Sentletse Diakanyo ended his post on patriotism with a reference to a football team. This gives me a useful way to submit a contribution on the topic.
I am not patriotic. This does not mean that I “hate South Africa”. Hell no. It simply means that I have beliefs and values that transcend national and/or territorial boundaries.
To illustrate the point, I want to start with a football analogy. I love football. I enjoy a fast-flowing, short-passing game that brings out the skills and talent of players who work as a group. I also like a clean game. If my team, Leeds United, do not satisfy these preferences, I am able to say they are crap. If individual players are cheats, or violent, or if the fans are racist — as Leeds fans have been known to be — I can say fuck’em and vow never to go to home games.
As a general rule, I am opposed to the commercialisation of sport, to wilful exploitation (as much as I am to narrow-mindedness and chauvinism) and especially to subordination to these processes. So, if Leeds United bring out a new team jersey every year just so they can make more money from sales of jerseys to working-class sports fans, I am offended. I can vow never to buy a new jersey just because it is current. I can, also, buy a fake jersey — if I chose to violate copyright laws. The point is this: I believe quite firmly that whatever loyalty I may have to Leeds United should not become chauvinistic — it should, especially, not be in violation of my beliefs and values.
Like most people, I have beliefs and values that I try to protect and promote whenever I can without being offensive or in violation of the beliefs and values of others. Among these are issues such as justice, equality, emancipation, pacifism and a commitment to uncovering patterns of dominance and oppression. Here I am cautious; for instance, a bigot or an anti-Semite might have a very firm belief that Jews and dark-skinned people are evil. This person might place significant value in the protection of his or her white heritage from being “diluted” by black or Jewish blood — and might be prepared to die for these beliefs. There are, thus, instances when the beliefs and values of others are themselves offensive. Without minimising the crude impact and destructiveness of racism, I don’t want to get sidetracked so I will set this issue aside.
The point is that my belief in justice is not restricted to South Africans; my belief in equality is not limited to a single community; the emancipation impulse that drives me as a person, as a scholar and a teacher, is vertical, horizontal and historical. For instance, women face oppressive conditions within families, in and across communities and under general social conditions that are as much historical as they are structural.
If, then, “my country” or the country I call home, through its domestic and foreign policies, through its actions or inaction reproduces injustice, violence and oppression against any other group of people for whatever reason, I am obliged to criticise “my country”. In fact, it would be disingenuous if I were to apply my values and principles only to a section of humanity simply because we happen to live in the same country, speak the same language or claim a common ancestor or religious belief. No single group of people, not even “my people” or the people of “my country”, are more human than others.
I started this post with a reference to football. This should not suggest that I do not take the issue seriously. To illustrate the seriousness with which I take the matter, I want to present a statement by retired Lieutenant General Roméo Dallaire, commander of the United Nations peacekeeping mission during the Rwandan genocide of 1993/94.
“In Rwanda, it was decided that we can handle one dead [Canadian] soldier for every 180 000 dead Rwandans … Are some people more human than others? … Our priority seems to be to preserve the lives of our soldiers, which appears to be more important than accomplishing the mission. The Belgians went into Rwanda for a week, lost 10 soldiers, and left. And 800 000 Rwandans died. The big discussion [in Belgium] was about the 10 who died, not the 800 000,” Dallaire said.
To be patriotic I may have to place a country - which in most cases was established through violence and bloodshed - before humanity. I may have to say that South Africans are more human than others. I cannot do that. I love South Africa. Indeed, there are places in Namaqualand, or the Karoo, where I want my ashes to be scattered. The space between Stellenbosch and Swellendam is probably the most beautiful part of the world. We gave the world Nelson Mandela, Albert Luthuli and Desmond Tutu, and the grace and wonder of Albertina Sisulu is our best kept secret. We should never have let Gandhi leave, but I accept that history needed him in India.
