I’ve had it with the men in this country and their Neanderthal views toward women — whether in relationships, from the judiciary or Parliament — the workplace or motherhood.
Women constitute more than half the workforce in this country and overwhelmingly carry the burden of child rearing. There are more single mothers than women in marriages, yet few men pay maintenance, never mind playing a role in the lives of their children. A little respect and gratitude would be in order but instead we carry the highest rates of rape, domestic violence and femicide in the world. That is not to mention workplace exploitation.
Among those men, one would hope that some use intellect to manage their lives — businessmen. But there we also get 1930s attitudes toward women as revealed in a poll on Fin24.com’s website for the movers and shakers in South African business:
Vote
Q: Does motherhood harm careers?
Yes, employers discriminate — 34%
No, it doesn’t affect your career — 9%
Mothers shouldn’t be working — 56%
Who voted in the final category? I’m sure some women voted there too but most would have been men. What world do they live in, I wonder?
As a male friend, Pat Capel, who lives in England observed after seeing that poll: “There is something ironic in the idea that motherhood is not real work or men thinking that mothers should not work.” He pointed out the difficulties some of his friends in England face where the woman, who may have greater earning potential than the man, stays at home with the child because childcare is too expensive and so one crucial income is lost while she uses her graduate skills to change nappies and warm bottles.
South Africa has rapidly moved toward the same situation: after years of saying domestic work is demeaning, we now have millions of unemployed women who lack the benefit of caring employers who help pay for groceries, medical bills and school fees. Many more women can’t find good child care for their children, so they drop out of the workforce — so many are dropping out in the US, it is becoming a national problem — and corporates blithely ignore requests to subsidise child care or have such facilities on premises.
Do those men that voted “Mothers should not be working” not realise that if mothers don’t work the economy would collapse? Are they oblivious to the fact that 60% to 80% of farming in developing nations is conducted by women, often with babies strapped to their backs? What would happen to global food security (already tenuous) if mothers stopped working?
The Businesswomen’s Association of South Africa presented research in 2008 that showed there are more women in government employment than men — 649 718 women compared with 536 688 men (that poll also showed women earn less and are in less senior positions than men). So if mothers didn’t work, our already inefficient civil service would collapse. Women form a significant part of our police service, predominate in courts as prosecutors and dominate the media. A growing percentage is some of our finest judges, and they account for one-third of politicians.
What those who voted for in the “Mothers shouldn’t be working” category display is not only astonishing ignorance of society and life, but also the many ways in which men fail as parents.
The United Nations Population Fund shows that every year of a mother’s education corresponds to a 5% to 10% lower mortality rate in children under the age of five. In South Africa where, disgracefully, our maternal mortality and infant mortality rates are already on the rise (and contributing to lower economic ratings for the country) we need to be cognisant of that.
Yet the UNPF reports that in most countries women risk dismissal should they become pregnant and experience less overall job security and income than men. Isn’t there something wrong with this picture? If globally one-third of marriages end in divorce and one in two in South Africa, shouldn’t employers ensure that women have more job security and higher incomes than men? If women are responsible for our future in terms of how we raise our children, should they earn more than men — and if not, why?
Robert Morrell and Linda Richter of the Human Sciences Research Council show in Baba: Men and Fatherhood in South Africa, that in Umlazi, Durban, for example, only 7 000 out of 67 000 people ordered by the courts to pay maintenance complied in 2002. In the same year, district courts received 372 000 complaints of maintenance default in the Durban area alone. These figures are repeated across South Africa.
Across Southern Africa those living in the direst poverty are single mothers and their children. But lousy fatherhood is a classless situation; wealthy men are often the worst, as they have the financial means to pay expensive lawyers and bribe court officials to ensure that their failure to pay maintenance can never be contested.
Maintenance investigators, in place since 2003, have fewer powers than the sheriff of the court; in 2005 there were only 104 of them.
Because men shirk responsibilities, the state (taxpayer) has to fork out. In 2005, social grants accounted for 3,5% of GDP, and 20% of the population relied on these to survive, according to Minister of Finance Trevor Manuel. The child support grant is the biggest slice of social grants.
A 2002 commission of inquiry into a comprehensive system of social security in South Africa, the Taylor report, found that in the absence of a comprehensive social security programme, 58% of South African households would fall below the R40 subsistence line. By 2004, the HSRC revealed that 57% of South Africans lived in poverty — most of them women with children.
