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	<title>Comments on: Ready for a new national identity</title>
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		<title>By: oldfox</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jontyfisher/2007/10/29/ready-for-a-new-national-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-16696</link>
		<dc:creator>oldfox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 21:24:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jontyfisher/2007/10/29/ready-for-a-new-national-identity/#comment-16696</guid>
		<description>Brandon, a few contradictions in your post. &quot;Apartheid has created a hatred of work, because work brought no rewards to the workers&quot;
&quot;millions want to work but cannot.&quot;

I worked in a factory, alongside workers of all races during the height of apartheid (1980s).  Maybe some hated their jobs, but many did not. Some gave up the teaching profession to work in the two Pretoria factories of this company. Productivity was as high as in factories in the European country where this multinational had its headquarters. Working conditions were as good as anywhere in Western Europe. Actually, that factory had, at one time, the shortest turn around time in the world for board repairs, shorter than factories in the USA or Taiwan producing the same/similar boards.   Alas, the rapid reduction in trade tariffs under the new govt, removal of local content provisions and the lack of new incentives resulted in these factories closing down and the workers becoming unemployed.  
Black mineworkers set world records in shaft sinking during the apartheid years. Black workers from a Rembrandt factory in SA apparently went to Germany to show workers there how to optimally operate cigarette making machines. 
Around 1997/8 (admittedly, a few years after the new govt came into power) black workers at Samsung&#039;s consumer electronics factory in Mogwase were able to make a TV set using manual labour at lower cost than the Koreans could in highly automated factories in Korea.
Productivity and Quality start at the top, in a factory. If people complain about SA factory workers (many industry &quot;experts&quot; claim SA factory workers are unproductive) , they should direct their criticism at factory management, not the working class.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brandon, a few contradictions in your post. &#8220;Apartheid has created a hatred of work, because work brought no rewards to the workers&#8221;<br />
&#8220;millions want to work but cannot.&#8221;</p>
<p>I worked in a factory, alongside workers of all races during the height of apartheid (1980s).  Maybe some hated their jobs, but many did not. Some gave up the teaching profession to work in the two Pretoria factories of this company. Productivity was as high as in factories in the European country where this multinational had its headquarters. Working conditions were as good as anywhere in Western Europe. Actually, that factory had, at one time, the shortest turn around time in the world for board repairs, shorter than factories in the USA or Taiwan producing the same/similar boards.   Alas, the rapid reduction in trade tariffs under the new govt, removal of local content provisions and the lack of new incentives resulted in these factories closing down and the workers becoming unemployed.<br />
Black mineworkers set world records in shaft sinking during the apartheid years. Black workers from a Rembrandt factory in SA apparently went to Germany to show workers there how to optimally operate cigarette making machines.<br />
Around 1997/8 (admittedly, a few years after the new govt came into power) black workers at Samsung&#8217;s consumer electronics factory in Mogwase were able to make a TV set using manual labour at lower cost than the Koreans could in highly automated factories in Korea.<br />
Productivity and Quality start at the top, in a factory. If people complain about SA factory workers (many industry &#8220;experts&#8221; claim SA factory workers are unproductive) , they should direct their criticism at factory management, not the working class.</p>
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		<title>By: Brandon</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jontyfisher/2007/10/29/ready-for-a-new-national-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-9406</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 04:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jontyfisher/2007/10/29/ready-for-a-new-national-identity/#comment-9406</guid>
		<description>Amazing changes to the people can only come from effort!

Currently any wealth we have is the result of past labour, albeit that whites made blacks labour and enjoyed the fruits, the fruits are still the result of labour.

We have a high unemployment rate, which means almost half of the national capacity is not productively engaged. Half of the other half are in a crazed feast of consumption, as witnessed by out of control consumer spending and widening trade deficit....in short most of the nation are sitting around the fire, feasting and drinking and dancing, and enjoying the spoils of war --- no one is out planting, collecting water, wood.......so how long can the fire burn?

Mbeki has tirelessly laboured at keeping the milk and honey flowing to the feast, but he has not been able to keep up with the gluttonous demands of an out of control appetite.

We need policies, which get people to work, into manufacturing or producing provisions for ourselves firstly. In time we can expand that productive activity to cater beyond our borders.

