“Manto is dead. Good. A selfish and wicked bungler of the lowest order. Rotten attitude and rancid livers — all 3 of them … ” These were the words written by Gareth Cliff on Twitter yesterday upon finding out that the former and much vilified South African minister of health, Manto Tshabalala-Msimang had passed away. These words might end up burying him alive, not just because we are intolerant of other people’s views, it’s the lack of compassion that we find difficult to stomach.
After an overwhelming number of people attacked him for his comments he wrote the following, “Why do people think the dead deserve respect? They’re dead. Even the law is unequivocal: dead people have no rights”. Well Mr Cliff, if you think the dead have no rights try necrophilia and see if you don’t get arrested when caught. The dead have rights. If you think they don’t deserve them at least respect those who are mourning. This was a woman with children, relatives and a large family, she has done many good things too in her life.
We have long tolerated Gareth Cliff, earlier this year when Mike Tyson’s four-year-old daughter died, he wrote on twitter that he couldn’t believe that people were mourning the death of a member of the Tyson household. Of course we will not dishonour his death by saying the things he said about others when his time comes.
A gentleman by the name Clive Simkins then defended Gareth and said to me, “Truth must always triumph over ‘compassion’ or we live a lie”. Truth and compassion are not contradictory virtues. One can be truthful and compassionate at the same time. Just as one can be truthful and still be merciful towards Manto, no matter how angry one is at the policy she had to push. Mercy means ceasing to hate. What is the point of hating a dead person? What makes us human and makes us better than who we are is forgiving the unforgivable. This is why so many hold Nelson Mandela in such high regard. As La Rochefoucauld once said, “We forgive so long as we love”. Much anger I sense, anger leads to the dark side Gareth, I’m sure Master Yoda would have said that to you.
In fact I think that a vast majority of people if they saw George Bush dangling on the edge of a cliff they would reach out to save him. That is mercy. When it is our power to show mercy we show it, even if it is to someone who never showed it to us.
Before I go into my next my phase of this blog I want to make it unequivocally clear that I am not turning this into a racial debate because I know someone will see it fit to pretend that’s what I am turning this into. Now that I have cleared my disclaimer let me make my point. The vast majority who expressed their disapproval of what Gareth Cliff said on Twitter were black. As we know, there is no other racial group that is as affected by Aids as black people in this country. If we who have been affected can find it in our hearts to be generous towards her family in this time and to honour her in death what gives him the right to say the things he has said? I suppose what gives him the right is the fact that our Constitution does in fact give him the right to express these views which are completely foreign in African culture.
This is not really about what Gareth said, it’s about how we respond when people say things we find offensive. Then the second issue at play is tolerance. What do we tolerate? Do we only tolerate those things we accept? But then again, one does not need to tolerate what one already accepts. We tolerate the things we don’t agree with. Tolerance in itself, if you indulge me, is a bit condescending. It conveys the impression that the views being expressed are in fact inferior, it implies that you are wrong but I will humour you. So Gareth, we tolerate you.
Now, should he be fired for saying what he wrote on Twitter? Probably not because he didn’t say those statements on air, on his radio show. Perhaps he should show that he has balls by repeating them on air and we see how big of a man he really is.
Gareth Cliff expressed an opinion which some of us found morally reprehensible. The problem with opinions is that people state them as fact. He declared his opinion so factually (even though opinions in themselves are just uncertain beliefs) as if what he said was a certainty. Not only that, he stated that the dead do not have rights before the law, which is in fact not accurate as I previously stated with the necrophilia example.
I must admit, even I once wrote a blog I called, “Sometimes I wish Mugabe were dead”. But it was my wish that had he died earlier he would have left a far greater legacy. Not because I wanted him to die.
If he said what he said simply to get attention, he got it. Sometimes people who thrive on controversy, or who say controversial things, are quick to use the bullet-proof vest of freedom of expression. I do not and will never deny anyone the freedom to express themselves.
At times, people like Gareth who say the most outrageous things are quick to put themselves on a crucifix and hide behind the veil of misunderstanding because they claim to be saying what everyone is thinking but is too afraid to say. The stupid public does not understand that what they have just said is the truth. We simply are those people who do not understand that we are being saved from our stupidity and blindness. Self-created martyrs who have built their own pedestals, but they are only martyrs unto themselves.
