with. The Nat government didn&#8217;t want to give up any power and the ANC wanted it all. A compromise was reached.</p>
<p>But what happened next. The human and physical capital inherited by the ANC government was, and continues to be, squandered, bit by bit. By selling assets, corruption, mismanagement and no management. It wasn&#8217;t the Codesa agreement that was flawed, it was its implementation, largely by an inept and corrupt ANC government. Race doesn&#8217;t even come into it except as a convenient distraction.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Khaya Dlanga</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/khayadlanga/2010/03/10/winnie-is-mistaken-about-nelson-mandela/comment-page-2/#comment-115505</link>
		<dc:creator>Khaya Dlanga</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 14:22:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/khayadlanga/2010/03/10/winnie-is-mistaken-about-nelson-mandela/#comment-115505</guid>
		<description>Sipho, you are talking about talks about talks. Not talks about negotiating the economy, what shape or form the new government would take. He was also negotiating the release of other political prisoners. He basically facilitated the release of the others. He refused to be released before them which is why he was the last &quot;out&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sipho, you are talking about talks about talks. Not talks about negotiating the economy, what shape or form the new government would take. He was also negotiating the release of other political prisoners. He basically facilitated the release of the others. He refused to be released before them which is why he was the last &#8220;out&#8221;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: radiodave</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/khayadlanga/2010/03/10/winnie-is-mistaken-about-nelson-mandela/comment-page-2/#comment-115476</link>
		<dc:creator>radiodave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 12:37:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/khayadlanga/2010/03/10/winnie-is-mistaken-about-nelson-mandela/#comment-115476</guid>
		<description>it took one read through this extraordinarily colourful collection of comments for me to realise something: all this talk of &#039;equality&#039; and &#039;rainbow nation&#039; and all that is just dirt cheap. like it or not, we live in an extremely racially charged society; there&#039;s no escaping it, at least not for the foreseeable future. it&#039;s almost so deeply ingrained and well hid that it&#039;s become an addiction. it makes me incredibly sad. even more so that it takes a touchy topic like this to expose it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>it took one read through this extraordinarily colourful collection of comments for me to realise something: all this talk of &#8216;equality&#8217; and &#8216;rainbow nation&#8217; and all that is just dirt cheap. like it or not, we live in an extremely racially charged society; there&#8217;s no escaping it, at least not for the foreseeable future. it&#8217;s almost so deeply ingrained and well hid that it&#8217;s become an addiction. it makes me incredibly sad. even more so that it takes a touchy topic like this to expose it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: KAGISO</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/khayadlanga/2010/03/10/winnie-is-mistaken-about-nelson-mandela/comment-page-2/#comment-115475</link>
		<dc:creator>KAGISO</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 12:35:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/khayadlanga/2010/03/10/winnie-is-mistaken-about-nelson-mandela/#comment-115475</guid>
		<description>Khaya i always read your stuff-love it most of the times,but THIS,are you really saying you know Mandela more than WINNIE or are you just saying that the version of Mandela that Winnie portrays is wrong,either way this is Winnie&#039;s personal experience of what happened.SHE was the wife throughout all of this</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Khaya i always read your stuff-love it most of the times,but THIS,are you really saying you know Mandela more than WINNIE or are you just saying that the version of Mandela that Winnie portrays is wrong,either way this is Winnie&#8217;s personal experience of what happened.SHE was the wife throughout all of this</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: brent</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/khayadlanga/2010/03/10/winnie-is-mistaken-about-nelson-mandela/comment-page-2/#comment-115467</link>
		<dc:creator>brent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 12:12:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/khayadlanga/2010/03/10/winnie-is-mistaken-about-nelson-mandela/#comment-115467</guid>
		<description>Mtimande, the problem is not that Mandela forgot economic liberation it is that all in the struggle organisations in the late 80&#039;s and early 90&#039;s did: all shouted for sanctions, all endorsed liberation before education, the unions totally rejected all shareholding schemes etc etc. So it is wrong to blame Mandela he just followed what everyone demanded. What did Winnie reccommend back then for economic liberation??? - zero she was too busy attacking everything.

Go read all the publications of that time; the ANC/SACP Unions and everyone associated with bringing down Apartheid, anyone pressing for economic considerations was lucky not to be necklaced.

Now it is 16 years too late and needs patient, dedicated, hard work plus huge huge resources to be ploughed into Black/disadvantaged education and skills training for at least the next 10 years. 

The ANC/SACP/Union allaince leading us should be strongly punished for not starting this way back in 1994.  

