“Manto is dead. Good. A selfish and wicked bungler of the lowest order. Rotten attitude and rancid livers — all 3 of them … ” These were the words written by Gareth Cliff on Twitter yesterday upon finding out that the former and much vilified South African minister of health, Manto Tshabalala-Msimang had passed away. These words might end up burying him alive, not just because we are intolerant of other people’s views, it’s the lack of compassion that we find difficult to stomach.
After an overwhelming number of people attacked him for his comments he wrote the following, “Why do people think the dead deserve respect? They’re dead. Even the law is unequivocal: dead people have no rights”. Well Mr Cliff, if you think the dead have no rights try necrophilia and see if you don’t get arrested when caught. The dead have rights. If you think they don’t deserve them at least respect those who are mourning. This was a woman with children, relatives and a large family, she has done many good things too in her life.
We have long tolerated Gareth Cliff, earlier this year when Mike Tyson’s four-year-old daughter died, he wrote on twitter that he couldn’t believe that people were mourning the death of a member of the Tyson household. Of course we will not dishonour his death by saying the things he said about others when his time comes.
A gentleman by the name Clive Simkins then defended Gareth and said to me, “Truth must always triumph over ‘compassion’ or we live a lie”. Truth and compassion are not contradictory virtues. One can be truthful and compassionate at the same time. Just as one can be truthful and still be merciful towards Manto, no matter how angry one is at the policy she had to push. Mercy means ceasing to hate. What is the point of hating a dead person? What makes us human and makes us better than who we are is forgiving the unforgivable. This is why so many hold Nelson Mandela in such high regard. As La Rochefoucauld once said, “We forgive so long as we love”. Much anger I sense, anger leads to the dark side Gareth, I’m sure Master Yoda would have said that to you.
In fact I think that a vast majority of people if they saw George Bush dangling on the edge of a cliff they would reach out to save him. That is mercy. When it is our power to show mercy we show it, even if it is to someone who never showed it to us.
Before I go into my next my phase of this blog I want to make it unequivocally clear that I am not turning this into a racial debate because I know someone will see it fit to pretend that’s what I am turning this into. Now that I have cleared my disclaimer let me make my point. The vast majority who expressed their disapproval of what Gareth Cliff said on Twitter were black. As we know, there is no other racial group that is as affected by Aids as black people in this country. If we who have been affected can find it in our hearts to be generous towards her family in this time and to honour her in death what gives him the right to say the things he has said? I suppose what gives him the right is the fact that our Constitution does in fact give him the right to express these views which are completely foreign in African culture.
This is not really about what Gareth said, it’s about how we respond when people say things we find offensive. Then the second issue at play is tolerance. What do we tolerate? Do we only tolerate those things we accept? But then again, one does not need to tolerate what one already accepts. We tolerate the things we don’t agree with. Tolerance in itself, if you indulge me, is a bit condescending. It conveys the impression that the views being expressed are in fact inferior, it implies that you are wrong but I will humour you. So Gareth, we tolerate you.
Now, should he be fired for saying what he wrote on Twitter? Probably not because he didn’t say those statements on air, on his radio show. Perhaps he should show that he has balls by repeating them on air and we see how big of a man he really is.
Gareth Cliff expressed an opinion which some of us found morally reprehensible. The problem with opinions is that people state them as fact. He declared his opinion so factually (even though opinions in themselves are just uncertain beliefs) as if what he said was a certainty. Not only that, he stated that the dead do not have rights before the law, which is in fact not accurate as I previously stated with the necrophilia example.
I must admit, even I once wrote a blog I called, “Sometimes I wish Mugabe were dead”. But it was my wish that had he died earlier he would have left a far greater legacy. Not because I wanted him to die.
If he said what he said simply to get attention, he got it. Sometimes people who thrive on controversy, or who say controversial things, are quick to use the bullet-proof vest of freedom of expression. I do not and will never deny anyone the freedom to express themselves.
At times, people like Gareth who say the most outrageous things are quick to put themselves on a crucifix and hide behind the veil of misunderstanding because they claim to be saying what everyone is thinking but is too afraid to say. The stupid public does not understand that what they have just said is the truth. We simply are those people who do not understand that we are being saved from our stupidity and blindness. Self-created martyrs who have built their own pedestals, but they are only martyrs unto themselves.
My emotional response tells me that he should be fired. My rational response tells me he should not. We should show him the mercy and forgiveness he refuses to give to the dead. And Gareth, we demand an apology but I know what we’ll get is a show of unprecedented display of sanctimony because, as you will tell us, what you said is true and you don’t need to apologise, in that case then the SABC should let you go.
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77 Responses to “Should Gareth Cliff be fired?”
