Let me state unequivocally from the outset that I fully supported Israel’s operations in Gaza. I have no doubt whatever that these were both justified and necessary given more than three years of almost constant missile attacks against its citizens, that Israel acted throughout with commendable restraint and that Hamas, through its cowardly and despicable policy of basing its terrorist infrastructure in densely populated civilian areas, is morally responsible for each and every civilian casualty for which Israel was so widely and unjustly blamed.
Expressing such a view will not make me popular in a society where Israel’s “brutality” and the Palestinians’ perennial victimhood is taken as axiomatic — indeed, many people will, and do, hate me for them. That, I suppose, is their right, just as it my democratic right to hold and express opinions others do not like. What is not OK is that opposition to my kind of interpretation of the Middle East conflict should express itself as hatred directed against the local Jewish community (aside from the small fringe that has aligned itself with the Israel-bashers).
This is what has been surfacing more and more over the past few weeks. It has become a little frightening how often I have encountered propositions in the media and at public gatherings to the effect that Jews everywhere are collectively responsible for the “genocide” in Gaza and that unless they behave like the “good Jews” who have come out against Israel, they will become fair game as Muslims worldwide take revenge.
The dichotomy between “good” and “bad” Jews came out very strongly during last week’s Cosatu solidarity rally for Palestine in Lenasia. It also witnessed what might be the first instance of public Jew-baiting by a member of government in over half a century as Deputy Foreign Minister Fatima Hajaig informed a deliriously cheering crowd that America, as well as other Western countries, was in the grip of Jewish money power.
What the honorable FJ actually said was: “They in fact control [America]. No matter which government comes in to power, whether Republican or Democratic, whether Barack Obama or George Bush. The control of America, just like the control of most Western countries, is in the hands of Jewish money and if Jewish money controls their country then you cannot expect anything else”.
Comrade Fatima’s brazen invocation of the spectre of Jewish money exercising its malign behind-the-scenes influence in shaping world events was greeted with a particularly enthusiastic roar of appreciation by the audience. She even used the words “Jew” and “Jewish” rather than the code-word “Zionist”.
In addition to such revolting conspiracy theorising, various other speakers at the Lenasia rally made threatening statements against the local Jewish community.This included calls that anyone with Zionist sympathies be expelled from the country, that “Israeli” businesses be boycotted (a list of Jewish-owned businesses is in fact now doing the rounds within the Muslim community and further afield) and that action be taken against South African Jews who served in the Israeli military.
One presenter said: “The common enemy is making inroads in South Africa … the Zionists in South Africa must be kicked out of the shores of South Africa”. Another speaker praised “our Jewish brothers and sisters” who had come out against the Israel Defence Force, assuring them “there is a place in the world we are building in South Africa for you”. Those who had not done so, he warned, had “better watch out because the winds of change are blowing”.
Regarding local Jews allegedly serving in the IDF, another presenter shouted (again to rapturous and sustained applause): “We are going to become impimpis, we are going to become impimpis … the business that we are going to carry out with the Jews, with these Zionist entities. We are going to talk to them, were going to find out if their sons have gone to fight our brothers and sisters in Palestine and then we’ll say to them come and fight us at home”.
Other speakers included ANC Provincial Secretary Nazeem Adams and Eddie Makue, general secretary for South African Council of Churches. Makue denied that the fight against Israel and Zionism was anti-Semitic, saying that he and his fellow activists only wanted to bring their “Jewish brothers and sisters onto the right path”.
“This is a global struggle. We are inviting you to join us in it, otherwise you will be mowed down in the annals of history as people who refuse to support justice and peace” he said, as the crowd bellowed its approval.
All in all, it must have been very much reminiscent of a Nuremburg rally.
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116 Responses to “Middle East fallout is poisoning our society”
This speaks volumes about the culture of hysterical intolerance and bigotry that has gripped the ANC, Cosatu and their fellow travellers.
There is bitter irony in the fact that the ANC gets so excited about a conflict half a world away which has no direct effect on SA, yet sits on its hands and mutters platitudes about the humanitarian disaster happening across the Limpopo (while supporting Zanu and other vicious regimes such as in Burma).
The hypocrisy is sickening. Thank God I no longer live in SA.
It is astounding to me that we as South Africans can raise our voices in criticism of another country when our own situation is despicable. We have the highest levels of the most abominable criminality and yet we deem ourselves fit to have an opinion on another country. We have people in positions of power who strut around like peacocks but are completely vacuous. If we want to raise hell why don’t we do it for Aids sufferers, victims of crime, corruption, rape victims etc etc. It’s so easy to get on the collective bandwagon of condemnation because it affords us some attention. Jewish doctors have saved my life a few times due to severe illness and delivered all three of my children. Jewish attorneys have fought and won a very bitter custody battle on my behalf and restored my children to me. Jewish specialists saw my very young mother out of this world with much dignity and skill and often at the darkest moments they have been there. Decent in their endeavours and I do thank them most deeply. And will our condemnation of Israel make a difference? Do we really think after all the above fiascos and the tragedy of Zimbabwe the rest of the world thinks we have the moral authority to say a word? What a disgrace. Ignorance is indeed absolute bliss. And once again South Africans opening their loud, ignorant and ugly mouths to cause more damage and then when the consequences of our irresponsible behaviour is visited upon us in the form of lost jobs and lost doctors etc we revert to victimhood. Well I guess we should become comfortable with the role. If this is the way we behave we will be playing it for a long time.
I quite agree that the Jew-baiting and unfounded attacks on Israel in which some of the South Africa leaders indulge, is despicable. It does remind one of the rallies that Hitler and his henchmen held in Germany in the nineteen-thirties. What I find most disturbing is the fact that the South African government through the Department of Foreign Affairs seems to be spearheading this.
Why are you surprised? What makes you ever dream that Jews would have a happy home in South Africa once the ANC and Islam took power? I cannot believe that you walked around with your eyes shut and your ears closed all this time.
The writing was on the wall by 1994 when Mandela started accommodating the dregs of the world. Most were anti Israel. His and the ANC supporters of “freedom”
The old saying “you sleep with dogs and you get fleas, applies” The mindset was there all the time. Most like yourself refused to admit it.
History tells us that all that is required is the right climate and some support, which they have now.
The West lacks teeth due to their worries, so expect Africa and the rest to push the limits of “humanity to man”
With more than its fair share of Muslim MP’s and advisors supporting some anti Israel cause or other, within the ANC, should we not expect problems.
If the ANC could make Taiwan persona non-grata expect the same for other race/creed not Kow-towing to the ANC. It will also not help to Kowtow because we all know what happens then? The hand that feeds gets Bitten.
Of course, the ham-fisted populist rants at ANC rallies are stupid and despicable. However, the point under clumsy discussion by ANC flapmouths (the notion that ‘Jewish money’ controls American foreign policy) is not exactly controversial. The influence of pro-Israeli lobbying groups on US presidents is far from trivial, and in the US its alliance with Israel is seen as right and largely unquestionable (in the same way that US invasions are never actually invasions but liberation operations).
The equation of Jewish and Israeli identity is unjustified (as is the equation of Muslim and Palestinian identity) but would you disagree that most Israelis are Jews, and also that most Jews support Israel? A call for individual Jews to make clear their allegiances, given the recent, morally dubious acts of the ‘Jewish nation’, seems quite sensible to me.
Given the assumption that most Jews support Israel and that most Muslims support Palestine, perhaps it would help to canvas everyone else to see where ‘neutral’ opinion lies…
I am truly scared for my Family in SA. Israel is 10 times the inclusive democracy than South Africa will ever be.
I feel that it is time South African Jews left. We helped build up the economy, ad bring about social change. Some of the most active members of the struggle were Jewish,and at the same time supporters of ISrael.
The sad fact is that most of the people at that rally dont know where Israel is on the map, and how tiny it is in comparison to the rest of the Arab world. I once hiked from the see to Israels border with the West bank in 2 hours!!! thats 8km’s hardly defensible..
I will be proud when I finish my degree in counter-terrorism, and assume my place in the IDF, and defend my country and people against the islamo-fascist’s that are pervading every aspect of modern society, demanding the respect of islam, while disrespecting everyone else.
Am Yisrael Chei, Ad SOf Ha’ Olam
עמ ישראל חי עד סופ העולמ
Hamas has been poking a finger in the eye of Israel for many years (over 8000 rockets launched into Israel since 2005) and now they cry “fowl” when they have been given a bloody nose. Cowardly Hamas hides amongst civilians (including schools) to not only discourage Israeli retaliation but also make the world rise in condemnation of the civilian casualties when Israel does hit back. The selective morality of the world’s media in the lopsided craven reporting on ALL Israeli/Arab conflicts is despicable.
The threat against Israel is such that if they relaxed their vigilance for only one month they would be wiped off the face of the earth. God bless and strengthen Israel.
This is quite disgusting and speaks volumes about the presenters and attendees at the rally
Surely the most senior members of the Jewish community should be seeking audience with President Motlanthe to find out what the official Government policy is in terms of tolerating this type of behaviour by their representatives. Is it possible that Fatima Hajaig and Nazeem Adams are acting way outside their prescribed mandates. If so they should be dealt with
As for Makue, treat him with the contempt he clearly deserves…..where did he get his lines…”Mein Kampf”
anton kleinschmidt on January 19th, 2009 at 6:47 pm
@ Max: one could query why the Jews seem to call for anti-Semitism at any occasion.
Research the way Hitler was able to switch on the killing machine. Research why 60 years after WW2 and the holocaust many people shrug a shoulder when reminded of it. Research why Israel is not well loved in the Middle East.
Hatred does not fall out of the sky. It is a fungus, growing over time under the right conditions.
My observation is also that the antisemitism so rife in the tripartite alliance and a minority but very vocal and extremely self-serving section of our population has all the hallmarks of Nazism. The lack of tolerance is equally fascist, and for my part at least, they need to be fought vigorously. Regrettably, they flourish in an environment of ignorance (stupidity) and emotionalism, and their hypocrisy is without equal.
I am a non-Jewish South African who fully understands Israel’s actions and the justified paranoia of the Jewish people. I am so ashamed of the SA government, and fail to understand how the ANC always manages to appoint a Muslim to the post of deputy FM; there must be people available who come with less baggage and a more enlightened outlook. This woman only serves her sectarian interests.
For one thing, I would campaign for full sanctions against this government if they succeed in harming Israel or Jews in any particular way. And I can assure you that neither the ANC nor its Muslim cronies will have the wherewithall to withstand this.
In my opinion, Israel really restrainded herself in Gaza. For my part, she should have nuked those bastards. Nevertheless, its time that Islamic fundamentalists be taught a lesson - instead of ridiculing George Bush we should have shown more fortitude. At the end of the day, they and their supporters (especially here in SA) are only cowards who hide behind women,children, schools and hospitals.
I am not Jewish but I am shocked at the blatant old fashioned antisemitism on display. I had no idea what happened at the rally you refer to but I was deeply disturbed by something I saw on television the other night. A young member of the Jewish Board of Deputies was speaking to the media after a meeting with the President and was saying that he was fully South African. Although a small incident I found it very upsetting that a young South African felt he had to convince people of his South African credentials because he was Jewish. I mean, what on earth else was he? What is going on? Had he just been on the receiving end of some of the same sentiments you described on display at the rally? I find this all chilling
This is a very good article. Why is it that on the Jewish side, you find a small segment that question and truly disagree with Israel’s actions, but whom together with the majority (who support Israel’s right to defend itself)feel absolute compassion for the innocent Palestinian civilians caught up in an ugly war, but on the Palestinian/Muslim side you never hear of people that feel compassion for Jewish civilians, or for Israel’s right to exist?
What I am interested in is a long lasting solution. The easy accusations and counter accusations are smoke screens and will not bear intense scrutiny. And the atrocities are just that; and there can be no justification for them whatsoever.