Those policies need to create an environment in which people want to be be productive, where wages are realistic for both employer and employee, and relative to the capacity of our land.

Apartheid has created a hatred of work, because work brought no rewards to the workers.......the true revolution is to shake off that constraint, to develop incentives for people to work, and be rewarded, while at the same time bringing expectations of what the reward should be - back down to earth.  We are a poor country and we should be prepared at first to work hard for minimal reward, and then from that platform to increase the reward as our collective wealth increases.

We cannot afford luxury, we need work, and millions want to work but cannot.  Poor service delivery is just one indicator that there is capacity for more workers to be taken up in the economy, it just means channeling money away from redistribution, and consumptive efforts.

The best spend is to pay salaries, so that all can buy and pay for services, and service provision becomes worthwhile, of value, and improves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amazing changes to the people can only come from effort!</p>
<p>Currently any wealth we have is the result of past labour, albeit that whites made blacks labour and enjoyed the fruits, the fruits are still the result of labour.</p>
<p>We have a high unemployment rate, which means almost half of the national capacity is not productively engaged. Half of the other half are in a crazed feast of consumption, as witnessed by out of control consumer spending and widening trade deficit&#8230;.in short most of the nation are sitting around the fire, feasting and drinking and dancing, and enjoying the spoils of war &#8212; no one is out planting, collecting water, wood&#8230;&#8230;.so how long can the fire burn?</p>
<p>Mbeki has tirelessly laboured at keeping the milk and honey flowing to the feast, but he has not been able to keep up with the gluttonous demands of an out of control appetite.</p>
<p>We need policies, which get people to work, into manufacturing or producing provisions for ourselves firstly. In time we can expand that productive activity to cater beyond our borders.</p>
<p>Those policies need to create an environment in which people want to be be productive, where wages are realistic for both employer and employee, and relative to the capacity of our land.</p>
<p>Apartheid has created a hatred of work, because work brought no rewards to the workers&#8230;&#8230;.the true revolution is to shake off that constraint, to develop incentives for people to work, and be rewarded, while at the same time bringing expectations of what the reward should be &#8211; back down to earth.  We are a poor country and we should be prepared at first to work hard for minimal reward, and then from that platform to increase the reward as our collective wealth increases.</p>
<p>We cannot afford luxury, we need work, and millions want to work but cannot.  Poor service delivery is just one indicator that there is capacity for more workers to be taken up in the economy, it just means channeling money away from redistribution, and consumptive efforts.</p>
<p>The best spend is to pay salaries, so that all can buy and pay for services, and service provision becomes worthwhile, of value, and improves.</p>
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		<title>By: Tyson Beasley</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jontyfisher/2007/10/29/ready-for-a-new-national-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-4702</link>
		<dc:creator>Tyson Beasley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2007 10:19:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jontyfisher/2007/10/29/ready-for-a-new-national-identity/#comment-4702</guid>
		<description>Selebi, Manto, Mbeki, Jake White, Stofile, Zimbabwe, beaches, HIV, Slums, Violence, crime, Rape, 2010, Chabaan, Sheik, Hlope, Fijnbos, Sunshine, murder, rainbow, theft, Mandela, Apartheid, Racism, Tuberculosis, Zuma, Diamonds, Rugby. 

Is there a ramshackle &#039;National Identity&#039; to be cobbled together from this list? Is there a political trajectory to found here? Or will we become another bad version of the US?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Selebi, Manto, Mbeki, Jake White, Stofile, Zimbabwe, beaches, HIV, Slums, Violence, crime, Rape, 2010, Chabaan, Sheik, Hlope, Fijnbos, Sunshine, murder, rainbow, theft, Mandela, Apartheid, Racism, Tuberculosis, Zuma, Diamonds, Rugby. </p>
<p>Is there a ramshackle &#8216;National Identity&#8217; to be cobbled together from this list? Is there a political trajectory to found here? Or will we become another bad version of the US?</p>
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		<title>By: Grant W</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jontyfisher/2007/10/29/ready-for-a-new-national-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-4614</link>
		<dc:creator>Grant W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2007 07:11:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jontyfisher/2007/10/29/ready-for-a-new-national-identity/#comment-4614</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think a national identity is something that is ultimately decided around a table. As with your examples, it is drawn from the mood of its people and the policies of the state at a time in history, together with how others see us. We did not chose to be known as a smiling but poorly governed, violent nation with a high crime and HIV infection rate and cheap ocean-front property which is how many perceive us internationally right now. 

