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	<title>Comments on: The politics of redistribution</title>
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	<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/ebrahimkhalilhassen/2007/11/26/the-politics-of-redistribution/</link>
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		<title>By: Ebrahim-Khalil Hassen</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/ebrahimkhalilhassen/2007/11/26/the-politics-of-redistribution/comment-page-1/#comment-7416</link>
		<dc:creator>Ebrahim-Khalil Hassen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 11:22:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/ebrahimkhalilhassen/2007/11/26/the-politics-of-redistribution/#comment-7416</guid>
		<description>@ MidaFo - Tnanks for the comments. I agree culture is not important, but I do not that there is more going on than just culture. 

@ Oupoot - Thanks for the link. Very interesting stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ MidaFo &#8211; Tnanks for the comments. I agree culture is not important, but I do not that there is more going on than just culture. </p>
<p>@ Oupoot &#8211; Thanks for the link. Very interesting stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: Oupoot</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/ebrahimkhalilhassen/2007/11/26/the-politics-of-redistribution/comment-page-1/#comment-7396</link>
		<dc:creator>Oupoot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 08:27:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/ebrahimkhalilhassen/2007/11/26/the-politics-of-redistribution/#comment-7396</guid>
		<description>Ebrahim, I thought it may interest you this discussion about how agricultural subsidies in Malawi has rejuvinated the agricultural sector in that country. http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2007/12/are-some-develo.html#more

Would a similar agricultural subsidy for small scale agriculture not also benefit agriculture in rural Eastern Cape, KZN, Mpumalanga and Limpopo as a first step to radically develop the agricultural sector in these parts of the country. Possibly also smaller land reform and redistribution projects?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ebrahim, I thought it may interest you this discussion about how agricultural subsidies in Malawi has rejuvinated the agricultural sector in that country. <a href="http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2007/12/are-some-develo.html#more" rel="nofollow">http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2007/12/are-some-develo.html#more</a></p>
<p>Would a similar agricultural subsidy for small scale agriculture not also benefit agriculture in rural Eastern Cape, KZN, Mpumalanga and Limpopo as a first step to radically develop the agricultural sector in these parts of the country. Possibly also smaller land reform and redistribution projects?</p>
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		<title>By: MidaFo</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/ebrahimkhalilhassen/2007/11/26/the-politics-of-redistribution/comment-page-1/#comment-7178</link>
		<dc:creator>MidaFo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 13:15:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/ebrahimkhalilhassen/2007/11/26/the-politics-of-redistribution/#comment-7178</guid>
		<description>We cannot pretend that cultural perspective does not play a part. It is simply silly to ignore it, like wearing a blindfold because there is a snake in the room. Owen&#039;s statement that rich and poor don&#039;t know skin colour is a blindfold statement. Culture and religion lie at the heart of distribution of wealth in all its forms.
Winning this debate is not the point of it but Owen&#039;s post about China was brutally inadequate. Sorry if this post is inadequate but it is all getting too confusing for me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We cannot pretend that cultural perspective does not play a part. It is simply silly to ignore it, like wearing a blindfold because there is a snake in the room. Owen&#8217;s statement that rich and poor don&#8217;t know skin colour is a blindfold statement. Culture and religion lie at the heart of distribution of wealth in all its forms.<br />
Winning this debate is not the point of it but Owen&#8217;s post about China was brutally inadequate. Sorry if this post is inadequate but it is all getting too confusing for me.</p>
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		<title>By: Ebrahim-Khalil Hassen</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/ebrahimkhalilhassen/2007/11/26/the-politics-of-redistribution/comment-page-1/#comment-7068</link>
		<dc:creator>Ebrahim-Khalil Hassen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 07:20:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/ebrahimkhalilhassen/2007/11/26/the-politics-of-redistribution/#comment-7068</guid>
		<description>@ Owen, I know the history of the SACP fairly well. And yes, it started out based on racial lines as you described. The point I was making - which seems to have been lost - is that there were more important factors leading to the rise of the Nats, then disgruntled communist turned nationalists. Anyway, perhaps more for another day. 

@ MidaFo - I am always cautious of cultural explanations of social phenomena. The Chinese story from a policy perspective fascinates me, and I am still learning about it. However, it would seem that egalitarian policies have provided a foundation for economic progress. But, there are of course problems even in China.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Owen, I know the history of the SACP fairly well. And yes, it started out based on racial lines as you described. The point I was making &#8211; which seems to have been lost &#8211; is that there were more important factors leading to the rise of the Nats, then disgruntled communist turned nationalists. Anyway, perhaps more for another day. </p>
<p>@ MidaFo &#8211; I am always cautious of cultural explanations of social phenomena. The Chinese story from a policy perspective fascinates me, and I am still learning about it. However, it would seem that egalitarian policies have provided a foundation for economic progress. But, there are of course problems even in China.</p>
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		<title>By: Owen</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/ebrahimkhalilhassen/2007/11/26/the-politics-of-redistribution/comment-page-1/#comment-7037</link>
		<dc:creator>Owen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 00:40:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/ebrahimkhalilhassen/2007/11/26/the-politics-of-redistribution/#comment-7037</guid>
		<description>Ebrahim, my referneces to Rio, India etc date back some 20 odd years so much will have changed since then considering the economic growth of all the countries mentioned. My point was that our poor are no worse off than other poor peoples and it has nothing to do with white culture as Midafo was alluding to.