However, I have also seen the majesty of Glacier National Park on the border of Canada and the United States. I spent time in the Swiss Alps with Kate. I want to take Paris (the city, not the woman) home with me. The first time I saw the sun set over Gorée Island I cried; although I swear off any ethnic, national or religious identity, I felt a very strong affinity with Africa at that moment. I am convinced that the air in Madagascar is laced with the breath of angels. Sicily, ahhh Sicily; a produce market in Palermo was the last place I saw a tomato that was actually red. I have felt the might and thunder of Iguaçu Foz, experienced the (open-mouthed) wonder of Venezuela’s Angel Falls, I have felt the spray of the Augrabies, I have swam with dolphins and among coral reefs in Mexico — and I have sang You’ll Never Walk Alone at Anfield. (I have yet to sit/stand on the Kop, though.) I have held Martha, Simon’s daughter, in my arms.
The most at peace with the world I have been was in Iceland. The most happily anonymous I have felt was in Rio de Janeiro (Niterói, more correctly) and the most “at home” I have felt outside South Africa was in New Delhi, Kuala Lumpur (and in Rio). The most scared I have been of the police and the government has been in the United States (today) and in South Africa in the 1980s …
On each of these occasions I have felt a contradictory sense of belonging and detachment; I belonged where I was, but knew that after I left it would still be there. To be patriotic I would have to place “my country” or “my people” before everything and everyone else. I am not prepared to do that. However much we try to, no country can claim a monopoly on righteousness, no group of people claim that theirs is the only struggle for justice or self-determination — that they alone have suffered.
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56 Responses to “I am not patriotic: Forgedaboudit!”
Extremely good article! I am very concerned about the swear word used, though. If you start using a lower level of language, the precedent is set and you soon have newspaper of icky quality. Good content, bad language.
Ismail, a deeply touching and meaningful piece. Thank you for reminding us of our obligations to humanity rather than to our country, heritage, culture or religion.
[…] have just read a fantastic post on Thought Leader by Ismail Lagardien. He talks of allowing ones love for a brand, sport, team, country, person or anything to skew the […]
Having said what I said in my previous comment, could you pelase enlighten me and other commentators about your reasoning behind using that word in this public forum?
I will write something a more substantial reply to your comment at a later stage. I have just taken three days off to do some long-overdue housekeeping. (And, when I do nothing I feel responsible for everything)
Now I have to work on a syllabus for one of the courses I start teaching soon. In the meantime, accept my apologies for offending you with the expletive.
It is a global world - and the sooner we realise it the better. There are no “African Solutions” for “African Problems” just “World Solutions” for “World Problems”.
Even Ghandi could not stop the partition of India!
And if you want to taste tomatoes like they should taste - grow your own!
We’re not an ant colony. We are all individuals. That is both a source of strength and a source of weakness in us primates.
Being patriotic for the sake of being patriotic means you are reducing the individual to a role in the group. This is effective if the group is effective (like ant colonies tend to be), but then an effective group comprises of effective individuals who lead them to begin with, which means an effective group would greatly value individuality and diversity.
I’m no patriot either. Birds of a feather flock together. Patriotism implies window dressing certain birds to fit the bill (or the beak) by exempting them from criticism ‘for the greater good’. No thanks.
Everything was going fine until you came with the tomatoes.
I can take with a swear word - if it is “well enclosed” as it is the case - can stand with the Niteroi charm on a south african, and even with a sort of romantic idea of Iceland or canadian glaciar.
BUT, when a man is in love with a Scicilian red tomato…. sorry man, now you have disapointed me!!
ISMAIL, a critical observation of events in your country; of the behaviour of the government it is represented by; of your fellow countrymen and so on, is no indication of that you may in any way be devoid of some degree of patriotric streak in you. It is the love of your country that should inspire you to be critical of those things you find unacceptable; in the same manner that you would if you had a miscreant for a child.
However, where such criticism is intended to build the country, but to advance a particular aim of ridiculing it and damaging its reputation, we cannot say a person acting in such a manner is patriotic.
It is those who are patriotic who would want to see their country excel, however the odds may be against it. The patriotic will rally behind their country and cheer it to the end. That’s the same passion you will observe in a parent; who in spite of his/her child’s inadequacies or incompetence in whatever form of sport, will cheer and support the child no matter what.
