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	<title>Comments on: Why invasion of Zimbabwe is a very real option</title>
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		<title>By: Shaggy</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/grantwalliser/2008/12/22/why-invasion-of-zimbabwe-is-a-very-real-option/comment-page-2/#comment-70239</link>
		<dc:creator>Shaggy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Feb 2009 11:06:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Ditto about cholera but hardly seesa gun in private hands in Zim and crime is low. Is it that all criminals have gone to SA? South Africans can not hide behind Zimbabwe for its crime record:its been like that well before the Zim problems. I am not saying there are contributory factors but just look in the mirror  you  may find your problems than in Zim. I havent had a gun held to me in Zim for the 40 years I lived there but I have been twice in SA in the two years that I lived there</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ditto about cholera but hardly seesa gun in private hands in Zim and crime is low. Is it that all criminals have gone to SA? South Africans can not hide behind Zimbabwe for its crime record:its been like that well before the Zim problems. I am not saying there are contributory factors but just look in the mirror  you  may find your problems than in Zim. I havent had a gun held to me in Zim for the 40 years I lived there but I have been twice in SA in the two years that I lived there</p>
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		<title>By: Anne</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/grantwalliser/2008/12/22/why-invasion-of-zimbabwe-is-a-very-real-option/comment-page-2/#comment-65830</link>
		<dc:creator>Anne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jan 2009 18:27:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thank you - you have given me some hope for the future, and I hope that Cope proves to be the opposition we need in this country.  It&#039;s not that I necessarily agree with them, for me it&#039;s still too early to tell what sort of people their leaders are.  What is important is that as far as I can tell they are making people question that blind loyalty to the ANC, which must be the first step towards a democracy?  I hope it will help to develop that culture of democracy, anyway.

The weakness in the ANC leaders is manifesting in their need to impress with blue lights and huge entourages.  It is worrying, because it is a clear sign of the tyranny you speak of.  And it is the path to Zimbabwe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you &#8211; you have given me some hope for the future, and I hope that Cope proves to be the opposition we need in this country.  It&#8217;s not that I necessarily agree with them, for me it&#8217;s still too early to tell what sort of people their leaders are.  What is important is that as far as I can tell they are making people question that blind loyalty to the ANC, which must be the first step towards a democracy?  I hope it will help to develop that culture of democracy, anyway.</p>
<p>The weakness in the ANC leaders is manifesting in their need to impress with blue lights and huge entourages.  It is worrying, because it is a clear sign of the tyranny you speak of.  And it is the path to Zimbabwe.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Whelan</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/grantwalliser/2008/12/22/why-invasion-of-zimbabwe-is-a-very-real-option/comment-page-2/#comment-65796</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Whelan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jan 2009 09:35:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/grantwalliser/2008/12/22/why-invasion-of-zimbabwe-is-a-very-real-option/#comment-65796</guid>
		<description>Anne

I wonder if these perspectives might help.

Among countless others, Churchill said something along the lines that democracy is a very imperfect form of govt., but much the best when you consider the alternatives.

The view has much truth in it, but do not stop there. Ask yourself whether southern Africa at this time has &#039;democracy&#039;. &#039;Democracy&#039; hasn&#039;t arrived, you know, just because the ANC, or Zanu-PF, or &#039;independent&#039; analysts, or bloggers, keep taking for granted that it has, or because we all keep using the word.

You question how much support Zanu-PF has. But a straight look at the facts shows it is irrelevant how much support Zanu-PF has. Zimbabwe is not a democracy. It is a tyranny.

Back home, the opposing view says that what SA got between 1990-4 was not &#039;democracy&#039;, but a possible first step towards it: emancipation - liberty. Just as there are different forms of &#039;democracy&#039;, so there are different stages of it, steps on a journey. Things may have far to go before SA acquires &#039;democracy&#039; to a standard that satisfies your hopes of it.

That is the point. &#039;Democracy&#039; isn&#039;t a once-and-for-all gift that the ANC (or anyone else) kindly bestows on &#039;the people&#039;. It is a culture - literally, a way of life - that grows slowly out of people&#039;s lived experience.

The vital feature of that culture is not only a moral or spiritual quality &#039;the people&#039; develop, say, a longing for freedom, but also institutional.

The ANC has in many ways weakened the institutional structure of SA&#039;s bright new republic, especially in recent years, when the growing split in the party made both &#039;sides&#039; panic at the prospect of losing the old certainty of power.

There is one very simple reason for this, which almost everyone even now shuns talking about. Through all the years so far, the most important institutional feature of &#039;democracy&#039; has been missing: namely, real opposition - the chance of the people changing their govt. if they choose to. Opposition is the first blow to what all of us have most to fear - an otherwise blind loyalty.