Some online history of the SACP for your info. My understanding from other literature is that majority of those white communists left the SACP and joined with the nationalists. 

The history of the South African Communist Party (SACP), formed in 1921 as the Communist Party of South Africa (CPSA) and subsequently banned in 1950, has generated a very rich and fascinating literature. During the first phase of its existence, between 1921 and the early 1930s, the CPSA battled with the reality of being a largely white organisation that had to adapt its Marxism-Leninism to conditions in which the African majority, irrespective of class affiliation, were subjected to one of the most oppressive systems of settler colonial rule. Thus the CPSA supported the 1922 white miners&#039; strike whose main objective was the protection of the job reservation regime for white workers. The Communist International, the Comintern, intervened in the form of the famous 1928 &quot;Native Republic&quot; resolution which called upon the SACP to work with the nationalist movement for the establishment of the national democratic order. 

During the second phase, from the late 1930s to the outbreak of World War II, the CPSA underwent a strategic reorientation and was fully Africanised, at least in terms of its membership. The period 1931-35 was however one of the most difficult, as the CPSA had to survive Stalinisation efforts in the form of purges and expulsions, the organisation&#039;s membership dropping from about 3 000 in 1929 to below 300 in the mid-1930s. The first generation of African CPSA leaders emerged during this phase, beginning with Albert Nzula who became the first African general secretary of the organisation. Other notable African figures who emerged during this phase were Moses Kotane (who became general secretary in 1938), Edwin Mofutsanyane, and JB Marks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ebrahim, my referneces to Rio, India etc date back some 20 odd years so much will have changed since then considering the economic growth of all the countries mentioned. My point was that our poor are no worse off than other poor peoples and it has nothing to do with white culture as Midafo was alluding to.</p>
<p>Some online history of the SACP for your info. My understanding from other literature is that majority of those white communists left the SACP and joined with the nationalists. </p>
<p>The history of the South African Communist Party (SACP), formed in 1921 as the Communist Party of South Africa (CPSA) and subsequently banned in 1950, has generated a very rich and fascinating literature. During the first phase of its existence, between 1921 and the early 1930s, the CPSA battled with the reality of being a largely white organisation that had to adapt its Marxism-Leninism to conditions in which the African majority, irrespective of class affiliation, were subjected to one of the most oppressive systems of settler colonial rule. Thus the CPSA supported the 1922 white miners&#8217; strike whose main objective was the protection of the job reservation regime for white workers. The Communist International, the Comintern, intervened in the form of the famous 1928 &#8220;Native Republic&#8221; resolution which called upon the SACP to work with the nationalist movement for the establishment of the national democratic order. </p>
<p>During the second phase, from the late 1930s to the outbreak of World War II, the CPSA underwent a strategic reorientation and was fully Africanised, at least in terms of its membership. The period 1931-35 was however one of the most difficult, as the CPSA had to survive Stalinisation efforts in the form of purges and expulsions, the organisation&#8217;s membership dropping from about 3 000 in 1929 to below 300 in the mid-1930s. The first generation of African CPSA leaders emerged during this phase, beginning with Albert Nzula who became the first African general secretary of the organisation. Other notable African figures who emerged during this phase were Moses Kotane (who became general secretary in 1938), Edwin Mofutsanyane, and JB Marks.</p>
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		<title>By: MidaFo</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/ebrahimkhalilhassen/2007/11/26/the-politics-of-redistribution/comment-page-1/#comment-7034</link>
		<dc:creator>MidaFo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:27:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/ebrahimkhalilhassen/2007/11/26/the-politics-of-redistribution/#comment-7034</guid>
		<description>Owen I am in China. 

Over the last three years I have become increasingly convinced that much of the difficulty in the last century and more is closely associated with the previous white presence here, which presence can reasonably be summed up with the word piracy. Moreover the sophistication of Eastern culture, the gentle nature of interpersonal communication, the respect for the scholar, the tolerance and praise of differences, makes me think deeply about Western basics such as monotheism and our brand of individualism, which are beginning to make me feel curiously uncomfortable. Your confident assertions brought this to mind. 