[…] Thought Leader » Khaya Dlanga » Should Gareth Cliff be fired? www.thoughtleader.co.za/khayadlanga/2009/12/17/should-gareth-cliff-be-fired – view page – cached “Manto is dead. Good. A selfish and wicked bungler of the lowest order. Rotten attitude and rancid livers — all 3 of them … ” These were the words written by Gareth Cliff on Twitter yesterday… Read more“Manto is dead. Good. A selfish and wicked bungler of the lowest order. Rotten attitude and rancid livers — all 3 of them … ” These were the words written by Gareth Cliff on Twitter yesterday upon finding out that the former and much vilified South African minister of health, Manto Tshabalala-Msimang had passed away. These words might end up burying him alive, not just because we are intolerant of other people’s views, it’s the lack of compassion that we find difficult to stomach. View page […]
Actually Gareth is correct, the dead have no rights. Laws re: necrophilia are in place for the mores of society and the loved ones of the deceased, hence the certain legal protections placed on a body. But never mind that. To imply that blacks have more of a right to be angry than a white male is just plain wrong. He’s as much a South African as the black majority is. As far as his getting fired or his repeating his tweet on air. What’s wrong with his being able to differentiate between the correct & incorrect platform for his views?
I thought what he said was distasteful and unnecessary, but calling for him to to be fired over it is somewhat over the top.
The dead don’t have rights, but there are moral judgements to be made in these situations - that’s where your necrophilia example comes in: it’s the morality (or lack of it) of the act that we are disgusted by. That’s why the law exists - not to protect a corpse.
Gareth was out of line with his statement, but Manto left a lot of people with huge feelings of every kind. There was more to her than her disgraceful stint as Health Minister.
It’s just that most of us got ourselves informed and then thought before expressing those feelings.
As I commented elsewhere, the taboo against speaking ill of the dead is not uniquely African. It is as English as tea and toast. If you don’t want a racial debate, don’t use racial stereotypes.
The question is whether the taboo is a valid one, especially in the context of public statements about a public figure whose public policies were publicly derided. The comments, which you’d probably hear expressed at any casual social gathering, are surely aimed at her public persona, not her private person? I’d wager in a private context, such as, say, her funeral, even those who despised everything she stood for would observe a respectful silence, in deference to her family and friends.
Indeed, well written Khaya. However, I agree that him being fired is not the answer. If he were fired what would that say for freedom of speech in SA?
On his radio show he trives on being controversial and this is what gets his attention. I thought he was an ass when I first arrived here and listened to him, but I feel there is most definitely room for compassion. Forget the rest of SA it’s the family who didn’t deserve this. This is not a time to be dishing out mean and unnecessary statements on a public forum. Gareth should know better. This was not the place and certainly not the time to express his view whatever it might be.
While we are debating whether he should stay or go, spare a thought for the family and it them greive in peace.
The anger that Cliff’s comment has unleashed is understandable. It was a deliberately provocative, tasteless statement - even more provocative than his ‘interview’ with Jesus (which got him a BCCSA fine, but did not get him fired). My concern is that there is so much in this country far worthier of outrage, and far more deserving of the description “morally reprehensible”. Rape and murder are surely the benchmark for “morally reprehensible”. To use the same description for Cliff’s statement is completely over the top. If everything becomes morally reprehensible, then nothing is.
Just as rejoicing in the death of the former health minister achieves nothing, so does fulminating over an offensive comment. Keep your outrage for the transgressions that merit it.
Khaya, I’ve always thought your writtings where very good, but this one is as if you were reading words straight from my heart. It’s shame that people like Gavin Foster and Gareth would be so insesitive in less than 24 hour after Manto’s passing. Which reminds me when footage of Sadaam Hussien’s execution where publish, we all cry faul, nevermind that not all of us liked him, but we were sensitive and forgiving enough to know that even him should be treated with respect.
Well written but perhaps too reactionary - dare I say ‘too’ politically correct? I agree with your points around respect and mercy, but surely there is a place in this world for out-there statements? Maybe that place is not radio - but then again - maybe it should be? I don’t think other mediums don’t lend themselves as well.
Gareth says all sorts of politically incorrect stuff and he’s dodged faster bullets than this. That’s why people love him, why people hate him, why he occupies the weekday morning slot and why he plays on 5FM.
Gareth makes light of highly politicized issues in SA and unifies people through laughter and a no-nonsense common-sense autocracy. He goes too far sometimes but he also gives credit where credit is due.
His gleeful insanity steps on the toes of untouchables and appeals to the gatvol and party-mad in all of us. I believe his net-effect is a positive one: he challenges us to let go, be crazy, get off the egg-shells and call a spade a spade. Those are, after all, very South African characteristics! Or perhaps only so when convenient?