Richter and Morrell noted too that 25% of children are sexually abused each year (most often by incest) and only 20% of fathers who were not married to the child’s mother at the time of the infant’s birth are in contact with their child by the time he or she reaches the age of 11.
And then we have this article in today’s papers:
Father jailed for raping daughter 20 August 2008
Age saved a father, on Tuesday, from a life sentence for twice raping his own teenage daughter. Cape High Court Judge Rodger Cleaver said the fact that the man would be 80 on his release from prison if life imprisonment were imposed, justified a less severe sentence.
He said life imprisonment was extremely severe, and had to be reserved for extreme cases.
Cleaver instead jailed the 60-year-old for 15 years. An aggravating factor was that the girl had fallen pregnant after the second rape, forcing her as a child under the age of 16, to have to make adult decisions for the benefit of her baby.
The judge said the girl had … expressed understandable bitterness towards her father, and had in fact asked the court that he never be released from prison.
Judge Cleaver said the father and mother had enjoyed a good relationship, with the mother unaware of what was going on. The judge added: “even when the girl informed her mother about what was happening, the mother would not believe her”.
It was only when the girl became pregnant that her mother finally believed her.
Judge Cleaver said Parliament had ordained a minimum sentence of life imprisonment for the rape of a child under the age of 16. He said the courts had been urged to apply the minimum sentences consistently, and not to deviate and pass less severe sentences for flimsy reasons.
He said a court could only deviate from a prescribed sentence if the sentence was unjust and too harsh in the circumstances.
Who is Judge Cleaver and how does he come to this appalling set of conclusions? Why is the Cape Bench packed with such poor examples of the judiciary?
If raping and impregnating your daughter is not an extreme violation, then what is?
I’ve had it with South African men, I’m sick of the disrespect, the bar-room jokes about women, the rampant sexism, the failure to assume parenting responsibilities and those with power whether in the boardroom, judiciary or Parliament not honouring those who nurture the future.
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41 Responses to “I’ve had it with the men in this country”
@Charlene
1. Does Judge Cleaver represent all men? So why are you blaming all men for his nonsense?
2. I thought that in this blog you mentioned the stay-at-home mom problem being a universal phenomenon including the US and the UK. How did this sunddenly become a South African problem?
Your emotions are showing up funny. Whilst I agree that men haven’t done the right thing, you blog is just disappointing. Try again.
Must say I’ve just about had with this old chestnut.
Woman play an enormous role in world but it is no better nor more important than that of men.
But I must admit to tiring of hearing the same old whining of how tough it is in a man’s world.
In fact its close to the old ‘race card’ that gets used at almost every opportunity - but not by ALL
I dont see many men getting away with much in relation to the modern educated woman - in fact quite the opposite.
Even the law has an enormous bias these days which many unscrupulous woman abuse at will - but not ALL.
No-one denies we (Men & Woman) have far to go to stop the senseless abuse of our dear children.
Just yesterday while eating out with my family in a well known franchise steakery I heard the cries of toddler. A few minutes later I heard it again, but this time it was obvious the child was being hurt.
I watched a young father smacking, then pushing an 18 month olds head agressively - he was clearly out of control.
Nearby tables (Woman & Men) chose not to hear the furore.
My wife and got up and suggested to the young father that he shouldnt be hitting the baby on the head (by this time). His wife sat saying nothing.
Needless to say the snotneus became upset and abusive to my wife as did his male friend.
The advantages of my being 6ft4″ and 110kgs averted what could have been a very ugly incident.
My point being that men and woman were to blame for the scenario and it took a man and woman to end it.
to charlene, i say ‘amen!’
James Tobias, men and women do indeed carry their degrees of blame (a woman should NEVER even consider NOT believing her daughter when she says she is even just being touched ‘funny strange’ by her father, uncle, or whomever!) but the degree to which men and women could contribute to the amelioration of the bad situation differ. Women have been pretty outspoken about how nasty things are. When women agitate for change, they are labeled ‘whiners’, anti-tradition (whatever that means) and therefore sell-outs… they get insulted even. What your wife did, Tobias, shows that even against these odds, women keep doing their bit. In those cases where the woman does nothing (like the mother of the child being hit over the head - or even the mother who chooses not to believe her sexually abused daughter) I’ll wager there’s a bigger problem than mere apathy. These are women who live with abusive monsters passing for men! In all likelihood, they have been or are being abused themselves. In which case they would have been rendered almost irrelevant with respect to saving/protecting their own children.