Now ISMAEL, get rid of that Leeds jersey; and replace it with a local soccer jersey (and I will throw in a vuvuzela for you); and go out there and cheer your fellow countrymen in spite of the pathetic soccer they play.
Thank you, Ismail, for your beautifully written and well-argued defense of the right NOT to be ‘patriotic’. ‘Patriotism’ is always a form of emotional blackmail. it is identical to Nationalism and as such it is the ammunition that kills the young of all ‘nations’ before they understand the real agendas of their governments or understand how much of the world’s suffering is caused by ’special interests’ who have a stake in keeping the world unstable and keeping ‘patriotism’ going as a means to continuing war at any cost.
I would add that over-identification with any ‘hero’ or group–tribal, racial, religious, national, political, even familial–is not only dangerous in terms of short-circuiting the mature thinking process, it is evidence of psycho-pathology.
Over-identification with any individual, group or cause means that we are prepared to abandon our humanity and become machines, robots subject to the will of the entity with which we are inanely identifying.
You are spot on, Ismail, in your observation that all ‘nations’ were born or developed in violence. The idea of a perfect ‘Eden’ in the guise in any nation is absurd, juvenile, and deluded. All humans are capable of any action howsoever terrible just as all humans are capable of greatness. We are all capable of both by virtue of our consciousness.
As sentient beings we always have a choice to act in ways that respect all life as sacred or to reduce the universe to our local footie club, gang, family, religion, clan, tribe, language group, social group, job classification, profession, or any other category that limits the growth of consciousness, that keeps us selfish, unheeding of the suffering of others, dismissivve of the rights of others because they are not members of our ‘group’.
Right now, the country is in the grip of a crisis caused by a personal form of pathological patriotism: Hero-worship. Zuma-ism (of ANY ‘ISM’) is fanaticism, a form of pathology. Only innocent children, ignorant adults and un-thinking people of all ages are capable of ‘hero-worship’. Whether the current crop of Zuma-ists are sincere or just grabbing the spotlight is not the issue. Nothing justifies the threat of violence as a means to a political end in a democracy. The danger we face is the ignorance of the young and well-armed cadres; they obviously do not ‘get’ democracy and have no idea that their blind devotion to the cause of ’saving’ their leader is identical to the blind devotion of the most ardent supporters of Apartheid!
When we surrender our minds to our emotional and neurotic over-identification with a leader we are admitting that we are still mentally children and we are doing nothing more than throwing a tantrum to get our way. “Patriotism (and hero worship) is the last refuge of the scoundrel” who hides behind his party affiliation as justification for any outrage he commits. It is vital that we free ourselves of the need to be considered ‘patriotic’. If we do not grow out of our childishly blind loyalties to concepts of ‘nation’ and hero-worship, we will regress to the state of fascism that produced Apartheid. Is that what our ‘patriots’ want?
Well done old chap, well done. Excellent piece of writing. I do not necessarily agree with “the needing Gandhi” part. And I hate it when I’m being forced to see him as a saint in the South African context, when my reading of his collected works really suggests the contrary.
Prof soccer?
I honestly figured you as a hockey fanatic.
About vuvuzela? What exactly makes Vuvuzela noisy in a Rugby match, yet everybody wants to know where you got that “trumpet” in an MLS match e.g. the 5-0 Rapids drubbing of Galaxy? Is there something in the vuvuzela that says soccer/football only?
I would like to grow my own tomatoes, but live in quite a crummy flat. Last year I had a small vegetable and herb garden; basil grew wild, chillies were happy - ONE TOMATO! ONE! I kid you not. I even have a picture of it.
@hlakile..just grow up and don’t try to spoil a good article…hamba! Ismail, don’t waste your time on this character. Rather elaborate on the thought of the demand for unquestioned patriotism.
I have similar feelings when South Africans keep referring to “our beautiful country” as if there are no other places in the world of different but equally touching beauty. But then..they would not know if they have never experienced it. Can’t blame them. You (and I and many others) were just lucky.
