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	<title>Comments on: We&#8217;ve strayed from the ideals of democracy</title>
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	<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/imraanbuccus/2009/06/03/we-have-strayed-from-the-ideals-of-democracy-2/</link>
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		<title>By: ThaboM</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/imraanbuccus/2009/06/03/we-have-strayed-from-the-ideals-of-democracy-2/comment-page-1/#comment-84977</link>
		<dc:creator>ThaboM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:19:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/imraanbuccus/2009/06/03/we-have-strayed-from-the-ideals-of-democracy-2/#comment-84977</guid>
		<description>@OneFlew 
I bow before your superior non-wisdom. I prefer to listen to sociologists, economists, political scientists and other commentators on what is happening in those countries and ours, including an ability to see both similarities and differences.
I am afraid that your opinions carry little weight with me, because they are extreme generalisations. Also, stating that Belarus is a nascent democracy, indicates limited reflective ability or knowledge. I suspect that the opinions you have expressed are a hobby-horse of yours. Enjoy them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@OneFlew<br />
I bow before your superior non-wisdom. I prefer to listen to sociologists, economists, political scientists and other commentators on what is happening in those countries and ours, including an ability to see both similarities and differences.<br />
I am afraid that your opinions carry little weight with me, because they are extreme generalisations. Also, stating that Belarus is a nascent democracy, indicates limited reflective ability or knowledge. I suspect that the opinions you have expressed are a hobby-horse of yours. Enjoy them.</p>
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		<title>By: OneFlew</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/imraanbuccus/2009/06/03/we-have-strayed-from-the-ideals-of-democracy-2/comment-page-1/#comment-84950</link>
		<dc:creator>OneFlew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:49:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/imraanbuccus/2009/06/03/we-have-strayed-from-the-ideals-of-democracy-2/#comment-84950</guid>
		<description>Indeed, much of the &quot;we are unique&quot; chorus is the spiritual successor of PW Botha&#039;s performance in the 1985 Ted Koppel interview.

It reaches you via Mbeki&#039;s &quot;I am an African&quot; speech, which segued into Aids denialism, blaming the CIA and the West for an alleged conspiracy, and finding common cause with Mugabe.

It is seen in common culture in the attacks on immigrants, the contempt variously displayed towards the US, the UK, Australia, Nigeria, India and its people and so on.

It is the same parochial cultural strain throughout.

The notion is that these (often perfidious and interfering) foreigners just don&#039;t begin to understand you and all your complexity. It is a profoundly wrong-headed world-view.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed, much of the &#8220;we are unique&#8221; chorus is the spiritual successor of PW Botha&#8217;s performance in the 1985 Ted Koppel interview.</p>
<p>It reaches you via Mbeki&#8217;s &#8220;I am an African&#8221; speech, which segued into Aids denialism, blaming the CIA and the West for an alleged conspiracy, and finding common cause with Mugabe.</p>
<p>It is seen in common culture in the attacks on immigrants, the contempt variously displayed towards the US, the UK, Australia, Nigeria, India and its people and so on.</p>
<p>It is the same parochial cultural strain throughout.</p>
<p>The notion is that these (often perfidious and interfering) foreigners just don&#8217;t begin to understand you and all your complexity. It is a profoundly wrong-headed world-view.</p>
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		<title>By: OneFlew</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/imraanbuccus/2009/06/03/we-have-strayed-from-the-ideals-of-democracy-2/comment-page-1/#comment-84913</link>
		<dc:creator>OneFlew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:45:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/imraanbuccus/2009/06/03/we-have-strayed-from-the-ideals-of-democracy-2/#comment-84913</guid>
		<description>No Thabo.

I have lived in SA, in old and new democracies. And I have worked in many of the countries mentioned. I am even a citizen of one.

The point is however a dead simple one and not aided in any way by a silly little wall-urinating contest.

The notion of SA exceptionalism is just a transparent  attempt (and incidentally also a very old school, apartheid-era ruse) at rationalising SA parochialism. SA is not unique. It is not exceptional. It was not uniquely scarred, dislocated or left behind. It is not uniquely impoverished or disabled. It is often, however, dangerously introspective, self-referential, smug and self-satisfied.

