I’ve made a mistake. How silly of me. Women’s abuse isn’t important. How naive of me — democracy is about equality, about sharing the rights granted in the Constitution. So of course women’s rights are no longer something to consider — I mean they’re already achieved in some pretty paper in some high office in Pretoria. What’s important now is men.
Do you know why women’s abuse isn’t important? Do you know why we should ignore startling statistics, women’s lived experiences, and the general situation of women in South Africa? Well, if you’re not sure, why not read a lovely blog that can help you to remember why! It’s because men are abused too. Shew — who knew?!?
If you can’t already hear it, I’ll tell you what to listen for. It is the long whipping sound of the backlash. Quaaaapissssssssssh. It’s a big old slap in the face to feminists and an attempt to tell them that their issues are no longer important, because men have them too. Oldest trick in the book, and one that we’re not going to fall for that easily.
Women are not weaker, more inferior or less powerful than men and are certainly no case for babying or patronising. Women are powerful incredible beings who carry the worlds on their shoulders and keep on going. This is exactly why feminism exists.
Talking about women in feminist terms is not an attempt to belittle them or present them as people who are unable to act on their own account. It is an attempt to encourage participation amongst all people to achieving lived equality of all groups.
If one group is held back by lived circumstances, so are all groups. Nobody thinks that a person who rips their ex off in a divorce is a shining example of what women should stand up to. Is it right to destroy a family — never. But just remember that the family destruction occurred before the divorce or there would not have been a cause for one. Furthermore, both parents/spouses are equally responsible for how they manage things afterwards — this is by no means a one-way street.
The backlash is not new. Yes, men in South Africa do suffer from abuse, particularly if they are poor. The bottom line is that I am a woman and my interests lie in achieving a lived condition for women that allows them to feel safe and to be safe. If men are worried about particular things, let them talk about them.
BUT, men’s issues are different from women’s issues. To say that they are the same is to completely ignore the specific position of women and is to reinforce their silence by leaving them with no place to speak, except from behind a man.
This is why I talk about women’s issues, and if you’re not man enough to deal with that then you need to ask yourself why.
Someone hand me a bag of popcorn. I do enjoy a good scuffle.
Hi Jennifer, you have interpreted my “lovely blog” as an example of this backlash. The blog was about getting us to move forward, find bridges, solutions. I do not wish it to be simply interpreted as a backlash. By purely interpreting my blog as a “backlash” (correct me if I am wrong) then the feminist issues, my implicit call for reconciliation and acknowledgement of abuse of both genders reaches a stalemate. I think that is irresponsible of you. Sure you will have many women going hoorah and yippee about your blog and down with Rod… but have we achieved anything worthwhile? No, no, no. More division, less bridges, less understanding.
I love sarcasm but in the context of your sarcastic remarks I don’t know where to take you seriously or how to actually read you: “Well, if you’re not sure, why not read a lovely blog that can help you to remember why! It’s because men are abused too. Shew — who knew?!?” Very sad, this sarcasm risking being childish and contradicting the statement in your profile, that you are “always keen for a good constructive argument”. I emphasise the word constructive.
I stand by my “lovely blog” and am not interested in a “scuffle” as one commentator above has already said. Peace sister, and go well. Good luck with writing that book.
“The bottom line is that I am a woman and my interests lie in achieving a lived condition for women”
Ah, altruism.
Say what?
“The bottom line is that I am a woman and my interests lie in achieving a lived condition for women that allows them to feel safe and to be safe. If men are worried about particular things, let them talk about them.”
… and then lay into them with a sideways arguement that doesn’t address one of the points raised…. Most men support and cherish the women in their life. We appreciate them at work and cut them great slack which is appreciated. They accept they cannot lead (and hence earn) in the proportion that they work for us, because work is often second priority and the reality is that we cannot have leaders that put the business second. They know that and expect their husbands to be the secure and main bread-winner as his role!!!! They equally resent undeserving woman getting breaks because of some false premise quota.
