As I celebrated the emphatic victory of the Blue Bulls over the Chiefs on Saturday, a bad taste was left in my mouth when I saw an old South African flag waving in the stadium. That flag is right up there with the use of the word “kaffir” as far as I’m concerned. If you wave that flag in front of me that’s what you are calling me. Having said that, I also know that not everyone who was there was glad that happened.
Did I enjoy the victory still? Yes. Did I celebrate? Yes. Was I proud of a South African team? Yes. But that does not take away from the fact that the flag dampened the mood over the occasion. In one second, it took us to the past. It has no future in the new South Africa.
The only place that flag must be in is a museum. I know that it still flies over the Castle of Good Hope in Cape Town, that is understandable, it is history. We cannot pretend that flag never existed, but we cannot hide the waving of the flag behind freedom of expression. Like any freedom we enjoy, freedom of expression has limits. A freedom with no limits leads to anarchy.
Chapter 2, section 16 of our Bill of Rights says the following about freedom of expression:
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression, which includes –
1. freedom of the press and other media;
2. freedom to receive or impart information or ideas;
3. freedom of artistic creativity; and
4. academic freedom and freedom of scientific research.
2. The right in subsection (1) does not extend to –
1. propaganda for war;
2. incitement of imminent violence; or
3. advocacy of hatred that is based on race, ethnicity, gender or religion, and that constitutes incitement to cause harm.
That flag will incite violence in the right place and at the right time. It also advocates hatred based on race and ethnicity. Banning that flag does not only protect those who are subjected to what it advocates, but those who advocate the hate it symbolises too. Imagine what would happen to that guy if he were to wave that flag in a Kaiser Chiefs vs Orlando Pirates match. I am all for freedom of expression, but it can’t go unchecked. It must have limits.
I believed then just as I do now that the people who were around the flag carrier should have removed it from whoever was waving it by force. Remaining silent and doing nothing about the flag might be viewed as an endorsement of what it represents even if those who were around the flag carrier were repulsed by the man’s actions. In the words of Martin Luther King Junior: “In order for evil to triumph, good people do nothing.” We all know what it stands for. It stands for the dehumanising of people of colour, racism, oppression, torture and everything that was wrong and immoral about the previous regime.
We could make the mistake of reacting out of emotion and claim that all white rugby supporters are racist and therefore supported the flag waver. The truth is we know better than that.
If the Germans can ban the waving of the Nazi flag I don’t understand why we can’t do the same.
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88 Responses to “Old South African flag must be banned”
South African soldiers went to war under that proud old orange-white-blue flag to defeat Nazi Germany.
Millions of good, loyal South African find the hammer-and-sickle communist banner of the SACP highly disgusting too, conjuring up Stalinist oppression, gulags and 30 million dead opponents. But they just have to suck it up as it comes under “freedom of expression”.
You’ll just have to suck up the orange-white-blue too.
The old South African flag can hardly be equated to the Nazi swastika. It predated apartheid by some 20 years and was the flag under which South Africans fought against Nazism.
Whilst it happened still to be the flag of SA during the apartheid years (in fact some of the Nats wished to replace it with the Vierkleur or somesuch) and whilst I find people waving it at sports events distasteful, I disagree strongly that it should be banned. Far better that normal social pressure discourage people from waving it around.
Do you propose that anyone waving it should be criminally prosecured?
This blog is just so much hysterical and mindless nonsense, and is indicative of a growing mindset in SA that anything which “offends the will of the people” should be outlawed. At the end of this particular road lies the death of free speech and democracy.
Free speech is ultimately more about the protection of the expression of views with which the majority disagreee, than the expresssion of views with which the majority agree. If someone wants to say that apartheid was a good thing (a view which I personally find offensive) then he should be free to do so, and have his views subject to debate.
If displaying the old SA flag is made a criminal offence, then I would advocate people (of all political persuasions) displaying it all over SA in protest against this attack on free speech.
I totally agree with you. On behalf of all white (not that it matters)Blue Bull suppoters, I apologise for allowing a backwards idiot in our midst and letting evil triumph by doing and saying nothing. If all the white people of this country stop complaining about EVERYTHING that is bad, and start really working together for the future of ALL south africans and not allow people to live in the past…we the good people will triumph over evil!!
Bulls you make us proud…idiot with the old flag…you embarrass the team and it’s supporters!!
While I understand – and support – your point, we cannot, sadly, ban idiocy. We cannot outlaw assholes, not matter how much we want to – besides, who gets to say who is an asshole and who not?
I take these guys with a pinch of salt – they are living in the past in a false and forgotten utopia. I guarantee you they are a lot more tortured in the new SA than anyone else because of their mindset – they are imprisoned by their own indoctrination – leave them be and laugh them off, because they will never be part of the country. It’s THEIR loss, not ours.
