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	<title>Comments on: May these sheep all run off a cliff</title>
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		<title>By: &#8216;n Gespartel om Engelse goedkeuring &#171; alleman</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/colloquy/2007/11/20/may-these-sheep-all-run-off-a-cliff/comment-page-1/#comment-59244</link>
		<dc:creator>&#8216;n Gespartel om Engelse goedkeuring &#171; alleman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Oct 2008 22:01:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] klompie is.   &#8216;n Tipiese voorbeeld van hierdie verskynsel (hier gaan dit oor rassisme) is Riaan Wolmarans.  In sy geval is dit &#8216;n kwessie van wiens brood mens eet, diens woord mens spreek, want hy [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] klompie is.   &#8216;n Tipiese voorbeeld van hierdie verskynsel (hier gaan dit oor rassisme) is Riaan Wolmarans.  In sy geval is dit &#8216;n kwessie van wiens brood mens eet, diens woord mens spreek, want hy [...]</p>
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		<title>By: bb-aisha</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/colloquy/2007/11/20/may-these-sheep-all-run-off-a-cliff/comment-page-1/#comment-12617</link>
		<dc:creator>bb-aisha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:49:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/colloquy/2007/11/20/may-these-sheep-all-run-off-a-cliff/#comment-12617</guid>
		<description>As a Muslim Indian,(young practising Muslim woman in hijab) it&#039;s how I feel about my community too. I refuse to be a sheep. But as much as I disagree with many of my community&#039;s ideologies, I only lambast that which I truly think holds no value. We have to understand the reasoning behind beliefs, and even f we don&#039;t agree, we should agree to disagree. Respect of opinions is vital</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a Muslim Indian,(young practising Muslim woman in hijab) it&#8217;s how I feel about my community too. I refuse to be a sheep. But as much as I disagree with many of my community&#8217;s ideologies, I only lambast that which I truly think holds no value. We have to understand the reasoning behind beliefs, and even f we don&#8217;t agree, we should agree to disagree. Respect of opinions is vital</p>
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		<title>By: Roger Saner</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/colloquy/2007/11/20/may-these-sheep-all-run-off-a-cliff/comment-page-1/#comment-8116</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Saner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 11:14:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/colloquy/2007/11/20/may-these-sheep-all-run-off-a-cliff/#comment-8116</guid>
		<description>Riaan T wrote: &lt;i&gt;What I find alarming about the whole debate is the fact that the fundamentalist christian group (especially amongst the Afrikaner) is growing.&lt;/i&gt;

I would think that being an Afrikaans Christian in South Africa at this time (and in the last 12 years) is incredibly hard. Imagine being a part of a group of people who supported an ideology from a theological basis - and it&#039;s been shown that you were wrong? This doesn&#039;t just merit an apology (done) or reconstructive work (doing), but it shakes the very foundations of this kind of Christianity, of what it means to belong to this group.

Afrikaans Christians have had to rethink so many things in the last decade: how they read and interpret their Bibles, what their identity is (it&#039;s good to see a healthy post-apartheid Afrikaans identity beginning to emerge), how they can act in the public sphere given their history, and also how they can still carry on doing church when so much of their approach &lt;i&gt;has&lt;/i&gt; to have been questioned and deconstructed and reconstructed amidst much chaos. At one level it&#039;s amazing Afrikaans Christianity is still around!

So it&#039;s no surprise to me that there are growing fundamentalist sections within Afrikaans Christian society. It&#039;s got to be hard to continually look at yourself, your beliefs and your culture...at some point it becomes easier to draw the lines and paint in the black-and-white picture, and put down some absolutes.