Writing is a luxury career that allows a high level of flexibility – jobs like construction, engineering, medicine, teaching, accounting, farming, require being on call and in place. I repeat my point, …. fight the woman issue fight where it is needed – amongst the poor and down-trodden, not to gain unfair discrimination points where you have loads of power and don’t need AA help ie, in the spoilt rich-club.
Sipho Hlongwane would you say that if it was your wife, daughter, mother raped? What country do you condone where there is a (reported) rape/attack every few minutes. Jennifer is obviously someone who works/interacts with women who have experienced violence so at least show some respect and do away with shallow ‘bumber sticker’ trite comments. At least show some inner depth and wise throught with your comments or better go to a shelter one day and see for yourself what your fellow SA men are doing daily, hourly every minute to their fellow country women.
Not a currently SA proud man.
Brent
I think feminism is difficult for men to understand. Think about it. You’ve been top dog, Alpha male for…what…most of the past 25,000 years? All the honchos in the world look like you. Hell, even ‘God’ looks like you. And you have ‘His’ words to prove it!
On the other hand, ‘they’ look like what you have learned by watching ‘your’ side express contempt for. The entire fabric of Judaeo-Christian society is a refutation of Goddess-worshipping and pantheistic antiquity. How to do you create a male-centred culture? You do the opposite of what a female-centred culture would do.
First you have demonize the Goddess so you reduce her to an afterthought, an appendage to your progenitor. But demonizing her could make her seem stronger so you have to compensate by making her the cause of your all troubles. Voilà! Lillith. Eve. Jezebel. Delilah. Pandora… Brilliant. You = good guy. She = scheming bitch. No contest, mate.
Besides, you’re bigger, physically stronger, you equate tools with weapons, so make her fear you and your male ‘Gpd’. Got it made now, man. Yeah. MAN.
He who holds the power rules the world. Females outnumber males. Oh. Ummm. Keep the females too busy to realise that they are a majority. Babies! Yeah. Lots of ‘em. And they need looking after 24/7! Great. She won’t have time or energy left to get into mischief. Meanwhile, because they ARE a majority you have choice of playmates…Paradise!
“BUT, men’s issues are different from women’s issues”
“Women are not weaker, more inferior or less powerful than men”
How do you reconcile woman having different issues than men but being no different from them? Therein lies my problem with feminists. I prefer to support the WLB (Woman’s Liberation Front) who are attempting, in their quiet unobtrusive way, to change the way woman perceive themself so that they may rise themself up to fully functioning person status. This requires getting a woman to see they are no different from men. Woman themselves are too blame for this perception. No-one is going to pull you up. Just like men, you will have to do the graft yourself. So you have babies and men don’t. Big deal. You need a man’s cooperation during this time, negotiate with the father, it is his kid too. Let him do the nappy changes and burping. To deny men the same rights woman claim is not going to help a whole lot to create equal rights for woman. If you slave for your husband, hey honey, that was your choice, he is not going to say no. Fight for people’s rights. Become equal in your perception of yourself and everyone else will treat you that way.
It is not right to disparage women’s issues on the grounds that men have issues too.
It is not right to disparage men’s issues on the grounds that women have issues too.
Let us rather consider and address all issues on their respective merits.
With you on that one Sipho. Somebody must have said something…
In terms of the write up, are men and women different, and by extentsion their problems? Certainly.
While a piece of me does get slighltly annoyed sometimes with feminist thinkers and feminist rhetoric, since it is often implied that if you aren’t with them, you are against them (ie: there is no middle ground – I am most likely wrong about this but still), feminism or feminisnistic points of view usually aren’t that far off the mark.
How we digest that perspective, and how that perspective is presented, is where the bones are rolled…
“Man enough” why do some women think that they know more about being a man than men? 2 wrongs does not make a right, just because our grandfathers abused our grandmothers, it doesn’t mean that we(men) have to get abused, to even the scores. Feminist must avoid going to far in their defence, otherwise the tables will be turned and men will start campaigns for men’s right. There’s only so much that we can take!!?
Paradise 2
it is very difficult for men to mentally put themselves in the position of women. This is where most male-female conflict occurs. To identify with someone–or a group–who have less of what you value (Power, money, freedom of movement, etc.) feels to the one with power like surrendering! Being defeated! LOSING the game!!! Anathema to males!! Everything inside men resists identifying with the less powerful. It’s feels demeaning. It feels…scary. Unless it offers the opportunity to be seen as a hero, of course. But that’s different. The Hero is still the powerful one.