I feel the same about humanity. Decades ago we had a strange fellow in Europe (then still divided in countries) who refused to apply for and carry a passport. He claimed to be a world citizen. Not remembering the details, I think he got away with it at several border posts. Today he would probably be thrown in jail as a potential terrorist. Then he was considered a bit of an odd ball character.
Lesson to be learned today: the poor people, fleeing their countries -for whatever reason- should be allowed to live wherever they want. the drama’s on the high seas between Cuba and the US, between North Africa and Spain or Italy should not be necessary. People would not take desperate steps if they could even grow one tomato per year on their own balcony.
Wow, come in the economists: “we would ruin the economy of these countries by letting in all these people”. My answer? They simply come to “alleviate poverty” and are willing to relocate for it. “Alleviating poverty” is one of the millennium development goals, remember? Patriotism? Globalisation has made it go out of the window. Human beings should be as free to move around as large corporations do.
I feel the expletives are fully justified in this powerful, extraordinarily elegant post by Lagardien: pessimism is the weak man’s way because it is fucking easy; optimism is far more demanding and it is glorious.
The contradiction in the partiot’s world view is clearly revealed in your comment.
On the one hand you say: “It is the love of your country that should inspire you to be critical of those things you find unacceptable”. On the other hand and by nature of their patriotism, patriots are compelled to “rally behind their country and cheer it to the end”. What to do?
I suppose a patriot may be critical but not too critical or too loud so as to give the impression that he is not cheering for his team? That is nothing but blindness. And that is exactly the blindness that Ismael, and others, is rejecting.
Your analogy to the love of a child is faulty. A child is just that - a child, a young person without the level of personality development that would make it accountable to the same harsh standards we hold to adults. A child clearly requires a sensitive, careful and generous hand in its formative years. The same cannot be said for career politicians. Politicians are not children. We do not love them. We do not need to raise them. We hold them to the utmost standards. Similarly you would not cheer your banker “to the end” if he were squandering your money.
One further point - who decides when criticism is not “intended to build the country, but to advance a particular aim of ridiculing it and damaging its reputation”? Even someone deciding when this point is reached is an undemocratic and dangerous thing. Criticism is a cornerstone of democracy and always has a place amongst world citizens.
@Benzol - With freedom of speech comes responsibility. Ismail Lagardien is a writer of note and I hope to see more of his quality work in future. Crude language is what you expect from less evolved individuals, regardless of the situation. I am sure many people are put off by words like those as there are many other more eloquent words to be used. Isn’t that the mastery of language? Isn’t that part of makes us more human, more intelligent?
I stand by my first comment. How many swear words do you find in the works of the Bard? If every other word we used were sh!t and fV
And I have to say I too found this piece really resonant (Ismail’s, not the tomatoes!). I’ve found the concept of patriotism to be very complex but yet strangely simple in SA. It seems to refer to allegiance to the representative thing or ideal that whomever you’re speaking to at that time holds dear.
I was a bit thrown at Sentletse’s original article because not knowing the exact date of his epic World Cup final seemed to mean I wasn’t patriotic. But then I figured he was probably right, I’m not. But I’ve heard that patriotism is the willingness to die for your country (which particular part, which ideal, depends on who you speak to), passion for your local football team … it’s just so peculiarly subjective.
One thing that does interest me very much is that someone else in my family (to whom I’ll freely admit some nuclear-family patriotism) is often lambasted because he frequently wears England football jerseys et al and freely admits that he has no passion for whether the Boks lose or win. Seriously, like absolutely scolded by all kinds of South Africans. Yet he’s English English. They’re all astounded that he’s been here a decade but is so shockingly ungrateful that he hasn’t switched allegiance and become ‘patriotic’ like them.
But he usually calmly asks them: if you were to move and stay in the UK and I told you that you could never wear a Springbok jersey again, never bother about Mrs Ball’s chutney (WHAT IS IT WITH THAT?) and not go wild for tickets when an SA band you didn’t even particularly like at home does a gig in your adopted homeland, what would you say to that? The answer always, without fail: oh yeah, I suppose…okay then.