In Tobias’s wife’s case though, she has a man who is willing to also stand up and be counted when it counts. If only more men did what they are capable of doing to make all the wrongs Charlene points out right; if many more men were willing to use their brains, their brawn, their influence, their charm, their power, their effort, their time; if many many more men were willing to twirl whatever wand it is that has ensured they are overwhelmingly the sex that is both on top and at the centre - if they could use this wand to effect gender equality, and to clean out the rot of abuse, why, the world would be a much better place!
For as long as the majority of the perpetrators of the ugly are men; and for as long as the majority of men choose to be bystanders; for as long as the judge Cleavers of this world find incestous rape but a ‘flimsy’ act; for as long as the judge Cleavers place the comfort of the criminal over true justice for the unspeakably defiled child - why, we are in trouble. And if the Cleavers be men, the criminals men, the bystanders with the potential to change things men, we shall keep saying ‘Amen’ to negative male generalisations. By Charlene. By anybody.
The generalisations will end if, and only if, men like James Tobias work with other men - and the long perservering women- to form a movement to put a stop to the gender filth, once and for all. No spurious isolated incidences of right-doing, but an unstoppable wave for gender justice for all. who knows, it might be what ultimately saves troubled Africa.
My wife sometimes call me her Neanderthal man.Most of the time it is said with a smile.I can see why people voted,”mothers shouldn’t be working” Mothers are working!In fact, it is the most important job isn’t it.If most men is honest i think they would prefer their wives to raise their kids!
But life is hard and these days couples can’t make it with just the man’s salary.
Charlene, what about the tale of the Khayelitsha-based cop who fondled a woman who had just been gang-raped because, he said, her nudity was arousing him?
What about the nine men who’ll appear in court on Friday charged with being part of a mob of 20 who kicked, stoned and beat a young woman to death because she was a lesbian?
What about those nine men’s families, who I’ve watched sitting in court waving and smiling at them, and sneering at witnesses?
Welcome to the patriarchy. You will be lambasted for this post, of course, because your “generalisations” touch a nerve. Women will also slate you, you know. That’s how deeply ingrained it all is. I wish there was some solution to inequity and misogyny, but I’m starting to believe there isn’t. Maybe we should just hope that some bloke accidentally pushes the button soon and blows us all up so some other species can try again!
I am a father, a husband and a male in South Africa and the same way that you take offence to being regarded as a dumb blonde braud, I take offence to being lumped in with sexists and idiots. It’s a good thing you haven’t had it with slow-witted people who generalize to try and create stories where there are none.
Charlene, just back from the Games. Can I interest you in a date with a Kazakhstani female wrestler? She looks like a man but she does not need to lift the seat when she has a wee.
Or am I now generalising (like you)that you are either a Lesbian or maybe having PMS. Pick one.
Let’s see what I can say about what irritate me about the modern woman:
1. They do not know that it is polite to say “Thank you” when a man opens the door for you, lets you through a narrow passage first or keeps the lift door open for you.
2. How many woman I see driving kids around, cellphone on the ear and the child as young as 5 sitting on the front seat, and that without a Safety belt.
3. Women who treat men with disrespect and like to whine that they have not achieved a goal because “It’s a man’s world”
4. Women who dump their babies down toilets, leave them in dustbins or on busses.
5. Women trash their cars because the don’t know that a visit to a filling station should include a check of the tyre pressure, Oil and water.
I can go on but I also know that everyone is different and everyone has different morals and values.
I hope you just had a bad day. Women are better at some things in general and men are better at women at some things in general, but that is not always the rule.
Back to the wrestler, she has a nasty habit of leaving her sweaty panties on the bathroom floor if that’s OK.
You say: “The United Nations Population Fund shows that every year of a mother’s education corresponds to a 5% to 10% lower mortality rate in children under the age of five”. Conclusion: “every year less spend on a mother’s education would result in 5% to 10% higher mortality rate in children under age five”. One cheap way of population control in an already over populated world.
Your article goes gladly over women who want children and are happy to take it on without the man who was happily used to conceived the child and -when in financial trouble coerce another man into solving the problem. For every woman abused there is probably a man abused.
For your next article on the subject, please call in the services of a moderator.
I have had it with your type of woman! Luckily there are so many others.
I suppose Fin.24 comes from the Media.24 stable which has been fined for cooking their seculation figures in some of their titles. I suppose this numbers are also cooked. Why be emotional about these cooked numbers? I don’t believe they are true.