There’s a lot that has to be taken into consideration in order that people can get to grips with the real issues. The following article raises a number of challenges that need to be looked into in order that a solution can be found.
Does Israel really want a solution? If so, what are the detailed proposals? And, will it do what de Klerk and the Nats did in South Africa? Will it lock itself into a process from which it will only emerge when consensus is reached?
Or will it continue to create conditions that are totally intolerable for the people in Gaza and then inflict violence on them for resisting?
Thankfully we are not in the conflict but at the same time we cannot be uninvolved in respect of finding a solution.
Sadly we are not speaking solution and clearly we are not shunning the propoganda meant to suck us in.
Anyone who does not condemn atrocities condemns himself. Whether in the Torah or in the Quraan, wrong is wrong with no shades in between.
So, if we are focussed on a solution we can help those who are mired in the conflict in the Middle East. If, however, we engage in rhetoric we merely consent to the continuation of mindless and horrific violence. And irrespective of who does what to whom, atrocities will spawn atrocities. War makes good people into evil people.
Let me state that I disagree with David - n am sickened by theway Israel has “defended” itself and has acted quite unilaterally, with the tacit appropval of the Bush administration. (Bush issoon out, yay) BUT I am totally sicrened by the venemous anti-Semitic comments (which were the breeding ground for the persecution of Jewish people in the 20’s and 30’s. I am also perturbed by the strident lack of any decorum and objectivity by the deputy miiuster (on purpose I refuse to use capital letters for most SA ministers and deputies. Why bash a community and keep oh so quiet about Zimbabwe, the resurgence of the Taliban and persecution of women under Sharia law,the execuition of gays in some midde eastern countries, the way “insurgents” and Tibetan supporters are treated in China. All of these events reflect issues which go against the SA constitution, but it seems easy to bash the Jewish comminuity, rather than be vocal about other abuses close to home.
I’m not a supporter of Hamas, or suicide bombers either.
Part of a decent democracy means that I can disagree with David Saks’ views but also FH and the lack of speaking out against other injustices in other parts of the world. And I get very anxious when anti-Semitic or homophobic comments can pass, but beware of Isamaphobia and racism at your peril. Double standards?
the local South African Muslim community needs to grow up. its unacceptable to threaten the Jewish community for the acts of Israel and local Muslim leadership need to get off their high horses and do something about this pathetic behaviour.
However, at the same time, I am astounded that you can sit on your high horse and be so imaginative in comparing this protest march to a Nazi rally (which I assume you never attended in the 1930s, or..?) when you cannot open your eyes and see what is taking place in Israel/Palestine over the last decades and wonder honestly to yourself if what is going on there is at the very least humane or normal by any standards…? Seriously, how can such a war ever be supported? No need to imagine, no need to open a history book. It is plain to see.
Again, you are right that you’re allowed to have your own view, and that threats to you or the Jewish community is pathetic and uncivilized. But don’t be shocked one day when Israel is tried for crimes against humanity and its supporters are told they were just as humourless and wrong as the Nazis.
As a Jewish person who does NOT support the Gaza invasion, I have been physically and verbally assaulted for having my so called “anti-jewish” views. This by jewish “friends”, right here in South Africa.
I’m neither a supporter of the ANC nor Cosatu and hold no brief for them. While deputy minister Hajaig’s statements may be crass, they do contain a kernel of truth. In my own country – the United States – the “Israel Lobby” (for lack of a better term) has cajoled our politicians into fighting a war for Israel in Iraq. Jewish dominance of the U.S. media has prevented honest reporting on Israel’s actions in the Middle East – the Jewish state’s atrocities in Gaza being a current example. See http://www.ifamericansknew.org/ for information on the pro-Zionist bias of the U.S. media.
People of goodwill the world over – including South Africa – are right to oppose Israel’s actions, including calling for a boycott of Israeli goods. Moreover, Jews with dual loyalties, such as South African Jews going off to fight in the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) should be made to chose. Be loyal South Africans or move to Israel.
“I have no doubt whatever that these were both justified and necessary given more than three years of almost constant missile attacks against its citizens,”
On 17th June 2008 Hamas and Israel agreed to a truce, whereby Hamas would stop firing rockets into Israel and Israel would stop attacking Hamas and lift the 2.5 year blockade on Gaza.
The number of rockets fired into Israel dropped by 98%, none were fired by Hamas. Israel did not lift the blockade and on 4th November 2008 they attacked and killed 6/7 Hamas fighters in Gaza.
Israel thus broke the truce and Hamas resumed their attacks on Israel.
The facts show that your basic premise is incorrect.
“Comrade Fatima’s brazen invocation of the spectre of Jewish money exercising its malign behind-the-scenes influence in shaping world events was greeted with a particularly enthusiastic roar of appreciation by the audience.”
Ehud Olmert bragged about his ability to influence Washington:-
But David, have you not realised by now that you live in enemy territory? Its merely been masked by the fact that they tend to nail you first as whites and then as Jews.
I do not understand how Mr Saks can complain about the asymmetric nature of the discourse concerning the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, whilst at the same time wholeheartedly supporting Israel’s actions, and the asymmetric nature of the attacks on Gaza itself.
His voice in the face of overwhelming condemnation by SA, is the military equivalent of a Palestinian rocket in the face of the overwhelming military onslaught and bombardment of Israel.
I don’t see how Mr Saks can complain about disproportionate and unfair treatment?
There is no such thing as “Jewish Money”. Because the Jews were banned from owning land in Muslim and Christian countries they developed professions, including banking. It is their clients money. They raised the money for Britain to pay their armies in the Napoleonic Wars, and both World Wars. And the reason they could raise the money - was because the rich trust them.
There is no such thing as “World Bank” money eithet. All moneies loaned to the World Bank comes from donors.A similar misconception.
Mubabe is the typical black dictator who could not understand the concept of money. Look at the Zim dollar now. When Mugabe took over the Zim dollar was stronger than the pound.
Boycotting Jewish Businesses
When I lived in Cape Town I used to buy from a Muslim supermarket accoss the road. Great bread rolls. There was a literature stand of Korans at the door, and piped words (not music) all the time. One day I actually listened - and was horrified at the extremist anti-Jesus, anti-Christian message actually being piped. Actually little mention of Jews - it was the Christians they were attacking. I never bought there again!
Unless the Muslims come down from their lofty pedestal and actually get their hands dirty by serving the world, then no-one will ever respect them.
The Jews have done this and much more. Look now how the world respects them.
We get brainwashed into believing that Islam is a religion of peace, but no other religion is allowed to exist in its entirety in any of the Muslim dominated countries. Hindu’s, Buddhists, Christians, Jews, are all put to death for living in a religion that is not Islam.
You just have to read their Koran (unabridged) to see what they do to people who refuse to convert to Islam.
How is Fatima Hajaig not fired on the spot? The ANC is becomming more and more like Zanu PF.
Thank you for having the courage to voice an opinion that faces such violent opposition here. It was said that the holocaust wouldn’t have happened if good people had had the courage to speak up - thank you for speaking up!
David Saks makes a factual mistake - The Gauteng Provincial Secretary for the ANC is not Nazim Adam, but David Makhura. Suprising that a South African involved in public discourse, and leading a large religious organisation, could make such a rudimentary mistake. I will however inform Nazim of his promotion And David Makhura to vacate office (Pictures the South African Jewish Board of Deputies going to Walter Sisulu House, and asking to meet with the Provincial Secretary Nazim Adam
Indeed Nazim Adam and David Makhura both spoke, and provided a picture of young leaders willing and able to lead to wide and diverse coalition.
But, I undertand your need to reduce a broad coalition - which is, non racial, multi ideological, across class and gender identities - as simply Jewish bashing. I understand that because a broad coalition speaking the truth to power is something you would not like. But, get use to it, this coalition is here to stay. And it si not built on hate, but rather on the fighting oppression.
As you may have guessed, I was at the rally you described. Some observations.
Firstly, it was a solidarity rally organised by multiple groups. COSATU was of course present, vocal, and leading (as it did during apartheid) the struggle against oppression. But, it should not be described as a COSATU rally - this was a solidarity rally.
Second, I left with a very different feeling from your commentary on the meeting. I am assuming that you listened on the radio, and did not attend. For your information, there was a wide spectrum of organisations represented. The organisations represented on the podium and in the audience were diverse in terms of ideology, religions, objectives etc. A common thread is that these organisations were at the fore front of opposing apartheid.
Speaker after speaker, emphasised the need for both the Lenasia community to support all struggles against oppression (especially Zimbabwe),and for the struggle of the Palestinians to be seen as a struggle against oppression.
I do not remember the Deputy Minister making the statements you suggested, but if she did, it would outside of the spirit of the meeting, as I experienced it. In fact, I would not associate myself with such statements. Now I will wait for your much anticapated article on the anti-Arab, anti-Muslim perspective prevalent in some sections of the Jewish community.
Finally, I think the best reference to Jewish history was that the Palestinian freedom fighters, have much in common with the brave Jews who fought the Nazi oppression in the Warsaw ghetto. I think Salim Vally - one of the speakers - said that.
The bleating sound of zionists claiming the moral high ground makes me wanna scream… for goodness sake emigrate already. To any non - white person in this country, whats happening in occupied palestine is obvious. We know what apartheid is. We experienced it in every way, everyday, for decades in this country. The sense of daily humiliation at the hands of oppressors is something every black person in this country will never forget. Its a stain on the soul of our nation. And so, when our government and leaders see images of oppression and ethnic cleansing in palestine, they call it out for what it is: apartheid v2.0. We will never forget how Israel tested nuclear weapons with the apartheid national party government in antarctica. We shall also never forget the support Yasser Arafat and the people of Palestine gave to SA, at a time when the western world had labelled Mandela a’terrorist’. At the end of the day, if it looks, quacks and acts like a duck, its a duck. Israel is an illegitimate state built on the mass murder of palestinians. Theres really nothing difficult to understand there. No room for argument or discussion. Israel as an apartheid state is simply not sustainable. The whole world (besides the US and western europe) understands this. Freedom will come to the palestinians no doubt. Its simply a matter of time. But at what cost to the israelis?
“For my part, she should have nuked those bastards.”
Kind of negates any meaningful points you may have made. Is this just cheap talk or is blind loyalty to Israel so ingrained that you would support them no matter what..? Would be interested to know what Israel would have to do before losing certain people’s full suppport.
Am also curious on a point of history -those that support Israel no matter what - do you believe that Israel’s support of the apartheid government was all good and fair?
What is despicable is the racism that is contained in this blog! Indian and Arab South Africans launched attacks on Jews at the rally and here we have people hurling insults at blacks of African descent when infact very few of them have attended the rally and even fewer spoke against Israel!
As a Jewish woman from Poland who is married to a black South African, I am DISGUSTED at the level of racist bigotry here. People will look for any opportunity to bash blacks! What do you mean by blacks being “typically stupid”?
My very intelligent black husband fully supports and regards as courageous the actions taken by Israel to defend itself. The correspondents in this blog should not paint all blacks with the same brush!
Where is your sense of justice? Why should the Jews share the one small state they have with Muslims who have vowed to kill them, and have been doing so for 60 years? There are 22 Muslim states already. What rights do Jews have in them? Or Christians for that matter?
In the Koran it says that God created many nations, because that was what He wanted. He could have created just one, but did not. Then He sant his prophets out to every nation.
If He wanted many nations, maybe He also wanted many religions? Maybe His message is too diverse for only one?