As a young white male I suppose that the morons waving that flag felt they were representing me. Nothing could be further from the truth. they do not represent me, nor do the represent the vast majority of whites (both English and Afrikaans).
I feel no longing for the “good old days” and I consider that flag as oofensive as the Nazi Swastika.
Although I do not hold the ANC in much regard I am in any event a patriotic South African, proud of my country today and not as the skunk of the world that it once was.I love this land and all it’s people.
It is time that white people take a stand and state, unequivocally, that this is not what we are about, this does not represent us and that we are not willing to be abused by misguided and blind racists.
The Bulls victory was a special moment, the old flag, like Khaya says, left a foul taste in my mouth. But, let us rather focus on the positive and ignore the single fool in a crowd of 50 000+ who was determined to spoil the day for himself and everyone else.
I am not with you on this one. Since the old flag is not banned and I see it in public so rarely, I find comfort in the fact that even though people have the right to display it, they don’t exercise this right.
If the flag was banned we would think that we do not see it because it is banned rather than knowing that we do not see it because no one really wants to show it. The exceptions just prove this.
Short memories some people have!!
He seem to be longing for the sports isolation years.Forgeting that no such international matches took place then.SAD!!
The old SA flag must be banned! Ban the bastard. Its appearance is an affront, it must be suppressed. Three thick lines of orange, white and blue, and some weird symbols in the middle — anything fitting this description will be Banned By The Enlightened Authorities in the new, liberal, intelligent South Africa which values freedom of speech and association but also wants to edit its history.
It makes me wish we had technologies that could affect people’s thoughts. Then we could even suppress our lucky citizens’ memories of the old flag! No-one would ever have to suffer the horror of that image appearing in their visual consciousness. What an improvement that would be.
That would even allow us to eliminate Afrikaans. You know — the ugly and offensive language that was the lingua franca of racism and oppression during apartheid. No-one would be able to speak it anymore. Awesome!
Past experiments with suppression and censorship of symbols and words, as we know, have been roaring successes, with no unforeseen social countercurrents.
Rather than simpy allowing outmoded symbols to fade into obscurity over time, we should apply the force of our righteous morality, ban the old flag and martyrise the sentiments of the increasingly isolated and shunned minorities who wave that ugly rag at in Afrikaner-dominated rugby stadiums in Pretoria. Everyone will be better off.
I fully agree with your sentiments, but I do feel that banning the old flag may be counter-productive. Whenever the flag is waved, there is condemnation from all quarters and we are all reminded of the evil for what it stood. By banning it, the symbol would be made more “attractive” to the young and rebellious and may even become more insiduous - as with the Swastika and the Neo-Nazi movement in Europe.
I am white South African, and I could not agree more - it is definitely time to ban the Apartheid flag. It is a symbol of racism and those displaying it obviously intend to incite hatred and violence.
Do you want to get rid of racism? Do you think you’ll really manage that by trying to suppress it and, in effect, causing it to fester?
Let it out. Let people wave the old flag if they want to. Let them call people kaffirs if they must. The losers in that case will be the foul-mouthed flag-wavers - nobody else.
They aren’t worth the effort, Khaya. And your proposed solution will just add extra time to the problem’s lifespan.
I say - let these idiots show the world what idiots they are. They don’t speak for the rest of us.
Please grow up.
As much as there are Afrikaners with a strong bonding with the past, there are an even larger number of ANC loyalists living in the past of the struggle, machine guns and what all.
The flag has as little to do with “kaff***r” as the machine gun with the struggle. Seems more your imagination playing havoc with your vision.
Try to look forward to more magnificent performances on the world platforms by SA teams. The Boks (or are they now proteas?) are next followed by our darling star performers Bafana Bafana (Promise, no old flags there)
This post shows the normal lack of finesse or tolerance by our newly empowered ANC cadre. No understanding of the history of the old SA flag and the reconciliation it brought to a divided nation. It doesn’t understand the Afrikaaner’s desire for nationhood and symbols.
Some quick pointers on the flag
The flag was imposed by the British long before Aparheit and did not represent the Apartheit view.
South Africans, white, black coloured served under it with pride during the 2nd World War.
Some pointers on suppressing freedom
Some countries suppress freedom very effectively and this leads to an extremely stable government. Consider 4 despotic governments in power for +- 50 years. All very stable. Compare these with 3 countries with freedom and extremely unstable governments, many not even lasting their full term.
- North Korea totally suppresses freedom and has survived 50 years, Compare this to the many unstable governments of South Korea. Viva North Korea!!!
- Myanmar has suppressed freedoms for over 45 years while Thailand dosn’t know what government they’ll have tomorrow. Viva Myanmar!!!
- And what of the 50 glorious years of Cuban stable government.
- Don’t forget our own Uncle Robert in Zimbabwe. Compare this with the unstable governments of that economic miracle of Africa - Zambia.