To change our identity is surley to beat these problems and see what emerges? Sure we can aim somewhere and perhaps that could be decided around said table. In fact it probably has already in the form of our constitution! In the end we will be identified by what we achieve and not what we say; how we live up to that constitution will define us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think a national identity is something that is ultimately decided around a table. As with your examples, it is drawn from the mood of its people and the policies of the state at a time in history, together with how others see us. We did not chose to be known as a smiling but poorly governed, violent nation with a high crime and HIV infection rate and cheap ocean-front property which is how many perceive us internationally right now. </p>
<p>To change our identity is surley to beat these problems and see what emerges? Sure we can aim somewhere and perhaps that could be decided around said table. In fact it probably has already in the form of our constitution! In the end we will be identified by what we achieve and not what we say; how we live up to that constitution will define us.</p>
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		<title>By: One Project to help humans &#187; Ready for a new National Identity?</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jontyfisher/2007/10/29/ready-for-a-new-national-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-4591</link>
		<dc:creator>One Project to help humans &#187; Ready for a new National Identity?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 14:30:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jontyfisher/2007/10/29/ready-for-a-new-national-identity/#comment-4591</guid>
		<description>[...] under Perspective, News &amp; Politics. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] under Perspective, News &amp; Politics. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Marian</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jontyfisher/2007/10/29/ready-for-a-new-national-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-4554</link>
		<dc:creator>Marian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 09:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jontyfisher/2007/10/29/ready-for-a-new-national-identity/#comment-4554</guid>
		<description>How about using our Constitution as the guide for what our identity should be. We don&#039;t need any more angst-ridden sessions of wishful thinkers. The best brains on all sides of the transition to democracy worked damn hard to come up with what is rightly lauded as the best Constitution in the world. Now, all we - and in particular, the ANC and its butt-sucking cadres in top institutional posts - have to do is to work hard to make  that Constitution part of the DNA of our democracy and our identity will evolve. It&#039;s not magic wand stuff. Just commitment to making the vision of the Constitution work for all of us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about using our Constitution as the guide for what our identity should be. We don&#8217;t need any more angst-ridden sessions of wishful thinkers. The best brains on all sides of the transition to democracy worked damn hard to come up with what is rightly lauded as the best Constitution in the world. Now, all we &#8211; and in particular, the ANC and its butt-sucking cadres in top institutional posts &#8211; have to do is to work hard to make  that Constitution part of the DNA of our democracy and our identity will evolve. It&#8217;s not magic wand stuff. Just commitment to making the vision of the Constitution work for all of us.</p>
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		<title>By: martin</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jontyfisher/2007/10/29/ready-for-a-new-national-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-4549</link>
		<dc:creator>martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 07:56:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jontyfisher/2007/10/29/ready-for-a-new-national-identity/#comment-4549</guid>
		<description>Thank you for that point of view. What I will like to add is that this country has a lack of service directions. It needs guidens for service delivery to the people, since 1994 there has never been amazing changes into the people&#039;s lives. 