The rantings at the Cosatu solidarity rally for Palestine in Lenasia were to be expected - similar happenings are taking place in the rest of the world. Read http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles-new/?p=639
The western world has lost its moral backbone – always opting for the easiest and safest way out of any tricky situation. The decisions made by politicians and other leaders are being driven from the bottom upwards as they see which way the masses are leaning towards and then hurring up to lead them in that direction. To coin a phrase the west is sleepwalking to its own destruction. There is no right or wrong anymore – compromise is the new ok. We are, unfortunately, living in very exciting times – your enemy may be living right next door to you!
Thank goodness Grant bothered to rebut the atrocious ‘points’ made by the overzealous supporters of Israel. The abysmal credibility of most of these comments merely proves the truth of the heading of Saks’s article. As Kay rightly says, irrational hatred and brainwashing flow both ways, so there’s no point arguing about that. At least two reasonable and fruitful points of discussion present themselves:
1 - Compassion for all harmed by this conflict, commensurate with an explicit wish for a permanent ceasefire. I think we can all agree on this: no matter who is at fault, more fighting will help no-one. Therefore, peace now.
2 - Uncovering facts and deconstructing mainstream discourse. Is it justifiable to represent Israel as having acted in self-defence, given its vastly superior military might and the fact that probably 99% of casualties were Palestinian? Did Israel first break a ceasefire agreement with Hamas? Did it use white phosophorus, as reported by neutral observers? Is it true that about one-third of the dead in Gaza are children? Why is this? Has Israel banned some political parties at home? Is it a true democracy? And can we please stop using clumsy generalisations involving the categories of ‘Jews’ and ‘Muslims’, and talk instead of Israelis, Palestinians, Israeli supporters, etc?
Also: how can Hamas be pacified? Is forced pacification really viable? Did Hamas offer to negotiate? Did Israel? Why do they not negotiate? Why did this attack take place and cease just before Bush left office?
after a really bad spell of religious persecution, a bunch of people drop out of the sky in an unnamed region from europe and say that their imaginary friend gives them the right to live there and that the other people living there are inferior and have to give way for them. with the help of the british and [much later] the support of the americans, they maintain a parallel separate-and-uneuqal society which has them on top. they then continually say “but these people can’t be trusted because of [racial/religious] reasons and they should just be kept in these areas, away from us”.
the people kept away in those areas seethed, plotted to blow up things in these europeanized areas, and often did so, leading to wholly disproportionate retribution, leading the europeanized folks to say “see, we told you they’re savages, we need to blow them up until they learn not to bother civilized folk”.
tell me something that i’m missing. because i’m failing to see the difference between the palestine situation today and south africa under the nats. *this* is what the anc and alliance partners are pointing out, and while the exact wording may not be entirely warm and cuddly, they do have a point.
people who know me know that i think the anc are a bunch of idiotic asses, but even a broken clock is right twice a day, and this is one of those times.
Emotive and sad discourse altogether here. Much more emotion being unleashed than there should be. Sa is in peril and its people cut adrift from leadership. So many debates and issues of importance to place above this one.
A few deep breaths and some of that yoga which is being practised in the prisons might help everyone. The cycle of violence in the distant corner of the Med which has been going on since Roman times still does not match our daily kill rate from a number of social ills- A kill rate that requires social organisation practicing democracy, improving peoples lives and tolerance in relation to South African issues among and between South African peoples. Enough already! Our voices are lost in the cacophony of the world debates no one is really listening- Good news from South Africa where everybody got together and whittled down the various forms of kill rate from murder to road accidents and all other sources of mayhem we beat all comers at statistically would be a more constructive social discourse. South African views on the Middle East-not too important really-suspect nobody is listening.
As I understand it the roots of Palestinian attacks on Israel lie in the fact that the majority of the people who live in Gaza are the people, and their descendants, who were pushed out of Israel at the time of its formation. Nothing has been done by Israel, in the years since its formation, to right this injustice and therefore it is not at all surprising that Hamas attacks Israel.
That a response to the initial injustice is needed I have absolutely no doubt but firing rockets into Israel is only committing further wrongs and is thus not a useful response. It also gives
Israel, and other entities from states to individuals, a justfication for the commission by Israel of further injustices on the Palestinians.
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on January 20th, 2009 at 9:59 pm
@Grant
“Would be interested to know what Israel would have to do before losing certain people’s full suppport.”
What is it that Israel is doing that is so despicable?
Did Israel really support the apartheid government? More than others? And was the apartheid government really much worse than any of the multitude of African governments including the current direction taken by the oafs in the ANC?
And as far as “nuking” is concerned; I’m glad I don’t have to make the decision. But guess whose trying hardest to nuke?
To Grant…
Those parties were banned for campaigning on the basis of ISrael’s destruction and for helping to fund HAMAS. Actually the leader of the bloc, went to Syria and lebanon, to countries still at war with Israel, which is against the law..
The first party to be banned in Israel was Kach… a right wing JEwish extremist party that advocated killing palestinians.. It was banned in the 80’s
These parties are only banned because they call for the destruction of the State of Israel, and have financial links to terrorist groups.
Isnt the AWB a banned organization in SOuth Africa???
Anyway come speak to my Arab friends at University, and they will tell you exactly what they think about these banned parties. a recent survey showed that given the chance 80% of ISraeli Arabs ( those who didnt run away in 1948 and contributed to the state,) Would maintain Israeli citizenship instead of palestinian when the palestinian state is eventually established. also around 55% wanted to serve in the Israeli army or in other social services after high school… a plan is currently being evaluated to try and implement more Arabs into the IDF ( yes we do have Arab soldiers, some of them the best Reconnaissance units in the army contain disproportinately large amounts of Arab ISraeli’s )
My thanks to those who have responded sharing their abhorrence of some of the unacceptable things that have been said about the SA Jewish community as a result of the Gaza affair. There are three specific claims made by certain other contributors that I would like to address, for the record:
Ebrahim-Khail Hassen refers to Salim Vally’s comparison of the Gaza war with the Jewish Warsaw Ghetto Uprising against the Nazis. The comparison is palpably false, indeed slanderous. In the latter case, tens of thousands of Jews were herded into the Warsaw Ghetto preliminary to their being deported and murdered en masse. This was not because they had dispatched hundreds of suicide bombers to murder German civilians or fired thousands of missiles at German population centres, but simply because they were Jews. The actual uprising saw the Nazi forces obliterate virtually the entire Ghetto population – no compunction here about trying to minimize civilian casualties as Israel did, despite the fact that Hamas fighters were brazenly using non-combatants as human shields. And did the Nazis combine their offensive with allowing many tons of humanitarian aid to reach the Ghetto residents, as Israel did in Gaza? There is absolutely no basis for comprison.
In response to Grant, who claims that because a certain unnamed Arab party has been prohibited from running in the next Israeli elections, in fact there are three Arab political parties (Hadash, Balad and United Arab List-Arab Renewal) who are already represented in the Knesset (Parliament). Arabs have held key positions in other Israeli government sectors, serving as deputy ministers, judges, diplomats and ambassadors in the Foreign Service. Presumably the above-mentioned Arab party was banned because its platform supports terrorism (at least one Jewish party is similarly banned because of its racist anti-Arab policies). Grant should learn the facts before wading into the debate.
Finally, Oliver Lewis believes it to be a fact that the Second Gulf War was the result of Jewish pressure on the American government. But hold on a minute: The vast majority of American Jews have voted for the Democrats in the last six presidential elections, between 77% and 85% in fact. George W Bush is a Republican. Certainly, prominent Jewish individuals within the Bush administration were influential in the decision to go to war, but they were not the only ones responsible by any means. Depicting the war as Jewish-inspired therefore merely echoes the racist conspiracy-theorizing of Fatima Hajaig.
Israel was very sparcely populated in 1948, and some “Palestinians” who were there were newcomers themselves. There has been a vast amount of Muslim funded propaganda on this subject for over 60 years.
The big difference between the new-Jihadist extremists and both the Jewish and Christian religions is that they believe that only a Muslim State under Sharia law is valid ANYWHERE. Israel is just the tip of the iceberg.
This is NOT historic Islam at all, which was very tolerant of other faiths.
David Brown - well said. This reminds me of the Nats who distracted everyday SA in the 70’s and 80’s with tales of mystery and imagination from elsewhere on the globe.
The Middle East argument is sadly Monty Python like; “yes you did, no you didn’t” from some of the most intransigent people imaginable. Zim and Somalia have more chance of being solved.
At your good old rooting for the World Bank again? What other of your worn out theories are you going to float this time round.
Pity you met Muslims in Cape Town who played anti-Jesus music, but then you would, damn terrorists behind every BUSH hey.
I have met many moderate Muslims, Christians and Jews, and then I have heard of some nutters from all three groups who spread misinformation and hatred.
We just need to keep in mind that in 1947 Jews owned 2.5% of Palestine that became Israel.
Then from 1948 to 1967 Jews owned 78% of Israel and Arabs 22%.
By 2006 87% of land belongs to Israel and 13% to Arabs.
Would you not be a little peeved if those naughty Cape Town Muslims that played anti-Jesus music came in and took over 87% of your property? Maybe you would even declare a holy war? Play some loud reborn Christian music right in their ears, that will show them!!!
I think if US President Barack Obama lives by his words in his inaguration speech “To the Muslim world, we seek a new way forward, based on mutual interest and mutual respect. … ” we could make progress.
One final question, why did you leave a message for Khadija (Khadija Sharife I assume) on David Saks blog?
Looks a bit suspect to me.
I have asked you before but you never reply, do you blog for vested interests?
“Israel was very sparcely populated in 1948, and some “Palestinians” who were there were newcomers themselves.”
THANK YOU for further cementing the similarities between what is going on in the region and the apartheid regime. even you, miss “i were but a wee lass bouncing on my mother’s knee when the progressive party was created” constantly bring up the “but there were only san in what is now south africa when the white people arrived”.
i really don’t know how the strong pro-israeli south africans actually sleep at night. or was apartheid-era education so forceful in making people see only what the government wanted you to see that the similarities don’t really exist? i don’t get it.
[btw, the warsaw ghetto comparisons aren’t quite right. however south african history is almost a near-perfect overlap, right down to the whole “keeping outside media from observing” bit. like i said, the anc actually sees this, as do many people who have, oh, you know, any sense of a clue for history. the willful ignorance here is really stunning.]
The big difference between the new-Jihadist extremists and both the Jewish and Christian religions is that they believe that only a Muslim State under Sharia law is valid ANYWHERE. Israel is just the tip of the iceberg
every wave of extreme fundamentalist religion, with one exception i’m not going to name [this would be one of the jewish political not allowed to have a voice in the knesset], has its strongest base of adherents in grinding poverty, deprivation, and an overall lack of hope for the future.
also, most of the world’s muslims live in only six countries. in five of them it is not a crime to say/do anti-islamic things per se, although the perpetrators of such things would probably be arrested for “inciting a riot”. [and, really, in india, it’s pretty close to *legal* to do anti-islamic stuff.]
“In response to Grant, who claims that because a certain unnamed Arab party has been prohibited from running in the next Israeli elections, in fact there are three Arab political parties (Hadash, Balad and United Arab List-Arab Renewal) who are already represented in the Knesset (Parliament). Arabs have held key positions in other Israeli government sectors, serving as deputy ministers, judges, diplomats and ambassadors in the Foreign Service. Presumably the above-mentioned Arab party was banned because its platform supports terrorism (at least one Jewish party is similarly banned because of its racist anti-Arab policies). Grant should learn the facts before wading into the debate.”
Thanks for the reply David - the two banned parties are in fact the United Arab List and Balad.
“The two parties are the only exclusively Arab blocs in the Israeli Knesset, however the decision does not affect Arabs in predominantly Jewish parties or the communist party.
Together they hold seven of the 120 parliamentary seats”
As to my original post I never said that arabs where excluded from Israeli politics, go over my response to Neil - I was merely pointing out that Isreal has in the past banned political parties. Whether the parties are jewish or arab makes no difference at all - I gave the example of the arab parties because it happened recently.
