In a recent post Bert Olivier referred to being called a “clown” for being critical of capitalism. As it goes I have been doing some research about commentators and contributors to Thought Leader. I am still collecting and analysing the data.
Of the thousands of entries I have in my spreadsheet, so far, the clearest indications (at this point) are that the highest percentage of all contributions (in terms of readers and commentators) are posts that are critical of the ANC, the government, Thabo Mbeki, Jacob Zuma, Robert Mugabe and black people in general. Michael Trapido ranks high in terms of popular contributors most weeks. I think my data is based on weekly updates, but I have difficulty finding data going backward — go figure. He seems to be followed (at least this week) by Sarah Britten and/or Sentletse Diakanyo.
The political/ideological biases are markedly to the right of, say, Helen Suzman during the 1980s. The politician most favourably considered by most commentators is Trevor Manuel; from what I have found, based on some applied principles of critical discourse analysis, is that because he is more “market-friendly” and speaks the language of “the market”, he is considered quite favourably. Without fail, Nelson Mandela seems to be everyone’s hero.
Some of the posts that have had among the highest hits have to do with emigration/white flight and so forth. Crime is also up there. It may come as no surprise to some people that Lyndall Beddy has made some of the most outrageous claims. In one post (perhaps not on Thought Leader) a writer explained about how impressed he was with Kader Asmal’s humility and decency, to which Beddy, quite ungraciously said: (I paraphrase) But he is in the ANC, he doesn’t care. Immediately after writing this I found the link to the Beddy comment, I left my own comment in to show whether I was wrong or right. Elsewhere, where people were discussing some issue, she simply said: “Why aren’t we criticising the government?”
I am still collecting the data. There are literally hundreds of topics. On any given day there may be up to 50 topics (at any time). For example, at 11.23am on October 7, there were 50 topics (posted as tags) listed as the Thought Leader “Zeitgeist”. These were
language
corruption
humour
democratic centralism
constitution
English
mulit-party
racism
scorpions
economist
culture
africans
cars
economy
asia
apartheid
Afrikaners
democracy
politicians
Arundhati Roy
organisation
corruption
military
Thabo Mbeki
South Africa
Africa
government
democratic governance
ANC
Luthuli House
artists
poverty
Jacob Zuma
imperialism
language
history
truth
images
Khalema Motlanthe
new plans
ideology
sa
crime
Mbeki
Wall Street
English
Sarah Palin
Shilowa
Julius Malewa
globalisation
These are, of course, based on “tagging”, which means it is quite arbitrary — as is clear. I have not altered them. I did this research for myself because I am seriously considering coming back to South Africa and wanted to get a feel for things. As it goes, I am in the midst of changing my plans to return home due to a lack of firm offers … That’s another issue.
The data collection will continue when I have more time, maybe in December.
What I have established, and will say for now is this: in terms of content, the Mail & Guardian is quite a distance more to the right on the political spectrum than the paper I worked on from 1985 to 1987. It is, nonetheless, still the best newspaper in South Africa. That, I admit, is my personal bias.
What Thought Leader reflects (not the newspaper) is that there has been a significant change in the readership; this is based only on the commentators. I must re-emphasise two points, in order not to confuse anyone.
1. In terms of content and based on my early analysis through a critical media/critical discourse analysis lens, the M&G is well to the right of the Weekly Mail.
2. Based only on Thought Leader commentaries (literally several hundred that I have collected over seven months), the readership appears to be more closely (but not entirely) allied with the Star or Business Day of the 1980s.
This brings me back to criticism of Bert Olivier. Having worked in South Africa as a journalist during the 1980s, rampant anti-communism and the dismissal of critics of capitalism was the mainstay of the Citizen, Star, Business Day and others.
Olivier should not be too concerned … he is in good company.
I don’t know about the paper, but I think the IT people behind the website need a few more hands on deck if the number of database errors I get every day are to be believed.
Any MySQL skills to offer?
I don’t think Thought leader readership necessarily reflects Mail and Guardian readership, because the internet is a free space that can attract right wing comments.
And I think that your constant mentioning of certain readers puts you in a bad light, it reduces you to pettiness. If a reader’s opinions annoy you, then ignore them or do not reply to them but stop writing about them in your posts. Are you not meant to be leading our thoughts, not holding grudges?
Ismail, I offer no opinion at this juncture. Just wanted to say it will be very interesting to read a sound qualitative analysis once you’ve gathered and arranged the data.
B
I accept your criticism. I do however feel that some people’s views may be taken as truth, and thereby be misleading. The person in question has made very many comments that are so profoundly mistaken that I have always felt compelled to remark upon them. I nonetheless accept your criticism.
Second point: I specifically re-emphasised that I looked at two DIFFERENT issues. M&G readership…. and Thought Leader. Again, I will accept as my own failing the misinterpretation, although nowhere do I say or even suggest, as you pointed out “Thought leader readership necessarily reflects Mail and Guardian readership”. Please do not misrepresent what I have said. And I apologise in advance if my pointing to this apparent misrepresentation offends you or puts me in a bad light….
