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	<title>Comments on: Kicking out the homeless and other house-cleaning activities</title>
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	<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jenniferthorpe/2010/03/29/kicking-out-the-homeless-and-other-house-cleaning-activities/</link>
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		<title>By: X Cepting</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jenniferthorpe/2010/03/29/kicking-out-the-homeless-and-other-house-cleaning-activities/comment-page-1/#comment-117844</link>
		<dc:creator>X Cepting</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Apr 2010 12:52:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jenniferthorpe/2010/03/29/kicking-out-the-homeless-and-other-house-cleaning-activities/#comment-117844</guid>
		<description>@Aragorn23 - Oh dear, what are you smoking? ;)  To counter the anarchy dream and the chaos it creates will take hi-jacking this blog even more than we already have.  But, perhaps write a blog on anarchy as a viable system to replace capitalism and I will engage.  You can have both systems at the same time, by the way, simply remove the law, we are half way there already in SA...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Aragorn23 &#8211; Oh dear, what are you smoking? <img src='http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />   To counter the anarchy dream and the chaos it creates will take hi-jacking this blog even more than we already have.  But, perhaps write a blog on anarchy as a viable system to replace capitalism and I will engage.  You can have both systems at the same time, by the way, simply remove the law, we are half way there already in SA&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Aragorn23</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jenniferthorpe/2010/03/29/kicking-out-the-homeless-and-other-house-cleaning-activities/comment-page-1/#comment-117838</link>
		<dc:creator>Aragorn23</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Apr 2010 12:33:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jenniferthorpe/2010/03/29/kicking-out-the-homeless-and-other-house-cleaning-activities/#comment-117838</guid>
		<description>@X Cepting: To clarify, I meant this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@X Cepting: To clarify, I meant this: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism</a></p>
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		<title>By: X Cepting</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jenniferthorpe/2010/03/29/kicking-out-the-homeless-and-other-house-cleaning-activities/comment-page-1/#comment-117830</link>
		<dc:creator>X Cepting</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Apr 2010 11:00:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jenniferthorpe/2010/03/29/kicking-out-the-homeless-and-other-house-cleaning-activities/#comment-117830</guid>
		<description>Cont&#039;d  - It is a matter of choosing between your affordable laptop made in a sweat shop or the sweat shop slave.  Handing out charity is counter-productive.  Newton&#039;s third law proves my point.  Every aditional charity organisation will create additional charity takers.

Fight for equal education, that is where it all starts... and stays.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cont&#8217;d  &#8211; It is a matter of choosing between your affordable laptop made in a sweat shop or the sweat shop slave.  Handing out charity is counter-productive.  Newton&#8217;s third law proves my point.  Every aditional charity organisation will create additional charity takers.</p>
<p>Fight for equal education, that is where it all starts&#8230; and stays.</p>
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		<title>By: X Cepting</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jenniferthorpe/2010/03/29/kicking-out-the-homeless-and-other-house-cleaning-activities/comment-page-1/#comment-117829</link>
		<dc:creator>X Cepting</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Apr 2010 10:55:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jenniferthorpe/2010/03/29/kicking-out-the-homeless-and-other-house-cleaning-activities/#comment-117829</guid>
		<description>@Aragorn23 - Better than your first argument.

Yes, society is not perfect, far from it.  Yes, all of us created it.  

No, capitalism cannot be blamed, individual actions can (No-one says you have to buy from the big guy).  Fighting capitalism won&#039;t work.  To promote a (new) system that will work instead might, IF it works. 

Egalitarian?  Sure, if we can agree on the meaning of the word first (there are two totally different definitions: equal opportunity and equal economic status).  It is human nature to compete and actually not in the interest of the species not to do so.  I cannot agree with a lazy person sharing the fruits of my hard work.  I would be willing to give him a helping hand to help himself, on the condition he does the same for another.  Don&#039;t blame successful people for the lack of success of another, it just gives the unsuccessful another excuse to continue.   

Exploitation happens all the time, yes, and can only be fought by educating the exploited against it. &quot;Don&#039;t accept that gift, it always has a price tag&quot;. 

Fight hyper-individualism?  Sorry pal, I actively promote it.  There is so little of it left, all I see around me are advertising clones with no individuality. 

Greed - Agreed.  It is a disease brought on by fear of lack.

Statism -  Meaning a stagnant status quo?  Afraid it will stay that way until someone beat them and become top dog.