Interesting article. Who trains men to be men if not their mothers? Why do we equate the worth of women with the income they generate? Isn’t the state of our nation reflective of the fact that we lack moral and carrying leadership? I am venturing to suggest that we need to reassess what we value as the highest priority in our country right now and whilst job creation and productivity are obviously important I would say that the fabric of our society, its norms and values should perhaps be prioritised and redesigned by our women. After all women carry, nurture and inform the future of our countries citizens. However when women themselves submit to the political will of men as the ANC women’s league recently displayed then I worry more about the future of our country than I did before. Truth is that by not demanding their rightful place in our society it is women who are letting not only themselves down but the country as well.
If you, as an intellectual exercise, try to separate your femaleness from the rest of your middle-class personality, you might remember how your parents and grandparents grew up.
Those were the days when the husband went to work and the wife stayed at home and raised the kids.
Because mothers weren’t even trying to find jobs, the official unemployment rate was close to zero. Employers paid fair wages which could allow an ordinary working man to raise a family of four or five kids on only one salary, albeit at a scrimp-and-save, second-hand everything, economising level. Just like the families on either side next door.
Today we expect to all live as extravagantly as the factory owner with new everything and at a top address, even if we have the same modest job.
The only way we can do this is to have fewer — or even no — children, to have the wife go out to work too and to rack up large debts on mortgages HP and credit cards.
All those childless women no longer mothering a brood of children and rather competing for scarce jobs now means unemployment is now at 40%; household debt, even on two salaries, is astronomical and the one or kids are overwhelmingly “latch-key” kids and increasingly delinquent.
So, seen from an overall broad unfeminist view, have “liberated” women created a poorer-but-socially healthier or a affluent-but-socially-sicker society?
If we are socially-sicker, can we possibly find the cure in simply having more of the same?
If you put your feminist hat back on, you’d say “yes” in a heartbeat.
If you keep your head fem-hatless and clear, you’d probably have to admit that those old days when Dad’s wage paid for all the bills for the modest lifestyle and where Mum wasn’t working but she raised the kids really was a golden age.
Having raised 2 children, it would benefit the mother and the children if the family could afford for the mother to stay home and raise the children (especially in the early years). That is the ideal situation. So I would have voted for ‘Mother’s should not be working’.
However, the reality of needing combined incomes for a family to survive and prosper dictates that most women have to work - hence we have a breakdown in ‘values’ as children are not being taught about family values properly. They are being raised by a less caring system creating less caring adults.
But the 56% who voted for ‘Mother’s should not be working’ were correct, in the ideal world.
I’ve always been mystified by the notion that staying at home to look after the children is “natural” when throughout history, women have worked (gathering food, tilling the fields and so on), and it was only in wealthier households that women had the luxury of staying at home - and even then, childcare was the job of a nanny, wetnurse or governess. The stay-at-home mom is a middle class twentieth century construct.
Charlene
Motherhood is not an unskilled job. Education starts at home and the first 6 years of a child’s life are vital. Sure some woman work with kids strapped to their back but few of their kids have developed the cognitive skills to design jet engines. It is also my experience that most woman with children see the home as their main responsibility so in that way their outside career will inevitably (on aggregate) be compromised. The same as for a man that prioritised time to voluntarily work on community projects. It is the rare person of any sex that can multi-focus and achieve on multiple fronts at the same rate as those dedicated to a single cause. The points about lack of maintenance and violence are valid but may also be contributed to by a lack of proper upbringing by mothers pulled in too many directions. So the wheel turns.
Fear and self-interest determines our view on August 21st, 2008 at 4:26 am
Charlene, why not embrace positive journalism? Laud men with attributes that society can admire and emulate. Also accept the views of right of men and woman to be traditional and different from some politically correct concept if they so choose.
I agree that maintenance shirkers should be nailed hard. Not being South African I am not sure of your law but do know that here they have recently revised manintenance laws in the favour of the principal breadwinner. The overboard laws having been heavily in favour of winner and representing a kind of moral justification for the bread-winner to default.
Fear and self-interest determines our view on August 21st, 2008 at 5:43 am
@pinkie
“When women agitate for change, they are labeled ‘whiners’, anti-tradition (whatever that means) and therefore sell-outs… they get insulted even.”
This is your assumption and generalisation.
Woman who agitate for change (and heres the qualifier) for the betterment of ALL woman are to be lauded.
The whiners do nothing nor bring anything to the table apart from generalisations.