My emotional response tells me that he should be fired. My rational response tells me he should not. We should show him the mercy and forgiveness he refuses to give to the dead. And Gareth, we demand an apology but I know what we’ll get is a show of unprecedented display of sanctimony because, as you will tell us, what you said is true and you don’t need to apologise, in that case then the SABC should let you go.
I think this entire conversations is balls.
RIP Mama Manto.
This attitude that we are cropping in South Africa that aims to silence or sensor people views and expressions is becoming an infectious outrage and an intrusion to our freedoms as a society and to healthy intellectual discussions.
Sure, Gareth is controversial… that’s what makes him a great radio disk jockey. I like that he is not a fencer-sitter and that he can substantiate adequately what he believes in. Everyone deserves mercy just like everyone deserves a platform that the can express themselves on. And if being a disk jockey suddenly makes you someone who is limited in speech, then radio is officially a kak platform to engage people who wish to experience what’s on both sides of the coin. Why must we always be subjected to lovey-dovey talk and pampering thoughts when there are so many wrong doers and doings in the world? Sometimes we are outraged by the things that people like Manto do, but not being allowed to talk about it or tell someone what you feel smells like a bad judgement to me in a democracy.
Great writing Khaya. like wise we like to read your controversial articles and we enjoy them because you open up you thoughts and we get you.
The irony is that she died on Reconciliation Day. It then follows that even on that day this particular individual could not bring himself to have humility. But this speaks volumes for this type of individual and the section of community he represents. They do untold damage to our society. They believe that it is inappropriate to attack certain norms and values. In fact they deem that it is necessary to degrade human beings. The fact that this individual does not attack his own with the same enthusiasm is not surprising. When Helen SUzman died why did he not express such vulgarity at her skewed support for capitalists who ensured that mineworkers lived in horrendous conditions. In fact this very Suzman was complicit in the worst labour conditions suffered by labour during her early days. She never voiced her disgust at private and public industrial sectors and yet we know what happened under those conditions. It is this selectivity that must be questioned simply because there ARE underlying prejudices. If one comes from a cold,selfish,inhumane and priviledged backgroung, I guess that priviledge once again will protect you. But then again, what goes around comes around. He has been given a lot of rope by whom we dont know. But it will be this very rope that will hang him. The laws of our universe just has a certain way of dealing with ppl like this. Remember Reitz?
Cliff is spot with his view on Manto. She really is (sorry was) a nasty piece of work. People have been letting her know their views on her for the past ten years. And now that she has passed on, is she now a saint? Puleez man! Lets not add hypocracy to our ever lengthening list of negitive national traits
Bla bla bla….
I can only hope that Mugabe will soon follow her (?to happier hunting grounds).
Gareth and Julius will continue to annoy us – live with it or ignore it.
Two questions. Who bothers to listen to Gareth Cliff? And why follow him on Twitter, anyway?
Gareth Cliff shouldn’t be fired. What he said was in his personal capacity and not on the radio or TV. It would be false if he suddenly acted sorry that she had died, and as a ‘shock jock’, out of place had he NOT said anything. Yes she is dead and she can’t do anymore harm so therefore all her greed and ignorance should probably be put aside, but really why should death dictate that – you are asking for her to be forgiven for taking people’s lives essentially, but can’t forgive him for being controversial, if a little unfeeling. Just don’t listen to him if it bothers you.
My two cents worth in this matter? Yes Gareth could and should have been more tactfull in his comments, or at least with regards to the timing of his comments.
If not out of respect for Manto – because heavens knows, I didn’t think much of her and her opinions and actions either – then at least to allow her friends and family the time to mourn in peace.
But should he be fired for voicing publicly what he thought and felt whether others like it or not? Did Manto herself get fired when she made public statements that made sane people’s skin crawl? No.
No. Because freedom of speech is just that. And it is important and has been fought for as part of the democratic cause along with many other freedoms. And he has the right to say what he felt. And the fact that he is not hipocritical about his stance is a feather in his cap. And if he said it on an official platform such as his radio show?