The interesting question then becomes, &quot;How do we all live together with this diversity?&quot; Ah yes, what a great place to live!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Riaan T wrote: <i>What I find alarming about the whole debate is the fact that the fundamentalist christian group (especially amongst the Afrikaner) is growing.</i></p>
<p>I would think that being an Afrikaans Christian in South Africa at this time (and in the last 12 years) is incredibly hard. Imagine being a part of a group of people who supported an ideology from a theological basis &#8211; and it&#8217;s been shown that you were wrong? This doesn&#8217;t just merit an apology (done) or reconstructive work (doing), but it shakes the very foundations of this kind of Christianity, of what it means to belong to this group.</p>
<p>Afrikaans Christians have had to rethink so many things in the last decade: how they read and interpret their Bibles, what their identity is (it&#8217;s good to see a healthy post-apartheid Afrikaans identity beginning to emerge), how they can act in the public sphere given their history, and also how they can still carry on doing church when so much of their approach <i>has</i> to have been questioned and deconstructed and reconstructed amidst much chaos. At one level it&#8217;s amazing Afrikaans Christianity is still around!</p>
<p>So it&#8217;s no surprise to me that there are growing fundamentalist sections within Afrikaans Christian society. It&#8217;s got to be hard to continually look at yourself, your beliefs and your culture&#8230;at some point it becomes easier to draw the lines and paint in the black-and-white picture, and put down some absolutes.</p>
<p>The interesting question then becomes, &#8220;How do we all live together with this diversity?&#8221; Ah yes, what a great place to live!</p>
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		<title>By: Frans</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/colloquy/2007/11/20/may-these-sheep-all-run-off-a-cliff/comment-page-1/#comment-7061</link>
		<dc:creator>Frans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 06:39:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/colloquy/2007/11/20/may-these-sheep-all-run-off-a-cliff/#comment-7061</guid>
		<description>Halo,hier gaan ons weer,maar hierdie keer stadig
en versigtig sodat almal dit kan volg.Deon Maas
het op uitnodiging geskryf,laat ons se om so&#039;n
bietjie lewe te blaas in die lewens van Rapport se
lesers.Skryf s&#039;n tong in die kies &#039;n artikel en se
onder die dekmantel van vryheid van spraak&quot;Satanisme is &#039;n godsdiens en behoort toegelaat te word&quot;.So wat die man kan se wat hy wil
dit is &#039;n vry en demokratiese land.
So wat is dan verkeerd.Dit is wat in my verkrampte
opinie verkeerd is.Rapport het &#039;n uitgebreide leserskring van hoogs verlig ot uiters verkramp en
dan &#039;n middelgroep van gematigde lesers.Deon Maas
moes sy huiswek gedoen het en vasgestel het wat die samestelling van die &quot;familie van lesers&quot; was
en sy artikel versigtig bewoord het.Dit is ook die
standpunt wat ek deurgaans ingeneem het,maar wat tot my spyt baie min gesnap het.Ek kan nie as &#039;n
gasskrywer of spreker al is dit misskien tong in
die kies dinge kwytraak wat vir ander aanstoot mag gee nie en dan kla dat ek &#039;n skop onder my agterent kry nie.
Ek kon nog nooit die sin insien dat Moslem vroue
hulself van kop tot tone moet bedek en dikwels
gewonder of hul nie versmoor van die hitte nie.Sou
ek die standpunt oop en bloot onder vryheid van spraak in &#039;n Moslemland verkondig moet ek nie huil
as hulle my kop wil afkap of met &#039;n sweep wil bykom
nie.Nee meneer Maas en al jou getroue ondersteuners
as jy jou huiswerk gedoen het sou die debat nie
plaasgevind het nie.
Dit is &#039;n feit dat as &#039;n groot gros lesers besluit
om Rapport te boikot die koerant nie langer lewensvatbaar is nie,of sou julle &quot;verligtes&quot; hul
plek geneem het.Julle en Maas het aantal &quot;verkrampte&quot; lesers onderskat en moet nou nie weer op die soapbox klim en se Deon Maas was die slagoffer van &#039;n klein verkrampte minderheid!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Halo,hier gaan ons weer,maar hierdie keer stadig<br />
en versigtig sodat almal dit kan volg.Deon Maas<br />
het op uitnodiging geskryf,laat ons se om so&#8217;n<br />