The simple question – Is it better to starve in a country like north Korea or Zimbabwe or dream of a better life for your grand children in an economic success like South Korea or Zambia
I am a white Afrikaans male of 40, and I am proud of my afrikaan heritage, am I proud of this country’s National Party past? NO! definately not. I do not aggree that the old South African flag should be banned, but I am filled with anger everytime I see some idiot waving the flag at a sporting event, I want my fellow Afrikaner to leave the past behind without a ban on the flag, but out of commen decency. If I look at the picture of the idiot with the flag, I am sure he is not old enough to have been born when that flag flew over South Africa, does he not understand that we would not have played in the super 14 under that flag.
I have also noticed the old South African flag being waved at Freedom Day celebrations in Dubai and I agree, it left a bad taste in my mouth. I agree 100% that flag should be banned. It has nothing to do with culture and everything to do with hatred.
“A person gets from a symbol the meaning he puts into it, and what is one man’s comfort and inspiration, is another’s jest and scorn,” said Justice Jackson.
A symbol is a token which carries meaning, often an entire world of meaning, not necessarily because it resembles or portrays the thing symbolized, but because of the associations it raises in the mind of anyone who grasps its conventional significance. They have the unfortunate power to acquire the importance of what they symbolize. They become objects of veneration or hatred in their own right, and it becomes a sin (or, for enemies, a virtue) to mistreat them. Worst is that symbols live on in their own right long after what they symbolizes has long been forgotten.
Sadly, the one symbol whose meaning is too often forgotten or ignored, is the white dove, icon of peace.
Where do we draw the line? Banning this archaic symbol of oppression, to my mind, would be much the same as banning the image of Che Guiverra on T-shirts. Why not ban the hammer and sickle images too, as a symbol equally fiercely emotional, considering the countless millions whose liberty were brutally oppressed under it? In the same token, perhaps we should also consider banning the Union Jack from out stadiums, a symbol representing the discursive practices and the grim realities of imperialism.
Waiving that flag is certainly insensitive and shouts ignorance. But incitement?
What are you saying about Kaiser Chiefs & Orlando Pirates fans?
If you ban it, it will become a symbol of resistance to the current government. And let’s face it, this government has a lot about it that merits “resistance” (jobs for pals, dodgy contracts, failure to roll out anti-retrovirals properly, failure to build power stations, abuse of state institutions for political ends, etc, etc).
Rather just ignore it and let its’ adherents gradually die out.
I had an argument with a friend of mine straight after the game because I felt it left a really bad taste in my mouth, and he argued it was just the one individual. But everyone in that stadium that saw him with it, and had the opportunity to do or say something, should have done so.
Somehow I’m left feeling that he mostly got cheered on by his neighbours, rather than admonished. The Loftus crowd should be ashamed. It gives the impression that most people there would be waving that flag themselves, if they felt sure they wouldn’t “get into trouble” for it, i.e. not to say they disagree with the waving.
I read such a nice article by a black gentlemen who said his little boy is now a full-on rugby fan after watching such an exciting game. I wonder what seeing that flag would have felt like, for him as a parent.
Ban it, or at least make sure that anyone who you see waving it, gets the message…
Illegitimi non carborundum. Don’t let the bastards grind you down.
They are idiots. They have the right to express this in an overt manner. Their actions say more about them than us. Giving them a platform to protest against, or even presuming their actions are harmful, means they have some validity.
I believed then just as I do now that the people who were around the flag carrier should have removed it from whoever was waving it by force.
By force hey? Nice! So I guess that makes you a hypocrite.
mmmm…I half agree with you. But at the same time I believe people should have a right to express themselves with symbols such as flags, as long as it does not incite violence. The fact is that the flag was not raised at a pirates soccer match, but at a rugby game where the symbol would have attracted a less emotive response. While from your perception the flag is a symbol of racial hatred and oppression, it is still at face value a flag of a government past, and the people waving it should be given the benefit of the doubt, that perhaps they are unsatisfied with the current government for whatever reason. Also, racial slurs have and will always be prominent in South African society, such as the ANCYL’s statements about Zille. It is better that these racial issues are brought into the open, where they can be thought about and challenged, and can challenge our own prejudices, rather than been buried through prohibition, where they will simmer without being addressed.
While I fully agree with you that the old South African flag has no place in the rainbow nation, I have to respectfully disagree with your assertion that it needs to be banned.
This goes along the line of it being an criminal offence in some European countries and brazil to display the swastika or deny that the holocaust happened; I don’t think this really serves a valid purpose. To illustrate my point: I would be very surprised if the majority of the world population don’t think that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad made an absolute idiot of himself when he questioned if the Holocaust happened.
In the same vein, let that bonehead white supremacist display his total idiocy to the world by waving the old South African flag.