Given all the shell walking we do these days, I think he is a necessary pressure release valve. Nevertheless, he should be challenged and made accountable for what he says - as long as we don’t throw the baby out with the bath water!
Oh, re-reading your article I notice Gareth posted his comments on Twitter and didn’t blurt it out over the air… This is perhaps proof that Gareth has been temepered by his previous outlandish statements.
Maybe he thought that since it was posted to his “followers” (indeed they are so named) they wouldn’t have an issue with it.
After all, would you blow open your mates’ politically incorrect Facebook status updates? Probably not. I don’t think Gareth’s case differs much, even given that he is a public figure. His followers waived their “public” hat when they became a “follower”.
Obviously Gareth has never experienced the loss of a loved one,because it’s the kinda thing you wouldn’t wish upon your worst enemy.His words were not only distasteful but disrespectful towards Manto’s family at their time of grieving.
Khaya, am glad u, being one of the most respectable personality within SA twittuniverse, got to stand up and speak up about such profanity. Fine, Gareth is notorious for his ‘botherline harsh way of bringing out the truth, and so far, his use of what people so easily abuse, aka freedom of speech, has proven to be a constructive too. But this one was way out of line. I second the motion of an apology, if he doesn’t want to, show him the door.
Those people responsible for the delayed role-out of ARV’s including preventing transmission to unborn children and HIV denialism are directly responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands if not millions of South Africans. If Manto Tshabalala Msimang was one of those responsible then obviously there will be relief and rejoicing if she is not able to kill any more. let this be a warning to those in power - if you are responsible for genocide then you don’t deserve respect, even if you did it by accident through ignoring the scientific facts as politicians like to do. nobody cried for hitler, verwoerd, strydom, vorster, botha. So lets be fair about this. (and good deeds in the struggle doesn’t give anybody the right to be as neglegent about healthcare as the policies relating to HIV and TB have been) Thankfully President Zuma and Minister Motsoaledi have distanced themselves from this callousness. When will those responsible for these HIV deaths appologise or do they want respect and forgiveness without repenting first? Anybody that is educated and works amongst the poorest of the poor in our country will understand that vulnerable people in South Africa can’t afford the backslapping going on amongst the new and old middle and upperclass while they keep on suffering. Due to a lack of education they need the educated middle and upper class (old and new) to stand up for their rights and not defend callous and heartless policies that are killing people daily.
I dont like Gareth Cliff and never have, he makes a career of sasying nasty things about people to fuel his ego, while his sidekicks giggle like hyenas in the background…
So to be honest I could not give a flying figg about what happens to him, or what he says… he is dead to me….oops nop pun intended
One of the tenets on which the effectiveness of social media hinge very strongly is that we can totally be ourselves in this space. We can speak our minds freely - without inhibition, because another tenet of social media is that nobody controls anything. That on Twitter..
On what you say above..
What you are advocating is that the man be rapped over the knuckles for being himself in the social space.. in fact what you’re saying - perhaps not as explicitly - is that he not only not be himself, but much rather be a hypocrite and say nothing - which goes squarely against his chosen profession..
I think Gareth’s statement is a storm in a teacup if we want to measure it in terms of “damage done” and compare it with.. say government officials..
Before I make my points let me say that I think Gareth Cliff is an inane, mediocre, pseudo-commentator who isn’t worth the price of a TV licence.
I agree completely that one must respect the feelings of Manto’s family and be sensitive to their loss of a loved one, especially at this time of year.
But let’s not lie to ourselves about Manto - she is DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR MORE THAN 200 000 DEATHS of her fellow countrymen. In many other places this is called genocide. Milosovich was tried in The Hague for less. Just because she is dead we must not be scared to speak the truth. If we pretend that she was not this, we have no integrity and no moral courage.
I also agree with one of the comments above - there are far more important things to be concerned about in this country than a post-mortem insult of a person who not only caused so many deaths, but also callously used her political position to jump the queue for a liver transplant (which is actually really just theft) and then was preparing to do it again.
She was selfish, immoral, and corrupt and does not deserve the same respect we would give to a normal decent human being.
I had no time for Manto due to her being an arrogant, incompetent individual whose policies led to the deaths of many.
However she is dead. She cannot hear the comments against her, only her grieving family can. For their sakes people should show some compassion, regardless of their feelings for Manto.
And for that reason Gareth Cliff, of whom I am no fan, is completely in the wrong. He should not be fired though, that would be over the top.