It is relevant to say that there is somehow no poverty here in that those without position or money blame no one but themselves. Don&#039;t push me too hard on this. The most relevant word in my mind is somehow, so it is a mystery to me. I see grannies in the streets, little and old and wizened, pulling carts of scraps they find by grovelling in the dust on building sites and they are not ashamed, in fact they are respected even if most who do so desperately work to avoid such a fate. Then I hear from the smart and wealthy executive lady I consult with that her mother of 85 runs a clothes stall in the street market, every day of the week and on Chinese New Year (half the day)! And the sweet lady is deeply ashamed of this because  her neighbours may think that she is not looking after her mother, but mother refuses to stop. The money is saved.

Somehow again it seems that the answer lies in the fact that the Chinese are not Christian. Moreover they are not anti-Christian: they would happily put a crucifix in their temple if they did not think the the Christians would object. Please regard this as a puzzle I share with you. 

We have a lot to learn. If the Americans, with their &quot;virtue of selfishness&quot;, fail in their desire to queer the pitch, cause war between China and  Taiwan and cannot enslave Iraq to starve China of oil, then China is going to be the economic king of the world. They probably will be whatever the Americans do
 
From this vantage we Westerners look increasingly like brigands. It is becoming embarrassing to think that as a boy I used to believe that it was the Chinese in the China Sea who were the pirates! Who made me believe it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Owen I am in China. </p>
<p>Over the last three years I have become increasingly convinced that much of the difficulty in the last century and more is closely associated with the previous white presence here, which presence can reasonably be summed up with the word piracy. Moreover the sophistication of Eastern culture, the gentle nature of interpersonal communication, the respect for the scholar, the tolerance and praise of differences, makes me think deeply about Western basics such as monotheism and our brand of individualism, which are beginning to make me feel curiously uncomfortable. Your confident assertions brought this to mind. </p>
<p>It is relevant to say that there is somehow no poverty here in that those without position or money blame no one but themselves. Don&#8217;t push me too hard on this. The most relevant word in my mind is somehow, so it is a mystery to me. I see grannies in the streets, little and old and wizened, pulling carts of scraps they find by grovelling in the dust on building sites and they are not ashamed, in fact they are respected even if most who do so desperately work to avoid such a fate. Then I hear from the smart and wealthy executive lady I consult with that her mother of 85 runs a clothes stall in the street market, every day of the week and on Chinese New Year (half the day)! And the sweet lady is deeply ashamed of this because  her neighbours may think that she is not looking after her mother, but mother refuses to stop. The money is saved.</p>
<p>Somehow again it seems that the answer lies in the fact that the Chinese are not Christian. Moreover they are not anti-Christian: they would happily put a crucifix in their temple if they did not think the the Christians would object. Please regard this as a puzzle I share with you. </p>
<p>We have a lot to learn. If the Americans, with their &#8220;virtue of selfishness&#8221;, fail in their desire to queer the pitch, cause war between China and  Taiwan and cannot enslave Iraq to starve China of oil, then China is going to be the economic king of the world. They probably will be whatever the Americans do</p>
<p>From this vantage we Westerners look increasingly like brigands. It is becoming embarrassing to think that as a boy I used to believe that it was the Chinese in the China Sea who were the pirates! Who made me believe it?</p>
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		<title>By: Ebrahim-Khalil Hassen</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/ebrahimkhalilhassen/2007/11/26/the-politics-of-redistribution/comment-page-1/#comment-7003</link>
		<dc:creator>Ebrahim-Khalil Hassen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:51:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/ebrahimkhalilhassen/2007/11/26/the-politics-of-redistribution/#comment-7003</guid>
		<description>I promised to post some links for free data on local government socio-economic data. Online data on local government that is freely avilable can be found at 

Municipal Demarcations Board
http://www.demarcation.org.za/

South African Cities Network - for metro areas
http://www.sacities.net/

Community Profiles from the 2001 census can be ordered from Statistics South Africa

http://www.statssa.gov.za/census01/html/C2001CommProfile.asp</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I promised to post some links for free data on local government socio-economic data. Online data on local government that is freely avilable can be found at </p>
<p>Municipal Demarcations Board<br />
<a href="http://www.demarcation.org.za/" rel="nofollow">http://www.demarcation.org.za/</a></p>
<p>South African Cities Network &#8211; for metro areas<br />
<a href="http://www.sacities.net/" rel="nofollow">http://www.sacities.net/</a></p>
<p>Community Profiles from the 2001 census can be ordered from Statistics South Africa</p>
<p><a href="http://www.statssa.gov.za/census01/html/C2001CommProfile.asp" rel="nofollow">http://www.statssa.gov.za/census01/html/C2001CommProfile.asp</a></p>
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		<title>By: Ebrahim-Khalil Hassen</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/ebrahimkhalilhassen/2007/11/26/the-politics-of-redistribution/comment-page-1/#comment-6956</link>
		<dc:creator>Ebrahim-Khalil Hassen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:35:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/ebrahimkhalilhassen/2007/11/26/the-politics-of-redistribution/#comment-6956</guid>
		<description>@ Owen - Actually, India has a lower poverty rate than SA, measured as a percentage of total population. I have been to Rio, and have not seen multi-storey shacks next to hotels. The spatial aspects of Rio are fascinating, the favelas (slums) are on the hills, on the outskirts. From the beach till about four blocks into the city it is so posh. There is a clear spatial division in Rio between the rich and poor. 