That understanding is where the liberating  insights and growth opportunities are, where the ability to break out of tired old holding patterns of thought is to be found. Not in the belief of your uniqueness, and not even in the belief that you may just possibly be able to learn little snippets from other countries on vanishingly small points of detail selected by yourself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No Thabo.</p>
<p>I have lived in SA, in old and new democracies. And I have worked in many of the countries mentioned. I am even a citizen of one.</p>
<p>The point is however a dead simple one and not aided in any way by a silly little wall-urinating contest.</p>
<p>The notion of SA exceptionalism is just a transparent  attempt (and incidentally also a very old school, apartheid-era ruse) at rationalising SA parochialism. SA is not unique. It is not exceptional. It was not uniquely scarred, dislocated or left behind. It is not uniquely impoverished or disabled. It is often, however, dangerously introspective, self-referential, smug and self-satisfied.</p>
<p>That understanding is where the liberating  insights and growth opportunities are, where the ability to break out of tired old holding patterns of thought is to be found. Not in the belief of your uniqueness, and not even in the belief that you may just possibly be able to learn little snippets from other countries on vanishingly small points of detail selected by yourself.</p>
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		<title>By: ThaboM</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/imraanbuccus/2009/06/03/we-have-strayed-from-the-ideals-of-democracy-2/comment-page-1/#comment-84742</link>
		<dc:creator>ThaboM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 11:10:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/imraanbuccus/2009/06/03/we-have-strayed-from-the-ideals-of-democracy-2/#comment-84742</guid>
		<description>@DaveHarris

I disagree with your comment on communism. It definitely was brutal and dehumanising. 
Apartheid was evil, but there is no need to try to position it as the greatest evil. There are and have been other evil regimes in the world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@DaveHarris</p>
<p>I disagree with your comment on communism. It definitely was brutal and dehumanising.<br />
Apartheid was evil, but there is no need to try to position it as the greatest evil. There are and have been other evil regimes in the world.</p>
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		<title>By: ThaboM</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/imraanbuccus/2009/06/03/we-have-strayed-from-the-ideals-of-democracy-2/comment-page-1/#comment-84740</link>
		<dc:creator>ThaboM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 11:07:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/imraanbuccus/2009/06/03/we-have-strayed-from-the-ideals-of-democracy-2/#comment-84740</guid>
		<description>Dear OneFlew
It is clear that your argument is baseless. You know less about the democracies that you mentioned than the 2 things I supposedly know.
Cross-country comparisons are always spurious because the person making the argument, chooses what to focus on and ignores the rest of the context. Your analyis is definitely spurious. 
It is basically personal opinion masked as intelligence and it fails miserably.
It also takes one element of the discourse in SOuth Africa and makes it the defining one.
South Africa has a unique combination of issues, elements of them can be found elsewhere and we can learn from other countries on those points.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear OneFlew<br />
It is clear that your argument is baseless. You know less about the democracies that you mentioned than the 2 things I supposedly know.<br />
Cross-country comparisons are always spurious because the person making the argument, chooses what to focus on and ignores the rest of the context. Your analyis is definitely spurious.<br />
It is basically personal opinion masked as intelligence and it fails miserably.<br />
It also takes one element of the discourse in SOuth Africa and makes it the defining one.<br />
South Africa has a unique combination of issues, elements of them can be found elsewhere and we can learn from other countries on those points.</p>
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		<title>By: OneFlew</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/imraanbuccus/2009/06/03/we-have-strayed-from-the-ideals-of-democracy-2/comment-page-1/#comment-84696</link>
		<dc:creator>OneFlew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:00:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/imraanbuccus/2009/06/03/we-have-strayed-from-the-ideals-of-democracy-2/#comment-84696</guid>
		<description>ThaboM and Dave, you make my point fairly eloquently.

South Africa is not so exceptional. And a spurious listing of the two things you think you know about each country I listed doesn&#039;t make it so.  Nor was South Africa uniquely brutal, as a visit to a labour camp may bring home to you. Nor were South Africans uniquely disadvantaged by a lack of education.