Cities create poverty and technological innovation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Aragorn23 &#8211; Better than your first argument.</p>
<p>Yes, society is not perfect, far from it.  Yes, all of us created it.  </p>
<p>No, capitalism cannot be blamed, individual actions can (No-one says you have to buy from the big guy).  Fighting capitalism won&#8217;t work.  To promote a (new) system that will work instead might, IF it works. </p>
<p>Egalitarian?  Sure, if we can agree on the meaning of the word first (there are two totally different definitions: equal opportunity and equal economic status).  It is human nature to compete and actually not in the interest of the species not to do so.  I cannot agree with a lazy person sharing the fruits of my hard work.  I would be willing to give him a helping hand to help himself, on the condition he does the same for another.  Don&#8217;t blame successful people for the lack of success of another, it just gives the unsuccessful another excuse to continue.   </p>
<p>Exploitation happens all the time, yes, and can only be fought by educating the exploited against it. &#8220;Don&#8217;t accept that gift, it always has a price tag&#8221;. </p>
<p>Fight hyper-individualism?  Sorry pal, I actively promote it.  There is so little of it left, all I see around me are advertising clones with no individuality. </p>
<p>Greed &#8211; Agreed.  It is a disease brought on by fear of lack.</p>
<p>Statism &#8211;  Meaning a stagnant status quo?  Afraid it will stay that way until someone beat them and become top dog.</p>
<p>Cities create poverty and technological innovation.</p>
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		<title>By: Mad McMax</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jenniferthorpe/2010/03/29/kicking-out-the-homeless-and-other-house-cleaning-activities/comment-page-1/#comment-117796</link>
		<dc:creator>Mad McMax</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Apr 2010 07:50:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jenniferthorpe/2010/03/29/kicking-out-the-homeless-and-other-house-cleaning-activities/#comment-117796</guid>
		<description>Vagrants and beggars are themselves exploited.  I don&#039;t know if it still happens, but I have seen a bakkie with six or seven kids in it pull into the parking underneath Checkers in Umhlanga.  The kids take off their presentable clothes and dress themselves in rags.  

They then wander about the centre of town and hang around at robots begging.  I presume like car guards, they pay the bakkie driver a fee for delivery to and from their pitch.  There are even tales of women renting out their kids to beggars, and most horribly, disfiguring their children to increase the sympathy take.

@Panchetta:  I spent some time as a part-timer with the Umhlanga Protection Services in the 90&#039;s before they were assimilated into the Durban Metro cops.

The Umhlanga Town Council didn&#039;t want the Xmas holidaymakers pestered and quietly issued an informal instruction to the head of the UPS each year.

At the beginning of December we would round up all the street kids, vagrants, beggars, dronkies, people we knew were pickpockets and petty criminals.  They were put in police transport waggons, driven up to near Pongola, almost into Swaziland and left there. We estimated that they would take at least a month to walk back, and hopefully would get stuck in Richards Bay or Ballito on the way.  

It&#039;s nothing new, and it happens in all towns.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Vagrants and beggars are themselves exploited.  I don&#8217;t know if it still happens, but I have seen a bakkie with six or seven kids in it pull into the parking underneath Checkers in Umhlanga.  The kids take off their presentable clothes and dress themselves in rags.  </p>
<p>They then wander about the centre of town and hang around at robots begging.  I presume like car guards, they pay the bakkie driver a fee for delivery to and from their pitch.  There are even tales of women renting out their kids to beggars, and most horribly, disfiguring their children to increase the sympathy take.</p>
<p>@Panchetta:  I spent some time as a part-timer with the Umhlanga Protection Services in the 90&#8242;s before they were assimilated into the Durban Metro cops.</p>
<p>The Umhlanga Town Council didn&#8217;t want the Xmas holidaymakers pestered and quietly issued an informal instruction to the head of the UPS each year.</p>
<p>At the beginning of December we would round up all the street kids, vagrants, beggars, dronkies, people we knew were pickpockets and petty criminals.  They were put in police transport waggons, driven up to near Pongola, almost into Swaziland and left there. We estimated that they would take at least a month to walk back, and hopefully would get stuck in Richards Bay or Ballito on the way.  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s nothing new, and it happens in all towns.</p>
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		<title>By: Aragorn23</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jenniferthorpe/2010/03/29/kicking-out-the-homeless-and-other-house-cleaning-activities/comment-page-1/#comment-117757</link>
		<dc:creator>Aragorn23</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Apr 2010 05:55:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jenniferthorpe/2010/03/29/kicking-out-the-homeless-and-other-house-cleaning-activities/#comment-117757</guid>
		<description>@X Cepting: To clarify, I think the problem is a lot more fundamental than whether or not we can integrate the poor into our society by allowing them to make token contributions; rather, I think it is society itself that creates the conditions of poverty and that we must thus start developing entirely different approaches if we are interested in a society that fosters positive social values of solidarity, egalitarianism, mutual aid, etc., as opposed to selfishness, materialism, hyper-individualism and rampant, mindless greed.

