Tribalism is the word that must now be spoken. It is being used across Africa to gain political power, to pillage wealth, and it ultimately results in genocide.
The politically correct resist use of the word — though they are least likely to rush to pick up the bodies and heal the wounded when conflict arises. In Rwanda, tribalism is called genocide ideology and ethnographers there no longer use the labels Hutu or Tutsi.
Tribalism is another form of that old political favourite: divide and rule. The Germans used it to breed hatred against Jews in Nazi Germany, whites used it against blacks in apartheid South Africa, the Tutsis used it against Hutus in Rwanda, and it was used to divided Serb and Croat in Bosnia and Kosovo. In Somalia, where there are no tribes, warlords use the next best — clans. In Kenya, the Kikuyu have used it to secure wealth and power over the 41 other tribes in that country. At present, the Luo are trying to oust them so they too can have power and privilege.
In South Africa, Jacob Zuma has built KwaZulu-Natal as the strongest ANC region; previously it was the Xhosa Eastern Cape. He now wanders around in skins and does tribal dances. Perhaps we need to ask: Is this charming or potentially dangerous?
Those who drew up South Africa’s Constitution, which urges us to celebrate diversity, were careful to ensure respect for South Africa’s 11 languages. The South African Broadcasting Corporation now has radio stations in 11 vernacular languages as well as English and Afrikaans. Was this thoughtful or does it encourage ethnic division and disable the education of children in a globalised world where English predominates?
The Nairobi Women’s Hospital, as an example, has forbidden the speaking of vernacular among staff, especially in front of patients during the present political crisis. For a Luo patient who has been hacked or raped by Kikuyu, or vice versa, it is terrifying to hear medical staff speak in the language of the attacker, so staff speak only English or Kiswahili.
Graham Robb, in his new book, The Discovery of France, notes in a chapter on tribes how in 1790, Abbe Henri Gregoire surveyed how many citizens of France could speak French. His survey showed six million citizens could not speak French, a further six million could barely conduct a conversation in it, and only 11% of French — or three million — could properly speak the language. Seventy years later, 53 out of 89 departements — regions of France — could still not speak adequate French. All these different languages and dialects were a mark of the tribes of France.
Gregoire realised that France could not be united nor reach its potential unless a universal language was spoken. “In the land of a thousand tongues, monolingualism became the mark of the educated person,” Robb writes. Developing a unifying language saw it become a peaceful, cultural paradise and one of the great nations of the world.
In developing nations, tourism encourages tribalism. While academics scoff at tribalism, they are most likely to “go African” when they visit here. Blonde hair is plaited into dreadlocks, Reeboks are discarded for Masai sandals, Brookes Brothers shirts are discarded for Java prints that are, wrongly, seen as traditionally African. They proudly speak of a friend who is a Kikuyu princess or a Swazi prince, although royal titles are a dime a dozen in Africa.
They go to restaurants and eat so-called African foods, although the average villager from the areas those foods claim to come from would never recognise the meal. “Tribal villages” and dances are created.
Tribalism is profitable but it warps ethnic identity. The reed dance has no place in traditional Zulu culture, but is now a tourist tool and a way of repressing women. It fosters an ethnic identity that often owes less to real culture and historical reality than money-making fictions for tourist markets. When tribal conflict breaks out, tourists are the first to flee and the slowest to return.
In South Africa, the Zulu are seen as a brave warrior tribe — but the Sotho, Tswana and others also had heroic warriors, one of whom was a warrior queen who ruled most of the Free State in the 19th century, yet we never hear of her or them. It’s strange how warmongers go down in history as greater figures than those who develop strong, stable societies.
Tribalism in the 21st century is about creating a lever for political advantage. It pays scant respect to historical or cultural fact and propagates myth to divide and subjugate.
Lucy Oriang, writing in Kenya’s Daily Nation on Friday January 18, observed: “Some people may want to blame [Kenya’s brutalisation] on the colonial divide-and-rule policy that allocated special status to some groups and dismissed others as being of no consequence. But there is a generation or two of Kenyans who did not live the colonial experience. At some point we will have to grow up and own up to our mistakes. We chose tribal politics because it suited our prejudices.”