Apartheid took away humanity which communism left intact? Twenty millions deaths say that is just silly sloganeering.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ThaboM and Dave, you make my point fairly eloquently.</p>
<p>South Africa is not so exceptional. And a spurious listing of the two things you think you know about each country I listed doesn&#8217;t make it so.  Nor was South Africa uniquely brutal, as a visit to a labour camp may bring home to you. Nor were South Africans uniquely disadvantaged by a lack of education.</p>
<p>Apartheid took away humanity which communism left intact? Twenty millions deaths say that is just silly sloganeering.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Harris</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/imraanbuccus/2009/06/03/we-have-strayed-from-the-ideals-of-democracy-2/comment-page-1/#comment-84560</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 14:53:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/imraanbuccus/2009/06/03/we-have-strayed-from-the-ideals-of-democracy-2/#comment-84560</guid>
		<description>@OneFlew
ThaboM is absolutely right, you have a very limited understanding of democracy and from your comments you don&#039;t even realize it.

Communism took away the freedom of the people in those &#039;nascent democracies&#039; but apartheid went one step futher and took away ones humanity as well!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@OneFlew<br />
ThaboM is absolutely right, you have a very limited understanding of democracy and from your comments you don&#8217;t even realize it.</p>
<p>Communism took away the freedom of the people in those &#8216;nascent democracies&#8217; but apartheid went one step futher and took away ones humanity as well!</p>
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		<title>By: ThaboM</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/imraanbuccus/2009/06/03/we-have-strayed-from-the-ideals-of-democracy-2/comment-page-1/#comment-84523</link>
		<dc:creator>ThaboM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 22:37:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/imraanbuccus/2009/06/03/we-have-strayed-from-the-ideals-of-democracy-2/#comment-84523</guid>
		<description>@OneFlew 
To continue - Ukraine: I think you might have heard of the Orange Revolution and the difficulty of democracy there. Hardly a shining example.
I think I have pointed out enough flaws in your argument.
To your comments, South Africa is moving on. BEE and transformation are part of the agenda to end racial inequality (a legacy issue by the way) in this country and we will succeed. Already the size of the black middle class has grown substantially. We have held there free and fair elections and are working on a human rights culture.
Finally since South Africans are not trying to impress anyone, it is irrelevant that no-one is impressed. 
In closing, your statements show a clearly limited understanding of demcracy, of many of the democracies you mentioned and of South Africa.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@OneFlew<br />
To continue &#8211; Ukraine: I think you might have heard of the Orange Revolution and the difficulty of democracy there. Hardly a shining example.<br />
I think I have pointed out enough flaws in your argument.<br />
To your comments, South Africa is moving on. BEE and transformation are part of the agenda to end racial inequality (a legacy issue by the way) in this country and we will succeed. Already the size of the black middle class has grown substantially. We have held there free and fair elections and are working on a human rights culture.<br />
Finally since South Africans are not trying to impress anyone, it is irrelevant that no-one is impressed.<br />
In closing, your statements show a clearly limited understanding of demcracy, of many of the democracies you mentioned and of South Africa.</p>
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		<title>By: ThaboM</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/imraanbuccus/2009/06/03/we-have-strayed-from-the-ideals-of-democracy-2/comment-page-1/#comment-84522</link>
		<dc:creator>ThaboM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 22:28:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/imraanbuccus/2009/06/03/we-have-strayed-from-the-ideals-of-democracy-2/#comment-84522</guid>
		<description>@OneFlew - thanks for naming the democracies. I do not have knwoledge of all of them, but what I know convinces me that my statement was correct. Your comments are based on a superficial and selective understanding of these countries.
1) Belarus - is widely accepted to be a dictatorship, which has not had free-and-fair elections in a while. No wonder they are getting on with it, no-one is allowed to talk.
2) The ex-communist CEE countries. There are important reasons why they can move forward
- Oppression was maintained buy a foreign power (the Soviet Union), not an internal power. No reconciliation required.
- Communism for all its&#039; faults left behind a well educated population and social services. It catered for all the population not a minority. It also left did not leave behind huge inequality. 
So, you are not comparing applles with apples. Even then, there are important contradictions to your just moving on
- Czechoslovakia split up - it could not just move on
- In Poland two of the main parties still claim to be succesors of Solidarity (remember them), the past struggle against Communisom continues to play a part in politics.
Russia: Democracy has taken an autocratic form with muzzling of descent. The return to strongman politics is very much in line, with a debate by many Russians of how life was better under the Communists. There is a complex picture emerging there not as simplistic as you make it out to be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@OneFlew &#8211; thanks for naming the democracies. I do not have knwoledge of all of them, but what I know convinces me that my statement was correct. Your comments are based on a superficial and selective understanding of these countries.<br />
1) Belarus &#8211; is widely accepted to be a dictatorship, which has not had free-and-fair elections in a while. No wonder they are getting on with it, no-one is allowed to talk.<br />
2) The ex-communist CEE countries. There are important reasons why they can move forward<br />
- Oppression was maintained buy a foreign power (the Soviet Union), not an internal power. No reconciliation required.<br />
- Communism for all its&#8217; faults left behind a well educated population and social services. It catered for all the population not a minority. It also left did not leave behind huge inequality.<br />
So, you are not comparing applles with apples. Even then, there are important contradictions to your just moving on<br />
- Czechoslovakia split up &#8211; it could not just move on<br />
- In Poland two of the main parties still claim to be succesors of Solidarity (remember them), the past struggle against Communisom continues to play a part in politics.<br />
Russia: Democracy has taken an autocratic form with muzzling of descent. The return to strongman politics is very much in line, with a debate by many Russians of how life was better under the Communists. There is a complex picture emerging there not as simplistic as you make it out to be.</p>
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		<title>By: Kit</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/imraanbuccus/2009/06/03/we-have-strayed-from-the-ideals-of-democracy-2/comment-page-1/#comment-84324</link>
		<dc:creator>Kit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 22:26:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/imraanbuccus/2009/06/03/we-have-strayed-from-the-ideals-of-democracy-2/#comment-84324</guid>
		<description>Phillipa, you need to either let go your fixation with Ms Zille&#039;s housekeeper (whose name I believe may be Grace; there&#039;s nothing better than renaming someone to suit oneself to really begin depersonalising them).