I have no problem to woman expressing their views on men, be it whining, or praising (Amen’s), but they must expect a reaction from the majority of men who do ‘provide’ in the traditional and modern sense.
We have earnt the right to express our opinion when we are challenged or bad-mouthed by the ‘fairer sex’, just as we will protect our children, wifes, mothers and brothers.
Everything in this world can be reduced to the very same common denominator ie men and woman, but that doesnt automatically mean one or the other is responsible as a whole.
Surely it is not difficult to acknowledge the fact that raising children SUCCESSFULLY is the toughest and most important job in the world.
Some woman stay at home and perform this incredibly difficult task of being a successful mother. Other woman delegate their responsibilities as mothers to child minders. Allow your intuition to kick in, and ask yourself which is the better option.
anton kleinschmidt on August 21st, 2008 at 7:44 am
So many predictable responses, but some with real wisdom, thank you.
So much harm to so many women and children in our society cannot be ended by just one judge (who failed), it cannot be blamed on just one poll although the responses to it provide a barometer of attitude those who respond so narrowly to a well-sourced contribution need to ask themselves why do they react with such anger and leap to protect clear failures in masculinity?
Women and children are being harmed in staggering numbers in this country by fundamental repetitive failures from men who see themselves as good but fail to speak out and act against harm.
They may, occasionally, stand up when harm is visible but they don’t interroage the root. And they most often fail to do anything when there are not others around who will witness and applaud their act.
And these would be, primarily,men who would subscribe to the traditional view of men as protectors.
Precisely who are what is being protected?
Your second paragraph reads “Women constitute more than half the workforce in this country”. It would seem that you are therefore a majority and should be in control? Regretfully, like anyone in for the free ride, it’s easier to blame someone else for your own failure. So yes, it’s because you are female or black. Get over yourself, move on and do something about it.
What I always enjoy about these types of articles is the flood of comments saying ‘What about the men?’. A couple of points:
It is ok to talk about women, women’s issues and things that affect women without specific disclaimers for the men out there who happen not to be abusive, sexist, maintenance shirkers etc. This is an article by a woman, about issues that affect her and other women. There is no need to have a seperate paragraph saying ‘Of course, many of these things (rape and child abuse, particularly) also affect men. *of course they do*, and these issues are equally important. But what is it about society that we feel that a woman cannot express her opinion without you all wanting a giant disclaimer saying : Note: this does not apply to nice guys, people who care for their children, people who do not rape, who do not objectify women etc etc.
Secondly, accept that although you might be a nice guy, overwhelmingly violence is gendered, and as a society we need to be able to accept this in order to be able to deal with it. Neutral language is not doing anyone any good. For example- it is overwhelmingly men who rape. There is no way of getting around that. Men rape women,children of both genders, and other men, far, far more often that women do. Accept it. Don’t run from it by saying “But I’m a nice guy who doesn’t!” Great- good for you. Unfortunately for ever women who gets raped (what is it, once every three seconds?) the fact that *you* are a nice guy doesn’t actually seem to have helped, does it. Women should be allowed to voice their anger and disgust at the state of a society that allows this type of thing without having to worry, on top of everything, about offending ‘the nice guys’. If you are such a nice guy then surely you accept that women have a right to voice their anger at a system that lets them down, time and time again?
@ Scarface- oh how hilarious and clever of you to bring the butch lesbian stereotype into the discussion. I am sure it has raised the level of engagement tenfold. First up: all women are women, all women are valuable, all women have the right to opinions, *including* (shocker!) lesbians, ugly women, butch women etc etc. I have no idea why these arguments always end up with some or other man asserting that for daring to express an opinion, the woman (in this case Charlene) has made herself less desireable to him (ref- Benzol and his ‘I’ve had it with your type of woman’ comment)by expressing a frankly overdue opinion.
My boss in the UK told me that women over a certain age were unlikely to be hired as research scientists because of their increased probability of falling pregnant.
How women can expect to develop careers in science then I do not understand.
I am quite horrified at the misogyny of many of the responses to Charlene’s post, especially those resolved with the sort of arrogant “handy tips” that might issue from some omnipotent Care Bear ombudsman: “Charlene, why not celebrate positive journalism?” Why the hell should she? Does this solve the problem that this blog post addresses?
