A few days ago we had gathered in Athens, Greece, for a conference on participatory democracy. The conference organisers had certainly chosen an appropriate city — the city where democracy started. On a free conference day some of us made our way to the Acropolis to visit the memory of Socrates and actual council square where democracy had literally started — where the Athenians had gathered to take part in the very first process of participatory governance. How historic and significant, and how proud Athenians must be, I thought. On a “democracy high” I returned to my hotel to be met by an agitated and visibly emotional receptionist. He was warning guests not to go to a certain part of the city because there was a serious stand-off between the police and a group of immigrants. “These Muslims are asking for some rights again,” he said in a keen attempt at English. The receptionist’s comments came just as I was thinking that in the land of Plato and Socrates, the world’s great political philosophers, all would be well politically.
Clearly, this was not the case and we shouldn’t expect all to be perfect politically just because the ideas of political philosophy were first deliberated upon close to where the police where having a stand-off with protestors. In addition, in recent weeks, there have been a range of other stand-offs between police and the youth. The clashes have often been violent and many Greek youth have been attracted to the first mass anarchist movement since the Spanish civil war. The key issues have been extremely high youth unemployment, police repression and general hostility by right-wingers to immigrants, especially those from Pakistan, North Africa and Albania.
It must be said, however, that some Muslims were able to seek refuge from the right-wingers in a Greek Orthodox Church — the priest here put his life on the line to protect the vulnerable from xenophobic violence. And just a block away, one was able to see poverty in this historic city — the city that had given the world philosophy and democracy also had a poverty rate of 25%. In some ways, we are driven to think that Athenians would have a superior understanding of the dynamics of citizenship and democracy and thus not too much would go wrong politically and developmentally.
Clearly, this is a flawed argument and we should not expect more from this society, or should we? Similarly in South Africa we are respected as the “nation of Mandela”, the miracle nation. The notions of a rainbow society, peace and tolerance are often associated with us. But, ironically how violent and intolerant we were when dealing with immigrants last year. How we had forgotten what many of the countries in Africa had done for us during our dark days. How we had quickly forgotten that the world looks to us as that miracle, diverse nation — the nation that had moved from apartheid brutality to a peaceful post-apartheid setting with relative ease. And it’s not just our intolerance to “foreigners” that has shamed us. This column has often remarked on the intolerance and rank illegality with which local governments have responded to poor people’s movements across the country. And then there has been the appalling sexism with which some have responded to the legitimate election of Helen Zille to the premiership of the Western Cape.
This shameful behaviour indicates very clearly that there are elements among our politicians that only embrace democracy for as long as it delivers them to power. So, just as we shouldn’t expect Greece to get it all right, we should be weary about our democracy and world reputation in SA also. We need to do some collective growing up and to recognise that, in the words first used by Peter Vale, we are just an “ordinary country”.
We cannot, in good faith, simply accept that our liberation movement, our leaders, our institutions and our civil society is necessarily progressive or even decent. In 1994 no one would have imagined the destruction of the Warwick Triangle market in favour of a corporate mall. Anyone suggesting this would have been thought mad.
In 1994 no one would have imagined that a new minister of transport would even have to enquire about the appropriateness of accepting a luxury vehicle from a consortium of businesspeople invested in road building. But here we are in 2009 and all of this, and more, is real. Greeks are not always progressive just because democracy was invented in Greece. We South Africans are not always humane and progressive just because a mass people’s movement triumphed here against the madness of apartheid. It is time for us to grow up and face up to just how far we have strayed from the ideals that legitimate the power of our elites. We need to face up to the hard slog ahead. Hopefully, our president will be pointing us in the right direction when he delivers his State of the Nation address today.
Some very biased viewpoints don’t you think?
So Greeks are not democratic enough because of their hostility toward mainly Muslim illegal refugees? Seems like you are quick to point fingers at the Greeks but do you care about the all the legitimate refugees that are accommodated by the Greeks on a daily basis?
You then complain that Helen Zille is victimized by sexism but refuse to see how her very cabinet is an affront to womens empowerment and the spirit of our constitution. How about your take on Zille’s overt sexual personal attacks against members of the ANC and where this is taking our democracy?
Do you have anything positive to say about our nascent democracy or are you just another one of those DA apologists that get a high from your incessant whinging?
Dear Dave,
You address two very different issues in your response. I entirely agree with you that Ms Zille’s personal sexual attacks on Mr Zuma (let’s be more specific than members of the ANC) was absolutely wrong, out of line, and frankly his personal sexual behaviour is none of her business, nor anyone elses. However saying her cabinet is an ‘affront to women’s empowerment’ is a leap of reason that is entirely unproven. We always tend to confuse opportunities with outcomes. Ms Zille may quite simply have chosen the best people for the job and saying that this is an ‘affront’ implies that tokenism is more acceptable than competence. It would have been wiser to have said that the individuals appointed were not well chosen as individuals. I don’t see women passengers clamouring to ensure that their flight crew is 50% women on every flight …but they certainly should be clamouring to ensure that any woman who meets the flight test standards becomes a pilot…
An interesting note about the original Greek democracy. Do you know, that only wealthy citizens had the vote, whereas poor people and slaves were excluded?