As far as I’m concerned human beings (dead or alive) not only function as biotic subjects bt also as legal subjects; hence we all hv equal rights whether one is dead or alive. So, everyone tht commented against the comment made by Gareth had an interest in protecting the bodily integrity of Dr Tshabalala-Msimang nd her mourning family! Yes everyone has the right to Freedom of expression, but “there should nt be any use of hate speech!” I thnk he shud be fired by the SABC as he hs misused ths right nd what he did was just unethical.
Manto de-liver-ed her last fight to garlickise za. Even good nutrition (whiskey) couldn’t help. There will be beetroot, lemon, olive oil and booze at her funeral. HIV south african who survived the plan of her demonic master thabo, are not welcomed!
As offensive as a statement can be; there ALWAYS needs to be a platform for its expression. Its an eye-opener. Its someone’s truth. Its how we learn. Its the very basis for anti-propaganda. Why hide behind pitiful sensitivity?
Our willingness to get upset and hurt over these things scares me. I don’t want to live in a comfortable box. I’d rather have an all-out open platform. Let me decide! I can handle it.
Offense is received, not given. In all circumstances, I believe. Think about that… If someone’s opinion isn’t worth listening to, don’t listen to it!
I don’t agree with what Gareth said, but maximum props to him for doing it. Stop hiding and trying to climb on such a moral high-horse!
In exactly the same way; I don’t believe Malema should be censored. We need to know what he thinks, and why. We need the whole picture. We need the truth.
So, we cannot poke fun at the dead, but we can strangle a bull in the name of culture? I agree with Cliff, but he should be fired just for being generally annoying…so maybe we can agree on something.
In my opinion (or my “…uncertain belief.” if you will) Gareth Cliff is looking for his 15 minutes of fame. I’m not gonna say that I loved old Manto, but I think you hit the nail on the head when you asked what the point is of making such statements. However, I really don’t give a damn, what really sets my teeth on edge as sj pointed out is why are we not making this much of a fuss when our good friend Melema makes such a comment. I fear that our disregard for his musings as commenplace will come back to haunt us. ( And before you say it, no, this is not a race thing, it’s a Melema-is-a-moron thing.)
Amused-White-Guy on December 17th, 2009 at 7:57 pm
Brilliant Khaya, i was just thinking the same and it is not racial at all. What makes a person African is our ability to often feign remorse when we privately think to ourselves (Good Riddance). It is totally unAfrican to celebrate the death of anyone. Which begs the question…Is Gareth African? Gareth is beyond help. It takes more than being born on African soil or speaking an African language to be African. Shame on Gareth and again shame on his employers if they stick to the verminous person that he has shown he is. I shall however bow my head and accord him some respect when he lies cold and dead when his time comes. God Bless the chap. He needs all our prayers and re-orientation. He needs to learn the principles of UBUNTU which can never be ignored on the basis that we are becoming progressive as society.
Robert Mukondiwa on December 17th, 2009 at 8:15 pm
Manto was a modern day Hitler and we should be dancing in the street.
What is wrong with that? If individual opinions had to follow a code of ‘compassion’ or ‘polite decency’, then we would not have diversity and the Malema’s of this world.
My right to denounce god may be met with a hysterical froth from the devout, but I will bare my buttocks at them and their silly god. Gareth Cliff should do the same and if he must lose his job then he should tell them all to stuff it. Conventionalism is the African way and not a requirement for citizenship in democratic countries.
i’m not sure manto was such an evil person as she is made out to be, i think she just got her facts dreadfully and disastrously wrong. any ignoramus can ignore science and medicine, the disaster here is that this ignoramus was minister of health. is ignorance a crime? if so then gareth is a criminal. after all he is a climate change denier. if climate change ends up killing millions of people the gc will be just as bad as manto for misleading the public. but of course we won’t spit on his grave… we are better than that.
who do gareth cliff think he is does he really think he is a house hold name in MZANTSI how can he talk like that about his elder and the deaths even if mama manto was as bad as he think he is but she doesn’t deserve this thats people like him that make us take arms and kill not because we r murderers but we are defending what our parents and comrades fought for so he deserve to be fired and he must just put it in his mind that black people will be in power till JESUS COMES
phumani silevana on December 17th, 2009 at 11:04 pm
The death of a bad person does not suddenly entitle them to flattering words but for the sake of those who do care about the person, it would be kinder to say nothing. When Mugabe dies, many will celebrate his death. Its not common to hear flattering words about Hitler or Saddam Hussien! Cliff is just verbalising what many who have suffered because of her would like to say.
I agree with Gareth. I also agree that Malema has said much worse things and nothing has come of it. Manto killed over 300 000 people with her incompetence and she must be respected!?