@Scarface:
Besides your other absurd comments which betray a sense of entitlement in virtue only of your maleness, your denigrating and belittling “joke” that feminism is equivalent to lesbianism is abusive not so much to feminists as it is to lesbians. Your dehumanisation of lesbian women here simply applies your misogyny to a group that is, tragically, a more acceptable target - a minority that is already subject to scorn from men who would rather have women “screwing” them than each other.
Then, @ Owen (and others):
Here’s a thought - why should women automatically stay at home to look after the kids? Why can’t daddy do it?
After all these years of equal education and women dominating results in education we still dont see them achieve as much as men do. How many women have taken a company from startup to listed? How many women have invented the sheer number of life changing technologies we use in our daily lives? Compared to men that pale into insignificance. They are not even on the radar. The only women who are wealthy either married into it, inherit it or entertain us.
Sorry girls, lets call a spade a spade. Even after years of preferential treatment in the workforce and your superior results in school you cant compete with men. Surely, as 50% of the population with all these advantages we should see more from you. You work fewer hours then men. You take more sick leave. You take more general leave. Those are facts. Throw into the mix your constant emotional state that has an impact on your ability to perform as well as men and you have a lot of women who CANT be promoted because it will cost everyone MONEY.
Its a black and white decision half the time and you refuse to accept it. No one ignores you because you are a woman. They want people in power who are going to make them money. THATS IT. They have no confidence in you because so few of you display the traits required to achieve this.
Instead of complaining about how you got looked over for a promotion start your own company. Men do it more often then women do and its the reason why they also make more money then you do. If women were so capable why are they always waiting for men to promote them?
Women are more protected by the law then men are when it comes to children and divorce. Governments put more money into researching diseases which affect women even though you live 10 years longer then us. We are expected to go to war and expected to bend over backwards to accommodate you all the time
I tire of the complaining. When are you going to realise that maybe, just maybe, you are better suited to raising children? God knows men tire of having to accept crap standards from women who simply cannot produce as much as men do.
While a harsh generalisation, please remember that this is a trend Im discussing. Not every women on the planet. There are exceptions although they tend to be rare.
Men do what men do. Women do what women do. Each job is equally important in society. Why the constant need to compete with men all the time? I pity any woman who would rather have a high powered career over a stable family. Most men hate their jobs. They do what they have to because men dont get to choose career or stay at home.
Those that do end up divorced.
Bah, feminist scum. You reap what you sew. 50% divorce rates, single motherhood, soaring teenage girl pregnancies. Its amazing that Charlene can suggest single motherhood is mens fault. Over 70% of divorces are filed for by women. Not men, WOMEN.
Those are facts based on divorce statistics. If 70% of women are the first to call it quits it tells me a few things. Either you expectations of men are warped and unrealistic OR you are a bunch of drama queens watching too much Oprah and playing victim all the time.
@Anthea Buys - Sorry I touched a nerve! I am sick and tired of women calling men all sorts of things but dare a man criticize women, all hell is loose. What I was trying to get at is that Charlene is painting all men with the same brush in a fit of whatever it was - I used the Lesbian example simply to draw the parallel as both are hot topics. So please spare me the insults if you simply saw red and not the point I was trying to make.
Quite frankly, I have a few Lesbian friends around me and although they have problems of another sort, parenting issues for them as couples never seems to raise its head very often.
Sorry if I offended you personally, but the article offended me! It’s OK to show the dark side of men, and not of women. That’s the whole problem. Sex does not guarantee the absence of anything, and that was my point. And thus, Charlene, please don’t make sweeping generalizations.
How weak.
The responses were as predictable as the piece as the writer knows full well.
No-one is disputing that there is an enormous problem in this country with regards woman and child abuse by men. I dont see a single man on this site defending that.
Interesting that you make no mention of the woman who turn a blind eye, yet chose to generalise and tar an entire gender.
Men are protectors just are the woman - its call parenting.
What is being protected is the narrowminded generalisations made by certain niche of the modern woman - not ALL.
I wrote out a nice long detailed response and then I scrapped it. You know why? I realised I have absolutely no faith that my words will even be heeded. Here you’ve written a very justified and reasonable article and men still don’t listen.
I’ve already given up on South African men. I like men and I enjoy their company but I no longer count on them for a single thing and I certainly no longer have high expectations. If they do something good I express my appreciation but I have no expectations that the act will be repeated. That way I’m no longer disappointed. As someone who’s always been the “see the good in everyone” kind of person I’ve learnt from bitter experience that when the chips are down…go to a woman for help. Men talk. Women act.