Females, on the other hand, are taught from childhood to identify with the weaker or the more fragile, the smaller and more helpless, those in need. The ‘down side’ of this socialization is the tendency for females to forget who they are as individuals. Feminism is partly about bringing better balance to the lives of women by letting women and young girls know that they have a choice in life. They can choose to develop their gifts for other things apart from empathy. And in doing so they help other women to stand up for themselves and defy male authority where necessary in order to reclaim authority over their own lives.
Putting yourself in the place of the other is one of the basic concepts of human ethics. “Do unto others…’ is not Christian in origin. It is the basis of empathy and compassion. It is the beginning of civilization.
The same goes for the idea that ‘black people should stop blaming apartheid and get on with it’…see a victim should never be told how to respond to a slap on the face. One of the most degrading things wen I was young was being beaten and told to shut up and wipe the tears.
I just took a tour of Berlin and specifically the Wall and the street art in it. I realised that black south Africa must be allowed to make what they want of their experience of apartheid and those who don’t give a damn about black experience must learn to swallow it.
I like how you write passionately about ‘womens rights’ becasue in the final they are really humans right, unless of course we accord women a lesser human status…however I am a believer in individual rights my self….
Nice one, Jen.
While I’m not going to venture an opinion on Rod’s piece, you’re spot on as a whole.
I had to sit through a lecture last night with an ‘academic’ who regularly spends time laughing off the abuse of women because ‘women abuse men now’…He thinks it’s really funny – I feel sick.
But how do we move beyond crying backlash and actually work out how we combat this trend?
Rod, Jennifers point is that equating men’s abuse by women with women’s abuse by men is equivalent to equating murder with petty shoplifting.
Brent
As Rod was trying to argue: “Abuse happens on both sides of the gender lines”.
Men and women are largely different species in the animal kingdom. Mankind the world over has acknowledged this in such basics as male/female toilets, male/female sports events and many other culture or religion specific phenomena.
Abuse?….has been with us and will be with us for centuries to come.
Do we like it? NO!
Can we stop it? NO!
We see the female conniving way in our daily soapies, we see the male brutal way in our daily news on wars and other violent scenes. We watch male and female violent behaviour during strikes.
Abuse is part of life. In nature the strong simply kills and eats the weak. We are too civilised to do this. We just tease or hammer each other into a violent response.
Jennifer, you had 250 words to comment on Rod’s blog; under his blog. Just because you are assured an extra platform that the rest of us are not offered, doesn’t mean you need to abuse it.
Issues about women concern all women and many men. Grow up!
The problem with activists and writers is that they assume that a few badly chosen words say everything. They don’t!
If you have a beef with Rod, invest in Skype and get it off your chest that way. Your very public little hissy fit did nothing for women’s rights. It just reminded us all that some women walk right into it and don’t expect men to retaliate!
Just like you, I often overstep the mark. That’s what women with opinions do. But in this case, you’d do far more for women if you behaved with a little dignity…
I doubt that these feminist man-haters accurately reflect the feelings of women in general. It is the tiny fraction of women that don’t like men or who cannot find a man who tends to complain most about abuse and being downtrodden. Most women are actually more fair minded and perfectly happy to fulfill their roles as mothers, lovers and partners.
@ Xcepting “If you slave for your husband, hey honey, that was your choice, he is not going to say no”.
Thank you, X. That is exactly the core of the problem. Men typically reward the caring and generosity of women by exploiting them. The male assumption is that if a woman is naive or stupid enough or has so little self-esteem that she will ‘slave’ for her husband, she deserves to remain a slave. And the man is happy to be served by his slave. But, if that slave comes to realize she is contributing to her own exploitation and starts withdrawing her services as maid, cook, mender, laundress, etc. the man who has been eXploiting her feels somehow that HIS rights are being violated!!!! The woman is not playing by the rules! Once a slave she must remain a slave! No changing horses in mid-stream!