Hi Khaya,
I am somewhat older than you, judging by your photo. I can remember the right-wing Nats (not that you will find any in the “New” South Africa) just as incensed as you are, that the “old” SA flag had the Union Jack of Britain in the centre of the flag together with the flags of the Free State Republic and the Transvaal Republic. It was a symbol of the 1910 unification.
To make them even more incensed I flew the flag of the Crown Colony of Natal (and still do).
Relax! Flags are part of history. Put it into perspective. One idiot in 55,000 flew the “old” flag. What progress! You don’t change the law of the country for one lamebrain.
Actually, Khaya, I think we can gain more by not banning it. Every time we see that flag publicly displayed we should use it as an opportunity to protest against its use. In this way we can use it as a way teach the younger generation the significance of civil protest and the importance of freedom of speech. In time everyone will understand the disgrace and shame associated with the old flag. Its a history lesson in itself.
Similarly, to the way the Confederate flag is treated in the US - its not banned outright but stirs up controversy every time its displayed and shines the light on the continuing prejudices in certain parts of the US. Now people clearly understand that is symbolizes - opponents of the flag see it as as a symbol of racism, white supremacy and slavery while proponents see it as a mere symbol of southern culture and history.
In the early years of our democracy some people circulated a animated clip of Mandela turning into a monkey (or something like that - I didn’t see it myself, just read an article about is later). And Mandela’s response really blew me away. He basically said “Listen, we know there are racist people out there. It is not a surprise to us. But this doesn’t affect my personal dignity, I am not personally offended by it. Let the offenders be dealt with, yes, but let’s not let this event incite us to anger.”
It really struck me that he was saying that yes, we know there are racist people out there. We already know it. So let’s not allow their expressions of racism incite us to act in ways we wouldn’t ordinarily approve of.
So in this case:
I would be totally for it if the people sitting around that guy were like “Uh dude, WHATS WRONG WITH YOU??? Get that flag out of here!!!!!”
I believe that is a totally appropriate response! People should be afraid/ashamed to act that stupid in public!
But I don’t think we should allow our anger over expressions of racism be the justification for curtailing our freedoms. Because we don’t want to live in a state that curtails people’s freedom of expression*.
(The flag may make me angry. But it isn’t actually inviting violence.)
* of course there are reasonable limits to freedom of expression.
I think I might have muddled my point above a bit: What I was trying to say is that the impression that I get is that that the general world view is turning against intolerant idiots. Banning this kind of thing might just make it “go underground”. In your illustrated case, it would mean that this bonehead, if they were to (unfortunately) pro-create would “silently” pass on their prejudices to their offspring and lead to the perpetuation thereof.
On the other hand, giving this person the freedom of speech to wear their idiotic intolerance like a badge would give more tolerant people the opportunity to openly point out the total un-acceptability of these views and ultimately have a better change of leading to the eradication of this scourge of humanity.
Still not very eloquent, but I hope I got my point across.
It’s time that some South Africans (such as you, Khaya) realised that banning the expression of unsavoury views does not eliminate those views. It merely drives them underground and makes them more attractive to the disaffected.
Banning the waving of the old flag and prosecuting those who do so, will simply turn them into martyrs. Far more effective simply to pour social scorn on these pathetic apartheid nostalgists.
And has been alluded to above, if you are going to ban all so-called symbols of apartheid, will the same also apply to struggle slogans and songs which still call for bloodshed (such as “Bring Me My Machine Gun”)?
I think Jon has got it right. This flag is a part of the pre-Nat past, not only of the gangsters who came to power in 1948. Although it later came to represent apartheid reactionaries, so what?
If you ban that flag, you must ban the disgusting Hammer & Sickle too.
As a Black South African I find the sight of the flag to be hateful and saddening. I’m glad that all of my white friends agree with this sentiment. That flag should have been banned, I hope it will be soon so that this pain and hurt stops with this generation.
@ Gerry: when you say : “We cannot outlaw assholes”, I sure hope that Jon and Richard P are listening. It’s about time somebody put them in their place.
Khaya, we can not change the past. The more we dwell on it the more we deny ourselves to move forward. The past happend. We can however shape now and the future. Do not pay attention to those who got stuck with the old flag, or the MK old boys marching to Zille. We as citizens of RSA can all rejoice in the victory of the Bulls, irrespective of living in any other part of the country, it was a South African victory, not Pretoria/Thawane alone.
Reactive mode should be turned down and proactive turned up. Your entire article denied you the opportunity to write a celebratary note. Ignore those irretations. The more attention given to rubbish, the more you end up on the rubbish heap.
@Khaya You are comitting an intentional fallacy with this post. You don’t really know what the flagwaver’s intentions or state of mind was (no one can, really), and yet all the things you claim it represents are premissed on what you probably think they were thinking. Can you read minds?