It is also quite pointless (no pun intended) getting ones knickers in a twist over a poll result.
Poll’s that have a predominance of cultural, ethnic,religous samples will always seem at odds to those on the outside. It doesnt make it wrong or evil and certainly doesnt justify writing off a large segment of the population.
@Charlene - the responses are ‘predictable’ because you start out by tarring all men with your brush. Don’t be surprised then when some get offended and come out on the defensive. I worked for a woman when I was still in South Africa and I had no problem with her being my boss - in fact she was one of the best bosses I have had - even though she was the mother of 2 small children.
Your indignation at the result of the Fin24 survey is ridiculous - when I checked there were approximately 200 respondents in total.
@Po - I know a lot of women who work in Science in the UK - predominantly with the NHS. They are very well protected by the law during interviews and are equally well supported with maternity leave. Plus, my impression of Science over here is that it is a female-dominated environment.
Nah, this all about power! If I look at my mom she is the strongest person I know, other than my wife! And it will be very easy for me to subdue them physically as they are very petite. But men want the power, we want to manipulate and force! And then say it’s how society works. But the real strength is with the women of the world as they are the ones working, men play politics. If we work hard it’s because we want to attain wealth, influence and power.
Race, Class, Gender and boorish males
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Women are not a homogenous group-Neither are men. What you attribute to SA men, sound very universal.
If we introduce the notion of class, and race to the woman’s debate, imagine the outcome. Charlene, you as a “white woman” and (upper) middle class person, have always been more privileged and powerful (and still is) than millions of South African (black) men.
To put the issue of women on the agenda is timely and laudable (when all the new rich sisters are silent) on your part.
Though feminism as a social construct has different meanings to different (wo)men, there is much to glean from, for the betterment of South African women.
South African women (Olive Schreiner, Bessie Head, Albertina Sisulu, Autshumato, Fatima Meer…. (you add to the list) has a rich history of leadership in many sphere of South African life. Also what has happened to the SA women’s movement(s)-can they be of some help?
It appears as if human beings have the propensity to rape but as you allude to, rape is mainly committed by men. Rape, not a sex crime but indicative of powerlessness, (against those with less power) appear to be part of the problem that you trying to show.
Some (wo)men would call Indirah Ghandi, Golda Meir, Eva Peron, Imelda Marcos, Winnie Mandela, Condolesa Rice, men. No they were/are women who in positions of power committed some horrendous actions?
The challenge to (wo)men, market place, government, civil society regarding the attitude towards women in all its showing need more voices such as yours- towards ‘bettering’ the situation.
And what would the nature of that be? –you know best, as women are more intuitive than men (have a laugh girl- oops, sorry, that’s sexist- have a laugh woman)
Is generalising not just stereotyping men!. Am sure men could say a lot of generalisations about women! Like “women will use kids to claim more maintainance (child support) in divorce cases, which money never finds its way to the intended recipients!!”
Discipline and Punish.
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It would be interesting to see the law-reports for the rest of that judgement. The media so often quote a sentence or to without contextualising and following the reasoning of the judgement, i think they should make Criminal Law mandatory in journalism schools otherwise we’re doomed to have lots of ignorant conversation…
Lets imagine the judge’s reasoning though.
I dont think he’s a silly little bastard who sympathises with paedophiles.
Amongst the things considered would have been the following.
1. The circumastances of the case. How did the girl feel about the ‘crime’. What was its nature eg violent, consensual….
2. What good will a harsher sentence do?
If the chap is 60? what is the point of the incarceration exactly.
(a) to protect the victim.
(b) to deter the offender
(c) for retribution
(d) to deter others…
your objection is probably the lack of general deterrence likely to achieved by this judgement but i think the judge’s reasoning is as extraodinary as the circumstances of the case and therefore just.
And on women : Yeah, if its possible why shouldn’t a child be raised by his mom instead of some other lady?
Reading from this article one wanders at what point will women stop playing games , take the responsibility and accountability to their acts without gabling with complaints and playing victimology all the time.
Law :everything is done legally to protect women even being biase to men legally.
even some women claim all the time to have been raped by their husbands, because they no longer giving them love and cheat on them,
the law always protect women by punishing men without going into details underlining just to protect women.