bietjie lewe te blaas in die lewens van Rapport se<br />
lesers.Skryf s&#8217;n tong in die kies &#8216;n artikel en se<br />
onder die dekmantel van vryheid van spraak&#8221;Satanisme is &#8216;n godsdiens en behoort toegelaat te word&#8221;.So wat die man kan se wat hy wil<br />
dit is &#8216;n vry en demokratiese land.<br />
So wat is dan verkeerd.Dit is wat in my verkrampte<br />
opinie verkeerd is.Rapport het &#8216;n uitgebreide leserskring van hoogs verlig ot uiters verkramp en<br />
dan &#8216;n middelgroep van gematigde lesers.Deon Maas<br />
moes sy huiswek gedoen het en vasgestel het wat die samestelling van die &#8220;familie van lesers&#8221; was<br />
en sy artikel versigtig bewoord het.Dit is ook die<br />
standpunt wat ek deurgaans ingeneem het,maar wat tot my spyt baie min gesnap het.Ek kan nie as &#8216;n<br />
gasskrywer of spreker al is dit misskien tong in<br />
die kies dinge kwytraak wat vir ander aanstoot mag gee nie en dan kla dat ek &#8216;n skop onder my agterent kry nie.<br />
Ek kon nog nooit die sin insien dat Moslem vroue<br />
hulself van kop tot tone moet bedek en dikwels<br />
gewonder of hul nie versmoor van die hitte nie.Sou<br />
ek die standpunt oop en bloot onder vryheid van spraak in &#8216;n Moslemland verkondig moet ek nie huil<br />
as hulle my kop wil afkap of met &#8216;n sweep wil bykom<br />
nie.Nee meneer Maas en al jou getroue ondersteuners<br />
as jy jou huiswerk gedoen het sou die debat nie<br />
plaasgevind het nie.<br />
Dit is &#8216;n feit dat as &#8216;n groot gros lesers besluit<br />
om Rapport te boikot die koerant nie langer lewensvatbaar is nie,of sou julle &#8220;verligtes&#8221; hul<br />
plek geneem het.Julle en Maas het aantal &#8220;verkrampte&#8221; lesers onderskat en moet nou nie weer op die soapbox klim en se Deon Maas was die slagoffer van &#8216;n klein verkrampte minderheid!!</p>
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		<title>By: Riaan T</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/colloquy/2007/11/20/may-these-sheep-all-run-off-a-cliff/comment-page-1/#comment-6242</link>
		<dc:creator>Riaan T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Nov 2007 07:36:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/colloquy/2007/11/20/may-these-sheep-all-run-off-a-cliff/#comment-6242</guid>
		<description>What I find alarming about the whole debate is the fact that the fundamentalist christian group (especially amongst the Afrikaner) is growing. I could not believe Rapport&#039;s sacking of Maas, but then I questioned a number of people in my immediately vicinity (all of the Afrikaans like me) and found that not only did they support Tim du Plessis decision, but never read the article in question. I have to agree with you Riaan, the problem (and I&#039;m sure you find it in all cultures) is the sheep mentality. One can only hope the Afrikaner and backward thinking Christians can develop some sensible critical and individual thinking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I find alarming about the whole debate is the fact that the fundamentalist christian group (especially amongst the Afrikaner) is growing. I could not believe Rapport&#8217;s sacking of Maas, but then I questioned a number of people in my immediately vicinity (all of the Afrikaans like me) and found that not only did they support Tim du Plessis decision, but never read the article in question. I have to agree with you Riaan, the problem (and I&#8217;m sure you find it in all cultures) is the sheep mentality. One can only hope the Afrikaner and backward thinking Christians can develop some sensible critical and individual thinking.</p>
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		<title>By: Paddy</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/colloquy/2007/11/20/may-these-sheep-all-run-off-a-cliff/comment-page-1/#comment-6061</link>
		<dc:creator>Paddy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:24:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/colloquy/2007/11/20/may-these-sheep-all-run-off-a-cliff/#comment-6061</guid>
		<description>I think Qunta and co would argue that they are also driven by principles.  For me it’s an intense loathing of hypocrisy – and the inability to identify that behavior in our actions. Your point on the evolutionary role groups played in small communal living is valid.

