I was talking with some family members a while back about rape and something scary became apparent. Most people think that there is a grey area between yes and no, and that sometimes even when you say no, people are still sympathetic to the person who continues to have sex with you anyway. We were talking about a heterosexual relationship between a boy and girl, where the one partner wants to have sex and the other doesn’t, but they do have sex. I said — it’s rape. They said — it’s sex. I became alarmed.
The difficult thing is that in these situations it’s just the two of you. There is nobody recording to hear you say yes every time you say sex, and sometimes people don’t say yes or no. Sometimes sex is not as clinical as “can I insert my penis into your vagina” and a response of yes making it consensual and a response of no making it rape. Sometimes people don’t talk at all, but that doesn’t absolve them for raping someone. Their argument was that in these situations there is a grey area — that sometimes a girl might say no and mean yes. Or that sometimes the girl might lie their passively. Or that if a girl didn’t take the action to extricate herself, then she shouldn’t cry rape the next morning. There argument was that the woman was not the one without the power. I became more alarmed.
I could hear the growing power of rapists and their defence in my ears as though they were all shouting “we’ll get off”. Ordinary South Africans feel that there is this space between yes and no. That sometimes a no is a yes, and that sometimes a silence is a yes, and that if a woman doesn’t fight to the death to get away, she is somehow at fault. We are failing rape survivors by thinking these things.
- If you have sex with someone and they a) say no OR b) push you away OR c) try to close their legs or twist their body away from you OR d) do not participate in the sexual act you should STOP what you are doing, brave the awkwardness and ASK — is everything ok? Do you still want to have sex?
- Just because a person says no but does not kick and scream and run away, OR if a person does kick, and scream and tries to run away and fails and thus is there and has sex, this does not mean that that person has consented to having sex, and doesn’t mean that s/he has not been raped, and s/he is entitled to lay a charge of rape against you whether you have never had sex before or you have had sex a thousand times.
Rape is a complex charge to lay against someone. It is made all the more complex in situations where you have had sex with the person you accuse of raping you before. It is made more complex by the number of men and women who use physical cues to indicate when they do and don’t want sex, rather than saying “yes” or “no”.
But I think it’s pretty clear when the sex you’re having is something that you want to be involved in or not, and that someone doesn’t always have to say NO for you to know that you’re raping them.
Agreed. It is dodgy terrain. I believe that if the women is not responsive and ‘just lies there’, whether because she’s not interested in having sex with you or she’s intoxicated in some way or is perhaps mentally/physically handicapped, the man should ASK first if it is okay. I understand the games people play during sex but this should become a standard. Ask first.
If she doesnt want it, she might be in shock from fear and the surprise of this man on her and unable to move or speak so by asking she can at least shake her head that no, it is not ok. if the man intends to rape, he will not ask, he will not care, he will purposefully ignore her words or kicks or tightening her legs together, he will use force and manipulation. And most times such a man will then turn around and say but she wanted it or she didnt seem to not want it.
ASK before sleeping with her to make sure you are not this man, to ensure that it is not rape.
The only time sex is okay is when mutual foreplay has taken place.
Anything else, even between married couples, represents rape to me.
Unfortunately to many people want to find grey areas so that the can absolve themselves of their action. In reality one can never escape the judgment one fells on yourself.
I think that you have answered your own question, and clearly laid out the parameters in (1) and (2).
This is also to my knowledge pretty much where the law stands, too.
You have also avoided some of the thorny but key issues – for example that of diminished capacity (the victim is drunk or under the influence of drugs, even though these may have been willingly imbibed)and the role of “culture”.
Here, Jacob Zuma’s evidence in his rape trial springs to mind ” In my culture, when you have sexually aroused a woman, you do not leave her unsatisfied” – the unspoken words are “even if she has a change of heart and says “no”. I have changed my mind – I do not want sex with you – stop and go away”
Another issue is that the courts need to apply the same type of sentences to false rape accusers who were not raped at all, but are too embarrassed to admit to parents or peers who they have willingly slept with.
This is probably extremely rare, but if we are going to deal very harshly with rapists – a position which I wholeheartedly agree with – then we should deal equally harshly with false rape accusers, so that the courts can be very confident that all rape cases brought before them have absolute merit.