Zille’s “overt sexual attacks” (not) are merely pointing out the hard FACTS about the dodgy sex habits of the new president. There’s no democratic reason to airbrush them away or pretend it doesn’t matter. And when ten men answer to one woman boss, you’re hardly undermining the non-sexist spirit of the constitution affirming women as the equal of men. You’re actually amplifying it.
The trouble with those Greeks, and the unrest of which the hotel concierge was warning, is that the malcontents are violent.
Doesn’t matter if they’re illegal Muslim immigrants or home-grown stroppy youngsters.
Violent protesting is not acceptable and it needs to be swiftly crushed with superior violence from the forces of law and order to drive home the point that choosing a route of violence in your “democratic” protest automatically invites you being maimed or killed. That bolsters democracy.
Imraan: what is truly astonishing about your piece is that you talk about the failure of local govenrment when it comes to delivering to the poor and then go on to try and potray Helen Zille as a victim of sexism (when in actual fact she is a worst sexist than those she accuses of being sexist). One would expect that you would atleast have some guts to acknowledge that her DA does not care a damn about poor people. Despite the majority of people in places such as Mitchells Plain voting for the DA continuously (more than in any other black area), they are the last to receive any services, they are still living in abject poverty. Her main concern has been the preservation of white privilege and, kiss up to her all you wish, she doesn’t give a smack of a damn about any person of color.
The MK’s statements are insulting and should be condemned in the strongest possible sense but they are NOT SEXIST.
The DA is the biggest threat to South Africa’s democracy. They are the reason for so much unemployment, poverty and are also partially responsible for the rampant crime. Yes, statistically there is a lower incidence of crime in general in the Western Cape but there is a higher incidence of violent crime. Zille should not take credit for having “fought crime”. Yes, one must give her credit for fighting corruption (except ofcourse in her own ranks-seeing as she has an alleged sex-pest in her cabinet) but what has she done about farm murders? By perpetuating the class system that impoverishes black, she is tacitly contributing to their death. Black children are become victims of violence because their parents have to take care of white babies but still Zille vehemently opposes the restoration of dignity among these downtrodden. Only a few blacks are among the middle classes, many are still poor and it’s not the fault of the government; or would Ms Zille blame the ANC for her privilege of enjoying the services of a black maid?
Dave, it does get a little tiresome to hear about the “nascent” democracy of South Africa.
Other newish democracies don’t make such an ostentatious display of their historical disabilities; they just get on with things.
Imraan correctly makes the point that South African politicians aren’t divinely inoculated against bad behaviour and that public vigilance is required.
There is often a tendency among South Africans to think that they are somehow superior or a chosen people (or conversely that they are rubbish, which is just the flip side of the same insecurity); it is good for them to be reminded that they are just the same as everyone else.
The Greek analogy was a fairly long bow (why should people who were smart say 2,500 years ago be any good today?) but I’ll accept the artistic licence he employed; it was clearly a memorable trip for him and it helped him to crystallise his thoughts.
Phillipa, most of the farm murders are not in this province but in KZN, North West etc. What has the DA got to do with that?
Dear OneFlew
Please name thse nascent democracies of yours that you are so highly aware of. General statements like yours are normally based on selective processing of information, would like to know which democracies you refer to
Has it occured to you that “Democracy” was invented by Ancient Greek paedophiles and homosexuals in a slave state where women and children were legally property of their father or husband, and had no rights, let alone voting rights? bing
Incidentally, the next city was a different country, and if you married outside of your home city your children weren’t allowed to be citizens unless you bribed the officials.
And where the law only applied to the rich, since there was no legal aid and so only the well off could afford lawyers.
The Spartans also used to sit around in parliament and discuss how many of the slaves they would cull annually, killing them to keep their numbers down and prevent them rebelling against the 10% of the (male) population who were allowed to bear arms and vote.
Therefore if you want to get back to the ideals of democracy kill a slave to stop them asking for a vote to vote against you for freedom.
Otherwise try taking a good idea from a bad civilisation and improve it in the light of experience, hindsight and history.