A simple example of this hypocrisy is why do the religious overwhelmingly want the death penalty and oppose abortion while liberals oppose the death penalty but support abortion?

Choose any conflict situation anywhere in the world and look at the hypocrisy between the local antagonists, their international supporters and detractors through the AU, EU, UN etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Qunta and co would argue that they are also driven by principles.  For me it’s an intense loathing of hypocrisy – and the inability to identify that behavior in our actions. Your point on the evolutionary role groups played in small communal living is valid.</p>
<p>A simple example of this hypocrisy is why do the religious overwhelmingly want the death penalty and oppose abortion while liberals oppose the death penalty but support abortion?</p>
<p>Choose any conflict situation anywhere in the world and look at the hypocrisy between the local antagonists, their international supporters and detractors through the AU, EU, UN etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah Britten</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/colloquy/2007/11/20/may-these-sheep-all-run-off-a-cliff/comment-page-1/#comment-6045</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah Britten</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:52:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/colloquy/2007/11/20/may-these-sheep-all-run-off-a-cliff/#comment-6045</guid>
		<description>If we always judge what is said by who is saying it, then debate becomes pointless. Depending the camp you&#039;re in, you either endorse or discredit the arguments of the usual suspects in a  given debate. So neither Mangcu or Qunta will ever have anything new to say; in essence when know what they will argue before we&#039;ve read the first sentence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If we always judge what is said by who is saying it, then debate becomes pointless. Depending the camp you&#8217;re in, you either endorse or discredit the arguments of the usual suspects in a  given debate. So neither Mangcu or Qunta will ever have anything new to say; in essence when know what they will argue before we&#8217;ve read the first sentence.</p>
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		<title>By: Native</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/colloquy/2007/11/20/may-these-sheep-all-run-off-a-cliff/comment-page-1/#comment-6044</link>
		<dc:creator>Native</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:20:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/colloquy/2007/11/20/may-these-sheep-all-run-off-a-cliff/#comment-6044</guid>
		<description>On second thoughts, I think group-think can be to the advantage of the individual.  If you read &quot;Confessions of an Economic Hitman&quot; by Perkins you begin to see the manner in which groups can work in concert in pursuance of their goals and to the disadvantage of other groups.  I guess the same applied in mediaeval times.  As a member of a tribe you had to follow tribal rules in order to benefit from the protection of the tribe.  I’m sure when it was time to raid the next village you wouldn’t dare to challenge your group about the morality of doing so.  You did what a man had to do in pursuance of the group’s prosperity and/or survival.  

My sense is that the Quntas and their ilk are lashing out simply because they see a concerted effort by other groups to undermine and/or exploit the development of their continent.  Their responses are not necessarily based on principles.  They would like to see themselves as realists as opposed to those of us who come across as naïve by stressing the importance of principles.  Therefore, the Mangcus of my tribe can pontificate as much as they want, they may not change anything.  After all, the subjects of their criticism know where these guys come from.  They are aware of the basic principles they are trying to uphold.  But they regard a man sticking to principles as a weak man.  Quite possibly, some of Riaan’s folk think the same.  It’s a conundrum…</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On second thoughts, I think group-think can be to the advantage of the individual.  If you read &#8220;Confessions of an Economic Hitman&#8221; by Perkins you begin to see the manner in which groups can work in concert in pursuance of their goals and to the disadvantage of other groups.  I guess the same applied in mediaeval times.  As a member of a tribe you had to follow tribal rules in order to benefit from the protection of the tribe.  I’m sure when it was time to raid the next village you wouldn’t dare to challenge your group about the morality of doing so.  You did what a man had to do in pursuance of the group’s prosperity and/or survival.  </p>
<p>My sense is that the Quntas and their ilk are lashing out simply because they see a concerted effort by other groups to undermine and/or exploit the development of their continent.  Their responses are not necessarily based on principles.  They would like to see themselves as realists as opposed to those of us who come across as naïve by stressing the importance of principles.  Therefore, the Mangcus of my tribe can pontificate as much as they want, they may not change anything.  After all, the subjects of their criticism know where these guys come from.  They are aware of the basic principles they are trying to uphold.  But they regard a man sticking to principles as a weak man.  Quite possibly, some of Riaan’s folk think the same.  It’s a conundrum…</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah Britten</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/colloquy/2007/11/20/may-these-sheep-all-run-off-a-cliff/comment-page-1/#comment-6038</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah Britten</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:32:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/colloquy/2007/11/20/may-these-sheep-all-run-off-a-cliff/#comment-6038</guid>
		<description>Daniel, I was expressing an opinion - last time I checked, that was allowed. I didn&#039;t call for that blog to be shut down. The writer of course has a right to express himself, just as I have a right to declare that he comes across as a complete and utter moron whilst doing so. 

As for relevance,  I think that the irgnorance and self-righteousness demonstrated in that blog entry (by a South African) speaks to our assumption in these rarified circles that everyone has the same levels of education and associated understanding. But they don&#039;t, so we should not be surprised when issues such as an inability to engage appropriately with Maas&#039;s column arise. 