Why is it that men feel entitled to enslave others and feel a sense of glee when they get away with it and a sense of betrayal when the slave rebels? Men were never entitled to the services of women to begin with so nothing is being taken away from them when the woman stops being the slave.
In fact, the liberated former slave is doing the man an enormous favour, He can now learn to look after himself and acquire the life skills that every human should have. It’s called Equality, guys. Get with the programme.
It’s all because of the act of sex. In general, a woman HAS to be submissive or the act is classed as rape. Because she is submissive, then he thinks he is dominant. And neither are actually true. ‘Into’ is the common view of sex; ‘onto’ is a very rare view. I contend that these views dictate, or at least influence, our subsequent thoughts on the equality, or lack of it, between the sexes.
That doesnt mean that it doesnt happen? You also probably find that men dont whinge about their abuse as much as woman…
Feminist thought is one thing. But feminism carries the dangers of an -ism, becoming a cousin to specie-ism and racism. By painting each sex with a sweeping and separatist brush, it clouds great achievements by women – and belittles and estranges all men in the process. I for one (male) a) did not select my gender and b) do not comport myself like a comic-strip caveman. I feel that a far more nuanced look at men is required – no scratch that – a look at all people to try and find out why some individuals are brutal, discriminatory, angry, defensive.. etc. Surely few humans, women included, are “powerful incredible beings”.
@Jennifer
So let me get this right, you want to be treated as equals to men but when the poo hits the fan you want “special” attention/help/awareness/whatever. Best-of-both worlds kind of thing. Don’t get me wrong I don’t think that men are abused nearly as much as woman or even to the same degree, but quite frankly why go on only about the rights of one group of people when you can do the same for another. Don’t all people have the same rights. This “I’m only in it for me” attitude is quite offensive. I put people like you in the same category as racists, the ignorant/arrogant/coward/moron category. Yes, you are a woman but you are also human just like the rest of us. You want equality, then fight for all people, equally. Change from woman’s rights to human rights, please then you’ll have my support. Until then excuse me while I role my eyes. Peace
@Graham: there are more roles than submissive and aggression in sex. If those are the only roles that you know then you probably are confused about rape. Your view is really really dangerous. What’s more, equality of the sexes is not only about sex!
Xcepting, if you can’t understand why childbirth is something that is women-centric and does not make you weaker, i’m not sure how to explain. Anyone?
@Rod: Sounds good. Let’s let men talk more about men’s issues so helping people becomes less gendered and more human.
@Bill Rogers, great idea.
@Brent, something like that I think….
@Benzol – we can stop it. We need to act to stop it. We need to not be defeatist and start caring to stop it.
@MLH, thanks for your opinion. You’re entitled to it.
@Joseph, I’d ask the same of men. Why do they feel that they know what women’s issues are, and so nervous when women want to speak about them?
Wow! The indoctrination by the patriarchs still holds after 200 years! Male and female, two different species? Good grief! Men make war, woman connive! Yikes! The generalisations when it comes to the apparent differences between the sexes borders on urban legends and this, from so-called educated “thoughtleaders”. If I hear one more male saying that woman obviously should be paid less since their homes are their first priority, I will do something truly frightening to dispel the myth.
What generally holds have generally been taught and indoctrinated. What really irks me is that wherever woman have not believed this bumf and gone ahead with their ideals, it has worked just the same and sometimes even better as for males, depending on their individual talents of course.
I understand that a lot of men feel threatened by the concept of a woman who can do whatever they can do plus having the ability to procreate, it makes them feel redundant. I really think we need a Men’t Lib to deal with that restricting fear. That is the other side of why woman has been kept down (pun not intentional) and made to feel helpless. Any body and mind can do what it is taught to do within its individual limits.
@Rod of Sydney: “The accept they cannot lead” “They expect their husbands to be the breadwinner” – I hope there are grammatical errors in your sentence because otherwise you are completely in denial about women’s freedom.
What’s more, I’m not a writer. I’m a researcher who currently works for an NGO dealing with Rape Survivors. I work regular hours, and the counsellors who work here certainly do not have flexible hours.