Your example of the Jewish party being banned reinforces my point - If a country bans political parties because they are extremist, is it a true democracy? I thought the idea of democracy was to tolerate views that you might vehemently disagree with, not simply banning those parties that might conform to a narrow definition of being moderate.
My point was made in direct response to Neil where he cited Israel as
“… 10 times the inclusive democracy than South Africa will ever be”
Last time I checked there weren’t any banned political parties in South Africa.
See my response to David about the banning of political parties. On a related note in response to your comment quoted below..
“These parties are only banned because they call for the destruction of the State of Israel, and have financial links to terrorist groups.
Isnt the AWB a banned organization in SOuth Africa???”
Nope, the AWB managed to implode quite nicely without anyone else’s help - they drifted into obscurity after their leader was put in jail for assault. I have discovered that they have recently reformed in 2008, whether they will participate in the next elections is not yet clear, however they are not banned and as far as I am aware there are no banned political parties in South Africa (unless someone has evidence to the contrary).
“So far, 1,010 Palestinians have been killed, among them 315 children and 95 women”
If this doesn’t fit your definition of despicable then I don’t know what will. Considering your nuke comment I imagine you think they haven’t killed enough innocent people yet.
“Did Israel really support the apartheid government? More than others?”
Yes, see below, after 1973 Israel and apartheid South Africa had very close ties.
And was the apartheid government really much worse than any of the multitude of African governments including the current direction taken by the oafs in the ANC?
Was the apartheid government worse than the collection of dictators that Africa has at any one time? Probably not worse, probably not much better either..
It seems to be a common response when Israel is criticised, the immediate defence that other countries in the Middle East are so much worse than Israel. For the most part I agree, middle eastern countries in general have an appalling record of human rights abuses, however does this make the current military excesses of Israel any less wrong?
You can only have “no doubt whatever” that Israel’s brutality is “both justified and necessary” if you close your mind to reality.
You cite “more than three years of almost constant (read this carefully to realise your bias: “almost constant” - count the number and tonnage of bombs Israel has thrown vs Hamas’) missile attacks. This against a decades-long occupation of Palestinian land and an even longer policy of starvation and humiliation. Are you saying Jews would meekly accept the same fate?
You say “Israel acted throughout with commendable restraint” - read that honestly and say to yourself that were they Jewish babies and women and children killed that you would say the same? Firing a missile into a house is “commendable restraint”? You have lost all your humanity!
You say Hamas was “cowardly and despicable” for basing its terrorist infrastructure in densely populated civilian areas. That is a despicable comment when you KNOW they are trapped in that very small area BY ISRAEL!
Shame on you. Shame on Israel. Shame on all of us who look on and tolerate this murderous crime against humanity.
By the way, Israel supplied apartheid South Africa with rifles (the Galil is the R-4), warships (the Reshef is the Minister-class) and aircraft (the Kfir is the Cheetah) as well as intermediate range ballistic missiles (we tested the Jericho for them).
Israel was apartheid’s biggest supporter in the world, and I guess they learned quite a lot while they were supporting it.
Your post is laced with the kind of hysteria and emotionalism that renders rational debate on this subject all but impossible.
Are you saying that the fact that Hamas is based in a very small densely populated area somehow gives them the right to launch continual attacks against Israeli civilians with impunity.
And if Jews were guilty of continually firing missiles at their neighbors resulting in Jewish babies being killed in retaliation, I would reserve my outrage for those who fired the missiles in the first place. They are responsible, not the victims of their aggression, and that is the case with the Palestinian leadership
“And if Jews were guilty of continually firing missiles at their neighbors resulting in Jewish babies being killed in retaliation, I would reserve my outrage for those who fired the missiles in the first place. They are responsible, not the victims of their aggression, and that is the case with the Palestinian leadership”
You can’t be serious? By your rationale, if someone living in my house fired a gun at my next door neighbour, said neighbour would be fully justified in blowing up my entire house and any causualties would be the fault of the person who fired the gun. Surely there must be some concept of a proportional response?
David, do you partition any blame at all to Israel for civilian deaths? You don’t think that levelling buildings from the air might not be the best way to deal with individual terrorists hiding amongst the general population. Not even the apartheid government could come up with a reason to bomb the townships to root out terrorism.
dave, you really need to read the *second* of those two articles put up by grant. also note that it was written three years ago.
also note that people have been making comparisons between the israel/palestine situation and apartheid south africa almost from the word go.
now if you wish to be/remain willfully ignorant, then that’s fine. the nats only came to the table with the anc because they were starved of cash. seriously. it wasn’t the sanctions that did them in; it was the “divestment”. [the results of that very divestment, by the way, are the reason that south african banks haven’t been as affected by the current “global financial crisis” as those in most other english-speaking countries.]
both israel and the palestinians have allies with deep, deep — almost interminably deep — pockets. this is more of the problem than any religious or racial situation, as neither side’s supporters are going to run out of cash any time soon.
“They are responsible, not the victims of their aggression, and that is the case with the Palestinian leadership”
Interesting. I must refine my internal definition of the word ‘aggression’.
This is a chicken-and-egg situation. Surely you realise this? Who fired the first missile? Who hit who first? It’s like a schoolyard fight gone on for generations, with lots of random casualties for miles around. You can’t talk about aggression from only one side.
So my revision? How about: Aggression - periodical, somewhat isolated though continuing, actions over a long period of time which cause some damage, including possible civilian casualties.
Justified defence - occasional outbursts of extreme violence, resulting in 10-100x the number of civilian casualties of ‘aggression’; substantial destruction of property, etc.
The problem is that this is how it looks to many outsiders. For all Israel’s tiny size geographically, it has a pretty impressive military machine, particularly when used against the even smaller territories of the Palestinians. It just looks like unjustified force; and the timing of it also looks enormously suspect.
These problems cannot be addressed by finger-pointing. The apartheid analogy is apt too in that there will only be even a temporary solution when there is a real impetus to start real negotiation,s as opposed to this pathetic fannying about of pretend discussions that happens now and again.
As for the SA government’s statements, ideologically we know what side they have always been on. This should be no surprise. The more left-wing amongst us tend to side with the Palestinians. Where they come unstuck is in vitriolically attacking a nation that in fact has relatively little relevance to them, whilst still remaining bovine in their approach to the northern dictator.
Why don’t you do some research (easy using internet) before writing such garbage?
“no other religion is allowed to exist in its entirety in any of the Muslim dominated countries.”
The word “any” above means “not one”.
In Lebanon and Jordan, Christians comprise 39% and 6% of the respective populations.
“Picture a modern city with 28 synagogues, 18 kosher butcher shops, Jewish day schools and a bustling Jewish community of 4,000. Now imagine that city lies in the heart of a Muslim Arab nation.” This is Casablanca, Morocco.
The Jewish person relating this story experienced some anti-Semitism in Morocco, then went to the UK where he experienced far worse anti-Semitism, and he then returned to the land of his birth, Morocco.
About 25 000 Jewish people live in Iran (Muslim, but not an Arab country), and they too have synagogues, kosher butcheries etc and have no intention of leaving Iran.
Grant most of your posts have been sensible. But bliksem man, you have a neighbour who is paranoid about his existence and armed to the teeth. You are sitting on your stoep with your family and you pop off a shot at his son who is playing near the contested boundary fence, what’s going to happen?
You, and some of your family, are going to die to defend the principal of proportional response. Common sense and a cool head should prevail.
You pose three questions that I would like to answer:
1) If the person firing at me from your house was doing so with your knowledge and without any attempt on your part to stop him, then yes, I would be justified in taking whatever action I deemed necessary to stop him, even if it puts you at risk. Hamas in Gaza were elected by a two-thirds majority in the 2006 elections.
Even in a case where you were unable to stop the guy from firing, I would not be obliged to sit back and wait to be killed just because retaliation will put an innocent person (you) at risk. I should obviously take as much care as reasonably possible not to hit you, but if I do, then it is the original gunman is culpable, not just for trying to kill me but for endangering your life in the course of doing so. Related to the Gaza issue, Hamas is therefore the guilty party, not just for the Israeli casualties, but for the Palestinian civilian casualties as well.
2) You refer to “individual [Palestinian] terrorists hiding amongst the general population”. This seriously misrepresents the true extent of Hamas’ military capacity. In fact, within the civilian population (including in mosques, schools, public buildings etc), Hamas had established an enormous network of arms caches, rocket launching sites and munititons factories, tunnels for communications and smuggling purposes and fortified positions. It was these wholly legitimate military targets that Israel attacked. Given their – deliberate – proximity to civilian areas, casualties amongst the latter were inevitable.
3) Finally you write: “Not even the apartheid government could come up with a reason to bomb the townships to root out terrorism”. In reply to this, we both know that MK operatives were not firing thousands of missiles from Soweto and Alex at white residential suburbs. One can only imagine what the reaction of the all-powerful white-ruled state would have been had they done so. I have to ask why so many people, even intelligent ones, persist in these forced and demonstrably false analogies with Apartheid SA?
OLDFOX
Please don’t try to deny the reality of religious intolerance in Muslim countries. True, Morocco is an exception, but Iran has an appalling record in that regard.
Amongst other things, members of non-Muslim minorities in Iran cannot hold senior government or military positions, face restrictions in employment, education, and property ownership and are barred from election to representative bodies. The
350 000-strong Bahá’í community in particular has been subjected to constant religious persecution. This has worsened since the establishment of an Islamic Republic in 1979. Tens of thousands of Bahá’í have been deprived of jobs, pensions, businesses, and educational opportunities (such as being banned from attending public and private universities). National Bahá’í administrative structures were likewise banned and Bahá’í holy places, shrines, and cemeteries were confiscated, vandalized, or destroyed. In addition, more than 200 Bahá’ís were killed and hundreds more imprisoned after 1979.
Then there is the case of Saudi Arabia where:
• Only Muslims can acquire citizenship
• Non-Muslims cannot serve in the judiciary or as members of government.
• The public practice of non-Muslim religions is prohibited (even when worshipping in private, non-Muslims are frequently harassed and intimidated without recourse to protection from the State.
• Converts from Islam to another religion are subject to the death penalty unless they recant.
• Jews cannot become citizens of Saudi Arabia, or even visit it. In February 2004 Saudi Arabia, to attract more foreign visitors, began issuing visas to non-Muslim tourists for the first time. “Jewish people” were explicitly excluded from obtaining visas.
The comparative records of Egypt, Syria, Yemen etc etc are also distinctly poor in this
area.
I’m astounded at the back & forth despite some valid inputs, most of you are South Africans insulting each other over a conflict 10k km’s away…How about focusing on our foremost identities & problems we have right here!
@ David Saks - I do not make the comparison between Palestinians freedom struggle, and the struggle by people in the Warsaw Ghetto lightly. Instead, there is something important that unites all struggles against oppressions - simply that the spirit of freedom can never be broken, no matter how many F-16, or gas chambers the oppressor has. The “War on Gaza” was a war against all Palestinians, because they are Palestinians. Just like Jews were targeted simply because they were Jews in the Warsaw ghetto. Just like there was no distinction between combatants and civilians in the Warsaw ghetto, so to was their no distinction between civilians and combatants in Gaza. This might be slanderous to you, but is a truth to me.
On civilian deaths - Personally, I am willing to say that Israeli civilian deaths are unacceptable. And moreover, that military action by the Palestinian resistance - which I accept as their right - should not target civilians. You on the other hand, defend Israeli actions of killing innocent civilians, by blaming Hamas. The reality is that it was Israeli soldiers fired rockets that killed civilians, in disproportionate numbers, in schools, vegetable markets etc. Your defence of the Israeli armies actions in killing civilians can only be justified on the basis that a Palestinian life matters less than an Israeli life.