I recall an incident of some ten or so years ago. A girls was accosted by a rapist in her own home and it was quite clear that if she didn’t aquiesce then significant bodily harm was inevitable. She became what she called herself, “The perfect rape victim”. She made it quite clear that she was doing this against her will, gave the miscreant a condom, insisted he use it, and then lay passively while he violated her. After he left she went immediatley to the police and reported a rape. The miscreant was apprehended but insisted that she gave permission for the act, which, technically, she did. But the court understood and he was found guilty of rape anyway. How many suffer like this? Was Zuma’s trial a similar case?
This makes sex even more complicated, doesn’t it?
Just a thought. And it is not properly researched, but I think that maybe rape should be defined as time when both parties are not comfortable in engaging in sexual conduct. That would at least include males in the law as people who are able to be raped.
Jeniffer is correct, it is a touchy subject, but I’m sure a person would know when they are raping someone.or at least engaging in unwilling sex. It’s a tough one, and I’m willing to hear more on the subject.The power is too much with the rapists.
Hmm, this is a complex one. The law and areas of such personal behaviour are strange bedfellows, if you will excuse the inappropriate and unintentional pun. The challenge here is that you also need to take a legal viewpoint, as the law presumes innocence and requires a clear demonstration of guilt in order to sustain the burden of proof. Body language or inarticulate non-verbal sounds are difficult to interpret legally. Thus I would strongly encourage any potential victims of rape, rather than remaining mute or relying on body language to signal their intentions or lack thereof, to clearly and loudly say ‘NO’ in whatever language makes sense, whether or not there are any witnesses present. And I say this with the best interests of the potential rape victim at heart, both from a legal position and from the position that this clear and unambiguous statement, unlike much other bedroom communication which is highly personalised and open to interpretation, will hopefully send a clear message to the rapist and reduce the incidence of rape.
Agreed wholeheartedly Jen. I am tired of women being blamed for not beating potential rapists to death or at least unconcious.
I agree with you here Jennifer. Many of us have had to deal with a male “friend” who believe that just because you agreed to go out for dinner, you have consented. Many women, especially when they are younger, have sex that they do not consent to but cannot cry “rape” because you knew the person, you liked them enough to go out with them in the first place, people saw you kissing etc. Even though you state clearly that you dont want to have sex, the guy “convinces” you otherwise by all means possible and once the deed is done believes that there was no harm done.
I just wish young women were more careful and realised that these things happen. Furthermore, men need to know that having sex with a woman who does not want it is rape. Unfortunately our society does not see things the way we do. I am saddened every time when I see young women being picked up outside university residences to go to a party with a group of guys. Where I come from, a night that strted that way often ends badly for the girl.
Well if a research can be conducted of how many men are or have been jailed after being falsely accused of rape, you will be shocked.Let us not be afraid of telling the truth, if a woman shouts stop to a man at the last second before the man comes and the man comes because at that stage he could not holsd himself, is that rape? Why should a woman in her sober senses, get into a room with a man, engage in foreplay have sex and in the morning when she regrets the act cry rape? Again you will be appalled by the number of men who are blackmailed into giving money or material things to women after having consensual sex for the fear of being reported for rape.It is hogwash to state that women are powerless and or vulnerable in the sexual act, many of them know how to abuse this sexual activity by claiming they said no when in actual fact they did not, its just that they felt guilty afterwards. It is my view that the cautionary rule in matters involving so called rape when a woman voluntarily went into a bedroom/car/anyplace with the intention of having sex and afterwards cries rape should be returned if already abolished, anyway it is known that a jugde in his/her mind will have doubts in a case such as this.
The issue is further complicated by psychological issues. On the one hand women secretly fantasize about being ravished, as anyone who’s ever peeked into a Mils&Boone romance would know, and on the other a man’s ardour is increased by a female playing “hard to get”. This is explainded by the simple biological fact of relatively scarce ovula and abundant sperm. Procreation for men is therefore extremely competitive and in such a world only the most aggressive and rapine are rewarded with offspring. The past few centuries of sexual mawkishness has already yielded to more primal attitudes as the monolithic Christian church fragmented and moral censure lost much of its sway.
Too many grey areas here, whether you like it or not. Sure, there are very clear “yes” and “no” scenarios on two extremes, but there is an area in the middle where the woman might initially show unwillingness, then starts indicating physically that she wants it, without using words, and actually participate in the act. But I agree that where there is doubt and a clear “non”, man must retreat and regroup (ahem) another time…
@Matome – well aren’t you just a walking source of myths about rape?
