One line of comments stood out for me as I reacquaint myself with Thought Leader. It stood out because of its callousness. In response to an article by David Saks a commentator called Michael Liermann writes:
Yes, surely there will be no peace in the Middle East until Palestinians stop ruthlessly damaging IDF rifle-butts with their faces.
To which, David Saks responds as follows:
Michael Liermann — Right. Not to mention how Israeli soldiers stick their bayonets into the bellies of pregnant Palestinian babies.
(In case you wondering, David Saks reply is copied correctly. Ask him why he uses the word “babies” instead of “mothers”.)
Now I can complain about the insensitivity and callousness, point out the various reports detailing war crimes in Gaza and vehemently object to this caustic rendering of the Palestinian struggle as melodrama. However, that is a stance for a blog post on another day. For today, I cannot wait to be accused of selectively quoting, and other misdemeanours (including distorting history, misunderstanding Middle East history etc, etc). But rather for today ponder the following observation:
Is the exchange recorded above not the contemporary equivalent of someone arrogantly saying during a food shortage: “If there is no bread, let them eat cake!”?
Feels like you were going to write more and at 10:20 a reminder on your fone gave a buzz to say your flight is at 10:30, so you clicked save>publish.
Hope you re-visit this topic because it speaks of th bigger picture, hoe do we define injustice as South African. Look at how many articles are written about Brendon Huntley who left because this country did not deliver to him vs Skhumbuzo Mhlongo who hanged himself because this country did not deliver to him? Would you rather a man who hangs himself than a man who hangs the whole country.
I sometimes wonder whether the “moderation” that happens on “Thought Leader” is not disguised censorship only done to weed out views that do not conform to MG editorial policy. I am not surprised about your dismay at one of the TL esteemed writer’s and commentator’s callousness.
I find that the overall tone on the TL blogs is very much conservative and right-wing. Most of the articles are liberal and progressive in style but clearly supremacist and Verwoedian in intent. One has to find it very hard to obtain any authentic and original writings. Most blogs are a regurgitation of mainstream media biases, angles and perception of reality.
Oh please would both sides stop trying to gain high ground. You have both lost it long ago. You are both completely inflexible, neither party actually wants peace and you make the rest of us party to this incessant tit for tat bullshit with no end.
“He said this”, “she did that”. Blah blah blah. The rest of the world is tired of it now. So get off your high horses, sit around a table like adults and come to consensus so that you break the cycle and give your children hope. Sure there will be issues but if either of you actually wanted to find a solution it could happen.
And hey, if the solution turns out to be bad one you can just go back to the old firing rockets, suicide bombing, airstriking settlement building mess you have right now and you have lost nothing.
But noooo, we would rather puff out our indignant little chests and mutter self-righteously every time the other side does something terrible while conveniently forgetting the last terrible thing your side did. “This was in retaliation for that”. Only a moron would not see how that goes on forever and ever and ever.
Grow up both of you!
And please stop making this shit our problem. We have had enough!
EBRAHIM
it’s not just insensitive it’s hatred
keep them on their toes
@ sabelo – going to be writing more on this subject
@ madoda – interesting. i think the very concept of “thought leadership” implies having a superior position. i write here, but i aspire to a more democratic understanding of knowledge.
@ grant – actually we agree on some points. i would like nothing more than a mature discussion on this, and for a resolution of the conflict. just make certain, you are not absconding on your responsibility, because this problem is all of ours. but, thanks for writing.
I am sure the mothers of Israel would like to see their children grow up happy and safe jusr as much as the mothers of Palestinians would. Problem is what does one do with all those trained and brainwasdhed by the past and the media of the present today who thrive on death and bad evil things. No-one has enough brain cells to say put down your weapons on both sides and lets thrash out the real issue which is life and living not building walls to divide and sending people to die and take others out with them. Violence begets violence and survival suffers the most. Survival of all people of good intent who merely wish to go about their daily lives and get together again at night around their tables as families. What about embracing your enemies instead of hating them, feeling sorry for their suffering and forgetting your own for a while. Why fight when you could love one another. Let go of the past and focus on this moment and making it one worth remembering for its happiness not it’s bitterness. Death comes soon enough, while you have life appreciate it and share what you have.