Warren
I had to stop the data collection. Just incidentally, the topics based on “tags” amounts to (in the region of) 135 pages of 30 entries per page… As you can imagine, this is quite substantial. I simply don’t have the time. Hence, in my post, I made references to “at this point” and that the “project” was far from completion.
I may have to redefine the parameters and look at (for example) 10 top “tags” and/or 10 top contributors. Again, I am simply too busy.
Finally, for the sake of full disclosure – I swear blind loyalty to the Mail & Guardian. I have not been to their offices in about 15 years, and have exchanged about five email messages with people on the paper in the last 10 years, but the Weekly Mail meant a lot to me (I’m sure I speak for many people) …
Ismail
Ismail
I do understand your point of view but I guess I feel that an internet forum will attract the full range of opinions and they all can learned from. It is better to know that people are uninformed than to not know and assume all people think in an informed manner. Every opinion expressed here is informative as to the state of the nation.
And they have every right to voice their opinions, as bizarre and incorrect as they may or may not seem.
I for one read some of the comments about HIV and AIDS and was shocked at some of the replies. But this is how people in the country are thinking, this is what they believe, and scary as that is, we need to be aware of it.
it is disappointing to notice how a critical zulu thinker who is on the right track to unearth subliminal racism allows himself to get intimidated by a few rightists.
of course, the right-wingers know that you know that they know that you are right. rather than acknowledge the obvious, which is, that they are right-wingers, they hit you down before you even finish your research or thought processes.
i think you are on to something very big here, if you are not going to be intimidated. the web is the playground for right wing whites with heads in the clouds. they do not like it when you are critical of how they are stone walling transformation, progress and anti-racism.of course, their staple diet is anti-black government.
i think you should continue with this analysis. it holds the potential of making all of us know who we are and what we are dealing with.
look, feel free to come back home. after all, south africa is perhaps the only place in the world where blacks – who own nothing – can walk like they own the banks and corporations. they are simply, free at last, thank god, they are free!
there is not enough money in this whole wide world to buy this freedom.
Not sure why that list would suggest that Thought Leader contributors were of any political persuassion, unless of course it’s based on criticism of SA’s current climate.
In fact, the list somewhat replicates that of international concerns.
The allegation may however come from a streotypical left-wing response that anything that doesnt fall within their parameters is right (pun intended)
Might this not also have something to do with the anonymity of the internet, which tends to promote extremist views while squeezing out moderates? I base my observations of Thoughtleader as well as many years spent on the Mail & Guardian Forum (which has lurched to the right in recent years) and places of polite and reasoned discussion such as Friends of Jacob Zuma.
I have to say that in general (with obvious exceptions) I have been disappointed in the lack of thoughtfulness that characterises so much of the comments on TL. All too often there is a failure to engage with what has actually been written, and the same old glib resort to well-loved assumptions. I had a suspicion that writing about Australia would prompt the kind of we’re-not-interested-in-what-you-have-to-say or go-back-to-Europe pettiness, but nonetheless, it was disappointing to see so much of it. I expected more of the M&G readership.
Right isn’t always wrong, you know. Only lefties think it is. But then, lefties couldn’t see communism collapsing in 1989. Or the error of Mugabe’s ways.
In fact, the prisms through which lefties generally view the world are rather like those old fairground distorting mirrors.
Sorry to learn that any comment about bad leadership, poor governance, the wosrt police and metro service in the world, the lowest levels of education in the world, the highest murder and rape incidence in the world, the worst hospital and state organisation in Africa and a collapsing infrasrtucture are deemed to be from people on the “right”. Stay where you are sir, this place is not for sissies and bangbroekke. This place is for people who call a spade a spade and for people who are sick and tired of a political system that have failed everyone but the “select few”, but this is also changing quickly. If you decide to return, only come to make a positive contribution to effect change that will benefit everybody in this country, and not only a select few.
“I did this research for myself because I am seriously considering coming back to South Africa and wanted to get a feel for things.”
I am curious as to how the comments by isolated individuals on the web could be relevant to your decision to return to SA?
Lisa
Isolated comments by isolated individuals on the web bave nothing to do with it… If you read again, what i wrote, you may see that I said something like I did this research as part of my thinking about coming home. I am looking at several issues. Then, also, in my post I said (that’s ANOTHER) story… Please read it, again.
I also look at place to stay, transportation, jobs etc.. I also mentioned that I changed my mind because there were no firm offers.
Hein, maybe if you knew me you would think differently. Besides, the data I have and which reflected the information is still raw.
Thanks for all comments
Cheers
Ismail
I strongly agree with Sarah on this one. Moderates do tend to be, by and large, squeezed out to some extent probably because they get hit from both sides. Or just get bored. People are remarkably free to say some exceedingly scathing things online (particularly when behind a name which isn’t their own) which they probably rarely express in quite those terms in public. I’ve probably been guilty of it myself frequently.