On humanitarian aid - Humanitarian aid was denied, and then allowed through on the whim of the Israeli government - that indicates a power to control access to food, medical supplies and other basics of life. Being able to do that, tells a story of where the power lies, and oppressors always have the power.
Please feel free to have the last word on this issue, because not only will we not agree, but I find it amazing that as a religious leader and the organisation you represent would defend the disproportionate loss of civilian lives. As a Muslim, I would say the same to any Muslim leaders justifying indiscriminate attacks against civilians. Just remember, the resistance lives on, until people of peace provide leadership for a just solution to this conflict. Predictably,in this debare you offer no leadership in this direction.
It was not music, it was words,- subtle, background, soft, indoctrination; and I never met them. After I listened to the words I never bought from that shop again. There is a legal term for that type of sublimal indoctrination - it is banned in advertising for instance.
Before 1948 the Jews owned land in Syria, Iraq, Jordan and Lebanon. With the exception of Lebanon, which had to be shared with the Christians, the Arabs got all the rest -99% of the Middle East; and the Jews got Israel, 1%.
I lodged the message on the wrong blog by mistake. You really are becoming paranoid!
And I have already replied - what don’t you understand about the word “no”?
Mundundu
Read David Saks comment - it likely cleared at the same time as yours.
What difference does it make if most Muslims are moderate, if they can’t control their fanatics? Moderate Muslims seem afraid to speak.
Just one example - in Somalia and Egypt 90% of the women are genetically mutilated. I am told that The Prophet banned any type of mutilation. If so - why do Islamic Scholars not speak out?
You speed read too much! Female Genital (not Genetic!) Mutilation is not an Islamic practice, it is a cultural practice that began thousands of years before Islam was founded. I’ve written on this before, in response to your incorrect statements, but either you read too fast, or you deliberately chose to ignore the facts. I suspect the latter, and that the facts on FGM do not fit in with your fanatical anti-Muslim/Anti-Arab/Islamophobic beliefs.
1) “I should obviously take as much care as reasonably possible not to hit you”
This is the crux of the matter… While I support the IDF’s right to take action against Hamas I do not for believe that they took as much care as reasonably possible. I believe they took the option that weighed the lives of IDF soldiers over and above the lives of civilians in Gaza and that is what I find unconscionable. If Israel
truly wanted to prevent civilian casualties then surely something a bit more precise could have been used than bombing buildings with artillery or from the air? I am no master at military tactics but I seems that the IDF took the easiest option and simply used air strikes and artillery rather than risking IDF soldiers on the ground.
The end result is, do you believe the life of one Israeli soldier is equal to one Palestinian civilian? I know what the IDF would say but I would like to know your moral justification for this given that you are a neutral party.
Also, Hamas being elected by a two thirds majority is not relevant. The ANC in South Africa has a two thirds majority in this country,
does that make all of those who did not vote for them jointly responsible for whatever they choose to do, legal or not?
2) Civilian casualties are unfortunately inevitable in any armed conflict, however steps can and should always be made limit civilian
deaths wherever possible. Keep in mind the it is not only Israel that are guilty of this - the Russian conflict with Georgia is a prime
example of disregard for Civilian casualties. The USA’s carpet bombing of North Vietnam would fall within the same area.
How many civilian deaths would be unacceptable to Israel, or do you support the right of Israel to inflict an infinite number of casualties in order to destroy military targets?
3) I do not generally draw parallels to Israel and the Apartheid government (apart from the former’s support for the latter.) I was
trying to point out that there are ways of dealing with a terrorist threat that do not involve killing over one thousand civilians. I do
agree the frequency of said attacks where not matched in South Africa but the death toll of individual bombings was certainly on the same
level of threat.
Lyndall, this comment is just random. What difference does it make if most Muslims are moderate, if they can’t control their fanatics?
First define control and to whose ideals this control should be applied. Perhaps in some nations, the idea of random citizens spouting defamatory and incorrect notions on the internet should be controlled. By failing to control the dissemination of damaging fallacies, perhaps we’re all at fault. Just one random example.
As a second notion, think of something like the KKK and related organisations like right-wing militias. How much control is it really subject to? And think if right-wing Christian fanatics are really subject to enough control. Or is it because the ‘controllers’ lean less than subtly in their direction that they aren’t subject to more vehement measures? And if you think the control measures are successful, well, they might prevent a lot but they don’t prevent everything, do they? Tim McVeigh wasn’t subject to much control, and this against his own people.
Not even talking about the revolting behaviour of the military in places like Guantanamo and Iraq. Explain to me why US service personnel were allowed to torture prisoners daily for months on end, allowed to humiliate and injure them incessantly? The only reason any measures were taken at all was because the press got hold of this and other nations gave their input. If it had been left up to only Americans they’d have probably just let it go on completely unchecked.
Israel doesn’t see anything particularly wrong with the use of extreme force because their people don’t. Palestine doesn’t particularly see anything wrong with missiles because their people don’t. These things do not work one way. The US didn’t see much wrong with arresting potentially innocent people and torturing them.
The actions of fanatics are generally subject to relatively little control anywhere in the world because much of their real operations are hidden. To blame babies because they didn’t stop them, sure. That’s like putting your grandchildren in front of a firing squad because the world suddenly goes Burma on you and doesn’t like the dissemination of randomness on the internet.
I know it was a practice before Islam. So what? These people claim to be Muslim now, yet Islamic scholars are silent.
Christian Missionaries banned practices for converts which were seen to conflict with God’s Word - like cannibalism, muti murders, and polygamy. They did not ban practices which did not conflict - like labola! Nor, by the way, did they force anyone to convert.
Islamic scholars have condemned the practice for decades, but clearly, they did not do enough in the past. People do change, however.
www.iheu.org/node/2503
International day of zero tolerance against Female Genital Mutilation
Palais des Nations, Geneva, 6 February 2007″
“We wish to bring to the attention of today’s meeting the important decision issued by a conference of leading Islamic scholars at Al-Azhar University on 22-23 November 2006.
The decision outlaws female genital mutilation for all Muslims.”
David,
I have sent the following to the israeli embassy in Pretoria…
ISRAEL SHOULD LEAD THE WORLD
Dear Sir,
I refer to the following recent statement made by South Africa’s Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Fatima Hajaig at a COSATU rally for Palestine.: “They in fact control [America]. No matter which government comes in to power, whether Republican or Democratic, whether Barack Obama or George Bush. The control of America, just like the control of most Western countries, is in the hands of Jewish money and if Jewish money controls their country then you cannot expect anything else”.
IIn the circumstances, Israel should cut diplomatic relations with South Africa. She can then remove herself, with dignity, from all the anti-zionist/ anti-semitic garbage emanating from The RSA.
Israel should do so, not only because of South Africa’s hatred towards her and American Jewry, but also because of South Africa’s partnership with Mugabe which has led to the destruction of Zimbabwe and its population.
Whether other countries should follow Israel’s example is up to them but there is no reason that Israel should not lead the world.
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on January 24th, 2009 at 1:21 am
Lyndall
You say “What difference does it make if most Muslims are moderate, if they can’t control their fanatics?”
It took a long time for Christians in Ireland to “control” their fanatics, and then the USA promptly elected a reborn fanatic into the White House who then declared an illegal war that has killed up to 1 million Iraqies. For eight years moderate Christians in the US could not control him.
And what if Jewish fanatics legitimised by the state of Israel and supported by Christian fanatics under the guise of the US military-industrial complex keep Palestineans in Gaza under military occupation.
Those Jewish and Christian fanatics should be brought under the “control” of moderate Christians and Jews.
It is not easy to “control” fanatics of any religion.
“The control of America, just like the control of most Western countries, is in the hands of Jewish money […]”
It is estimated that there are 13million ‘Jews’ worldwide.
This constitutes less than two tenths of one percent of all humanity.
For every thousand people, less than two are ‘Jews’
Half of this global population of Jews is physically isolated in an obscure area of land not that much bigger than Gauteng and 60% of that in turn is covered by the Negev desert.
Yet Jews control America and “most Western countries” and by extension, pull all the strings behind the much proclaimed and maligned ‘New World Order’, dominated by ‘The West’
For such a tiny minority, this either an extraordinary and impressive achievement by any standards, or it is utter rubbish.
Throughout history, rabble rousers and those seeking power by radical transformation have singled out minorities against which to foment hatred in the service of their own ends.
The more successful and resourceful the minority, the easier it is to accord their very existence for lackluster performance and creative shortcomings, pleaded as victim hood and which readily captures the imagination of those with a penchant for blame and bigotry.
David. Nice article. thanks for your reporting and please keep uncovering the truth.
THE BLATANT UNDISGUISED ANTI SEMITISM displayed at this rally is appaling and not acceptable in a country that professes to be a leader on tolerance. Absolutely disgusting.
I am a zionist and I support Israel. I do not support them killing children and people who are not involved with terrorism. i do not support everything that Israel does. I do beleive that Israel is fighting a just cause, a cause to have a homeland in the region that was the kingdom of the jews. This is a historical fact. If you tell us to forget about about our ancesotral homeland because it has been two thousand years then I respond that the Palestinians should forget because what is the difference between 61 and 2000 years? At what point does ones claim prescribe according to natural justice?
jews did not seek war when they return to Paletine(name given to the kigdom of Israel and Judua by the Romans after its conquest, they sought peace with their arab neighbour and they were greeted by hostile actions by the Palestinian arabs. and so the wars broke out and the rest is history.
let me make something clear for all muslims that do not decry hamas terrorist action. you can support a hust cause. But it does not make all action rendered in the name of that cause just.
your silence on hamas and suicide bomb campaigns, rocket barrages, and calls for the destruction of of israel by any means are a tacit support for hamas.
Admit what you support. And show your true colours. I am a zionist. I support Israel. It is a just cause. I do not however support all of israels actions.
I remember the excuses made for suicide bombing. “They have no choice. The occupation”
the same can be said about any action that results from provocation. What ever happened to free will? This argument is falicious and blatant lie that supports the killing of innocent israelis. unless like hamas you beleive that all israelis are soldiers. the weak and old included.
JEWISH MONEY HA!!!!
The jew claw I suppose?
I looks like Fatima and to many other muslims here have watched Borat and not actually realised he was poking fun at people like themselves byt rather taken it literally.
I refer “Muslims Against Racism” to Fatima Hajaig’s recent comments in Lenasia.
I note that their petition states: “All racism, including anti-Semitism, is deplorable.”
In the circumstances, I hope that “Muslims Against Racism” openly criticizes Fatima Hajaig’s remarks. Otherwise, one might conclude that they do not really consider anti-semitism to be “deplorable”.
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on January 26th, 2009 at 9:55 am
Mr Saks is right to be alarmed by the rise in anti-Semitism in SA and abroad.
But the ‘dichotomy’ of Jews is not merely a projection from without. In his recent piece in the Star, Saks argues for the inconsequence of majority opinion (siding against Israel’s operation on Gaza) and then goes to pains, irrelevantly and irrationally, to point out that the majority of South African Jews support Israel’s action, railing against the “dissenting views of a small, albeit vocal, fringe element”.
Why ‘dissenting’? Because they disagree with the party line. The Jewish Board of Deputies has, for complicated reasons, been allowed a monopoly on the view (as if there is only one) of the Jewish community (as if there is such a neat collective). There is agreement or there is dissent. In what sense are the dissenters ‘fringe’? Certainly they are not on the fringe of civil society or public debate (on the contrary). Are they marginally Jewish? That is too insulting to answer.
Support for Israel means wishing them to do what is moral and what is in its long-term interests. About both these things, the dissenters might be wrong. But that would be another reason to engage them in dialogue, not seek their estrangement.
This is small change compared to the noxious division between the ‘good’ and ‘bad’ Jew, but the Board’s rhetoric, and jealous, small-minded siege mentality, is more damaging than we might realise.