@ sizwe – thanks for writing.
@ mat girl – i totally agree with you, there must be a solution, and one with justice. and yes, the real test will be in the everyday interactions. it needs leadership on both sides.
Well, I tried to do my bit in understanding the problem and debating the issue and eventually you realise that no matter what you do, it is up to the people in charge to do the right thing and the people who put them there or supply them with a powerbase to compel them to do so.
Neither is happening and frankly life is hard enough for the rest of us without having to deal with issues which affect people far away when those same people are not trying to do the right thing themselves.
Sooo, short of writing my thoughts, there is not much else I can do or feel I should do. You can’t do much for people who don’t seem to want to help themselves.
I mean, I could travel to the unholy land and tell them all to abandon their rigid, neaderthal religions and sit together and communicate freely without the indoctrination that is hampering the process but I fear I may just become the next casualty of this pointless stalemate.
I therefore respectfully disagree. It is not everybody’s problewm nearly as much as it is the problem of Israelis and Palesatinians and I repeat my appeal to them to behave like grownups and sort it out.
Don’t confuse apathy with frustration. I would dearly love a solution, I am just tired of watching the people who could provide one behave like petulant children while those without power suffer and die.
My understanding on the literal question above – and please note I have no interest either way in the Middle East conflict – is that Mr Saks use of the word ‘babies’ instead of ‘mothers’ was satirising the victim propaganda of Palestinians – of course babies can’t be mothers – rather than indicating ‘let them eat cake’ in the sense of showing contempt for a factual statement. Hence rather than showing contempt for a ‘real’ suffering, it parodies victim propaganda. This is simply a literal reading. No doubt there is much propoaganda on both sides. Grant’s comments are spot on – both sides need to want peace more than victory, and then the fighting will end.
I nearly missed this – fortunately Meltwater News alerted me.
My “callousness” was in reality a backhander aimed at the kind of hysterical atrocity-mongering that Israel’s enemies have engaged in since 1948 and no doubt before then as well. The latest revolting manifestation of this tactic has been the Medieval-like libel that Israel is harvesting the organs of captured Palestinian children for financial gain. Contemptious mockery is the only appropriate response to such slander.
@ David Saks – We agree, everyone supporting the Palestinians should just stick to the facts to argue that atrocities by Israel have taken place. In my view that is well substantiated position, and does not need any “atrocity-mongering”. But, it is very common to reduce every argument by ones opponents to “contemptious mockery” because then one does not need to deal with substantive arguments. In the same vein, those supporting Israel should not keep repeating faslsehoods. More on the Israeli propoganda to come in a future post on TL.
@ GW – Noted. You make some valuable points. I for one – as a Muslim – do not think this conflict is about or should be about religion, so on that we agree. It is rather about oppression and power, and on this one has to make a distinction between the oppressed and the oppressor. And, yes resolving it needs some leadership.
@ Mark – Thanks for writing.I get the satirising bit and the parody. I totally do. But, you need to ask whether that comes from whimsy or from a darker place. I think it is a darker place. And thus using “babies” instead of “mothers” is not simply parody, but read in the context of the reallity of children dying in Gaza (and there is abundant proof of that) I think callous. I think that is called a “contextual reading” or something fancy like that.
The Israel-Palestine issue is so polarizing that I ( like many others ) just wish to say let them get on with it.Most Moslems side with the Arabs and most right wing christianss and Jews side with Israel ( Except for American Jews who seem to hate Israel.There is no right or wrong , just an opinion based on where one comes from.What is true is that both sides have been let down by the world, the Israelis by the West and the Palestinians by the Arabs who prefer them to stay in refugee camps.
Unfortunately religion is both the defining fault line for the us and the them, the root cause of all the fracas around who ‘gets’ Jerusalem and most importantly the fodder for those who need to rally support to their cause and I could go on.