But you have to tailor the question a bit depending on who you’re speaking to. Some people couldn’t give a damn about rugby, others about soccer, some about music, some about food…because patriotism is not clearly defined but subjective and somewhat fluffy.
“African solutions must be applied to African problems” In the same way I cannot come to your house when you have a problem and claim that I have a solution just because I stay in Gauteng and in South Africa.
Nonsense! African problems deserve African solutions- it is only fair.
LISA, there is no contradiction in what I said. Patriotism does not mean you should not be critical of your country; and being critical about your country does not mean you should not support your country in order that there can be advancement in all fronts. Of course, you must speak out against corrupt politicians and everything else that is wrong; but that must not blind you against everything else that is good in the country.
There are South Africans who seem to derive some pleasure in seeing things go wrong in the country; and it is these people I would find difficult to call patriotric. Nothing in their behaviour or conduct suggests that they have the interest of the country at heart. You will find many of these people in Perth and other sanctuaries of SA “refugees”. These are people who have an absurd need to justify their departure from this country; and some are miserable and remain behind.
The colour of red tomatoes
—————————–
Imagine what a “patriot” would/could do with tons of tomatoes.
“We must either survive together or die together.”
The determination of whether the critic’s motives are good or whether he is deriving pleasure in seeing things go wrong in his country, is not yours (or anyone’s) to make. And are irrelevant to the debate.
Don’t blame the messenger. Do not even ask whether he is located in Perth or elsewhere. Rather deal with the message.
I added this article to my comment,”the colour of red tomatoes”, you chose to delete it. I am resending it.
Valencia Spain’s Tomato Festival
Grab an Apron — You’re Gonna Need It!
By Gary Picariello, published Jan 11, 2007
————-
You would think that when it comes to tomatoes and tomato festivals, Italy — not Spain — would be the hands-down winner. But no, it’s Valencia, Spain that sits at the top of the list. Which is o-k — because Valencia’s annual Tomato Festival has less to do with eating and more to do with getting messy and having fun.
The Tomato Festival, referred to as La Tomatina– is held annually on the last Wednesday in August, generally between 11am and 1pm — in the small town of Bunol, Valencia, Spain. Thousands of visitors from all over the world annually come to Bunol participate in a pitched battle — unlike any you’ve ever seen — where locals and visitors alike take to the streets to pummel each other with nearly one hundred tons of tomatoes. La Tomatina, along with its tomato throwing, is a week long festival of music, food, drinking, and general partying and it all takes place in a backpaker’s paradise just 30 miles from Valencia.
The annual Tomato Festival has been making the town of Bunol famous since its inception back in 1944. The true origins of La Tomatina have probably been lost to history, although there are several versions of the festival’s humble beginning still circulating around. One rumour has it that a musician playing in the Bunol town square got hammered with tomatoes as a result of his poor and off-key playing on a guitar. The most-accepted version has it that the town square was overcrowded with young people who were enjoying the annual Gigantes y Cabezudos parade. The band leading the procession apparently was less then appreciated by the crowds and found itself on the receiving end of tomatoes and a lot of other produce as a result of its impromptu playing. And such is the stuff that legends (and traditions) are born of.
As the story goes, the following year on the same day of August, thousands of young people gathered on the town square and started another tomato toss, this time of which was stopped by the police. Despite the fact that the La Tomatina was strictly forbidden by the authorities, the Tomato Festival has occurred every year ever since.
I won’t answer such a bizarre and inconsequential question. It is an axiom, of course I am a human being who is also an African first. What importance or significance does your question have? In any case why is the order of whether a person is an African or human being have? When a child is born in Africa, that child is an African.
What are you trying to play at here? I still stand firm on the African problems deserving African solutions. Yes we (Africans, just like any other nationals) live in a global world however that does not translate into using unknown and unfamiliar solutions.
I cannot picture Germans, the British, Americans etcetera refuting their Americanism just for the sake of globalization. Therefore is it wise for Africa to shay away from its Africanism and independency? I think not, because our identity as Africans is different to the identity of other nationals.