Or alternatively, explain please whether only white people have housekeepers, maids, chauffeurs, gardeners, security guards, etc.  If this is the case, why is it so?  If this is not the case, does your fixation with Ms Zille&#039;s housekeeper continue to hold its appeal and why?

If all households (the majority of which not being white) immediately dismissed their housekeepers, maids and gardeners, what do you think the impact of this would be generally?  Negligible to positive?  I assume this is your belief.  On what do you base it?

Now there are employers who are really disgusting, pay employees less than the minimum wage, demand ridiculous hours, etc.  The point is that we have legislation to hit these employers, and it needs to be firmly applied.  Exploited workers need all the help that they can get.

If you have such a big problem with the hiring of employees in private homes, I would strongly suggest that you get in touch with your local Cosatu affiliates and others.  Express your concerns and begin a campaign to ban certain kinds of work that you view as demeaning.  Rich people can then just do their own housework and look after their own children or put them into daycare like the rest of us do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phillipa, you need to either let go your fixation with Ms Zille&#8217;s housekeeper (whose name I believe may be Grace; there&#8217;s nothing better than renaming someone to suit oneself to really begin depersonalising them).</p>
<p>Or alternatively, explain please whether only white people have housekeepers, maids, chauffeurs, gardeners, security guards, etc.  If this is the case, why is it so?  If this is not the case, does your fixation with Ms Zille&#8217;s housekeeper continue to hold its appeal and why?</p>
<p>If all households (the majority of which not being white) immediately dismissed their housekeepers, maids and gardeners, what do you think the impact of this would be generally?  Negligible to positive?  I assume this is your belief.  On what do you base it?</p>
<p>Now there are employers who are really disgusting, pay employees less than the minimum wage, demand ridiculous hours, etc.  The point is that we have legislation to hit these employers, and it needs to be firmly applied.  Exploited workers need all the help that they can get.</p>
<p>If you have such a big problem with the hiring of employees in private homes, I would strongly suggest that you get in touch with your local Cosatu affiliates and others.  Express your concerns and begin a campaign to ban certain kinds of work that you view as demeaning.  Rich people can then just do their own housework and look after their own children or put them into daycare like the rest of us do.</p>
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