Also remember that to you that flag symbolises opression and suffering - but to many Afrikaners it symbolises a part of their heritage. That it became intertwined with the horrors of Apartheid is an unfortunate fact, but please, try to understand that the okes waving the flag doesn’t automatically intended it to be rascist.
Life is grey. Semiotics rarely are black and white.
To fall back on old habits of banning things when you don’t like it, would just blow extra meaning into what is banned. Let it die a natural death. Symbols of a nation will always be a sensitive issue. What people should feel about a symbol cannot be enforced by law. I am afraid your article will probably cause a few more simpletons to display the old flag at these occasions.
Let’s consider the Nazi Hakenkreuz. It is unambiguous to everone since it was employed to symbolise Nazi Germany and all it stood for, although it was co-opted by Hitler from Arian mythology where it a had a different meaning.
In contrast, the old SA flag was not chosen by the Apartheid regime specifically for their purposes: it had substantial meaning long before that. As such, you cannot claim the flag has a single meaning, namely the one you ascribe to it.
The price of free speech is that neither you, Khaya, nor anyone else have the right NOT to be offended by anything. This is supposedly a non-negotiable right.
What you do have is the right to a dignified existence, and you cannot seriously claim that the display of a flag, the meaning of which is open to interpretation, infringes on this right.
Free speech should be (but isn’t) free and unlimited. Hatemongering and vindictive rallying should be (and are!) illegal. E.g. Zuma’s “Umshini Wam”.
No, I don’t have the old SA flag in my closet. But just to make a point to people with your narrow-minded attitude, I might get one and display it.
The old flag isn’t a symbol of racism. It’s a symbol of defiance, just as the black-yellow-green banner of the ANC flown in the 80s wasn’t s symbol of non-racialism. It too was a symbol of defiance.
Are we not priveleged that we have a dynamic constitution which guarantees our rights?
Lets not lapse into thought control.The previous regime tried that and look what happened to them.
Lets accept that there are those amongst us who get a kick out of being controversial, be it waving the old flag, singing about a machine gun or fooling around on U Tube.
Take it from where it comes and chill. we have so much to live for.
I can’t believe that after 15 years people still feel the need to wave the old flag. I recall seeing it aplenty at rugby games at Twickenham in the late 90s and now fortunately no more. Or so I thought. I seriously thought we had moved passed that. Clearly not. Its quite sad really.
On the matter of it being banned, I’m not sure that will solve the problem. If anything, it may incite more small mindedness and encourage others to dust off their orange-white-and-blues and feature them prominently at any occasion, just because they’ve been told they can’t.
Here’s a thought though. If the proposal is to ban the old flag, would it not stand to reason that our President’s little ditty about fetching his machine gun be banned as well? The county is liberated. Just as many South Africans associate the old flag with oppression and the taking of innocent lives, so too others associate the President’s ditty with innocent lives being taken during the liberation struggle (Magoo’s Bar bombing, etc.). What’s good for the goose must surely be good for the gander…
I am still thinking about this. I am very against banning anything. Look what happens when you ban your kids from smoking? Or what happened when they banned alcohol in prohibition? Whatever is banned becomes instantly coveted.
But I do find the Hammer and Sickle offensive - so many dead relate to that symbol.
I think the majority of white folks still subscribe to/and associate with the old flag. To them it is a symbol of white supremacy and a testimony of “pure Aryan race”. It is a shame that the world does not discourage this network because it predominantely white institution. In America, the presence of the KKK is still felt even today so do the racists SA whites hiding behind rugby game.
Bit of a knee-jerk reaction, Mr. Dlanga. Understandable, but contrary to the spirit, if not the letter, of the constitution.
Besides, what we really need to change is what the spirit of that flag represents. Unlike some of the commentators here, I don’t think that the spirit of racism is going away any time soon. Banning the flag would suppress the image while failing to do anything about what it represents.
Sort of like banning David Bullard instead of exposing him to ridicule.
Why not just accept the old flag as a symbol of the good in the past instead of only the bad? After all, it has also been incorporated into the new flag. I think those who react so violently to the orange-white-and-blue are the same ones who nurse stereotypes of Afrikaners as proto-Nazis and who can’t get over the fact that it was Afrikaners who after all established the most successful country on the African continent. The excellence of Afrikaner rugby is but the most sensational example of this remarkable people’s contribution to the excellence of the new South Africa.
Khaya, I think you should go read Ndumiso Ngcobo’s “Is it coz i’m black” chapter on the regular AWM - you’ll understand that some people are really nursing their bruised ego, and perhaps we should regard them as patients who truly seek help.
I dont know why you all are so in to the wrong things black people always complain about stuff that dont matter like a flag or changing a town name but you seem not to see things that really matter like the crime rate and we proud to be the 2 most dangerous country in the world with a low employment rate well we beat all rates of bad i will say , thats why i live in Germany now for South Africa is now ending up like the rest of Africa ,just not working out so yes let us talk about the 2010 that will be i joke with the crime and every thing that goes with it and people when they see the new flag they say beware of that country its dangerous ..