More simply put, the best thing you can do for &#039;the poor&#039; is to challenge capitalism and statism, which are the root cause of poverty in the first place.

&quot;The assumption that what currently exists must necessarily exist is the acid that corrodes all visionary thinking.&quot; - Murray Bookchin</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@X Cepting: To clarify, I think the problem is a lot more fundamental than whether or not we can integrate the poor into our society by allowing them to make token contributions; rather, I think it is society itself that creates the conditions of poverty and that we must thus start developing entirely different approaches if we are interested in a society that fosters positive social values of solidarity, egalitarianism, mutual aid, etc., as opposed to selfishness, materialism, hyper-individualism and rampant, mindless greed.</p>
<p>More simply put, the best thing you can do for &#8216;the poor&#8217; is to challenge capitalism and statism, which are the root cause of poverty in the first place.</p>
<p>&#8220;The assumption that what currently exists must necessarily exist is the acid that corrodes all visionary thinking.&#8221; &#8211; Murray Bookchin</p>
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		<title>By: X Cepting</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jenniferthorpe/2010/03/29/kicking-out-the-homeless-and-other-house-cleaning-activities/comment-page-1/#comment-117683</link>
		<dc:creator>X Cepting</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Mar 2010 12:47:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jenniferthorpe/2010/03/29/kicking-out-the-homeless-and-other-house-cleaning-activities/#comment-117683</guid>
		<description>cont&#039;d: Anti-social behaviour robs those of us who do work hard to get along and make it work of our right to that society.  Soon enough, if something is not done about the situation, enough will be enough and people will move to where they can have that society.  Where will you find the tax money then to support these people?  Who will pay the rates to maintain the neighbourhood, now no longer pleasant to live in?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>cont&#8217;d: Anti-social behaviour robs those of us who do work hard to get along and make it work of our right to that society.  Soon enough, if something is not done about the situation, enough will be enough and people will move to where they can have that society.  Where will you find the tax money then to support these people?  Who will pay the rates to maintain the neighbourhood, now no longer pleasant to live in?</p>
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		<title>By: X Cepting</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jenniferthorpe/2010/03/29/kicking-out-the-homeless-and-other-house-cleaning-activities/comment-page-1/#comment-117681</link>
		<dc:creator>X Cepting</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Mar 2010 12:32:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jenniferthorpe/2010/03/29/kicking-out-the-homeless-and-other-house-cleaning-activities/#comment-117681</guid>
		<description>@Aragorn23 - Please do not emotionalise the whole issue, it does not help to sort out the problem of vagrancy.  Would you agree that people who are barely making ends meet themself working, paying bonds, rates and taxes should not really watch what they&#039;ve worked damned hard for be destroyed by people who do not contribute anything but foul language, despicable unsocial behaviour and the risk of spreading disease?  

The homeless, and everyone else for that matter, needs cheaper, quality education, job opportunities and confidence rebuilding, which I do spend my time and money on.  I support numerous trolley scrap collectors by sorting my rubbish for easy, clean pickup by them.  They don&#039;t earn much but it is a start and believe me, by the mutual respect that exist in that relationship, I know I am doing the right thing.  I am always fighting for micro businessmen and support them wherever I find them, as long as they abide by the law.  

What the homeless does not need is to have their dignity demolished by becoming perpetual charity takers.  The Constitution is big on dignity and respect.  Ever read it and thought what it really means? Ever been on the receiving end of charity?  