One of the more controversial parts of Eddie Izzard’s hugely popular comedy show “Dress to Kill”, is when he talks about Hitler. It goes something like this:
“And Hitler ended up dead in a ditch, covered in petrol on fire….. That was fun… That’s FUNNY. Because he was a mass-murdering fuckhead!”
Jarring statement. But not one easily argued with.
Perhaps enough time has elapsed that we can say this about Hitler (who is now the universal symbol for evil personified). Perhaps not enough time has passed since Manto’s death to make statements like that. But the essence is the same. They are both responsible for the deaths of innocent people.
Do we now completely absolve people of all their transgressions just because they are dead? Does the sudden show of respect for someone who is suddenly dead not mean that we now somehow condone their actions?
Or is it just a question of waiting for a “proper” time period (whatever that is) to elapse before we can start to raise our voices above hushed tones and start taking stock of reality?
Although my estimation of Cliff has been plumping ever since his egregious sell-out to the exercise in vulgarity that was “Idols,” my cockles were greatly warmed by this effusion. I failed at the time and (your attempts at refuting him being what they are) still fail now to see anything awry with the view that the dead have no rights. The notion that criticism should cease once its targets croak is stupid enough without its being invoked in support of a witless tart at the incompetency of whose hands untold legions themselves have met and are meeting their ends.
As for your contention that her family should be permitted to mourn in peace, I should, in full agreement, be interested to learn in what way they were prevented from doing so. Cliff made his remarks on Twitter, not through a molesting midnight phone call to the departed’s kin. And, if they were offended by his remark, they can take ample solace from the stifled uniformity of the coverage everywhere else.
You have, of course, every right to impugn Cliff’s opinion, even to dub it odious, but it ought really to be plain to you, as one who makes a living off freedom of expression, that impugning his right to voice it is quite beyond the pale.
Trusting that, if I have misinterpreted or misrepresented you in any way, you will take it up with me here,
Rodney Ulyate
Your response to my shock on Twitter about your blog was “Huh?”. That speaks volumes for the addled thinking that underpins all this twaddle about “respect for the dead”. Biologists & atheists such as Richard Dawkins will tell you dead creatures have become nothing but the lifeless residue of what once lived. Mourning the dead derives from an as-yet not fully understood human reaction to loss also seen among other higher animals. The primitive caterwauling over respect for the departed stems in part from ancestor worship, common in SA but neither universal nor binding on non-believers. Having lost dear ones to disease, accident, despair and the inescapable evil of daily life in the most dangerous country in the world outside of a war zone, I know only too well the pain of grief. For this I commiserate with Manto’s family and friends. Their pain is real and profound. I also feel deeply sorry for them that Manto was and will be remembered as an arrogant and misguided individual whose ineptitude and bungling contributed to the untimely deaths of 300,000 people. I pray I never have to live with the pain of knowing that someone I loved was a mass killer. “Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow creeps in this petty pace from day to day” and one day you, me and Gareth Cliff will “shuffle off this mortal coil”. We’d better work now to ensure we don’t deserve the derision Manto has received.
I had a similar response to Cliff upon hearing of Manto’s. Facts are facts. Pity our Z grade celebrity in the form of Gareth Cliff is enjoying attention, whilst we should be mourning those close to us who were directly affected by the barbarous folly of Manto and Mbeki
How hypocritical of the ANC who were talking about indicting Mbeki for groos human rights abuses because of his murderous AIDS denialism only a few weeks ago.
I love how we are honoring Manto, and white washing her sins because she is now dead. What about honoring the thousands of dead due to lack of anti-retro virals for AIDS or the thousands on their death beds because she and Thabo went on a campaign of misinformation?
I have always been amazed at how our society use death like tipex over the long list of flaws and sins of the departed. I’ve sat at funerals hearing what a great husband and father someone was, knowing he beat his wife and kids and had strong alcohol problems.
Let’s remember people and honor the good they do, but also hold them accountable for their wrongs. Either way you spin it Manto did wrong thousands of people and put the fight against HIV & AIDS back by a decade.
There are still cases going on persecuting Nazi perpetrators because the truth should be paramount to emotion and obligation, especially if the truth will honor those who were wronged!
His comments were totally out of order, and even though most in SA silenly agree with him, these sentiments have had their fair share of publicity during Manto’s life already. I fail to see grounds for dismissal, and am sure the labour court would find in his favour should it happen. If he is dismissed it would be a political decision, not a business one, although it could be argued if he lost listeners because of his remarks grounds for dismissal could be upheld.
Your statement in para 4 “the policy she HAD to push” is interesting. Did she not have the ability to decide what to push or not? And who pray tell told her what policies “she HAD to push?