1. A real man can stop himself at any point during sex. If he carries on after you’ve asked him to stop he is a rapist.
2. I didn’t say women are powerless. But, just because a woman was unable to escpe, doesn’t mean that she consented. Read Graham Johnson’s comment above for more info.
3. The cautionary rule has been rightly abolished because to treat survivors of rape as though they are lying is demeaning and disempowering. Nobody applies the cautionary rule when someone says they’ve been mugged, rape should be no different.
@Robard
It may be true that women fantasise about being ravaged, and women may even fantasise about being raped. The important thing to note is that when a woman is fantasising, she is in control of that fantasy and she can stop at any time. In contrast, in a situation of rape that control is taken away.
Fantasising about rape is not the same as giving anyone permission to rape you.
Most boys/men are mostly brought up by women (mother/gran/teachers) so it is long term in women’s hands to teach men/society that NO means no anytime during any encounter.
There is a subtle situation that i found on entering the dating scene after 28 years of faithful marriage. The dating game had changed a lot and women were much more “into sex” and sort of more direct and i lost out badly (with much scorn) with some really exciting ladies more than once by not taking the hint/clue and “doing it”.So suggest there are many men out there who are equally confused and might just blunder into a rape situation but are not really rapists.
Remember 99% of real/normal men are not slick Hollywood Brad Pitts who get ± 10 retakes to perfect the seduction and have learnt the lines situation perfect for the movie.
Brent
I think that becausenoonewouldtalk, Graham Johnson and Mark Robertson (as always) have very neatly summed up.
The point raised by Matome I raised in my earlier comment, and I sincerely believe that such false accusations that result in trial and conviction are extremely rare – if Matome has reliable research or statistics that prove the contrary, I would love to see them.
@becausenooewouldtalk – as a man, I cannot imagine having sex with someone that was not an active and enthusiastic partner – rejection and non responsiveness is a comlete turnoff for most men.
As for making love to someone that just lies there without any motion or feedback, you may as well poke a hole into a watermelon and go for it!
One last thought – in terms of the very strict definitions of rape above, many men could have been considered to have been raped by wives and girlfriends, including yours truly!
I regard that as “agressive seduction”, rather than rape as men are usually mutch stronger than the woman and if they really were not interested, they could end the interaction – it usually goes something like “not, tonight, Josephine – I’ve got a headache / whatever, how about tomorrow, OK – what the hell”
@ Matome Innocent until proven guilty in all cases. Therefore the premise is the woman is lying until proven telling the truth. The onus is for the woman to PROVE there was no consent.That is what I understand is Jennifers point. A woman has to go and relive the whole experience to prove she did not give consent.
Whereas most men would view going out kissing necking petting taking of of clothes including underclothes as partial consent. She says at any stage even after penetration a woman can say no and a man should retreat on the spot.
Oh and the “rape “as in the above case is rape. Its equivalent to a car jacker intent on stealing a car from a woman driver who takes that opportunity to rape her.
There is no 1st degree 2nd degree or 3rd degree rape. just rape.
In my village a woman who says yes to sex is a slut.So all married males are rapists who should be in jail.
I agree with you matome any woman who you have sex with and you wake up together and have a lovely breakfast then cries rape is lying.The courts agree with this position as in Zumas case.
Yes. You have to say no, if you are capable of speech.
But, if you’re incapable of speech, the default setting is no.
yup.. take all the magic out of sex so that women can continue pulling the “victim” card.. I was raised to believe that men and women are equal, what I don’t understand is why a self-proclaimed feminist would want to make women out to be weak and incapable of making their voices heard?
shane – it’s not about women being weak and incapable of making their voices heard! that’s not what the article is about. it’s that if it is rape or if there is an element of force/violence and the woman does not want it, does not want sex, fear can overcome her and it does so in three ways, fight, flight and freeze – freeze being where the body physically goes still and the mouth too. it is a survival mechanism because we are animals and it is not about winning but about surviving. in cases where the woman can move and speak, where fear has not gripped her to that extent, she might be afraid that by saying no or pushing the man he might become more aggressive and violent. not all men and not all sex is this way but some is and this is what jennifer is discussing. is had nothing to do with whether women are weak or not! if a murderer demands your wallet else he’ll kill you, do you fight, do you say no, and face being stabbed or whatever, or do you give in, let him take it and then run, having had your life spared? and if you do the latter does that make you weak? no, it makes you smart.
Well summoned up “becasuenoonewouldtalk” it’s bizarre how many times one has to reiterate No! Is No!