As for the ‘spoilt rich club’, I’m afraid I never cracked that nod. Are you a member?
…A textured and really passionate memo…I at first wanted to be rather dismissive of what you wrote…after the first few lines i realised that your sincere pleas were uncanny echoes of my own frustrations as a black man in SA ‘s white world…a real epiphany… so expressive and your writing really struck a cord…I wish you achieve your world someday as I hope to achieve my SA that soo many Blacks struggled and bled for….
@MuAfrika – Individual Rights, exactly. Singling out a portion of humanity for special attention does rather imply they need the help more than the others. It does more harm than good.
Behind Rod’s humour and provocative style there is a hint of truth. The fact is women often manipulate men for selfish reasons. Excuse me if I’m wrong, but isn’t abuse and economic exploitation first cousins? How can you denigrate the value of what he said? What we need strive for a real relationships between men and women that based not so much on gain but real love and respect.
Why are women abused? It might have something to with the fact there is tendency to cast women in roles of absolute submission. Instead of being recognised as human they become objects upon which a man may vent his vile rage. This exists because as you rightly point there are major power imbalances between the sexes – economic and sexual. Why are men abused? Interestingly, it comes down to roles as in the case of abuse. The truth is that there are women out there that will manipulate a man for material reasons by exploiting the role that has been given to on him has primary provider. Unless, we start producing asexually that isn’t to change. It’s a fact!
While, we can’t get away from societal roles what we (men and women) as human beings must realise that we basically need the same thing – security, social recognition and self actualisation.
This is why more effort should be made in getting adolescents of both sexes talking before they grow up to be abusers, victims and opportunists.
@Brent – I’m sure you’ll get a big hug and kiss from all the femnists out there. But here’s the thing – an any argument must be judged on its merits.
My judgement is this. The only that only thing that Jennifer’s “quapisisssssshing” actually achived was hammering into our heads why women’s rights are important and then she went unto ramble on about why women deserve special representation for their interests in reaction to as how she saw it Rod’s diminishing of the importance of women’s rights.
If you read Rod’s article closely you’ll see he never did that. Instead he was highlighting another aspect of society’s dysfunction with regards to relationships between men and women.
Oh by the way, you’re comment “Rod, Jennifers point is that equating men’s abuse by women with women’s abuse by men is equivalent to equating murder with petty shoplifting” is plenty sensational but doesn’t hold its weight in a bar. Why? Becuase they’re both sides of the same problem -dsyfunctional relations between men and women. You have to takle small problems before they become big problems. Ever heard of broken window theory?
Do you wonder why so many of the so called benefits etc of this new, or reasonably new “democracy” are just a lot of hot air? Do you wonder at the alarming lack of true justice that is named justice? Do you wonder at the erosion of the rights of the masses, where these rights are simply secure living for all, where law and order exists? Do you ever look back in history?
No need to look too far back. There you will see how the so called fighters fought their fight. Did they “fight” using fair means or foul? Did they show respect for life? People sow and reap. The majority voted (sowed) for these so called fair fighters, who were lauded as heroes. The present mess is the harvest of the seeds that were sown. Simple as that.
The saddest thing is that those who voted using their own rational reasoning and good discernment (in other words those who sowed good seeds) are now forced to eat the crop that is now harvested according to the seeds sown by the vast majority who were conned into believing that the new political elite really had their (the masses) best interests at heart.
Simple as that. We sow and reap. Plant an apple seed. Plant enough of them. Now apples become the staple diet for all, whether they like apples or not. Sad but true.
Women have suffered the abuse of men, being treated as their chattels, for over 2000 years. They have been regarded as the spoils of war; as such, their rape is a show of dominance over rivals.
Now a new way needs to be learnt by both sides, because, like apartheid, patriarchy has damaged both sides. I refer you to the recent survey of womoen in the UK on rape to validate this observation.
In reply to most people here, if you haven’t experienced abuse, you have no idea of the pain and the sheer disempowerment. I have been there and I know
Abuse is one thing which should be opposed by both men and women, as it is a harmful and hurtful, sometimes criminal attack by one upon another.
This is easily confused with our differences and different roles between men and women, as is evident from the above debate.