Gareth Cliff is a contraversial character who likes to liven up any situation by giving a contradictory view. When every one was mourning Micheal Jackson, he reminded us of his child abuse accusations, he likes people to use thier heads to think about a situation, and not follow the mass media, just because they tell you it is so!
I wonder what the relatives of all those people who died of AIDS and AIDS related complications would say about this. Because of the pig headedness of one person thousands of people were left without father’s, mother’s, brother’s, sisters, husbands, wives etc And now that one of the principle architects of this genocide is dead we should show some respect??!! Come on Khaya…say it as it is.
As a black African I find our attitude towards death and dead people very mystifying. The virtues of a dead person are extolled even when the vices far outweigh the virtues. What Gareth said is crass no doubt and he should have chosen his words more carefully, but the message remains the same, should we show respect for Manto when she’s dead while her actions led to the death of thousands of people?
Here’s a thought and Khaya mentioned it in his article “..it’s the lack of compassion that we find difficult to stomach.” I have yet to see compassion from the late Manto over 300,000 HIV/aids deaths. In this light I feel Cliff’s comments are justified.
And not you were not turning this into some racial thing, but at the same time we can’t ignore the fact that only blacks stood up to him as you said. What does that say about white South Africans? Majority of them probably agree with what he said.
This attitude that we are cropping in South Africa that aims to silence or sensor people views and expressions is becoming an infectious outrage and an intrusion to our freedoms as a society and to healthy intellectual discussions.
Sure, Gareth is controversial… that’s what makes him a great radio disk jockey. I like that he is not a fencer-sitter and that he can substantiate adequately what he believes in. Everyone deserves mercy just like everyone deserves a platform that the can express themselves on. And if being a disk jockey suddenly makes you someone who is limited in speech, then radio is officially a kak platform to engage people who wish to experience what’s on both sides of the coin. Why must we always be subjected to lovey-dovey talk and pampering thoughts when there are so many wrong doers and doings in the world? Sometimes we are outraged by the things that people like Manto do, but not being allowed to talk about it or tell someone what you feel smells like a bad judgement to me in a democracy.
Great writing Khaya. like wise we like to read your controversial articles and we enjoy them because you open up you thoughts and we get you.
The irony is that she died on Reconciliation Day. It then follows that even on that day this particular individual could not bring himself to have humility. But this speaks volumes for this type of individual and the section of community he represents. They do untold damage to our society. They believe that it is inappropriate to attack certain norms and values. In fact they deem that it is necessary to degrade human beings. The fact that this individual does not attack his own with the same enthusiasm is not surprising. When Helen SUzman died why did he not express such vulgarity at her skewed support for capitalists who ensured that mineworkers lived in horrendous conditions. In fact this very Suzman was complicit in the worst labour conditions suffered by labour during her early days. She never voiced her disgust at private and public industrial sectors and yet we know what happened under those conditions. It is this selectivity that must be questioned simply because there ARE underlying prejudices. If one comes from a cold,selfish,inhumane and priviledged backgroung, I guess that priviledge once again will protect you. But then again, what goes around comes around. He has been given a lot of rope by whom we dont know. But it will be this very rope that will hang him. The laws of our universe just has a certain way of dealing with ppl like this. Remember Reitz?
Cliff is spot with his view on Manto. She really is (sorry was) a nasty piece of work. People have been letting her know their views on her for the past ten years. And now that she has passed on, is she now a saint? Puleez man! Lets not add hypocracy to our ever lengthening list of negitive national traits
Bla bla bla….
I can only hope that Mugabe will soon follow her (?to happier hunting grounds).
Gareth and Julius will continue to annoy us - live with it or ignore it.
Gareth Cliff shouldn’t be fired. What he said was in his personal capacity and not on the radio or TV. It would be false if he suddenly acted sorry that she had died, and as a ’shock jock’, out of place had he NOT said anything. Yes she is dead and she can’t do anymore harm so therefore all her greed and ignorance should probably be put aside, but really why should death dictate that - you are asking for her to be forgiven for taking people’s lives essentially, but can’t forgive him for being controversial, if a little unfeeling. Just don’t listen to him if it bothers you.
My two cents worth in this matter? Yes Gareth could and should have been more tactfull in his comments, or at least with regards to the timing of his comments.
If not out of respect for Manto - because heavens knows, I didn’t think much of her and her opinions and actions either - then at least to allow her friends and family the time to mourn in peace.
But should he be fired for voicing publicly what he thought and felt whether others like it or not? Did Manto herself get fired when she made public statements that made sane people’s skin crawl? No.
No. Because freedom of speech is just that. And it is important and has been fought for as part of the democratic cause along with many other freedoms. And he has the right to say what he felt. And the fact that he is not hipocritical about his stance is a feather in his cap. And if he said it on an official platform such as his radio show?