Why does the new South Africa seem to equate any thing associated with Afrikanerdom with apartheid? It was a period of history, not it’s entirety. It is not the same as banning the swastika in Germany, it is akin to banning the national German flag because of a dark period in their history.
Shall we ban the national flag of Zimbabwe because of Mugabe’s racist policies?
Must all of Afrikaner culture be destroyed before you are happy?
For surely this vengefull spirit is at the bottom of it. Or guilt in the case of Dave Harris and Ms Lipinsky.
As a 49 year old white male I would like to say that the old flag means NOTHING to me! I am very proud of the new flag and could not give two hoots if the old one is banned. It has serious negative connotations for me too. Ban it, get rid of it, lets move forward!
“That flag will incite violence in the right place and at the right time.”
being a foreigner in south africa will incite violence in the right place and at the right time.
being a [non-member of an area’s dominant ethnic group] will incite violence in the right place and at the right time.
should either of the above be banned? you may think it sounds specious to go that route, but there are so many things in that category. germany and austria have banned outward signs of “nazism” and as a result there is a thriving underground neo-nazi movement in both places; banning had the exact opposite of the desired effect.
and given the overall crime rate in this country, you would think that people would actually obey this law if it were to be enacted anyway.
when i’m in parts of the united states where people fly around the stars and bars, i think “dumb redneck” and let it go, despite the grief inflicted upon my family by such people. [and such people have inflicted a lot of grief on my family, let me tell you.]
are people here really that fragile that an outright ban is necessary? giving the idiots attention, which is what a ban would be doing, would be making the problem worse, not making it go away.
Well I don’t think we need to engage in comparisons or justifications. Fact is that for the majority of citizens in this country the old flag and those flags that it encapsulates represent oppression. We don’t need it, and those who hoist it in defiance should enjoy as must sensitivity to their disposition in life as what they show others, namely none.
@ mundundu
“such people have inflicted a lot of grief on my family, let me tell you”
You reap what you sow. Remember your recent racist statement against Indians http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/franblandy/2009/05/22/the-art-of-logic-–-the-identity-row/
Just a reminder to keep things in perspective mate!
@Fhatuwani Rambau - don’t associate the ‘majority’ of white people with this. Every country has it’s problem children who cling to a disgraceful past - it doe NOT reflect the mood of the majority.
the argument of banning the communist flag is silly. the communist symbol is used by communist organisations around the world without issue. stalinist russia was a part of communism, not the whole of it.
arguing that the old SA flag was created by the brits is also irrelevant; it was the flag under which an apartheid government ruled.
so stop squirming and finger pointing and trying to be so smart! the old flag is offensive, recognise that, in balance i agree it shouldn’t be banned, but give the morons a good bollocking should you see them flying it.
big up to the white south africans who have commented here who have voiced their displeasure of the waving of the old flag even though others sound like they wish they could have waved that flag themselves.
old flag or not, we’re moving forward and there ain’t nothing those who still long to be excluded from the world can do about it. the past is past good-bye and move on or the past will distroy you. you will never enjoy the now if you are still stuck in the then. you who lives in the past also belong to the museum. i will take my kids around one time to see what the past looked like i hope you are a picture of the future not the past. big up mr dlanga.
man - the best thing to do would have been to walk RIGHT up to this MORON, and taken a clear-as-day pic of him from the front waving that flag, and then put it out there in the blogosphere…
Khaya, instead of banning the obscene emblem how about making a fortune from it? … I have a business proposal that could make us billionaires … toilet paper printed with the old flag.
I am always gobsmacked by some white people’s views, they always leave me wondering whether people become defensive because they feel personally attacked when black people (or anyone else for that matter) brings up issues of racism and apartheid or because they truly believe what they say. I am always left wondering whether they realise what country they’re leaving in and the damage done by apartheid and colonialism to the majority of our people.
Any right thinking person knows that apartheid was evil and anything that symbolises it should not be allowed in this country still trying to come to terms with its effects, full stop! That some people don’t seem to get that is shocking and makes me think that we have a long way to go. I become hopeful, though when some white people are able to separate themselves from apartheid and racism.
It’s also always interesting to see that people find ways of justifying the unjustifiable - ‘well, the communist flag is offensive to me, so it’s ok that 90% of the population should be offended by the apartheid flag’.
Reconciliation and the generous spirit seem to be expected only from black people, who did nothing wrong in the first place. How shameful and ungrateful.
Obviously flag is offensive to blacks. So what if it came before the Nats - the previous crowd including the British gave no rights to blacks either.They were no better than the nats just smoother. Whites seem to think there were two sides who both had faults during the struggle. This is like saying the french resistance and the nazis were just two factions both guilty of atrocities. I don’t mind the old flag but that is just my opinion - it just causes unneccessay trouble
Come on, people. Whatever you feel about the past, let’s not call the flagwavers morons, idiots or rascists. They’re people with rights, just like you and me, and waving a piece of cloth with colours on it around pretty much is one of the most legal things you can do.