Quite a lop sided argument. Three years ago Jean-Jacques Rousseau in his Discourse on Inequality (1754) wrote ” The first man who, having fenced in a piece of land, said “This is mine,” and found people naive enough to believe him, that man was the true founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars, and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows: Beware of listening to this impostor; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody.” In South Africa Mandela’s Children, or fellow Africans roasted, killed and burned down the miserable shanties of other Africans. About 50 years ago citizens of the Indian sub-continent did the same to one and other.
correction should be three hundred years ago
STRAYED from Democracy??????
At least you (Imraan) are young enough to be given the benefit of the doubt about your capacity for insight!
Democracy has been given it’s final death blow the past month. It has been washed away on the steps of parliament and the downturn in the consumer & business confidence rating supports the fact that there is almost zero chance that all the wonderful promises will be fulfilled.
Unless of course ALL the fraudulently embezzled public funds [RBillions] by ALL the guilty persons from government and their affiliates are re-imbursed into the coffers.
Strikes are again the order of the day and massive tranches of funding must be paved towards organisations such as the Taxi industry that was stemmed from VIOLENT opposition to the order of the day then, and which is now unsustainable!
Will the few days of the sports spectaculars truly provide REAL jobs with social benefits and longterm security for the millions???????????????????????
No need to further list all the rest of miserable issues that normally the youth leagues embrace with vigour, but here are elevated to vitriolic political attack and racist polarisation alongside the ‘workers unions’.
There are plenty of blog sites where the irrational intemperate incoherence of the contributors makes them sites to be avoided. Some
contributors risk doing this to Thought Leader. You are perfectly entitled to your views but please try and express them in an adult manner. If you must make ridiculous sweeping statements please back them up with some hard facts
@Mark Robertson
“leap of reason that is entirely unproven”
Zille’s position at the head of her old boys cabinet says nothing about her sexism? Come on Mark, what did Margret Thatcher do to empower women in Britain? It speaks volumes about her conservative values and intolerance of diversity. ALL global companies on the planet encourage and leverage workforce diversity because this is precisely what promotes meritocracy. Diversity guards against cronyism and corruption – furthermore its simply the right thing to do!
If you don’t see a gender balance in the flight crew its because SAn airline companies are still stuck in the last century mindset. Fly on an airline in the US and you will see not only a better gender balance but an age balance as well. Undoubtedly, certain specialized professions are more suited to one gender over the other for various physical and social reasons but aren’t we speaking about mere politicians here? Look at how the ANC included women at every level of their power structure. There is NO excuse for Zille’s old boys cabinet – a replica of the old Nat party mindset. This outdated mindset is what blocks progress in our democracy, fortunately the younger generation will not take this lying down – this you can be certain of.
@Alisdair Budd
Apart from advertising your sexual preferences, and dissing the Greeks can you tell us what other form of government you think would be cool?
ThaboM, you cannot have the first idea what comments “like mine” “normally refer to”.
Since you ask, it would include places like the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia.
Even places like Russia, the Ukraine and Belarus would qualify.
You don’t see them fretting about their debilitating “legacy” and how hard they find this new democracy game, do you?
For that matter, places like Spain and Portugal also just got on with things once they got rid of their dictators. They are also relatively “new democracies”. And Portugal inherited an economic basket case.
It’s time for some South Africans just to get on with it and stop being such terrible “oh woe is me” whingers. It impresses no one.
Philippa,
Do you believe in reason or volume ?
When are you going to give us some facts rather than a diatribe ?
You equate white with wealth and black with dispossessed ? So what about the Khoi-San ? Ever heard of them ? And how they were enslaved by whites and blacks ?
Come back with facts and people might listen. Right now, you sound like PW Botha on a bad day.
Phillipa, you need to either let go your fixation with Ms Zille’s housekeeper (whose name I believe may be Grace; there’s nothing better than renaming someone to suit oneself to really begin depersonalising them).
Or alternatively, explain please whether only white people have housekeepers, maids, chauffeurs, gardeners, security guards, etc. If this is the case, why is it so? If this is not the case, does your fixation with Ms Zille’s housekeeper continue to hold its appeal and why?
If all households (the majority of which not being white) immediately dismissed their housekeepers, maids and gardeners, what do you think the impact of this would be generally? Negligible to positive? I assume this is your belief. On what do you base it?
Now there are employers who are really disgusting, pay employees less than the minimum wage, demand ridiculous hours, etc. The point is that we have legislation to hit these employers, and it needs to be firmly applied. Exploited workers need all the help that they can get.
If you have such a big problem with the hiring of employees in private homes, I would strongly suggest that you get in touch with your local Cosatu affiliates and others. Express your concerns and begin a campaign to ban certain kinds of work that you view as demeaning. Rich people can then just do their own housework and look after their own children or put them into daycare like the rest of us do.
@OneFlew – thanks for naming the democracies. I do not have knwoledge of all of them, but what I know convinces me that my statement was correct. Your comments are based on a superficial and selective understanding of these countries.