Still not. The public media is where freedom of speech should be even more protected. Whether you like what is said or not.
Besides, in Gareth’s particular case, he gets paid to be controversial and to get people talking. You can’t turn around and fire him for being good at what you wanted him to do in the first place.
Khaya, I think you are quite patronising. Personally, I may not agree with Cliff’s reaction but I think it is important that people like him are heard even if it is insensitive and hurtful, and I don’t particularly care whether he’s brave or not. The real point is that in Africa we tend uncritically idolise leaders and put them on pedestals even if they cause tremendous harm to their own people - the attitude of critising leaders must change if this continent is to progress, and criticism can be bad or good, polite or impolite. If you tell me black Africans are too respectful for that I say nonsense because their criticism of particularly white people if often quite vicious and designed to insult more than anything else. I can somehow assure you that when Mugabe dies he will be euligised for his anti-Western (read anti-White) stance and his terrible crimes against humanity in his country will be downplayed.
Some of the late Manto’s actions may have harmed the black majority more than any other group, and if they choose to go easy on her, well, good for them. But that fact alone is not enough reason for members of other groups not to voice their feelings - in my experience, going with the majority may keep you out of trouble but seldom brings about progress.
Gareth is an insensitive, blunt yet thought provoking a$$hole. What he said is out of line.
Posted on Twitter and not said on air, GREAT for him(he knows the rules)however he should keep in mind that he is a public figure and public figures have responsibility to society.
… At this point, he is no better than the late Mama Manto.
It is also imperative that we do not confuse this issue with the abuse/misuse of power/funds in parliament.
Should he be fired, no, not unless he refuses to apologise to the family.
Dear Khaya
Well written, but not well thought through. Rewrite your article, but replace Manto with Hitler, and (in your own mind while writing) “failure to roll out ARVs” with “Nazi death camps”. Then read it again, and see if you still think Cliff should be fired.
Manto was not mentally retarded, which means her HIV denialism, support for quacks like Rath and blind support for these demonstrably false concepts about AIDS were not the result of blameless stupidity, but carefully cultivated selective ignorance of widely available facts that lead to incredible suffering and countless deaths.
The word for that is evil, whether her family and loved ones like it or not, and if we do not publicly expose and criticise evil even after it is dead and gone, we are but whimpering cowards who belittle the deaths and suffering of others out of fear to offend or insult.
i believe Gareth should not be fired, nowhere does it say you must have compasion for anyones death! i believe in freedom of speech and if you dont like what Gareth has to say then dont listen to his show and dont have him on twitter….
I’m a young black South Africa female. I am not sorry at all that she is gone.
Yes, maybe the way Gareth expressed it was a little too…? This is why so many wrongs will not be made right in our lifetime. Lastly, i dont think she deserves even the “special funeral” the Presidency is busy workin on.
I agree with Sarah - isn’t there something more constructive to vent our anger on. Such as this climate change conference? Where’s the righteous indignation there?
As for Gareth, if you’re so upset by things you don’t like to hear, here’s an amazing trick: UNFOLLOW. Or close your eyes - whichever works.
Is there a new law that says there can be only one idiot in a lawless democracy that says and does what he likes with no regard for others? Gareth Cliff is surely entitled to belong to the idiot club if he so wish? He certainly qualifies. A club, with due respect for the dead, that Manto was president of?
Khaya, I agree with you on the morality of saying hurtful things about someone who has just died, even if they deserved it, but hey, didn’t you know, morality has gone the way of the judiciary system and the dodo in this country? If Gareth Cliff had a couple of buddies in the ANC, his comments would probably have been lauded. It is who you know and what they owe you, not who you are and what you have achieved (other than crime) which counts in this country now.
Gareth is 100% correct!
why should those that were self-serving be promoted to martyrdom once they pass.We are all responsible for how the world sees us once we’re gone and she should have thought about that before she died.
Gareth’s views (and those of most of us) are manto’s doing.
Yaas Fella’s…. People are commiting heavy bouts of fraud, murder, rape etc… and we are infatuated with firing someone who expressed his opinion on a site created to EXPRESS Opinions!!!!!!!!!!!!!
just leave Gareth alone…
U all are proving one thing- that ur HATERS!!!
Gareth is pro-Science therefore he insults anyone who does not seem to agree with scientific research. So if Manto dis-agreed with scientific research it was only a matter of time before Cliff attacked her.I used to be his fan,I still follow him on Twitter,and he is a fan of Stephen Hawking. This has led me to believe that if you are against some scientific theories then Cliff will mock and diss you. Personally I think Manto was and is right about ARVs! Nothing can substitude a healthy diet*lifestyle*. Cliff always makes mockery of christianity too. Whether he should be fired or not, I dont think he should be fired, this was his personal opinion expressed at his personal capacity.