The fact that evolution is still controversial in South African education is only an added reminder of how backward we are when it comes to anything remotely controversial from a religious standpoint. And we have the cheek to chuckle at the Americans when they erect creationist museums featuring models of children in dioramas with dinosaurs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel, I was expressing an opinion &#8211; last time I checked, that was allowed. I didn&#8217;t call for that blog to be shut down. The writer of course has a right to express himself, just as I have a right to declare that he comes across as a complete and utter moron whilst doing so. </p>
<p>As for relevance,  I think that the irgnorance and self-righteousness demonstrated in that blog entry (by a South African) speaks to our assumption in these rarified circles that everyone has the same levels of education and associated understanding. But they don&#8217;t, so we should not be surprised when issues such as an inability to engage appropriately with Maas&#8217;s column arise. </p>
<p>The fact that evolution is still controversial in South African education is only an added reminder of how backward we are when it comes to anything remotely controversial from a religious standpoint. And we have the cheek to chuckle at the Americans when they erect creationist museums featuring models of children in dioramas with dinosaurs.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/colloquy/2007/11/20/may-these-sheep-all-run-off-a-cliff/comment-page-1/#comment-6024</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2007 13:41:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/colloquy/2007/11/20/may-these-sheep-all-run-off-a-cliff/#comment-6024</guid>
		<description>What is not considered is that it is a very small percentage of christians, or afrikaners who protested, but they did have a potential effect on the Rapport financially. The problem is that by the broad phrasing used in this column and others all christians who speak afrikaans are included, regarded of race and background. This issue should never have been allowed to become a religious debate. The decision was made on a financial basis. The fact that the topic was religious in nature is merely convenient for all who wants a forum to trash christians. 

Had he been a columnist writing racially charged material the dismissal would have received loud applause from this forum. Nothing stops another paper from hiring him, or even that he be invited to share his views on Thought Leader. But even here there is a rating system that shows the most popular contributors. What happens to the contributor whose work is rarely viewed? Maas was just not popular with the majority of readers.

BTW. Ndumiso, Riaan is giving me a fair platform, for that I respect him. Your intolerance is showing though. (refer to first post)

I have also shown intolerance per se for Riaan&#039;s approach, but was hoping that the tone of this discussion be moved away from trashing the image of good people who do not deserve the label attached to them. I was clearly mistaken, tolerance is a dying art. Sarah Britten&#039;s attack is case in point. Sorry Sarah, but he has access to a pc, and has an opinion, albeit slightly off target. Your post should have been disallowed, as it contributed nothing, it just anonymously attacked another whom you clearly believe to be of lower station......enlightenment I suppose.

Oh dear, I am ranting again. Sorry Ndumiso....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is not considered is that it is a very small percentage of christians, or afrikaners who protested, but they did have a potential effect on the Rapport financially. The problem is that by the broad phrasing used in this column and others all christians who speak afrikaans are included, regarded of race and background. This issue should never have been allowed to become a religious debate. The decision was made on a financial basis. The fact that the topic was religious in nature is merely convenient for all who wants a forum to trash christians. </p>
<p>Had he been a columnist writing racially charged material the dismissal would have received loud applause from this forum. Nothing stops another paper from hiring him, or even that he be invited to share his views on Thought Leader. But even here there is a rating system that shows the most popular contributors. What happens to the contributor whose work is rarely viewed? Maas was just not popular with the majority of readers.</p>
<p>BTW. Ndumiso, Riaan is giving me a fair platform, for that I respect him. Your intolerance is showing though. (refer to first post)</p>
<p>I have also shown intolerance per se for Riaan&#8217;s approach, but was hoping that the tone of this discussion be moved away from trashing the image of good people who do not deserve the label attached to them. I was clearly mistaken, tolerance is a dying art. Sarah Britten&#8217;s attack is case in point. Sorry Sarah, but he has access to a pc, and has an opinion, albeit slightly off target. Your post should have been disallowed, as it contributed nothing, it just anonymously attacked another whom you clearly believe to be of lower station&#8230;&#8230;enlightenment I suppose.</p>
<p>Oh dear, I am ranting again. Sorry Ndumiso&#8230;.</p>
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