Parenting:if women has got more skills ,why can they go to work and employ a nanny, to baby sit, of course which is good for jobs creation opportunities ,incutting down the unemployment rate , than making noise. You wanted to be equal ,now you are given a position why is it difficuty now to make decision, than moarning
Single parent women:
None of these women has been raped to have children, most of them they just choose to have children even without marriage ,because they are modern women , they want to prove the point. wont behave or listen to the traditional women because they have got rights.
when it come to hardship they dont want to accept the blame , than targerting men as abusers,just pis off!
DiVORCE: some women will always take premature decisions and opt for divorce ,thus single parents or due to their own infedility, thus single parents and thereafter exclamating abuse by men,or else leave from one relationship to the next with children from prevevious relationship when her old behaviour of cheating start, an abused man just turn to her daughter for comfort, thus she shout abuse.
Statistics:
Women are outnumbering men, some they abuse that and fall in a wrong relationship because they just want to have a man regardless of the situation surrounding a man,when things go wrong ,she start shouting abuse.
Just to be brief women has to come into terms with the situations they live in and stop playing games with law, they already fully protected, there is nothing more that can be done for them more than what has already been done for them.
They must learn to behave and adjust to their sociatal norms, therefore be in a position to control their behaviour.
Some they go out wearing almost nothing,naked or like those who are advertising for their customs under red lights and looming the streets and claiming to be exercising their rights in public, which is not really clear because we are sharing the space, therefore you cannt really say any consideration is ever given to those vulnerable men who will inevitable respond to nature stimulus, thus committing crimes.
we do nt look for excuse with regard to these cases, but at the same time consideration must paid to the fact that we are sharing a living space and we must try our best to protect those who are vulnerable.
Rape cases are high but something can be done to cut it down, not only by the courts, but even by the communities, voting for community bounding decisions considering the cutting down of the most precipitating factors.
Like in the moslem world people are aware of their weakness, thus women are asked or expected to cover up their bodies,to resolve an escalations to the kind of problem facing our country.
We cannt ignore the the fact that the world today is very obssesed with pornography, of which the media has to take a blame to that challenge.
Of course children raised by single parents, esp. women are always prone to many social disorders due to the lack of parental control, ranging from crimes as mothers cant control teenagers to others thus problem recycles itself.
If raping and impregnating your daughter is not an extreme violation, then what is?
Yes, that’s definitely an extreme violation. But then, so is lagging behind in your custody.
I must confess, my first reaction to the title of the article was a typical male chauvinist one (oh, here we go, another day another bra burnt). After reading the article, I hung my head in shame.
I shall think twice about sticking up for men in future if that’s the calibre of men we are breeding in South Africa. None of the issues Charlene tackled were unfounded, none of them could be shrugged of as mere feminist hysteria. Shame on us, guys!
let’s face it…South Africa has some of the most appalling abuse statistics in the world. Talk ALL you want. Words can lie, but these numbers don’t.
So, don’t get so sensitive!
She’s just pointing out the general truth but hey, sometimes the truth hurts, doesn’t it? Don’t be the ostrich that sticks it’s head in the sand.
It cannot be denied that South Africa has the highest percentage of rapes and child abuse in the world. These violent crimes, as most violent crimes are usually not perpetrated by women, but, not surprisingly, by men.
While only a small percentage of any society are responsible for the most heinous of crimes, the attitudes that encourage them to move in that direction are deeply engrained in this society….you don’t have to look any further than the typical male response to this column. Men mostly get defensive and their brains stop functioning as defense mechanism kicks in.
Women are forced to play the roles they play by this patriarchal society. It’s very difficult for both men and women who have been conditioned into these roles to penetrate their conditioning because it’s so deep.
Add to that the past racial turmoil and inequality of this country and viola….you have the violent, patriarchal society of today’s South Africa.
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Charlene Smith is a multi-award-winning journalist, author and media consultant. Her latest book is "Committed to Me." She writes for newspapers and magazines in South Africa and internationally and has had 13 books published, one of which was shortlisted for an Alan Paton award.
Television documentaries for which she has worked have also won major international awards.
She has worked as a broadcast journalist and radio-station manager. Smith's areas of expertise are politics, economics, violence, women's and children's issues and HIV and Aids. She is frequently invited to address conferences around the world. www.charlenesmith.net
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@Charlene
1. Does Judge Cleaver represent all men? So why are you blaming all men for his nonsense?
2. I thought that in this blog you mentioned the stay-at-home mom problem being a universal phenomenon including the US and the UK. How did this sunddenly become a South African problem?
Your emotions are showing up funny. Whilst I agree that men haven’t done the right thing, you blog is just disappointing. Try again.
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