Still not. The public media is where freedom of speech should be even more protected. Whether you like what is said or not.
Besides, in Gareth’s particular case, he gets paid to be controversial and to get people talking. You can’t turn around and fire him for being good at what you wanted him to do in the first place.
Khaya, I think you are quite patronising. Personally, I may not agree with Cliff’s reaction but I think it is important that people like him are heard even if it is insensitive and hurtful, and I don’t particularly care whether he’s brave or not. The real point is that in Africa we tend uncritically idolise leaders and put them on pedestals even if they cause tremendous harm to their own people – the attitude of critising leaders must change if this continent is to progress, and criticism can be bad or good, polite or impolite. If you tell me black Africans are too respectful for that I say nonsense because their criticism of particularly white people if often quite vicious and designed to insult more than anything else. I can somehow assure you that when Mugabe dies he will be euligised for his anti-Western (read anti-White) stance and his terrible crimes against humanity in his country will be downplayed.
Some of the late Manto’s actions may have harmed the black majority more than any other group, and if they choose to go easy on her, well, good for them. But that fact alone is not enough reason for members of other groups not to voice their feelings – in my experience, going with the majority may keep you out of trouble but seldom brings about progress.
Gareth is an insensitive, blunt yet thought provoking a$$hole. What he said is out of line.
Posted on Twitter and not said on air, GREAT for him(he knows the rules)however he should keep in mind that he is a public figure and public figures have responsibility to society.
… At this point, he is no better than the late Mama Manto.
It is also imperative that we do not confuse this issue with the abuse/misuse of power/funds in parliament.
Should he be fired, no, not unless he refuses to apologise to the family.
Well said Khaya. You have been very kind too.
Attention Deficit Disorder for which Ritalin is normally prescribed.
Gareth needs a dose of that.
Dear Khaya
Well written, but not well thought through. Rewrite your article, but replace Manto with Hitler, and (in your own mind while writing) “failure to roll out ARVs” with “Nazi death camps”. Then read it again, and see if you still think Cliff should be fired.
Manto was not mentally retarded, which means her HIV denialism, support for quacks like Rath and blind support for these demonstrably false concepts about AIDS were not the result of blameless stupidity, but carefully cultivated selective ignorance of widely available facts that lead to incredible suffering and countless deaths.
The word for that is evil, whether her family and loved ones like it or not, and if we do not publicly expose and criticise evil even after it is dead and gone, we are but whimpering cowards who belittle the deaths and suffering of others out of fear to offend or insult.
i believe Gareth should not be fired, nowhere does it say you must have compasion for anyones death! i believe in freedom of speech and if you dont like what Gareth has to say then dont listen to his show and dont have him on twitter….
Khaya
Where the dead have no rights in law – is that the dead can not be defamed in law. Only the living can be defamed.
However anyone who criticises during the period of mourning of the family and friends deserves no compassion himself.
We cannot, and should not, change history – but this is not the time for critical analysis.
As Christ said “Let him with no sin cast the first stone”.
I’m a young black South Africa female. I am not sorry at all that she is gone.
Yes, maybe the way Gareth expressed it was a little too…? This is why so many wrongs will not be made right in our lifetime. Lastly, i dont think she deserves even the “special funeral” the Presidency is busy workin on.
Gareths remarks can only serve to cause pain to Mantos family.
The only to person to gain out of this will be Cliff
I agree with Sarah – isn’t there something more constructive to vent our anger on. Such as this climate change conference? Where’s the righteous indignation there?
As for Gareth, if you’re so upset by things you don’t like to hear, here’s an amazing trick: UNFOLLOW. Or close your eyes – whichever works.
Pain to Manto’s family? Too bad. Payback for the pain — and death — she caused to thousands of other families. Karma.
Is there a new law that says there can be only one idiot in a lawless democracy that says and does what he likes with no regard for others? Gareth Cliff is surely entitled to belong to the idiot club if he so wish? He certainly qualifies. A club, with due respect for the dead, that Manto was president of?
Khaya, I agree with you on the morality of saying hurtful things about someone who has just died, even if they deserved it, but hey, didn’t you know, morality has gone the way of the judiciary system and the dodo in this country? If Gareth Cliff had a couple of buddies in the ANC, his comments would probably have been lauded. It is who you know and what they owe you, not who you are and what you have achieved (other than crime) which counts in this country now.