There are organisation that help these people to find themself again, like the numerous charity-funded shelters.  The destitute must want help first and YOU and other well meaning people are taking their will to help themself away from them by supporting them on the street.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Aragorn23 &#8211; Please do not emotionalise the whole issue, it does not help to sort out the problem of vagrancy.  Would you agree that people who are barely making ends meet themself working, paying bonds, rates and taxes should not really watch what they&#8217;ve worked damned hard for be destroyed by people who do not contribute anything but foul language, despicable unsocial behaviour and the risk of spreading disease?  </p>
<p>The homeless, and everyone else for that matter, needs cheaper, quality education, job opportunities and confidence rebuilding, which I do spend my time and money on.  I support numerous trolley scrap collectors by sorting my rubbish for easy, clean pickup by them.  They don&#8217;t earn much but it is a start and believe me, by the mutual respect that exist in that relationship, I know I am doing the right thing.  I am always fighting for micro businessmen and support them wherever I find them, as long as they abide by the law.  </p>
<p>What the homeless does not need is to have their dignity demolished by becoming perpetual charity takers.  The Constitution is big on dignity and respect.  Ever read it and thought what it really means? Ever been on the receiving end of charity?  </p>
<p>There are organisation that help these people to find themself again, like the numerous charity-funded shelters.  The destitute must want help first and YOU and other well meaning people are taking their will to help themself away from them by supporting them on the street.</p>
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		<title>By: Janelle</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jenniferthorpe/2010/03/29/kicking-out-the-homeless-and-other-house-cleaning-activities/comment-page-1/#comment-117671</link>
		<dc:creator>Janelle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:46:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jenniferthorpe/2010/03/29/kicking-out-the-homeless-and-other-house-cleaning-activities/#comment-117671</guid>
		<description>In my first year at Rhodes I did a journ internship at the Daily Mail, and my first story was on this topic - the &#039;cleansing&#039; of Durban, especially the beachfront area, over the Christmas holiday period when all the tourists invade the area.

I think this was more of a right of passage writing this story than any actual journalistic piece of writing. We found squat. Everyone we spoke to said it happened - &#039;just look around you&#039; - yet no one, not one person, had any facts. I won&#039;t say it doesn&#039;t happen, but how can this story not have one person knowing the facts? It&#039;s all a little dubious to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my first year at Rhodes I did a journ internship at the Daily Mail, and my first story was on this topic &#8211; the &#8216;cleansing&#8217; of Durban, especially the beachfront area, over the Christmas holiday period when all the tourists invade the area.</p>
<p>I think this was more of a right of passage writing this story than any actual journalistic piece of writing. We found squat. Everyone we spoke to said it happened &#8211; &#8216;just look around you&#8217; &#8211; yet no one, not one person, had any facts. I won&#8217;t say it doesn&#8217;t happen, but how can this story not have one person knowing the facts? It&#8217;s all a little dubious to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Aragorn23</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jenniferthorpe/2010/03/29/kicking-out-the-homeless-and-other-house-cleaning-activities/comment-page-1/#comment-117657</link>
		<dc:creator>Aragorn23</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:04:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/jenniferthorpe/2010/03/29/kicking-out-the-homeless-and-other-house-cleaning-activities/#comment-117657</guid>
		<description>@X Cepting: Yeah, because if the unemployed and homeless aren&#039;t paying their rates and taxes then they&#039;re not worth bothering with, right? I mean, let&#039;s not consider why they might be unable to....

@Rory Short: Ermm...That&#039;s an entirely myopic view of the situation; there are fundamental systemic problems that prevent a large number of people from growing up &#039;successfully&#039; (I&#039;d love to know what you mean by this) and that render an equally large number of people homeless, due to no fault of their own.

I&#039;m sure in your mind it&#039;s a simple matter of &#039;teh poor&#039; simply striving harder; that success in this matter is usually fuel for a Disney story should serve to indicate how rarely this (migration between classes) actually happens. I guess 99.99% of poor people just couldn&#039;t be bothered to &#039;lift themselves out of their current situation&#039;, eh?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@X Cepting: Yeah, because if the unemployed and homeless aren&#8217;t paying their rates and taxes then they&#8217;re not worth bothering with, right? I mean, let&#8217;s not consider why they might be unable to&#8230;.</p>
<p>@Rory Short: Ermm&#8230;That&#8217;s an entirely myopic view of the situation; there are fundamental systemic problems that prevent a large number of people from growing up &#8216;successfully&#8217; (I&#8217;d love to know what you mean by this) and that render an equally large number of people homeless, due to no fault of their own.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure in your mind it&#8217;s a simple matter of &#8216;teh poor&#8217; simply striving harder; that success in this matter is usually fuel for a Disney story should serve to indicate how rarely this (migration between classes) actually happens. I guess 99.99% of poor people just couldn&#8217;t be bothered to &#8216;lift themselves out of their current situation&#8217;, eh?</p>
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