Women only need understanding. I learned long ago that any marital disagreement can be resolved instantly with the following words: “Honey, I understand what you are saying to me and I undertand what is making you unhappy. You think that…” Then we have monkeysex the likes that Lennit Max has been missing out from for the past fifteen years.
Peace sisters.
So much inter-gender anger here, including the author of this blog. I don’t think this particular Thought Leader contribution had generated anything positive, just more anger and alienation between genders. Jennifer: You think men should campaign for their own issues? Does that mean we should not have to worry about campaigning for women’s issues?
@Judith – I also know the disempowering effect of abuse. The worst kind is the kind that does not leave marks, i.e. emotional abuse. There is no evidence, so the abuser gets away with it for longer since no-one believes you. The only way to stop this is if one can get the majority of people (not just woman) to learn how to defend themselves successfully against such abuse. Oerhaps teach self defense as a school subject? Unfortunately, it is just not human nature to respect the weak. Something to do with the survival instinct.
“Xcepting, if you can’t understand why childbirth is something that is women-centric and does not make you weaker, i’m not sure how to explain. Anyone?”
Afraid I don’t quite understand what gave you that idea. The fact that childbirth is woman centric and therefore excludes men and that women’s bodies are made to cope with childbirth so it shouldn’t be disempowering was my whole point? Pregnant women do not have to be wrapped in cottonwool in fact that has the effect of disempowering them.
@Andrew: Of course men and women are welcome to show concern for the issues of each. The difficulty comes when you assimilate their issues.
Its the same difficulty that white liberals had in apartheid. No matter how nice they were, they weren’t black, so coming from a completely different subjectivity makes it difficult to completely understand the needs of a group.
Guys, she’s 24. Cut her a break. Can’t you remember when you were 24 and had all the solutions to everything in the world?
As a friend of mine says, “There is no one on earth who knows more, and with more certainty and self-righteousness and all the wisdom and life experience that comes with having been a student one’s whole life, than people in their mid-20s.”
There is one place where I am uncomfortable with Jennifer’s somewhat broad-brush approach and where, frankly, I feel that there’s too much of Rod’s trademark humour in his piece to get this message across.
Feminism is a necessity. Some form of feminism. In an Western context where by and large, yes, women have more freedom to choose their roles then feminism has to mature into a more nuanced people-centric approach rather than a women-centric approach. However, in SA by and large there is a significant disparity in relations between the genders of a scale that requires more intervention – and this predominantly aimed towards women and girls themselves.
However, much as with the race debate, what feminism misses is that significant minority of men who are actually abused – physically, psychologically or otherwise – by women (or other men) in a domestic arrangement. The relentless focus on man-as-abuser completely cuts these men off from any societal support.
@Jennifer: “Its the same difficulty that white liberals had in apartheid. No matter how nice they were, they weren’t black, so coming from a completely different subjectivity makes it difficult to completely understand the needs of a group.”
Hellooo Jennifer..! In the case of your analogy, the white liberals were doing as much as they could to empathise and understand. It was hardly possible to go further.. ie to change colour. Is it not therefore that the ‘difficulty’ comes from the perception that this was somehow insufficient?
What an (even more) uncaring, self-centred, and divided world we would have if it were so. And think how much you would be unqualified to write about.
Even more commendable than attempting to put oneself in the shoes of the other, is the art of appreciating and encouraging this generosity from others toward you.
@hds, being condescending is always an excellent retort. I’m not 24. But thanks.
@Kit, have a look at Mosaic project. They do some really great work with men too. Feminism does do stuff for men, because if it doesn’t it just puts a plaster over a gaping wound.
Sorry, are you 25 now? Your profile said 24.
Point still stands: you have spent your life as a student, and some life experience will stand you in good stead. It’s not said harshly, it’s actually encouraging. I wrote about race issues in deep East Texas when I was 23. Some of what I wrote was right on; some I cringe at. As one resident said, “So a 23-year-old Ivy Leaguer is going to tell us about ourselves?” I told her I couldn’t help being either an Ivy Leaguer or 23, but at least I would grow out of the second. Mercifully, I did.