Let us see if we are over, or st least approaching the end of, that stage. But even then, remember no one&#039;s ever achieved &#039;democracy&#039; in the sense of a final achievement, because &#039;democracy&#039; is a permanent work in progress.

There is no perfect state of human affairs; only tyrannies claim to offer paradise on earth.

Democracy is forever just trying to get there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anne</p>
<p>I wonder if these perspectives might help.</p>
<p>Among countless others, Churchill said something along the lines that democracy is a very imperfect form of govt., but much the best when you consider the alternatives.</p>
<p>The view has much truth in it, but do not stop there. Ask yourself whether southern Africa at this time has &#8216;democracy&#8217;. &#8216;Democracy&#8217; hasn&#8217;t arrived, you know, just because the ANC, or Zanu-PF, or &#8216;independent&#8217; analysts, or bloggers, keep taking for granted that it has, or because we all keep using the word.</p>
<p>You question how much support Zanu-PF has. But a straight look at the facts shows it is irrelevant how much support Zanu-PF has. Zimbabwe is not a democracy. It is a tyranny.</p>
<p>Back home, the opposing view says that what SA got between 1990-4 was not &#8216;democracy&#8217;, but a possible first step towards it: emancipation &#8211; liberty. Just as there are different forms of &#8216;democracy&#8217;, so there are different stages of it, steps on a journey. Things may have far to go before SA acquires &#8216;democracy&#8217; to a standard that satisfies your hopes of it.</p>
<p>That is the point. &#8216;Democracy&#8217; isn&#8217;t a once-and-for-all gift that the ANC (or anyone else) kindly bestows on &#8216;the people&#8217;. It is a culture &#8211; literally, a way of life &#8211; that grows slowly out of people&#8217;s lived experience.</p>
<p>The vital feature of that culture is not only a moral or spiritual quality &#8216;the people&#8217; develop, say, a longing for freedom, but also institutional.</p>
<p>The ANC has in many ways weakened the institutional structure of SA&#8217;s bright new republic, especially in recent years, when the growing split in the party made both &#8216;sides&#8217; panic at the prospect of losing the old certainty of power.</p>
<p>There is one very simple reason for this, which almost everyone even now shuns talking about. Through all the years so far, the most important institutional feature of &#8216;democracy&#8217; has been missing: namely, real opposition &#8211; the chance of the people changing their govt. if they choose to. Opposition is the first blow to what all of us have most to fear &#8211; an otherwise blind loyalty.</p>
<p>Let us see if we are over, or st least approaching the end of, that stage. But even then, remember no one&#8217;s ever achieved &#8216;democracy&#8217; in the sense of a final achievement, because &#8216;democracy&#8217; is a permanent work in progress.</p>
<p>There is no perfect state of human affairs; only tyrannies claim to offer paradise on earth.</p>
<p>Democracy is forever just trying to get there.</p>
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		<title>By: Anne</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/grantwalliser/2008/12/22/why-invasion-of-zimbabwe-is-a-very-real-option/comment-page-2/#comment-65775</link>
		<dc:creator>Anne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jan 2009 05:58:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/grantwalliser/2008/12/22/why-invasion-of-zimbabwe-is-a-very-real-option/#comment-65775</guid>
		<description>Paul,
You&#039;ve put your finger on my main objection to democracy.  I know it&#039;s the best option, but I&#039;ve always felt that democracy is a very flawed system.  Because loyalty is stronger than reason, and if you get enough blind loyalists they force anyone who thinks that reason is more important, when it comes to running a country, to exist under sub standard, and in Zimbabwe&#039;s case, criminal governments.  

I had always thought that education was the key - teach people to expect more and question what goes on around them.  But then I watch educated people like Michael Trapido picking apart just about every single aspect of the ANC goverment, and yet his loyalty to them is unaffected, he will apparently vote for them no matter what.

Funny that people don&#039;t expect the same loyalty when it comes to marriage - an institution where a promise of loyalty is extracted under oath.  In a country with one of the higest divorce rates in the world, it is astonishing that nothing will make our citizens see that loyalty to a government who has failed in just about every aspect is misplaced.

I lived the first half of my life under a hated Nat government, now it seems that I will be forced to live the second half under an inept and greedy one.  I will never be able to be proud of what they do, and I see the possiblities of where they are going in the example of Zimbabwe.