I for example can be female (and a femanist) as part of my identity - which you can not be if you are male.
And Africa is a continent like America and Eurasia. It is NOT on a seperate planet in the universe. Give me one solution to ANY problem which is specifically African? Which would have to be acceptable to both the fundamentalist Muslim of the Sudan, and Bishop Tutu.
Xolani I amazed that you still bother replying to Lyndall’s question. I am amazed at the patience of millions of indigenous african people, displayed over centuries, in the face of such indifference and ignorance portrayed by people, who ask questions like that of Lyndall’s.
but it seems like that impatience is now finally starting to dry up and I am not the least surprised.
What informs the following: “Identity is complex, NOT simple.” Why is identity complex in Africa and must be accountable to Bishop Tutu, Muslims (amongst various factors and ideologies)? Please supply reasons, substantiation, support and evidence for such thinking.
Why should African identity be acceptable to certain groups, people, theories etcetera? The English do not ask –to the extent of interrogation- as to whether a specific English is acceptable in-term of Saint “who-ever’s” definition of an English person. Why should Africa then lodge full investigations as to who is African and who is not? The English, amongst various nations, do not do this why should we?
Let me clarify you as far as how Zulus define who is Zulu and who is not. If a person speaks, practices Zulu culture and his/her children emulate this, then they are considered Zulu. You will note that during King Shaka’s tenure as King he gave chieftancy to a number of Englishmen on the basis that they spoke IsiZulu, had Zulu wives and their children spoke and practiced Zulu customs.
Why should that no longer be the case in Africa? I will not get circularly stringed and be allowed to be confused just because you think identity should be accountable to certain bodies.
Going back to African solutions. For example a child’s roots and surname are unclear and the family wants to know to which surname the child belongs. The solution would be that the elders trace their calves or cows -expecting to deliver calves.
A calf or pregnant cow must have been named and given to the child as a birth right. And his/her umbilical cord must have been buried where the cow gave birth or where the pregnant cow is expected to give birth. Usually in the correct family’s kraal.
Besides African solutions are no longer that primitive as we now live in a globalized market world. For example, a grandmother can no longer sit her grandchildren around a fire and tell them stories BUT –in today’s world- she can read them Zulu stories at bed-time.
Leave identity for another day for today concentrate on the matter at hand and that is Afircan solutions. Ask me which solutions are most suited, their efficiency etc and leave identity alone.
Well tell me what Western culture is. As you say Africans are diverse however there are certain links and cultural similarities between regions, cultures etcetera.
Therefore the fact that Africans live in a familiar or recognisable geographical, cultural lifestyles makes it better for Africans to make decisions amongst themselves. Hence African problems deserving African solutions.
Lyndall, I cannot go to Alaska and proclaim to have a solution for them just on the basis that we all live in a globally intertwined market world. I mean so many things are just so different there. Firstly it is the geographical make up there.
Secondly, it is the manner, culture etc in which they live. It would really be naïve of me to propose a solution of some sort there.
In the same manner, the world cannot interfere in Africa on the sole basis of globalization.
Zulu is part of African culture and heritage so that is why I told you about it. Furthermore, just because you think that there is no such thing as African culture that doesn’t mean that there isn’t.
Differentiate between FACT and OPINION. Do not use your opinion as fact. Interestingly since you are so adamant about “There is no such thing as an African culture.” Story.
Have you conducted some research in this regard perhaps? Have you even been to other African countries to begin with. I bet you, that you do not even know Botswana. Our closest neighbour.
Have you even bothered to read about other African states? How can you then be so sure of yourself about Africa and its roots.
There is no such thing as European culture either. German culture and Greek culture and British culture and French culture are ALL different.
And Venda culture is different to Zulu and to Xhosa.
Sol Plaatjies wrote about this a lot - he wrote that it was the European colonisers of Southern Africa who tried to enforce a homogeneous “African” culture when there was no such thing. His best example was of one tribe which allowed cousins to marry, and another which put them to death for incest if they even had sex. How more different could the two tribes have been?