It merits repeating: nobody here knows what the waver’s intentions or state of mind was when they waved it. By shortguessing them as racsists you are merely guilty of stereotyping.
Wherever the hammer-and-sickle banner flew, that country was invariably a one-party brutal dictatorship where dissidents were imprisoned, tortured, forced into slave labour or, simply, executed.
Now THERE is an emblem much worse than the swastika or something as tame as the fine old orange-white-blue national flag.
siyabonga ntshingila on June 4th, 2009 at 10:41 am
Those waving the old SA flag 15yrs into democracy could be equated with those waving their “struggle” card at every turn. They cannot bear to accept the new SA.
They should all “get a life” and let us get on with nation bulding.
While I don’t agree, I did not hear you say that it’s probably not polite of Jacob Zuma to sing about his Machine Gun…if that doesn’t incite violence, then I don’t know. Also, lets rename a street in Durban Che Guevara.
Put your money where your mouth is and apply to the Constitutional Court to ban the flag. Then, ban Afrikaans, Pretoria etc. etc.
Get over it!! Stop living in the past and blaming apartheid and the old flag for everything. It’s time to grow up. By the way, that guy will NEVER go to a soccer match waving the old flag just as much as a Black man will go to a rugby match and sing “Kill the Boer, Kill the Farmer”!…So what’s your point? Stop playing the “black and apartheid” card…it’s getting very boring. We as white people are moving forward and prospering. You can too if you’re only willing
My feeling is that we are not really changing or moving forward if we want to take legal action (what is proposed - beat him, lock him up without trial?) against someone (1 in 50 000) that waves the old flag.
The new SA allows me an opinion and the freedom to express it. It should be recognised that this freedom may offend someone but, in the new SA, he/she should recognise that this is a part of the freedom that was fought for.
Let’s move beyond petty things and try and embrace true freedom and equality. Then use our energy to make SA better by fighting crime, corruption etc.
This many posts on this subject tells me that it still hits very raw nerves - for everyone.
personally, I like the old flag. Not because I am white or think backwards or of white supremacy and all that bulls*it, but because that is the only flag I knew when growing up. As a 10 year old I was able to play outside in the veld until after dark, our school was never burned down, I learned of respect towards others in my school, I learned to keep my country clean and I learne what it is to be proud of who I am. My kids dont have that today, they are not safe, the ANC leaders sing of machine guns and the likes of Malema are complete racists. What is so much better under the new flag than the old one? I understand for some the association is traumatic, but that is because of ACTIONS against them. The flag did not hurt them, people did, just as PEOPLE today are hurting us, not the flag. I think tolerance is what we need in this country. Not cries of banishment.
Although I agree with your sentiment, don’t you think it’s time to write about the real issues in South Africa, rather than one idiot at a televised game?
My wife and kids were involved in an armed robbery at our house a year ago. My wife was beaten, raped and told that all white people must die. My kids were beaten and tied up for a few hours.
Now please tell me you’ve got the mentality to write about more worrying issues in our beautiful country than an idiot at a rugby match? Or are you gonna turn around and look the other way while this continues on a daily basis to our citizens? Tell me you are bigger than this?
It left a bad taste in my mouth seeing the old flag, but what is more worrying is the fact that this incident got the attention of the world, but daily incidents like robbing, raping and killing are overlooked.
Instead you find solace in overlooking one of the best Super rugby finals you’ll ever see, and complaining about an idiot with a flag. If that dampened your mood, then please look the other way in future when another idiot holds up an old flag at a rugby match, you know, like looking away at the real issues in our country!
don’t ban the flag. We cannot give our government that right. The issue I have is if that flag is outlawed today, what will be banned tomorow. Seeing how the ANC ignores the contributions of other Freedom fighter(Sobukwe, Biko), who knows what they will do with movements that will one day oppose them. I hate that flag, but i believe that it gives us an opportunity to deal with issues such as racism. Banning only gives the Racists more power. We may create an opening for froups like the Nazis and KKK. Waving their flags in secret meetings, planning crazy terrorist schemes. As long as its out in the open, I feel safer cause I will know when its coming.
A few days ago I was driving and decided to stop a second or two before the traffic light went red. I heard crazy hooting behind me, when I looked in my rear view, a white man a car behind me going furious, and saying he knows why I’m stupid - it’s because of the colour of my skin. I wanted to insult him too, but it was about 7.45am and I was not about to let someone ruin my mood for the whole day - instead I looked at him and laughed and he became more furious and I continued with my day.