What Israel did or did not do is not the question. Its about the seeds being sown for anti semitism in South Africa.The honourable Minister should realize that her words are taken seriously and can these words can easily be the catalyst for the beginnings of Jewish hatred in South Africa. Our beloved constitution protects the rights of all and as I understand this includes Jews. I am a Zionest and our constitution allows me to be one. People can disagree with me but that does not give them the right to hate me. What did I do to the honourable minister? I do not critisize her. She has the sworn duty to defend our constitution. It appears that she is not in agreement with our constitution. If she did she would have toned down her words to one of disagreement Israel and words of Anti Semitism. Please Madam Minister think before you talk.
Professor Steven Firer
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on January 27th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
It must be very galling for a South African Jew to see how large elements in the “liberation struggle” against Apartheid is now turning against Israel.
After all, Jews were very prominent in the anti-apartheid struggle.
The Krok Brothers even built the Apartheid Museum, on similar lines as Holocaust Museums, to curry favour with the ANC-government. They were richly rewarded with a casino license.
The much-maligned Afrikaner Government was a staunch supporter of Israel.
Many Afrikaners still look up to Jews as “God se Volk”.
The sentiment against Israel in South Africa is just a reflection of what is happening to a much larger extent world wide. http://www.israel-vs-palestine.com/gz/?stats
After all he claims that Muslims like him “are appalled at the occasional manifestations of anti-Semitism in our community.” But when I email him about an appalling incident of antisemitism (re Fatima Hajaig) , he remains silent. He allows antisemitism to go unchecked even when it infects our society at its anti-zionist governmental core.
So Farid, have you become the evil that you abhor?
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on January 27th, 2009 at 10:07 pm
We seem to be missing the point here - the real problem, in my opinion, is the divisive nature of religion itself.
Because the world’s bibles are made up of primarily unsubstantiated “facts”, there arguments are illogical, serving only to fan the flames of hatred for time immemorial.
Get rid of religion, and you get ride of the problem. Its that simple, really.
Can it ever happen? Ofcourse not…there is simply too much money at stake.
So get on with your lives…these nonsensical arguments and counter arguments ar egoing to be with us forever
Thank you for your email and attached statement by Tony Leon.
I should add that in any main-stream democracy, Fatima Hajaig would have been immediately sacked once the remarks were verified. I don’t think that even an apology would safe her skin. It is extremely sad that such standards are absent in South Africa and says little about the state of our fledgling democracy.
I have to conclude that antisemitism is starting to seep into the very core of this society and has, to some extent, become politically acceptable. Fatima Hajaig’s remarks have set an extremely dangerous precedent.
yours sincerely
Anthony Posner
On 28 Jan 2009, at 12:54 PM, Tammy Evans wrote:
Dear Mr Posner
Thank you for your e-mail dated 27 January 2009.
Please note that following your suggestion, we released the attached statement regarding Ms Hajaig’s behaviour.
We will also be posing a question to her in Parliament requesting the reasons behind her statements, and whether she still supports those views.
Sincerely
Tammy Evans
STATEMENT BY TONY LEON, MP
DA SPOKESPERSON ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs must apologise or be dismissed for anti-Semitic statements
Release, immediate: Wednesday, 28 January 2008
The Democratic Alliance (DA) calls on the Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Ms Fatima Hajaig, to publicly apologise for a series of comments that she made in a speech in Lenasia, Johannesburg on 14 January, failing which, she must be dismissed from office.
The DA has studied the transcript of Ms Hajaig’s address and we are shocked to note, amongst others, her remarks that “they (Jews) control (America), no matter which government comes into power, whether Republican or Democratic, whether Barrack Obama or George Bush. Their control of America, just like the control of most Western countries, is in the hands of Jewish money and if Jewish money controls their country then you cannot expect anything”.
These anti-Semitic comments are not only racist, they are an incitement to communal hatred and run completely counter to the spirit and intent of the Constitution and South Africa’s culture of human rights. Ms Hajaig’s allegations are nothing more than bargain-basement conspiracy mongering, which would be unacceptable coming from a senior member of any government anywhere in the democratic world - let alone in a country such as South Africa which has fought so long and hard to overcome a history of discrimination and racial intolerance.
It is incumbent upon Hajaig to immediately apologise to the people of South Africa in general, the Jewish community in particular, and to US President Barrack Obama. In this regard, it is telling that more than two weeks after she was requested to apologise by, amongst others, Zachie Achmat, Nathen Geffen, and Guy Berger, she has still not seen fit to do so. This makes it clear that she feels absolutely no contrition, nor believes her comments to have been offensive.
If left unaddressed, this situation will create the impression that Ms Hajaig’s comments reflect the view of the South African government. President Motlanthe therefore needs to deal with this issue with the forthright decisiveness which it so clearly merits.
The DA condemns any kind of hate speech as it runs completely counter to our vision of an open opportunity society for all, and is an affront to the constitutional values which we champion.
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on January 28th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
The Known Knowns, and the Known Unknowns…
A writer named David Saks (via), from South Africa, has a column up on Israel, Gaza, and anti-Semitism in his country. My reaction to it can be divided into two parts, that in a lot of ways are quite distant from each other, and in other ways are ver…..
The clarion call of Anti-Semitism is used whenever anyone criticizes the actions of the state of Israel. It is simply a way of stifling debate. The Palestinians remain a non people. As Mr Begin said they are human beasts or cockroaches. Gaza is the new Warsaw Ghetto. It is the ongoing manipulation of the Nazi death camps by the Israeli propaganda machine, which I am afraid does include Hollywood and Time Warner that in fact leads to the rise of “holocaust denialism” It would seem that the six million who were murdered were worthy victims but the Palestinians who have been expelled and marginalized and killed are not worthy. The Israelis had a peace deal with Arafat but did thier best to undermine him. Now they have to deal with Hamas.
David Saks, I like the part where you said: The comment by Fatima Hajaig was the first ever by a member of government in half a century. Perhaps you have amnesia. In October 2003, former Prime Minister of Malaysia, champion of the South - Third World, Dr Mahathir Mohamad, did not mince his words which he stood by when he said: The Jews run the world by proxy, they get others to fight and die for them……….
Tony Leon bragged in his book that he blocked the former Hamas Leader, the late Shaik Yasin, from coming to South Africa. This he claimed to have done at the behest of SAJBOD. Then you have AIPAC, who have made it clear that they influence US politics, and Barack Obama’s cabinet and inner circle advisory is made up of at least 7 Jews. Fatima Hajaig may not be wrong in what she is alleged to have said…
I appreciate your honesty. It is not often, or ever, that one gets an honest Zionist.
It is a refreshing change; unlike one could never ever get any white South African to admit they supported apartheid, or a Nazi to admit to killing Jews.
I am grateful that you have publicly stated that you support the wanton killing of defenceless women and children, based purely on the fact that you disagree their choice of religion.
If that is what you believe then why should you expect your children to be protected from the same mindless killings by other Christian, Hindu, Muslim or Shinto extremists?
I do get a sense that Jews, with few exception (excluding you), do not understand the difference between semitism and zionism. I suggest you establish the differences and then try to rewrite this article. You may surprise yourself.
FAX FATIMA
Fatima, was taped, screaming in Lenasia.
“whether Obama or Bush, the control of America
Is in the hands of Jewish money.”
She wasn’t being funny.
It all appeared on a blog penned by Davis Sacks
And led to Nathan Geffen sending an unusual fax.
“The alleged remark is an affront to our dignity”
He castigated the foreign minister’s deputy.
Zev Krengel then appeared on E TV
And asked for some sort of ANC apology.
He’s taking Fatima to The SAHRC
But who knows when that will be.
Although its PC to sprout anti-zionism
It’s not kosher to propagate anti-semitism
So some members of The SAHRD
Will now support The SAJBD.
Unfortunately, Esack’s Muslims Against Racism
Which supposedly abhors antisemitism
Hasn’t signed that Fatima Fax.
What a disaster for Geffen and Isaacs!
Well Lyndall Beddy, Vusi is 100% correct. Zionism is Racism. This doesn’t come from me but from many Jews who are strongly opposed to Zionism and Israel. The Rabbis from Neturei Karta were recently in South Africa on a visit. You never knew about it because SABC and etv refused to interview them. Visit their website: www.nkusa.org
Then there are other orthodox and moderate Jews who also condemn Zionism and the state of Israel. Visit their websites: www.jewsagainstzionism.com www.ijsn.net
Are these Jews anti-Semitic? Can a Jew be anti-Semintic? They are anti-Zionist…
The Blacklisted Dictator who is afraid to reveal his name along with many others on this blog who sympathise with Israel must wake up to the fact that people in todays world are no longer fooled by everything they read, hear and see in the mass media.
Apart from the Mail and Guardian, the only other source of the truth of what is happening in Gaza, the rest of Palestine and Israel is by alternate media. Whenever you listen to SABC and etv, they are constantly vindicating Israel, as they are an extension of the Israeli Broadcasting Corp.
Fact is that 8000 rockets were fired from Gaza into Southern Israel from 2001 till now. Between 2001 and 2007 that area was still under Israeli occupation and in the control of Fatah led government. Why didn’t Israel put an end to it then when they had the opportunity to do so?
Why now? The answer is simple: they were waiting for the right time to use it as political leverage and they exercised it on 27 Dec 2008. Ehud Olmert is dogged with bribery, corruption and fraud charges. His Kadima party is at all time low. That’s why Tzipi Livni has come to the rescue. This genocide on Gaza was Ehud Olmert’s political mileage to deflect the pending charges and boost his party’s support. And it is giving Jews a bad name and reputation which I am sure they do not need. However SAJBOD and Rabbi Goldstein came out strongly and blindly announcing their unequivocal support to Olmert’s war without facing the embarrassing reality that Jews all over the world, including Israel, USA, UK and South Africa, will not accept this in their name.
People all over the world are upset and angry with Israel. The solution is simple: Israel must learn to come down to earth, sit down seriously and genuinely commit to a peaceful 2 state settlement. We all want this, don’t you…
Are South Africans particular prone to conspiracy theories and paranoia? From Mbeki believing that Cyril, Tokyo and Matthew were out to get him, to the Deputy Misnister thinking Jews control America?
America is not controlled by Jews but by a majority of Christians, and they support Israel because of Christian ideals of justice.
Of 303 million Americans about 1/4 are Roman Catholic ( about 70 million? ). This is the biggest single religious influence in America, which is why all assistance for HIV/AIDS from the USA has strings attached - programmes must rely on abstinence and clinics which do abortions must get no funds.
The main Jihad is not by Muslim fanatics against the 13 million Jews in the world, but against the billions of Christians.
September 11 was not an attack on Jews but on Christians.
The London and Madrid bombing were attacks on Christians not Jews.
The Mumbai attack was on Hindus.
Muslim Jihad is against ALL other religions, not just against Jews.
There are so many historical inaccuracies, and so many signs of brainwashing by Islamic fundamentalism, that it becomes tedious to answer them all. It seems to me that worship of the internet has replaced both common sense and worship of God. Obvious propaganda sites are continually quoted as gospel. I thought therefore it would be simpler to just present the Jewish point of view - THE OTHER VERSION OF HISTORY:
Jews and Arabs have lived in the Middle East for Milleniums. There were no such people as Palestinians till they were given that name post 1948.
Before the First World War the whole of the area of the Middle East was under the sovereignity of the Caliphate of the Ottoman Empire of the Turks. The area now know as Israel/Palestine was very sparcely populated - but all religious groups lived throughout the whole caliphate.
Before the First World War and during the period between the wars there were agreements with the Jews that they would get back “Israel”. There were also conflicting agreements with the Arab desert tribes that they would get the land of their former Turkish overlords.