You are missing my point completely. Firstly, I did not refer to European culture I referred to Western culture, civilization etc
Therefore the notion that there is no such thing as European culture is perhaps understandable. But what you fail to understand is that there are similarities and consequent differences amongst Europeans that are well understood and well respected.
For example, eating by hand whether you are Greek, English or German is just a big NO, NO! In the same manner bringing already slaughtered meat for an African celebration or ceremony is a big NO, NO!
So it is inherently clear that there are certain beliefs, customs, geographical understandings that are almost universal in their practice amongst Africans. Therefore allowing Africans to come up with their own solutions to African problems just makes sense.
Considering the great areas of similarity that each African has with another. Our ancestors have forever had their own ways of settling conflict. Why should Africans now sing to a different tune?
And it can’t really be because of globalization. There are many other factors that run concurrently with globalization and one of those factors is that markets will retain their identity, language, cultural practice etcetera
Why should Africa lose its identity just because the rest of the world –and vice versa- wants to trade with it? I do not hear Europeans refusing to eat pumpkin just because of globalization? Why should Africa bend backwards when every one stands firm on their principles?
Why should Africa always be the one to sacrifice ALL the time? And has that helped us? I think not.
Your problem with African renaissance is that Mr. Mbeki is allegedly abusing it to suit his own aims in Zimbabwe. But that doe not equate to Africans repudiating their ancestral identity and that is the notion that African problems deserve African solutions.
Mr. Mbeki’s manipulation of this well known and well respected phenomenon amongst Africans cannot be seen as his invention. In the same manner that the law can be manipulated yet the Law still stands. And it does not mean that just because it can be manipulated, that it ceases to exist.
Phambili! with African solutions for African problems Phambili! Viva! African renaiisance Viva!
If –as you proclaim or presume, if you ask me- that there is no such thing as African culture. How do you explain the inherent cultural, customary and indigenous (amongst various significant elements) similarities and differences amongst African tribes?
Are you now going to say that such tribes do not exist in Africa?
You really are misunderstanding me. When you talk about “African” you mean South African Nguni. African is so much bigger than that!
You talk about “already slaughtered” meat being culturally wrong. In Rwanda, the Tutsis allow NO SLAUGHTER of cattle at all! They are only milked or bled (like the nomads of North Africa do with their cattle). They believe God gave them all the cattle in the world to look after.
In Central Africa is a tribe which will not wear clothes, because they regard clothes as unhealthy. I read about them in a book of memoirs by a journalist, and thought that the custom may have died out - but Tony Weaver in the Cape Times wrote about meeting them, still fully unclothed, on his travels a few weeks ago.
Oldfox has linked some fascinating articles on the Dogon - whose belief system is numerical and symbolic NOTHING like the Nguni belief system.
Lyndall, who on earth do you think you are telling me that: “African is so much bigger than that!” How arrogant, misdirect, imprudent, irresponsible and down right rude and insulting of you! How dare you!
Out of all the facts I gave you, you chose to solely isolate the slaughtering part. I wonder why this is? Moving forward, what about the hand eating?
You are most probably on the fence and undecided as to whether you are African or not. And you now want to confuse everybody. Well I am not going to fall for that. I know exactly where my blood belongs and that is in the ancestral land of my ancestors. And that my dear is right here in Africa! Particularly southern Africa and South Africa, finish and klaar!
You have once again failed to read my postings for what they are and not what you wish them to be. If you had dared to read them properly you would have noticed that I said; “So it is inherently clear that there are certain beliefs, customs, geographical understandings that are almost UNIVERSAL in their practice amongst Africans.”
So how does that translate to the Nguni tribe, huh!? Stop your nonsense man! For your own information even the Nguni’s do not practice similar beliefs, customs etc But it is because of these tribes’ general features of things they find appropriate and inappropriate that puts them under the same “Nguni” identity.
By the way, there is no such thing as Nguni culture. However owing to these similarities and differences amongst many African tribes one can but them under a single umbrella term and say that they represent African culture.
According to my knowledge culture is defined as: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/culture
Now consider African culture in the same manner you consider Greek –as outlined above- and English culture.