Religion and in this case religious differences make the whole thing possible. In the greater sphere, the Muslim world identifies with the Palestinians and the Christian world identifies with the Israelis (probably because they share a common fear of Muslims). Abolish religion and you will narrow the gap and talks will probably happen sooner and more easily. Fat chance of that so we will go on until common sense prevails and people realise that religion is a quaint relic of the past and human understanding of our condition has left it far behind.
I am christian I dont identify with what the Israelis are doing! The greatest Law is about loving God with one’s whole might, then loving one’s neighbours(read: outside one’s tribe).
If you want something so bad that you debase your own humanity by not seeing your own wrong doing; then that which you covet replaces God and is an abominable Idol. No wonder the moral compass of our friend is lost.
The Torah teaches that God has a place in us when we take away the SELF and replace it by diligently seeking the well-being of the OTHER person.
USING lethal weapons that cause the deterioration of the victim’s DNA is surely an ABOMINATION and defending it erodes one’s credibility as a human being; it really places you in the class of predators and remorseless killers. Uprooting 50 year-old olive trees, ranks with the irreedeemably irrational.
The irony is they (both Palestinian and Israelis) have not even started to exhaust all peaceful means available to them.
@ grant and joe – you both make good points. maybe i will try to flesh out the arguments for a less religious understanding of the conflict for writing.
@ mandla – thank you for writing. i totally agree with your sentiments. there is no religious basis for using lethal weapons.
@ Ebrahim
I am somewhat dissappointed that you left me hanging with your short blog.I do of course have suspicion that you just wanted to start a debate that has been thrashed a billion times.
For starters,I wish to remind people that if you come to my house and take my furniture,my house and rape my daughter,I do have a right to kill you.It is history now why Israel was given statehood in 1948 at the expense of Palestine.The 1967 war put more oil in the fire leading to so many Palestinian displacements.And what do the Americans do,vote for leaders who annually have a military budget to increase the artillery of Israel.The people of Gaza can bear testimony to that.Defenseless people had to scatter around early this year all in the name of “threat to Israel”.And then you have comments from Matgirl,who feel we must forget all these atrocities.
The world has seen that USA is no more the superpower it used to be.She still needs allies to conqure the world.If that power is dimished ultimately,who do the people of Israel think is going to defend them?
Readers do note there is no where in my contribution do I refer to Jews and Muslims.This war for land repossession is not based on religious affiliation.I am christian and do not support what Israel is doing.
I agree with Grant above.
Religion is at the root of most of the political differences in the Middle East – and around many parts of the world as well.
If we remove the institutionalised superstition that comes with religion, we’ll remove most of the obstacles to peace and cooperation.
It’s quite ironic that all conflicting religions seem to manage to put aside their differences and work together in some sort of unholy alliance in the face of increasing secularism. It’s as if all religion’s have agreed to work together on this, so that they can get back to killing each other, and trying to out breed each other.
As for the comments on Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians, why are we still in the frame of my mind that Israel is a poor victim in this situation?! How did the dialogue became so asymmetric in Israel’s favour, when the violence and exploitation is so assymetrically in Israel’s favour as well?
From a cartoon, can you witness some minds using words like insult, bad, evil, censorship, oppressors, the Palestinian struggle, rifle butts, the bayoneting of life, murder and more?
Can you see their painful meanings rise up and try to attach to you like some alien creature? Or are you so lost in the flow human suffering that you too become that suffering?
Do you lose yourself in the unconscious of human suffering? Awake but asleep in acting out suffering.
Can you feel yourself enjoy the excitement of a struggle to win against the wrong? And if you do, while you are lost in that suffering, do know that others experience your temporary identity?
Is it better that you want your mind-made enemies to suffer and lose, or do you really want those you love to resonate with your unconscious pain? Do you want them them to join the importance of your delusion to be right at any cost? Of course you don’t, that would be insane wouldn’t it.
Lose not a drop of Love in an ocean of hate.
Think Peace Not sure if these questions are directed at me. I would not want to be right at any cost. Of course that would be insane. But, your questions leave me wondering, does that mean one has to disengage because of complexity, as most decisions are never that clear cut.