It would be interesting to see exactly how many supporters Zanu-PF actually has.  I&#039;ve often wondered.  They talk about nearly 50% voting for him, but with all the vote rigging, coersion and bribery, I wonder how many truly believe in them?  I used to think the only people who did were either Mugabe and his cronies, or those who gain financially.  And then we get people like Tafi and others, and my belief in humanity takes yet another knock.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul,<br />
You&#8217;ve put your finger on my main objection to democracy.  I know it&#8217;s the best option, but I&#8217;ve always felt that democracy is a very flawed system.  Because loyalty is stronger than reason, and if you get enough blind loyalists they force anyone who thinks that reason is more important, when it comes to running a country, to exist under sub standard, and in Zimbabwe&#8217;s case, criminal governments.  </p>
<p>I had always thought that education was the key &#8211; teach people to expect more and question what goes on around them.  But then I watch educated people like Michael Trapido picking apart just about every single aspect of the ANC goverment, and yet his loyalty to them is unaffected, he will apparently vote for them no matter what.</p>
<p>Funny that people don&#8217;t expect the same loyalty when it comes to marriage &#8211; an institution where a promise of loyalty is extracted under oath.  In a country with one of the higest divorce rates in the world, it is astonishing that nothing will make our citizens see that loyalty to a government who has failed in just about every aspect is misplaced.</p>
<p>I lived the first half of my life under a hated Nat government, now it seems that I will be forced to live the second half under an inept and greedy one.  I will never be able to be proud of what they do, and I see the possiblities of where they are going in the example of Zimbabwe.</p>
<p>It would be interesting to see exactly how many supporters Zanu-PF actually has.  I&#8217;ve often wondered.  They talk about nearly 50% voting for him, but with all the vote rigging, coersion and bribery, I wonder how many truly believe in them?  I used to think the only people who did were either Mugabe and his cronies, or those who gain financially.  And then we get people like Tafi and others, and my belief in humanity takes yet another knock.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Whelan</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/grantwalliser/2008/12/22/why-invasion-of-zimbabwe-is-a-very-real-option/comment-page-2/#comment-65663</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Whelan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jan 2009 08:21:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/grantwalliser/2008/12/22/why-invasion-of-zimbabwe-is-a-very-real-option/#comment-65663</guid>
		<description>Anne

Make no mistake, I share your feelings.

What seems important to understand though is that while it is impossible by now to think of any grounds on which to support Zanu-PF - democratic grounds or grounds of social justice; good governance, hope for a better future or just  basic &#039;efficiency&#039;; even common humanity and mercy - yet people do support Zanu-PF. 

The most frequently heard explanation is that Mugabe is &#039;standing up against the west&#039;. But this flies in the face of reason itself when it is one&#039;s own people who are suffering because of the gentleman&#039;s &#039;courage&#039;.

Not even fear explains it, because many of Mugabe&#039;s opponents have overcome fear of him.

So it leaves only loyalty. A bit like supporting your soccer team no matter how often it loses - but of course, horribly worse.

The question is, How do you change that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anne</p>
<p>Make no mistake, I share your feelings.</p>
<p>What seems important to understand though is that while it is impossible by now to think of any grounds on which to support Zanu-PF &#8211; democratic grounds or grounds of social justice; good governance, hope for a better future or just  basic &#8216;efficiency&#8217;; even common humanity and mercy &#8211; yet people do support Zanu-PF. </p>
<p>The most frequently heard explanation is that Mugabe is &#8216;standing up against the west&#8217;. But this flies in the face of reason itself when it is one&#8217;s own people who are suffering because of the gentleman&#8217;s &#8216;courage&#8217;.</p>
<p>Not even fear explains it, because many of Mugabe&#8217;s opponents have overcome fear of him.</p>
<p>So it leaves only loyalty. A bit like supporting your soccer team no matter how often it loses &#8211; but of course, horribly worse.</p>
<p>The question is, How do you change that?</p>
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		<title>By: Anne</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/grantwalliser/2008/12/22/why-invasion-of-zimbabwe-is-a-very-real-option/comment-page-2/#comment-65604</link>
		<dc:creator>Anne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 2009 09:04:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/grantwalliser/2008/12/22/why-invasion-of-zimbabwe-is-a-very-real-option/#comment-65604</guid>
		<description>Paul,
I agree with you that debating issues with others with different view points is be both enlightening and interesting.

But for me there are some things that are indefensible, like someone trying to justify Hitler&#039;s extermination of the Jews.  For me, Mugabe&#039;s treatment of his own people falls into this catagory.

It&#039;s also the concept of &#039;having one&#039;s cake and eating it&#039; that I object to.  To demand the right to make a mess of your own country while at the same time expecting others to bail you out, and blaming everyone else for that mess is just not acceptable to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul,<br />
I agree with you that debating issues with others with different view points is be both enlightening and interesting.</p>
<p>But for me there are some things that are indefensible, like someone trying to justify Hitler&#8217;s extermination of the Jews.  For me, Mugabe&#8217;s treatment of his own people falls into this catagory.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also the concept of &#8216;having one&#8217;s cake and eating it&#8217; that I object to.  To demand the right to make a mess of your own country while at the same time expecting others to bail you out, and blaming everyone else for that mess is just not acceptable to me.</p>
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		<title>By: jay</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/grantwalliser/2008/12/22/why-invasion-of-zimbabwe-is-a-very-real-option/comment-page-2/#comment-65541</link>
		<dc:creator>jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 02:52:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/grantwalliser/2008/12/22/why-invasion-of-zimbabwe-is-a-very-real-option/#comment-65541</guid>
		<description>I have made my feelings known several times to several people - so rather that re-write it here, I am just leaving the link below.