One of the more interesting comments is the ‘liberals are the worst of everything and if it wasn’t for them, this country would work fine’. It doesn’t really help anything progress, notwithstanding the fact that these are merely tag-terms that just serve as an ‘I don’t have to listen to you’ dismissal. Few people self-define as ‘liberal’ in that sense. Implicitly included in that ‘liberal’ terminology is often the supposed ‘coconut’ (which term I’m even less comfortable with but I’ll throw it out there); even less clearly defined.
Two diversely antagonistic sides aren’t going to get along regardless of whether or not there’s anything in the middle but I suppose it’s probably nice to be able to point fingers at the enemy of your enemy and also find them to not be your friend…or something.
And I think your best bet is to chase up some of your friends in SA, take some leave at an opportune non-lecturing time and stay with them. Try and live as normal a life as possible and get around a lot. That way you’ll get a better feel for what’s really going on in the New! Improved! SA. There’s a lot of polarisation going on right now but there’s equally a lot of pulling together and trying to get things done, just doesn’t make the news.
Sarah Britten wrote:
“I have to say that in general (with obvious exceptions) I have been disappointed in the lack of thoughtfulness that characterises so much of the comments on TL. All too often there is a failure to engage with what has actually been written, and the same old glib resort to well-loved assumptions.”
Sarah, you took the words right out of my mouth.
When I first found TL I read the site daily and commented often but as time went by all I saw (with rare exceptions) were the same shallow comments that all too often sank into personal insults against anyone who disagreed with the writer’s narrow thinking. (I’m not saying my own comments were universally illuminating, intelligent and utterly devoid of the occasional personal rant but nevertheless.)I got bored with the same old name-calling, stopped commenting and often only read the blog posts and not the comments that followed.
I read Ismail’s post and honestly I could find nothing particularly controversial or offensive about it. I understand that his references to Lyndall Beddy might discomfort some people but from what I’ve read of her she seems more than capable of defending herself and indeed, seems to relish the attention. I don’t think he’s picking on a defenceless, voiceless person.
I remain a fan of TL but the romantic glow has faded.
“Might this not also have something to do with the anonymity of the internet, which tends to promote extremist views while squeezing out moderates?”
Moderates are no less capable of putting across their pov as those of left and right persuassions.
NB. Left is not moderate.
Dear Isi
I read your article very carefully, but am still wondering why the comments here are at all relevant to your decision to come home. How do they influence your thinking in this matter in the slightest and why? Skattie, don’t take the views of individuals here so seriously…
Ismail
I am flattered that you single me, and only me, out for comment – again!
What I said was actually a question, not a statement “Isn’t Asmal an ANC politician? Does he care? Do any of them really care?”. Things have happened since then.
You have done this before – used the Strawman logical fallacy – misquote me, or quote me out of context, and then shoot down your own false argument.
Please also let me know the blog on which my other comment was – probably just as misquoted.
Still smarting from last time are you?
Odette
Thanks – but next time could one of you just let me know he is attacking me again? I actually nearly did not read this – saw it for the first time today!
I also went through a time of disillusionment. However, in my opinion, extremism is decreasing and rationality increasing. We should ask Riaan Wolmerans. When TL started he was disturbed by the comments coming through, and wrote a post about it. Maybe he can tell us if things have improved?
Abie
Thanks for the explanation of the “strawman” logical fallacy. Most useful!
Ismail
Instead of attacking my comments – why not read my blog. Amagama is up again and I am on-line again.
I have written a post about tackling crime, and having the death penalty re-looked at.
That should give you something real to bitch about!
Ismail
interesting post, just seen it now.
1. TL may be a bit unique but ultimately it is an online community and although the contributors are remote, regular visitors get to know each other. its surely cannot therefore be used as a microcosm of SA.
2. not sure how the posts of the readers of TL are representative of the paper as a whole – to best of my knowledge the editorial team do not moderate the political leaning of the posts ?
3. to some extent the process of upholding the free press is to counter the majority / prevailing view. in the 80′s the prevailing view was right wing, now it is left wing. surely that would account for the shift in the M&G?
cheers
Very interesting, keep up the research.
Your data capture of topics hot at October 7 11.23 am on TL was fascinating…. it read like a beatnik poem!
You should call it “What Was Going through SA’s Collective Consciousness on October 7, 11.23″ and get it published in an alternative poetry magazine. : )
Tagging is not arbitrary enough, as I suspect the authors tag their own posts. If the tags were made by readers, as they are done with a framework like delicious,they would represent a real folksonomy and may benefit from collective intelligence.
In other words, making tagging more arbitrary would paradoxically make the tags more representative of their posts, and thus more useful for extracting data. This makes tagging a kind of direct democracy – and it works.
Folksonomy is just one practical example of why decentralisation is nearly always the better option.
Decentralisation is coincidentally one of the criteria for achieving an effective group and to avoid the groupthink that is widespread in both the lefty extremists (like most authors are on Thoughtleader) and the righty extremists (like most commentators are, mostly reformed liberals who’ve been mugged once too often).
The fact of the matter is that neither are custodians of the truth, and questioning motives is also a logical fallacy just like the strawman above.
An opinion isn’t more wrong merely because it results from right wing or left wing people.