Before the First War the British had actively encouraged Jewish emigration from all over the world to Turkey. After the war the British blocked Jewish emigration from Europe, and actively encouraged Arab emigration to Israel/Palestine. They said they did that on the instruction of Arab leaders such as the Sauds.
After the Second World War there was an outcry against these politicians BY ORDINARY CHRISTIAN VOTERS in the West, who put pressure on the politicians to keep their long overdue promises to give back Israel to the Jews. In my parents generation there were many who abandoned religion and left the church because of their cover up of the holocaust.
When Churchill consulted what land was to be Israel, he did not consult with the Jews, but with the Saudi princes on a yacht in the Meditarrean - trying as much as possible to accomodate the Arabs (for their oil) at the expense of the Jews.
In 1948 when the UN divided up the post colonial world - it created two bantustans to protect minorities : Israel in the Middle East, and Pakistan in India. Given to Israel was considerably less than had been promised to the Jews, and given to the Arabs was not only considerably more - but also the right to expell Jews from their territories. Prior to 1948 it had been promised that Jewish property and citizenship would be protected in the new Arab states.
In 1967 the Arab world threatened to destroy Israel and the Jews. The Jews won the war and land which had aleady been promised to them in previous agreements. Some of this has already been given back. But this is why this land is not “private land” but disputed land. Israel has rights to it both by agreements and by conquest.
The Muslims expelled the Hindus from Pakistan and the Jews from the new Arab states, but refused to take in Arab refugees from Israel. There are still hundreds of thousands of “Palestinians” in countries like Lebanon who have been there 60 years - had children and grandchildren worked and lived there but STILL do not qualify for citizenship.
Muslims were happy to accept Pakistan, but not to accept the right of Israel to exist at all.
Blacklisted Dictator’s name is very clearly set out on one of his answers above.
As for ‘Islamic brainwashing’ and ‘worship of God’?
Worship of ‘God’ is the exact problem with this entire saga. Worship of a Judeo-Christian God is what prevents the one side from sitting down at the table for discussions. Worship of Allah may just be what prevents the other side from sitting down. I wouldn’t know. I’m not brainwashed enough. Both sides are convinced of their religious interpretation of distant historical events and use this as leverage to gain support from their respective sides. This is, as with other random issues like Zimbabwe and Northern Ireland, something that requires a purely political solution with religion considered as a ‘very relevant factor to be taken into account’ not as the pivotal point of the solution.
Freedom of religion is a far more important concept than correctness regarding which religion. Most good settlements result from the one side going ‘this is what we want’, the other side saying the same and both sides getting most of what they want but having to compromise on some of their initial position. Until people choose to or are forced to accept less than 100% of what they want, there will be no agreements.
God isn’t doing this fighting. This is a Man issue. I don’t see any celestial smiting going on anywhere. I just see a mass of arrogant flesh on both sides.
Lyndall you really are determined to provide a potted history of tHE Middle EAST. The myth of Israel’s creation refers to books liKe Leon Uris’s Exodus. You know the tiny infant David about to be destroyed by the Goliath of the Arab world. In fact the Zionists had a highly developed army in waiting. You may recall the Stern gang and Irgun which went around committing acts of terror. Blowing up the King David Hotel and murdering off duty British soldiers etc. Ilan Pappe is a academic Israeli historian who published an academic book (you know that is a book with footnotes and cross references to substantiate what the author is claiming) which documents how the great Ben Gurion himself authorized Irgun to drive the Palestinians out of their villages and to bulldoze them into the ground in order to make Israel Jewish. There is an ongoing obsession with demographics in Israel. In other words the Jews want to remain in the majority. That is why they import thousands of poor Eastern Europeans with only the smallest connection to Judaism into Israel. It is ironic that some of these “Jewish Immigrants” have been forming little Neo-Nazi hate groups.
You really have some screwball ideas. I really don’t think we have to go back to the Bible!
However the Israeli architects did - with great success - found old mines, and old vines and olive trees where there was no water. Worked out in one case that they had been watered by dew - by building small stone walls around each plant to catch the dew.
Lyndall Beddy, Blacklisted Dictator and company, debating is healthy and good for every multi racial, multi religious society. Now to answer the rhetoric.
Until I visited the websites which I mentioned about the Jewish views on Zionism, I had no idea that there were Jews who are anti-zionists. Have you visited their websites Lyndall? I am glad that I learnt about Zionism from the Jews and not from Muslims, as I was always misled by the notion that Zionism and Judaism are the same, when they are not. In fact it is through this lie that Zionists are getting away on the winning ticket of Jewish sympathy, the holocaust, anti-semitism, etc.
Believing all the propaganda you read and see from the mass media is not going to help you live the lie we are all living. Perhaps you should take the time to ask yourself a few simple questions…
“But why is this really happening?”
“Why are the Palestinians refusing to let go?”
“What could be the root cause of these problems?”
“Why whenever there’s a terrorist attack, the culprits turn out to Muslims?”
“Why did Bush and Cheney make life so miserable for everyone in the world today?”
“Why we never hear the term Christian terrorists or Hindu terrorists or Jewish terrorists?”
“For Iraq to get freedom from Saddam Hussain, why have 1,2 million Iraqis paid the price?”
“For the terrorists to be rooted out, why have a few hundred thousand Afghanis paid the price?”
“Why were Palestinians forced out of their homes to make way for settlers and become refugees?”
The answer is simple. Muslims are soft targets because the Arab and Muslim world provides no leadership to counteract any blame game or propaganda against them. Why? All Arab leaders, except for Lebanon, are corrupt, dictatorial, despotic, puppets and stooges of the West. In fact their very existence suits the Zionist agenda well. Israel is very happy with the status quo of Arab Leadership in its present form, as they will ignore the voices of their people, hence giving Israel the go ahead to wreak havoc like it has just done in Gaza or is still doing. The worst of them all is Mahmoud Abbas, the so-called President of Palestine. And whenever a grouping with the quest for the truth and real democracy emerges, then they are branded evil, the terrorists, the wrong party, etc.
You are never going to achieve any peace in Palestine and Israel for as long as you deliberately ignore Hamas. All the Western leaders, Arab leaders and Israel’s talking to Mahmoud Abbas and Fatah will never change or improve anything because they are not representative of their people. As long as Israel is stubborn and flying high like their F-16s, then we can forget peace. But the day Israel enters into serious dialogue with Hamas, rest assured, there will be peace.
You mentioned Muslims attacking America. Where is the real evidence? I’m not talking about the evidence George W Bush and Dick Cheney manufactured. “The Muslim” plans the most perfect crime, undetected all the way until it happens. When it’s all over, they conveniently discover the evidence he leaves behind.
The abandoned rental car in the airport parking lot
The Quran and all the plans to carry out 911 inside it
The discovery of a passport amongst the ruins of the WTC
Then Muslims attacked the trains in Madrid and London, and now recently in Mumbai, my roots. Again they were undetected all the way, until they left evidence conveniently to be discovered. Come on, who are these intelligence manipulators fooling with all this evidence, its people like you Lyndall.
If Khalid Sheik Mohamed was the real mastermind of 911, where’s the evidence? If Bush, the CIA, MI6, Mossad had the evidence, then surely the evidence would have stood on its merits in court and he would have been convicted. What was the need for him to be brutally tortured with water boarding and other tactics to confess? Because Bush was desperate to prove to the world his “war on terror” was working.
You made mention of Pakistan. Muslims throughout the world with the exception of people in Pakistan, are not happy with the creation of this country as it does not represent the interests of Muslims. Call me anti-Pakistan if you want.
If India was the same country as it was before the British came in, they would have been the powerhouse of Asia, a super power of multi cultural, multi ethnic and multi religious people. Muslims would’ve accounted for at least 40% of the country’s population today, had the British not instigated Mohamed Ali Jinnah into pushing for a separate Muslim state, as they used the Hindu nationalist trump card to achieve their agenda. Therefore the expulsion of Hindus from their homes in Pakistan (similar to Palestinians in Palestine) is the fault of the British?
It was the same British who unilaterally decided to give Palestine away to Israel. It was the same British who instigated the Chinese to break away Singapore from Malaysia. Wherever they colonised, they left those nations divided.
Why must Arab nations take in the Palestinians when the Palestinians have had their homes and land stolen from them?
What gave Lord Balfour the right to declare Palestine a homeland for Jews?
If Israel was the “promised land” as divinely ordained by God, then why is it hell on earth and the most unsafe place in the world?
If it was the “promised land”, then what’s the need for having the 4th strongest army in the world and a sophisticated intelligence agency such as the Mossad?
Why is Israel a recipient of $3 billion US aid, amounting to more than what the entire African continent receives?
Lyndall I have heard all the excuses Israel and the Zionists make whenever something happens or goes wrong. It’s like they have a set of readymade excuses on standby waiting to be used.
When a school or hospital or mosque is bombed, the answer is that terrorsit were hiding inside.
When there’s a mass funeral, the answer is that bodies were removed from graves to dramatise the picture.
Read articles from people like Robert Fisk, John Pilger, Steven Friedman, Arunadhati Roy, Amarish Misra and Naom Chomsky. These are not Muslims but they are saying the same things I am saying.
Lastly you mentioned that David Saks should explain Zionism to me. Why must he? It’s like asking Eugene Terreblanche if there’s anything wrong with Apartheid or the “wit wolwe.”
Nathan Geffen (SAHRD) writes: “Another awful consequence of Hajaig’s comments is that instead of strengthening the Palestinian cause, she has given succour to supporters of the Israeli occupation, who falsely tarnish criticism of Israel as antisemitic. On the contrary, much criticism of Israel is motivated by human rights and anti-racism, which are the antidote to and opposite of antisemitism. The abuse of the antisemitism charge by uncritical defenders of Israel reduces their credibility in responding to a genuine case of antisemitism like Hajaig’s comments.” http://www.sashrip.org/node/25
However, The Palestine Solidarity Alliance does not agree with him. I refer to an article which has recently appeared on “Voice of The Cape”…
“Adam said if Hajaig’s entire talk was aired, listeners would hear Hajaig “appealing to the Jewish collective conscience in the face of Israel’s inhumane attack on the people of Gaza and that she was clearly not anti-Semitic. We are concerned that whenever Jews who support Israel are challenged for their support of racism they play the anti-Semitic race card. Hence our view that this attack on Deputy Minister Hajaig is nothing less than a malicious and calculated act to veil their shameless support for Israel’s gross violations which the Deputy Minister has exposed.”” http://www.vocfm.co.za/public/articles.php?Articleid=44522
Moreover, Prof Farid Esack (SAHRD and “Muslims Against Racism”) has not personally supported Nathan’s fax to Fatima. As a result, it is evident that most of his anti-zionist non-Jewish friends do not concur with him.
BLACKLISTED DICTATOR on February 3rd, 2009 at 3:37 pm
The time has come to stop playing the blame game. We live in a society that seems to value finding people to blame when things go wrong rather than to identify how to prevent things from going wrong again in the future. So, it’s not surprising that the participants in the Israeli Palestinian conflict always get caught up in the blame game, and tend to try to pin the tail on the donkey when something goes off track. Unfortunately blaming is usually pointless. The comments I have read so far are clearly not oriented towards solving the Israeli Palestinian, but focus on finding someone to blame (an emotional process) for the problem. Not only is blaming inflammatory, but it allows everyone to try to shift responsibility for messes and to do nothing to prevent them in the future. Both sides have been scared and suspicious of each other, what a terrible conflict. The Blame Game in the Middle East conflict for everything but the weather is a time-honored tradition. It’s time to stop playing the game and show maturity by discussing ways in which will put an end to the conflict. The suggestions should be constructive and workable. Not ones that state Israel must give up Jerusalem or go back to the 1967 borders or that the Palestinians have no right to land that they consider theirs. I do not have the answers, but if the debate continues on the lines that it has so far, both sides are going to lose out as we will never progress to find a solution.
check out this blog by a Palestinian journalist living in Gaza. http://www.gazatoday.blogspot.com/
It is patently clear that Israel is trying to force Hamas to accept their terms of ceasefire by having enforced an economic blockade and bombing the people and infrasture. These are typical war tactics to try and enforce change of governments.