Gareth is 100% correct!
why should those that were self-serving be promoted to martyrdom once they pass.We are all responsible for how the world sees us once we’re gone and she should have thought about that before she died.
Gareth’s views (and those of most of us) are manto’s doing.
Yaas Fella’s…. People are commiting heavy bouts of fraud, murder, rape etc… and we are infatuated with firing someone who expressed his opinion on a site created to EXPRESS Opinions!!!!!!!!!!!!!
just leave Gareth alone…
U all are proving one thing- that ur HATERS!!!
Gareth is pro-Science therefore he insults anyone who does not seem to agree with scientific research. So if Manto dis-agreed with scientific research it was only a matter of time before Cliff attacked her.I used to be his fan,I still follow him on Twitter,and he is a fan of Stephen Hawking. This has led me to believe that if you are against some scientific theories then Cliff will mock and diss you. Personally I think Manto was and is right about ARVs! Nothing can substitude a healthy diet*lifestyle*. Cliff always makes mockery of christianity too. Whether he should be fired or not, I dont think he should be fired, this was his personal opinion expressed at his personal capacity.
My opinion is that regardless of what somebody has done in life –as the bible states, Death is the wages of sin. Hence there is in my opinion no reason to dishonour the personage. My belief system as white south african dictates that the family of the deceased be shown compassion and i cannot imagine expressing joy at the death of anyone.
However Khaya — Cliff obviously does not share that belief system. Your entire article seeks to impose upon him YOUR belief system, and to demand an apology because he does not share YOUR belief system.
In totality your article is then intolerant, and arrogant. As you correctly stated the import of tolerance and respect becomes more apparent when ideas, cultures, belief systems and individuals differ from us.
I would not condone Mr. Cliff’s sentiments, and this is the beauty of freedom – the freedom to associate, with individuals, with cultures, with ideas.
I choose not to associate myself with Mr Cliff’s sentiments – but to enforce my sentiments upon him amounts to “a superiority syndrome” – only when I die, or when you die Khaya, will the truth, the rightfulness, the wrongfullness of our course be manifest.
At this point it is not the place of one imperfect and mortal human, to determine the value of another!
Let’s police the law – and not degenerate to the level of China where we police thoughts and ideas, or to the level of South Africa where we attack and kill foreigners -
well said khaya bhuti .somewhere on Obama’s book Audacity of Hope he says something like this we are all entitled to our own opinions but not to our own facts.gareth is entitled to think whatever he thinks about manto and those are his own opinions but we the fact of the matter is manto was a mother,a wife,a colleague, a grand mother,a friend and a role model to many people,even if gareth did not have respect for manto,what about the respect for her family,her friends and her colleagues.im not implying gareth is racist but the way in which he handled the matter suggests that he is.just imagine if a white public figure died today and someone made the same comments………gareth would surely discus it online and with the little respect i have for him i believe that he should be fired !
I don’t like mr Cliff much. I tolerate him I am white and female and I feel that he has a right to speak his mind, but his mind is dark and what he speaks is mostly garbage, disguised in beautiful words in really eloquent English. I would love for him to leave the show, hand it over to someone with morals and compassion. Who plays really cool music …
He tends to make me feel ashamed of listening to his show ..
Being a celebrity means always being subject to public opinion, it comes with the territory.
Her statements and actions as a minister were ungorgettable, and I believe that she therefor intrenched herself in the publics view… intentionaly or not.
As a person I can’t fault her, because I didn’t know her.
The simple fact though is that Manto will be judged by the public for her actions as a Minister, as this is the way in which she touched our lives.
Gareth’s opinion is just that… Gareth’s!
If you don’t like what he has to say, don’t listen to his show, don’t read his comments and most importantly… remember, don’t forget to pick up your beetroot and sweet potatoes on the way home today.
Gareth Cliff is what he is … another blow-hard uneducated (ill-informed) “quasi” liberal youngun still to learn a helluva lot more about the history of South Africa than what his peer group will ever know … That the media finds it in their power or rash decision to grant him too much air-time is a crying shame …
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