When ever the must be changes or service delivery, people needs to fight first with its government that was placed there by the same people whom fight for the service delivery. It is not fair to give someone the authority to rent your house and then after he/she takes out with the court order and never see your house again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for that point of view. What I will like to add is that this country has a lack of service directions. It needs guidens for service delivery to the people, since 1994 there has never been amazing changes into the people&#8217;s lives. </p>
<p>When ever the must be changes or service delivery, people needs to fight first with its government that was placed there by the same people whom fight for the service delivery. It is not fair to give someone the authority to rent your house and then after he/she takes out with the court order and never see your house again.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack Mufana</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jontyfisher/2007/10/29/ready-for-a-new-national-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-4536</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack Mufana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Oct 2007 22:48:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jontyfisher/2007/10/29/ready-for-a-new-national-identity/#comment-4536</guid>
		<description>What South Africa needs now is a strong and viable opposition party to counter the ANC. This is important because any national debate with regard to national identity or other issues will be dominated by the ANC. As you mentioned we are already starting to see the seeds of intolerance from the ANC when it comes to opposing views. This is true because the ANC can get away with it due to the opposition being so weak and fragmented. Look at all the scandals the government has gone through so far this year, yet it is hard to hold it accountable. The Manto affair is a perfect example of a situation which sparked wild debate on whether or not she should have been fired. The majority of the nation in my humble opinion plus the media wanted her gone. However, the president arrogantly retained her services because SA does not have a powerful oppositional political force to be the people&#039;s voice in a national debate. 
In the US, Bush had to accept the resignations of his Secretary of State, Secretary of Defence and Attourney General because of their questionable job performance and overwhelming public dissaproval against them. This wouldnot have been possible if the democrats were not there putting the heat on these individuals and the administration. In SA who is around to put the heat on Thabo and the ANC. Therefore, what kind of national debate can take place when the majority of the people&#039;s views are easily ignored by a government that knows that the DA&#039;S whining is what it is just weak whining, that does not scare the government one bit.
It is funny, SA needs the presence of a formidable opposition lke the MDC in Zim, while Zim needs the democratic space that SA offers to it&#039;s multitude of weak pathetic opposition parties. I will conclude by saying if SA does not drift away from it&#039;s ANC hegemony, the debate on national identity might end up like the one in ZIM. Wait a minute! did Zanu PF even allow the people of my country to have a debate on National identity?.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What South Africa needs now is a strong and viable opposition party to counter the ANC. This is important because any national debate with regard to national identity or other issues will be dominated by the ANC. As you mentioned we are already starting to see the seeds of intolerance from the ANC when it comes to opposing views. This is true because the ANC can get away with it due to the opposition being so weak and fragmented. Look at all the scandals the government has gone through so far this year, yet it is hard to hold it accountable. The Manto affair is a perfect example of a situation which sparked wild debate on whether or not she should have been fired. The majority of the nation in my humble opinion plus the media wanted her gone. However, the president arrogantly retained her services because SA does not have a powerful oppositional political force to be the people&#8217;s voice in a national debate.<br />
In the US, Bush had to accept the resignations of his Secretary of State, Secretary of Defence and Attourney General because of their questionable job performance and overwhelming public dissaproval against them. This wouldnot have been possible if the democrats were not there putting the heat on these individuals and the administration. In SA who is around to put the heat on Thabo and the ANC. Therefore, what kind of national debate can take place when the majority of the people&#8217;s views are easily ignored by a government that knows that the DA&#8217;S whining is what it is just weak whining, that does not scare the government one bit.<br />
It is funny, SA needs the presence of a formidable opposition lke the MDC in Zim, while Zim needs the democratic space that SA offers to it&#8217;s multitude of weak pathetic opposition parties. I will conclude by saying if SA does not drift away from it&#8217;s ANC hegemony, the debate on national identity might end up like the one in ZIM. Wait a minute! did Zanu PF even allow the people of my country to have a debate on National identity?.</p>
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		<title>By: nomad-one</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jontyfisher/2007/10/29/ready-for-a-new-national-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-4525</link>
		<dc:creator>nomad-one</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Oct 2007 18:20:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jontyfisher/2007/10/29/ready-for-a-new-national-identity/#comment-4525</guid>
		<description>The need to engage has never been greater, your post has hit the nail on the head. We need to decide where we want to go and set real goals for ourselves has a nation, and we need to see that we work towards those goals in a meaningful manner. I started a website www.one-project.org after turning this whole thing over in my head for quite a while and your post just confirms what I was trying to express. Could I use this post on my site with a link to this page?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The need to engage has never been greater, your post has hit the nail on the head. We need to decide where we want to go and set real goals for ourselves has a nation, and we need to see that we work towards those goals in a meaningful manner. I started a website <a href="http://www.one-project.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.one-project.org</a> after turning this whole thing over in my head for quite a while and your post just confirms what I was trying to express. Could I use this post on my site with a link to this page?</p>
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