Brent</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mtimande, the problem is not that Mandela forgot economic liberation it is that all in the struggle organisations in the late 80&#8242;s and early 90&#8242;s did: all shouted for sanctions, all endorsed liberation before education, the unions totally rejected all shareholding schemes etc etc. So it is wrong to blame Mandela he just followed what everyone demanded. What did Winnie reccommend back then for economic liberation??? &#8211; zero she was too busy attacking everything.</p>
<p>Go read all the publications of that time; the ANC/SACP Unions and everyone associated with bringing down Apartheid, anyone pressing for economic considerations was lucky not to be necklaced.</p>
<p>Now it is 16 years too late and needs patient, dedicated, hard work plus huge huge resources to be ploughed into Black/disadvantaged education and skills training for at least the next 10 years. </p>
<p>The ANC/SACP/Union allaince leading us should be strongly punished for not starting this way back in 1994.  </p>
<p>Brent</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Siobhan</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/khayadlanga/2010/03/10/winnie-is-mistaken-about-nelson-mandela/comment-page-2/#comment-115399</link>
		<dc:creator>Siobhan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 08:00:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/khayadlanga/2010/03/10/winnie-is-mistaken-about-nelson-mandela/#comment-115399</guid>
		<description>@Jon Story. Thank you.

Mandela is a man, not an icon.  He espoused violence at one time and that landed him in gaol for most of his life. He admits his mistakes openly in his autobiography.  I&#039;m sure he had great difficulty making peace with FW but Mandela saw that anything else could lead only to the total destruction of the country and millions of deaths.  

What would be left for &#039;the people&#039; to &#039;inherit&#039; after all out civil war?  Nothing.  The existing infra-structure would be destroyed. The country would have no functioning economy for decades, if ever.  A civil war could only worsen the future for the people Mandela  loved and tried to save from utter ruin.

Mandela had nothing personal to gain from what he did. He wasn&#039;t &#039;playing hero&#039;. He went out of his way to emphasise everywhere he went in the world that it was the &#039;collective&#039; of the ANC that had liberated the country.   If Mandela did anything wrong it was that:  bowing unconditionally to the &#039;collective&#039;.  The &#039;collective&#039; is a convenient way to avoid responsibility and keep people in a state of fear. No matter how stupid the decisions of the collective, one cannot differ.  That is how the Soviet Empire destroyed itself from within--with Winnie-type &#039;purges&#039; of those who dared to differ.

Mandela is not perfect but he is the best the ANC has produced and that is good enough in my book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Jon Story. Thank you.</p>
<p>Mandela is a man, not an icon.  He espoused violence at one time and that landed him in gaol for most of his life. He admits his mistakes openly in his autobiography.  I&#8217;m sure he had great difficulty making peace with FW but Mandela saw that anything else could lead only to the total destruction of the country and millions of deaths.  </p>
<p>What would be left for &#8216;the people&#8217; to &#8216;inherit&#8217; after all out civil war?  Nothing.  The existing infra-structure would be destroyed. The country would have no functioning economy for decades, if ever.  A civil war could only worsen the future for the people Mandela  loved and tried to save from utter ruin.</p>
<p>Mandela had nothing personal to gain from what he did. He wasn&#8217;t &#8216;playing hero&#8217;. He went out of his way to emphasise everywhere he went in the world that it was the &#8216;collective&#8217; of the ANC that had liberated the country.   If Mandela did anything wrong it was that:  bowing unconditionally to the &#8216;collective&#8217;.  The &#8216;collective&#8217; is a convenient way to avoid responsibility and keep people in a state of fear. No matter how stupid the decisions of the collective, one cannot differ.  That is how the Soviet Empire destroyed itself from within&#8211;with Winnie-type &#8216;purges&#8217; of those who dared to differ.</p>
<p>Mandela is not perfect but he is the best the ANC has produced and that is good enough in my book.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: The Creator</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/khayadlanga/2010/03/10/winnie-is-mistaken-about-nelson-mandela/comment-page-2/#comment-115376</link>
		<dc:creator>The Creator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 07:32:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/khayadlanga/2010/03/10/winnie-is-mistaken-about-nelson-mandela/#comment-115376</guid>
		<description>The general consensus in the comments is that the people who hate the ANC and the 1994 consensus think you are right, and everybody else thinks that Winnie has a point.

Maybe not too much of a point, given who she is, but much more than you admit. And she&#039;s dead right about Archappeaser Tutu, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The general consensus in the comments is that the people who hate the ANC and the 1994 consensus think you are right, and everybody else thinks that Winnie has a point.</p>
<p>Maybe not too much of a point, given who she is, but much more than you admit. And she&#8217;s dead right about Archappeaser Tutu, too.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