1) Belarus – is widely accepted to be a dictatorship, which has not had free-and-fair elections in a while. No wonder they are getting on with it, no-one is allowed to talk.
2) The ex-communist CEE countries. There are important reasons why they can move forward
- Oppression was maintained buy a foreign power (the Soviet Union), not an internal power. No reconciliation required.
- Communism for all its’ faults left behind a well educated population and social services. It catered for all the population not a minority. It also left did not leave behind huge inequality.
So, you are not comparing applles with apples. Even then, there are important contradictions to your just moving on
- Czechoslovakia split up – it could not just move on
- In Poland two of the main parties still claim to be succesors of Solidarity (remember them), the past struggle against Communisom continues to play a part in politics.
Russia: Democracy has taken an autocratic form with muzzling of descent. The return to strongman politics is very much in line, with a debate by many Russians of how life was better under the Communists. There is a complex picture emerging there not as simplistic as you make it out to be.
@OneFlew
To continue – Ukraine: I think you might have heard of the Orange Revolution and the difficulty of democracy there. Hardly a shining example.
I think I have pointed out enough flaws in your argument.
To your comments, South Africa is moving on. BEE and transformation are part of the agenda to end racial inequality (a legacy issue by the way) in this country and we will succeed. Already the size of the black middle class has grown substantially. We have held there free and fair elections and are working on a human rights culture.
Finally since South Africans are not trying to impress anyone, it is irrelevant that no-one is impressed.
In closing, your statements show a clearly limited understanding of demcracy, of many of the democracies you mentioned and of South Africa.
@OneFlew
ThaboM is absolutely right, you have a very limited understanding of democracy and from your comments you don’t even realize it.
Communism took away the freedom of the people in those ‘nascent democracies’ but apartheid went one step futher and took away ones humanity as well!
ThaboM and Dave, you make my point fairly eloquently.
South Africa is not so exceptional. And a spurious listing of the two things you think you know about each country I listed doesn’t make it so. Nor was South Africa uniquely brutal, as a visit to a labour camp may bring home to you. Nor were South Africans uniquely disadvantaged by a lack of education.
Apartheid took away humanity which communism left intact? Twenty millions deaths say that is just silly sloganeering.
Dear OneFlew
It is clear that your argument is baseless. You know less about the democracies that you mentioned than the 2 things I supposedly know.
Cross-country comparisons are always spurious because the person making the argument, chooses what to focus on and ignores the rest of the context. Your analyis is definitely spurious.
It is basically personal opinion masked as intelligence and it fails miserably.
It also takes one element of the discourse in SOuth Africa and makes it the defining one.
South Africa has a unique combination of issues, elements of them can be found elsewhere and we can learn from other countries on those points.
@DaveHarris
I disagree with your comment on communism. It definitely was brutal and dehumanising.
Apartheid was evil, but there is no need to try to position it as the greatest evil. There are and have been other evil regimes in the world.
No Thabo.
I have lived in SA, in old and new democracies. And I have worked in many of the countries mentioned. I am even a citizen of one.
The point is however a dead simple one and not aided in any way by a silly little wall-urinating contest.
The notion of SA exceptionalism is just a transparent attempt (and incidentally also a very old school, apartheid-era ruse) at rationalising SA parochialism. SA is not unique. It is not exceptional. It was not uniquely scarred, dislocated or left behind. It is not uniquely impoverished or disabled. It is often, however, dangerously introspective, self-referential, smug and self-satisfied.
That understanding is where the liberating insights and growth opportunities are, where the ability to break out of tired old holding patterns of thought is to be found. Not in the belief of your uniqueness, and not even in the belief that you may just possibly be able to learn little snippets from other countries on vanishingly small points of detail selected by yourself.
Indeed, much of the “we are unique” chorus is the spiritual successor of PW Botha’s performance in the 1985 Ted Koppel interview.
It reaches you via Mbeki’s “I am an African” speech, which segued into Aids denialism, blaming the CIA and the West for an alleged conspiracy, and finding common cause with Mugabe.
It is seen in common culture in the attacks on immigrants, the contempt variously displayed towards the US, the UK, Australia, Nigeria, India and its people and so on.
It is the same parochial cultural strain throughout.
The notion is that these (often perfidious and interfering) foreigners just don’t begin to understand you and all your complexity. It is a profoundly wrong-headed world-view.
@OneFlew
I bow before your superior non-wisdom. I prefer to listen to sociologists, economists, political scientists and other commentators on what is happening in those countries and ours, including an ability to see both similarities and differences.
I am afraid that your opinions carry little weight with me, because they are extreme generalisations. Also, stating that Belarus is a nascent democracy, indicates limited reflective ability or knowledge. I suspect that the opinions you have expressed are a hobby-horse of yours. Enjoy them.