My opinion is that regardless of what somebody has done in life –as the bible states, Death is the wages of sin. Hence there is in my opinion no reason to dishonour the personage. My belief system as white south african dictates that the family of the deceased be shown compassion and i cannot imagine expressing joy at the death of anyone.
However Khaya — Cliff obviously does not share that belief system. Your entire article seeks to impose upon him YOUR belief system, and to demand an apology because he does not share YOUR belief system.
In totality your article is then intolerant, and arrogant. As you correctly stated the import of tolerance and respect becomes more apparent when ideas, cultures, belief systems and individuals differ from us.
I would not condone Mr. Cliff’s sentiments, and this is the beauty of freedom - the freedom to associate, with individuals, with cultures, with ideas.
I choose not to associate myself with Mr Cliff’s sentiments - but to enforce my sentiments upon him amounts to “a superiority syndrome” - only when I die, or when you die Khaya, will the truth, the rightfulness, the wrongfullness of our course be manifest.
At this point it is not the place of one imperfect and mortal human, to determine the value of another!
Let’s police the law - and not degenerate to the level of China where we police thoughts and ideas, or to the level of South Africa where we attack and kill foreigners -
well said khaya bhuti .somewhere on Obama’s book Audacity of Hope he says something like this we are all entitled to our own opinions but not to our own facts.gareth is entitled to think whatever he thinks about manto and those are his own opinions but we the fact of the matter is manto was a mother,a wife,a colleague, a grand mother,a friend and a role model to many people,even if gareth did not have respect for manto,what about the respect for her family,her friends and her colleagues.im not implying gareth is racist but the way in which he handled the matter suggests that he is.just imagine if a white public figure died today and someone made the same comments………gareth would surely discus it online and with the little respect i have for him i believe that he should be fired !
Bridgeman Ndelemane on January 11th, 2010 at 2:09 pm
I don’t like mr Cliff much. I tolerate him I am white and female and I feel that he has a right to speak his mind, but his mind is dark and what he speaks is mostly garbage, disguised in beautiful words in really eloquent English. I would love for him to leave the show, hand it over to someone with morals and compassion. Who plays really cool music …
He tends to make me feel ashamed of listening to his show ..
Being a celebrity means always being subject to public opinion, it comes with the territory.
Her statements and actions as a minister were ungorgettable, and I believe that she therefor intrenched herself in the publics view… intentionaly or not.
As a person I can’t fault her, because I didn’t know her.
The simple fact though is that Manto will be judged by the public for her actions as a Minister, as this is the way in which she touched our lives.
Gareth’s opinion is just that… Gareth’s!
If you don’t like what he has to say, don’t listen to his show, don’t read his comments and most importantly… remember, don’t forget to pick up your beetroot and sweet potatoes on the way home today.
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Khaya Dlanga* By day he perpetuates the evils of capitalism by making consumers feel insecure (he makes ads). For this he has been rewarded with numerous Loerie awards, Cannes Gold, several Eagle awards and a Black Eagle.
Khaya has an ego-crushing bank balance but an ego-boosting 6.5 million views on the popular video-sharing website YouTube.
Africa's top Digital Citizen Journalist in 2008 for innovative use of the internet, at the Highway Africa conference, the largest gathering of African journalists in the world.
Jeremy Maggs' "The Annual - Advertising, Media & Marketing 2008" listed him as one of the 100 most influential people in Advertising, Media & Marketing.
Winner of Financial Mail's Adfocus New Broom award 2009. He has listed these accolades to make you think more highly of him than you ought to.
* The views expressed in this or any future post are not necessarily his own (unless of course you agree with them).
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[…] Thought Leader » Khaya Dlanga » Should Gareth Cliff be fired? www.thoughtleader.co.za/khayadlanga/2009/12/17/should-gareth-cliff-be-fired – view page – cached “Manto is dead. Good. A selfish and wicked bungler of the lowest order. Rotten attitude and rancid livers — all 3 of them … ” These were the words written by Gareth Cliff on Twitter yesterday… Read more“Manto is dead. Good. A selfish and wicked bungler of the lowest order. Rotten attitude and rancid livers — all 3 of them … ” These were the words written by Gareth Cliff on Twitter yesterday upon finding out that the former and much vilified South African minister of health, Manto Tshabalala-Msimang had passed away. These words might end up burying him alive, not just because we are intolerant of other people’s views, it’s the lack of compassion that we find difficult to stomach. View page […]
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