My point - If someone doesn’t like you or hates you for whatever reason, it’s thier problem. There’s no point in wasting time trying to change thier mind. Let them live thier lives and continue with yours
Truly speaking,constutution aside and apatheid out the window, we need to focus on more important issues in our society than mundane things as banning of flags! Whoever that idiot was, am sure he flippin’ got the message now and hopefully he won’t display his stupidity in PUBLIC again. Fellow South Africans, be you black, white, indian, coloured, red, green…whatever colour you are, those days are over…get used to it. We will not tolerate your intolerance of the new South Africa. I may have not been around and I may have not studied history but what I do know is that we REALLY need to move on with the times….Blacks had it bad, so what? Get over it…People died in the process, hello??? they are not going to be resurrected from the dead (as yet), we are thankful for all they did, we respect their memory and we are truly greatful…we are moving on…all the whites, boers or british who think they are having it tough…GROW UP… “if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen” Call me a “kaffir”, words don’t hurt me….let’s pull our acts together and live harmoniously, that is really not asking for much…or is it? It’s your choice….just remember though…THOSE DAYS ARE GONE!!!
I know I’m late, but I thought I’d throw this out there anyway.
People *died* under that flag. For that flag. Truly believing in their nation. And it paid off, didn’t it? We wouldn’t be where we are now if it weren’t for them.
So, go ahead, hate the flag if you must, but please remember the blood, sweat and tears spent by the people who died for us, before it got its negative connotations.
@frigmage: People died under that flag? Indeed they did. Protesters, strikers, people who suffered under the stress of forced removals, people who were prevented from access to medical care, people in unsafe working conditions in the mines. People beaten to death in jail. etc etc Yep. Loads of people died under that flag.
I don’t think we could ban it the way our freedom of speech works.
Khaya,maybe I would’ve felt the same as you if I were a black person,so I’m sort of trying to think me into your position.
Look, we can all get emotional about the old flag,black or white. We can also get emotional about the new flag too,good or bad.
I was raised under the old flag,I did’nt asked to be raised under that flag,it just happened to be. The old flag is all I knew. Ye right,bad things happened in SA while that flag was flying,but we have to get over it.Just as Afrikaners had to get over British domination, and we did, you must carry on too.We even had the union jack inside the old flag.
Remember,is just a piece of material man with a design on it. Personally I don’t accept the new flag,nobody asked my opinion or held a referendum on it. If you dislike the old one,don’t try and force it down the throats of people on the other side of the spectrum.
You do’nt see us carrying on about the new flag.Remember we lost our freedom because black people are in the majority,so you can’t just force the new one to be accepted just like that. We have a history as well,good or bad.
If the old flag was so bad why was’nt it banned at the CODESA negotiations,because they did’nt
deem it neccessary,that’s why. Then the old part of the national anthem(DIE STEM) should’ve also been banned.We can go on and on.
What concerns me,is that you have a big voice with the Mail & Guardian and I encourage you with your next article to paint both sides of the political spectrum and not just the one side.
Never ever can any law or so called political correctness force a person’s heart and mind in a certain direction.The National Party tried it for 46yrs and could not succeed. The ANC will not succeed either.
SMART is also trying through court action to get the flag banned.If I was a betting man,I would bet that they won’t succeed. It’s about freedom of expression within the context of the law and as it stands for now,it’s not illegal.Once it’s banned,what’s next?
You journalists know about the freedom of expression threat towards you guys,so please see it in that context. It’s things like this that prohibited SA from becoming a nation in unity after 16yrs.
The SACP is still using that much hated symbols of communism,which were responsible for millions of people dying throughout the last century. How about a discussion on communist symbols to be banned. Maybe something new to think about.
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Khaya Dlanga* By day he perpetuates the evils of capitalism by making consumers feel insecure (he makes ads). For this he has been rewarded with numerous Loerie awards, Cannes Gold, several Eagle awards and a Black Eagle.
Khaya has an ego-crushing bank balance but an ego-boosting 6.5 million views on the popular video-sharing website YouTube.
Africa's top Digital Citizen Journalist in 2008 for innovative use of the internet, at the Highway Africa conference, the largest gathering of African journalists in the world.
Jeremy Maggs' "The Annual - Advertising, Media & Marketing 2008" listed him as one of the 100 most influential people in Advertising, Media & Marketing.
Winner of Financial Mail's Adfocus New Broom award 2009. He has listed these accolades to make you think more highly of him than you ought to.
* The views expressed in this or any future post are not necessarily his own (unless of course you agree with them).
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South African soldiers went to war under that proud old orange-white-blue flag to defeat Nazi Germany.
Millions of good, loyal South African find the hammer-and-sickle communist banner of the SACP highly disgusting too, conjuring up Stalinist oppression, gulags and 30 million dead opponents. But they just have to suck it up as it comes under “freedom of expression”.
You’ll just have to suck up the orange-white-blue too.
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