If it is not there, then it has not yet been approved - or struck out.

http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2008/12/27/wrong-mr-mantashe-invasion-of-zimbabwe-is-unnecessary/#comment-65540</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have made my feelings known several times to several people &#8211; so rather that re-write it here, I am just leaving the link below.</p>
<p>If it is not there, then it has not yet been approved &#8211; or struck out.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2008/12/27/wrong-mr-mantashe-invasion-of-zimbabwe-is-unnecessary/#comment-65540" rel="nofollow">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/traps/2008/12/27/wrong-mr-mantashe-invasion-of-zimbabwe-is-unnecessary/#comment-65540</a></p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/grantwalliser/2008/12/22/why-invasion-of-zimbabwe-is-a-very-real-option/comment-page-2/#comment-65509</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 10:46:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/grantwalliser/2008/12/22/why-invasion-of-zimbabwe-is-a-very-real-option/#comment-65509</guid>
		<description>Couldn&#039;t agree with you more Paul</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Couldn&#8217;t agree with you more Paul</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Whelan</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/grantwalliser/2008/12/22/why-invasion-of-zimbabwe-is-a-very-real-option/comment-page-2/#comment-65503</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Whelan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 09:57:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/grantwalliser/2008/12/22/why-invasion-of-zimbabwe-is-a-very-real-option/#comment-65503</guid>
		<description>Rod MacKenzie/Anne

There are different people and different views and different loyalties in the world - that is the answer to your question.

If you do give us a blog on Zim, Rod, it would be interesting to consider a)what can be done in Zim?; b) what is the &#039;right&#039; thing to do (if that is different)?; and c) what are the implications for policy and &#039;democracy&#039; when there is no general agreement on what to do?

Every commentator always assumes that it is &#039;obvious&#039; what to do about Zim. Visibly, it is not.

Now, imagine you were SA president ... what would you do?

Also, Anne, it is often useful to argue points with people of different opinions, like Tafi, if only to get straight your own ideas and beliefs by understanding others&#039;.

In this connection perhaps you&#039;ll notice that Tafi has not replied to my last post to him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rod MacKenzie/Anne</p>
<p>There are different people and different views and different loyalties in the world &#8211; that is the answer to your question.</p>
<p>If you do give us a blog on Zim, Rod, it would be interesting to consider a)what can be done in Zim?; b) what is the &#8216;right&#8217; thing to do (if that is different)?; and c) what are the implications for policy and &#8216;democracy&#8217; when there is no general agreement on what to do?</p>
<p>Every commentator always assumes that it is &#8216;obvious&#8217; what to do about Zim. Visibly, it is not.</p>
<p>Now, imagine you were SA president &#8230; what would you do?</p>
<p>Also, Anne, it is often useful to argue points with people of different opinions, like Tafi, if only to get straight your own ideas and beliefs by understanding others&#8217;.</p>
<p>In this connection perhaps you&#8217;ll notice that Tafi has not replied to my last post to him.</p>
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		<title>By: Rod MacKenzie</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/grantwalliser/2008/12/22/why-invasion-of-zimbabwe-is-a-very-real-option/comment-page-2/#comment-65442</link>
		<dc:creator>Rod MacKenzie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Dec 2008 22:13:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/grantwalliser/2008/12/22/why-invasion-of-zimbabwe-is-a-very-real-option/#comment-65442</guid>
		<description>Why oh why does the common sense, the simple, easy-to-grasp, inarguable thinking Grant Walliser doles out mean nothing to the Zanu-PF supporters, or Sentletse Diakanyo et al.? Why? What is really going on here that they mistily and dreamily miss the point? I feel a blog coming on, have to try it from a different angle.Or maybe not. Very few people really care about Zimbabwe anymore I think, in any real way. Her citizens prefer to live in SA anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why oh why does the common sense, the simple, easy-to-grasp, inarguable thinking Grant Walliser doles out mean nothing to the Zanu-PF supporters, or Sentletse Diakanyo et al.? Why? What is really going on here that they mistily and dreamily miss the point? I feel a blog coming on, have to try it from a different angle.Or maybe not. Very few people really care about Zimbabwe anymore I think, in any real way. Her citizens prefer to live in SA anyway.</p>
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