Now is it not true that the English, in their variations, are not the same? Some have inherent differences to some in the same manner the Greek and Romans are also different. But they all form part of “western culture” and westernization.
Consider how Roman and English Law run. However different they are but they have a lot of similarity that are well understood to both English and Roman courts.
The fact that both the English and Romans have courts with judges, magistrates etc makes them similar but not necessarily the same. In the same manner Africans are similar in terms of African culture yet different in their OWN tribal and individualised beliefs, customs etc
Lyndall:
Now that I have calmed down. Where are your FACTS?
In light of: “Oldfox has linked some fascinating articles on the Dogon - whose belief system is numerical and symbolic NOTHING like the Nguni belief system.”
Well share the links to these articles. However, how do they prove that there is no such thing as African culture- as you are persistently arguing?
By the way, the fact that the belief system is different proves my point exactly. Have you bothered looking at the other side of the coin? The SIMILARITIES, my dear. Why do you treat them as if they are mutually exclusive?
I have warned you before - I don’t link. It is no use writing to me on an old blogpost - I won’t find it. However, I have answered you on the taxi industry.
Let us turn this discussion around. You tell me - what is peculiarly “African” culture, which is NOT also peculiarly normal human nature.
And all the Nguni languages come from the same stem “Urbantu” rather like Italian comes from Latin. They were one language and one culture once.
There is no point on mentioning what another person said without referring to the original source. It just makes sense not to speak for a person who has already spoken for himself. Rather quote for me what he said.
On the “old blog” issue. Well the arguments are still very much relevant. And therefore it makes sense to respond as you did. Surprisingly you claim that you won’t find the post. Well you did now didn’t you?
I have explained numerously what culture, Greek and African culture is. It is your refusal to understand the information that leads you astray in believing that there is no such thing as African culture.
Interestingly, the Abantu that you referred to refers to people and not necessarily Ngunis. When did the Ngunis ever speak one language? Elaborate please because your claims look fabricated, imaginary and unreal.
What is it that you refute about African culture exactly? Why should western culture remain justified yet African culture be refuted in such a manner?
Please answer the question - what is African culture? This would have to be equally acceptable in Libya, Morocco, Ethiopia, South Africa, Kenya and Somalia.
And no-one knows how long ago the Nguni were one people because their history is oral and not written down. Linguists can work it out from the present languages.
To Lyndall:
Sowuyangifundekela ke manje Lyndall! As you correctly put it “There is no ONE African Culture!” as true as that may be.
Africans have similarities and differences of which link them to a particular way of living. As Africans in respective regions have inherent similarities and differences which they live and accustomed to. That is in essence what African culture is all about.
Leave me alone, OH! leave me alone Lyndall! You just want to believe whatever suits you. But African culture does exist my darling dearest. You should be more observant, hoe”r Lindie. . .
you are wasting your time… like many people, i too have decided that lyndall beddy is not worth any effort. besides the fact that her commentaries, invectives, statements and claims are almost always devoid of any factual or logical basis - she simply cannot accept that anyone might have an idea, or actual knowledge that might be important, reliable or of any substance. almost none of her factual comments are reliable or verifiable, and her comments on africans are, to say the least, deeply offensive.
perhaps, xolani, you too will now learn to simply ignore her (as most others do). if it were not so impolite i would call her a useless idiot and a self-righteous twit who believes her own knowledge to be superior - but for the sake of good behaviour i will say this: i now understand why so many people whom i respect, intellectually, politically and personally, ignore the drivel she dishes up as intelligent discourse.
i am basing these criticism on what she writes - not on her personally. i don’t know her personally, and don’t particularly care. in fact, i don’t read her commentaries, nor do i read those of the retinue of sycophants who come out in defence of her asininities.
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Ismail Lagardien is a displaced South African, a independent scholar and writer living in Minneapolis, Minnesota
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Extremely good article! I am very concerned about the swear word used, though. If you start using a lower level of language, the precedent is set and you soon have newspaper of icky quality. Good content, bad language.
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