Owen, I think you a strechting reality to argue that the Nats had there roots in the SACP. There was this thing called nationalism, and some fisticuffs with the Brits, that might be more important to explain the rise of the Nats. 

@ MidaFo and  Robert- just back from a presentation, and chatted to some informal traders. I think I am getting the point on the informal sector, more clearly. Thanks</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Owen &#8211; Actually, India has a lower poverty rate than SA, measured as a percentage of total population. I have been to Rio, and have not seen multi-storey shacks next to hotels. The spatial aspects of Rio are fascinating, the favelas (slums) are on the hills, on the outskirts. From the beach till about four blocks into the city it is so posh. There is a clear spatial division in Rio between the rich and poor. </p>
<p>Owen, I think you a strechting reality to argue that the Nats had there roots in the SACP. There was this thing called nationalism, and some fisticuffs with the Brits, that might be more important to explain the rise of the Nats. </p>
<p>@ MidaFo and  Robert- just back from a presentation, and chatted to some informal traders. I think I am getting the point on the informal sector, more clearly. Thanks</p>
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		<title>By: Owen</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/ebrahimkhalilhassen/2007/11/26/the-politics-of-redistribution/comment-page-1/#comment-6886</link>
		<dc:creator>Owen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:38:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/ebrahimkhalilhassen/2007/11/26/the-politics-of-redistribution/#comment-6886</guid>
		<description>Midafo, there are poor people in all parts of the world. Go visits india and china to see much worse poverty than what exists in SA and it has nothing to do with white culture. In Rio, Brazil they build multi storey shacks next to luxury hotels. The chinese sweat shops where poeple work, eat and sleep in the factory and the practice in india of breaking childrens limbs so that they can be better beggars are deplorable. In some ways it makes apartheid look like a picnic as our slums look quite respectable in comparison.

Rich and poor don&#039;t know skin color.

Can a government make a difference, yes they can. Will they, unlikely as self interest normally prevails.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Midafo, there are poor people in all parts of the world. Go visits india and china to see much worse poverty than what exists in SA and it has nothing to do with white culture. In Rio, Brazil they build multi storey shacks next to luxury hotels. The chinese sweat shops where poeple work, eat and sleep in the factory and the practice in india of breaking childrens limbs so that they can be better beggars are deplorable. In some ways it makes apartheid look like a picnic as our slums look quite respectable in comparison.</p>
<p>Rich and poor don&#8217;t know skin color.</p>
<p>Can a government make a difference, yes they can. Will they, unlikely as self interest normally prevails.</p>
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		<title>By: Owen</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/ebrahimkhalilhassen/2007/11/26/the-politics-of-redistribution/comment-page-1/#comment-6870</link>
		<dc:creator>Owen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:28:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/ebrahimkhalilhassen/2007/11/26/the-politics-of-redistribution/#comment-6870</guid>
		<description>Ebrahim-Khalil, Its a long time since I read up on this bit of history but around 1920 after the Bolshevik revolution in Russia the SACP was born. In its ranks were poor white afrikaners. Around that time there were the Foordsburg riots. Jan Smuts ordered the army in and some afrikaners were killed. Anyway after about 5 years the whites decided to seperate from the SACP as they wanted job reservation for whites, they joined / formed the Nats.

In the eighties an english friend of mine came to this country from working in Poland. I still think that he worked for British intelligence but he never admitted it and he now works in China. Anyway he maintained that the Nats ruled SA in much the same way as the communists ruled Poland.

The old Nats, other than skin color problems, had / have more in common with the ANC than the DA.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ebrahim-Khalil, Its a long time since I read up on this bit of history but around 1920 after the Bolshevik revolution in Russia the SACP was born. In its ranks were poor white afrikaners. Around that time there were the Foordsburg riots. Jan Smuts ordered the army in and some afrikaners were killed. Anyway after about 5 years the whites decided to seperate from the SACP as they wanted job reservation for whites, they joined / formed the Nats.</p>
<p>In the eighties an english friend of mine came to this country from working in Poland. I still think that he worked for British intelligence but he never admitted it and he now works in China. Anyway he maintained that the Nats ruled SA in much the same way as the communists ruled Poland.</p>
<p>The old Nats, other than skin color problems, had / have more in common with the ANC than the DA.</p>
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