Zionism only came into being when? Over a hundred years ago or so. Where and in which holy scripture does it mention that Palestine is the promised land to the Zionists in the 20th Century?
Why do many Jews around the world reject the state of Israel?
Seems that you do not know your history or you refuse to read. It was the Balfour Declaration that started the process for the creation of Israel. The UN only endorsed it in 1948. I quote from the Israeli Foreign Affairs website link below:
During the First World War, British policy became gradually committed to the idea of establishing a Jewish home in Palestine (Eretz Yisrael). After discussions in the British Cabinet, and consultation with Zionist leaders, the decision was made known in the form of a letter by Arthur James Lord Balfour to Lord Rothschild. The letter represents the first political recognition of Zionist aims by a Great Power.
And I further quote from the Emery University website in Atlanta, Georgia, that the British hand was involved in the partition of India. See link below:
14 August, 1947, saw the birth of the new Islamic Republic of Pakistan. At midnight the next day India won its freedom from colonial rule, ending nearly 350 years of British presence in India. During the struggle for freedom, Gandhi had written an appeal “To Every Briton” to free their possessions in Asia and Africa, especially India (Philips and Wainwright, 567). The British left India divided in two. The two countries were founded on the basis of religion, with Pakistan as an Islamic state and India as a secular one.
Whether the partition of these countries was wise and whether it was done too soon is still under debate. Even the imposition of an official boundary has not stopped conflict between them. Boundary issues, left unresolved by the British, have caused two wars and continuing strife between India and Pakistan.
The partition of India and its freedom from colonial rule set a precedent for nations such as Israel, which demanded a separate homeland because of the irreconcilable differences between the Arabs and the Jews. The British left Israel in May 1948, handing the question of division over to the UN. Un-enforced UN Resolutions to map out boundaries between Israel and Palestine has led to several Arab-Israeli wars and the conflict still continues.
The Zionist movement is the modern national-political expression of a millennia-old Jewish connection to the Land of Israel. These ancient roots are summed up in the Introduction to the DECLARATION OF THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL May 14, 1948: “The Land of Israel was the birthplace of the Jewish people. Here their spiritual, religious and political identity was shaped. Here they first attained to statehood, created cultural values of national and universal significance and gave to the world the eternal Book of Books”.
Even after the majority of them had been forcibly exiled from their land, the Jewish people kept faith with it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom.
The millennia-old connection between the Land of Israel and the Jewish people is inextricably bound up in Jewish culture, tradition and prayer. The Jewish peoples’ physical presence in the land has been continuous for over 3300 years. A sovereign Jewish nation has existed three times in the land. The first lasted until the Babylonian conquest in 586 BC, and the second until the Roman conquest in 70CE. The modern state of Israel, established in 1948, is the third time that the Jews have lived in the land of Israel as a sovereign nation.
Tell me why many orthodox Jews throughout the world especially in the USA do not agree with you. What about the many Jews here in South Africa who came out publicly in the press distancing themselves far from what you and Rabbi Goldstein claimed to be speaking on their behalf?
The facts you quote are mostly from propaganda or neo-nazi sites. Vast amounts of Arab oil money has been spent in the last 60 years smearing the Jews.
And before the Brits - the biggest colonisers were the Muslims. Or did you think Islam an indigeneous African religion?
In fact Turkey, itself, was an imperial conquest of Islam. It was originally Christian.
Zionism is about the return to the Jews of their historic homeland, not someone else’s. Read a Bible.
The fact that the Brits and the Arabs bussed in a lot of people during the mandate period (now called Palestinians) does not take away Jewish rights.
The is a world of a difference between Arabs and Turks (Turks are NOT Arabs) and Persians/Iranians.
Turks are not a race - they are a mixture of people. Here is a good article on the origin of the Turks. www.byzantinos.com/6_The_Turks.html
Did the Turks conquer the lands which later constituted the Ottoman Empire because of religion, or not.
Did Spain conquer most of Latin America in the name of Christianity, or was it in search of gold and silver and other loot they could plunder?
Lyndall at it again are you. For some-one who claims a degree in history you really are something else. The Palestinians occupied Palestine for centuries. Suddenly a bunch of Europeans decided that the land belonged to them two thousand years before and wanted the Palestinians out. Why don’t you read ilan Pappe’s book :The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine” It is academic.The author supporst his claims with references something which you really fail to do.
For how long are you going to be in constant denial of anything positive in history that has been in favour of Muslims / Arabs / Persians ? Turks / Palestinians, etc. It seems that you refuse to read and substantiate your claims with references and facts.
I am a South African, a Jew, a supporter of human rights and the truth. It is sad to see how many people have commented blatantly in favour of Israel when it is no big secret that they have violated all UN resolutions, peace accords, human rights and dignity of others especially the Palestinians, and abused the sacredness of the Jewish faith to get their way.
Remember we are over 15000 Jews in South Africa (not a handful) who are opposed to what Israel has done recently in Gaza, for there was nothing Jewish about it. In fact they killed another 6 Palestinians yesterday.
When will the killings stop? Why did Israel bomb UN establishments even though the UN officials denied any gunmen being in them? Why did Israel use White Phosphorous bombs, depleted uranium and other chemical weapons?
If Israel was righteous and ordained as a Jewish state by G-d, then why does it have to resort to violence to “protect” itself?
Then SAJBoD declares unilaterally that all Jews are firmly behind Israel. What a lie? Are we then responsible for inviting this poison into South Africa?
Modern Zionism has p…..away 2000 years of the moral high ground. The Jews witnessed to being God’s chosen by always being on the side of the downtrodden and hard done by. There was a beauty to the spiritual longing for Jerusalem and for the faith that endured. The state of Israel now looks just like any other of the many thousands of bully boy regimes that have inflicted themselves on human history.
Thank you Mark Thom and Moshe Dayan for some valuable input into this blog.
Can somebody explain as to why Gaza is still being attacked?
The first excuse for the genocide that began on 27 December 2008, was that Hamas was firing rockets into Israel. Given the global outrage and overwhelming condemnation by majority of the world including peace loving Jews, Israel tried to save face by hanging on to the pathetic Bush legacy - “we are doing our bit in the war against terror.” This off course never worked. Eventually a unilateral ceasefire was announced by Israel followed by Hamas.
The reason for the ceasefire was that Israel stopped the rocket fire. But the rockets are still being fired. So what have they achieved apart from butchering over 1400 people? The answer is a more racist, stronger right wing which may be headed by Benjamin Netanyahu. Not to forget the Bouncer (Lieberman) on the political scene laying claim to fame. An interesting role model for a society that claims to be chosen by God and to be righteous.
Over a week ago Hamas agreed to an Egyptian brokered 18 month truce. Israel showed willingness to go ahead with it.
But then Israel went back into Gaza in the past few days killing more people. Ehud Olmert said no to the truce because the goal posts have been shifted once again by them and this time they are using the Gilad Shalit excuse. What’s next?
What’s even a bigger joke is that government spokesman, Mark Regev, said that he can’t understand why Hamas is refusing the Red Cross and other Human Rights Groups to visit or inspect the situation with Gilad Shalit. How convenient to mention this when it is the same Red Cross and Human Rights Groups (including Israeli based ones) which you refuse to listen to when they expose your army’s treacherous war tactics and gross violation of human rights.
It seems that Israel and the Zionist lobbies have got a readymade set of applausible, predictable excuses available on hand that in the event of them getting caught doing something wrong, their response is ready for the media.
In conclusion, the reason for all these excuses and goal post shifting is simple. Ehud Olmert is desperately seeking a face saving exit from office, given the fraud, bribery and corruption allegations that’s hounding him, as well as the fact that his recent war on Gaza was futile and achieved nothing but senseless murder, endless devastation and no hope for peace.
Your article is truly sickening. You monitor anti-semitic remarks as a job, but it seems that to foster Islamophobic sentiment is your primary goal.
Your obsessive attack on Muslims and Islam makes this blindingly obvious.
How you can actually condone the genocide of a helpless, imprisoned people is unbelievable. If that is not enough- you blame them for being attacked!
You complain about rockets being fired into Israel but don’t acknowledge that it was Israel that broke the truce, by blocking food and medical supplies which it agreed NOT to do. When a nation is starving, what do you expect them to do? Sit back and starve to death? Yet, when they retaliate, you blame them for their own genocide!
And sadly, you have not learnt the stark distinction between Zionism and Judaism.
What is most alarming is that the lives of Palestinians simply mean nothing to you. I wonder what you would have to say if the situation were exactly the same, but Israelis and Palestinians were in the reverse position! Enough said.
Yasmeen, I share your sentiments completely and the myth that the ideology of Zionism has anything to do with the religion of Judaism needs to be constantly exposed. I am a Jew and love my religion and culture. Through much introspection and work on myself, I have seperated my religion of Judaism with the ideology of Zionism. People who couple Zionism with Judaism need to keep themselves blinkereed from the reality of occupation at all costs; if they for one moment acknowledged the crime that Israel has been and continues to perpetrate against the Palestinians, their very identity would come into question and they need to preserve this identity at all costs.
I beleive that the reason Saks wrote this article is that he tought he would draw anti-Semetic responses. In this was the case he would “prove” that there were anti-semites “out there”. Instead, there have been rational responses from thinking people. Thank you. Leonard Shapiro.
…you see, it in the interest of the Zionist enterprise to keep the Israeli Jews and Jews outside of Israel in fear of anti-Semitism, so that they will turn a blind eye to the oppression of Palestinians. They perpetuate this myth that, “everybody hates us” and “wants to see us destroyed”. I have met so many thousands of people in my life and have only been on the recieving end of an anti-semetic comment once, and that was when I was 12 years old. I feel compleley safe as a person as well as Jew, in South Africa. Our constitution promotes equality and non-discrimination on every level.
The Gaza Palestinians are not “starving to death”. They are the recipients of massive humanitarian aid from the international community.
It is rubbish that Israel is “blocking food and medical supplies”. The opposite is true.
If Hamas were prepared to co-exist peacefully alongside Israel, there would be no need for extraordinary border restrictions etc. But Hamas is not - they are committed to Israel’s violent destruction, and use every Israeli territorial concession to persist in their murderous attacks against Israeli civilians.
“The genocide of a helpless and imprisoned people”?! Don’t make me laugh. If the Israelis wanted to commit genocide, all they would have to do is behave like Palestinians - for one weekend. Heaven forbid. However, that the Jewish people should ever sink so low as to behave like Palestinians.
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David Saks has worked for the South African Jewish Board of Deputies (SAJBD) since April 1997, and is currently its associate director. Over the years, he has written extensively on aspects of South African history, Judaism and the Middle East for local and international newspapers and journals.
David has an MA in history from Rhodes University. Prior to joining the SAJBD, he was curator -- history at MuseumAfrica in Johannesburg. He is editor of the journal Jewish Affairs, appears regularly on local radio discussing Jewish and Middle East subjects and is a contributor to various Jewish publications.
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And David Makhura to vacate office 
This speaks volumes about the culture of hysterical intolerance and bigotry that has gripped the ANC, Cosatu and their fellow travellers.
There is bitter irony in the fact that the ANC gets so excited about a conflict half a world away which has no direct effect on SA, yet sits on its hands and mutters platitudes about the humanitarian disaster happening across the Limpopo (while supporting Zanu and other vicious regimes such as in Burma).
The hypocrisy is sickening. Thank God I no longer live in SA.
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