Lukoye Atwoli, a psychiatrist writing in the same publication, also on January 18, talks of the effects of tribal conflict on children in Kenya. “Children are repeating disturbing ethnic stereotypes with ease … It promises that what is happening in Kenya today will happen again in 15 or 20 years’ time. When these children are strong enough to wield machetes, clubs or even guns, they will loot, they will kill and they will rape in pursuit of what [they believe] is rightfully theirs. They will make anyone who comes from a different community a target whenever they feel aggrieved.”
A 10-year-old boy who witnessed his father being cut into pieces in Nairobi told the writer he now wanted to kill. A 20-year-old man, forced to watch his mother and two sisters being raped and then murdered before the house was torched, expressed similar views — but none of the wealthy international aid agencies in Kenya is helping these people heal, and despite brave efforts by some Kenyan agencies they are overstretched.
Healing is a long-term process. Fourteen years after the 1994 genocide, Rwanda’s Parliament last week called for an extraordinary session to discuss the return of “genocide ideology” in society. It is most apparent in schools where teachers are finding letters from students saying, as an example: “They [people of another group] are snakes. We are fed up with them and will kill them.” These are sentiments astonishingly similar to those heard in the 1994 genocide from children not yet born or infants when the slaughter took place.
Some analysts have suggested that it is only in societies where equality and opportunity are the norm that ethnic differences can safely be highlighted. But perhaps the real message is that every time we categorise another — whether as a woman, a man, disabled, black, white, Chinese, Pedi, Jewish, Muslim — we create division and a basis for discrimination.
Ultimately we are all simple, flawed people — different traditions can be fascinating, but they need to be seen as novel ways of doing things and not mechanisms that separate groups.
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52 Responses to “Tribalism is the word that must now be spoken — to avoid its perils”
Ms Smith, I fail to understand the purpose of this article. You are giving us a history lesson about things that happened in Rwanda and Kenya etc. but somehow I fail to understand what relevance they have for us living in South Africa. You level a few accusations against Zulus that leave me in no doubt that you actually have little knowledge of the dynamics of the politics of that area called KwaZulu Natal. You speak of Jacob Zuma ‘wearing skins’ and doing ‘tribal dances.’ Mr Zuma was not wearing skins and doing tribal dances. He was getting married. That is what people do in KZN when they are getting married. I have been to countless of these. I have never heard anybody making a tribal declaration before they do this.
And then you make other statements about Zulus being thought of as warriors. What is the point of this exactly? Have you ever heard the self-same Zulus suppressing other stories of heroism about other tribes in South Africa?
Ms Smith, I dare say, you did not think through your article. It is pointless and an insult to thinking South Africans. I truly do not believe you were in the moment when you were writing this. Come now, say something intelligent.
I think you miss the fact that tribalism is alive and well in all parts of the world. Firstly it is a counter to globalisation, secondly even weathly single language countries have tribal problems.
Put a Scotsman and an Englishmen together in trying times and see what happens. The Scottish have recently won some more seperate powers from England. They are still fighting for their independence. The Basrc(?) region in Spain, etc
In Africa the colnonial borders broke tribes up forcing minorities in many countries. Hence the east africa disaster area. If I am not mistaken Hutu’s live in DRC, Burundi, Rwanda, Kenya and Uganda. Try getting the English to do the same?
The sooner Africa changes its border to reflect tribal balances in a federal union(s) of some sort the better.
The ANC should have had to forsight to elect a non Xhosa or Zulu to its president to avoid possible tribal conflict as both tribes have had their turn at leading the party.
Most other political parties in SA are tribal based. Even the DA has its roots in the English and Afrikaner tribes.
Tribalisn like other ism’s is not an issue in the good times as people are more tolerant.
Good piece. Being a non-Kikuyu Kenyan I agree minus the thought that the Luos now want power for privillege sake.
On the contrary, the biggest problem in Kenya is what Kikuyu-born best known Kenyan writer, Ngugi wa Thiongo called in his earlier books as children of the home guards.
Home guards were people used by the colonialists to suppress communities by confining them in communes.
As a result of working for the colonialists, they had privilleges others did not have. Say they had their children sent to schools and these are the people who later formed the pool of administrators for the newly independent nation.
Morality would have made them act as the elder brother in a fatherless homestead.
Instead they, turned to plundering, looting of national resources and nepotism and to a smaller extent, tribalism, where gullible tribesmate were given menial preferences so as to provide that tribal safeguard should others (tribes) appear ambitious.
With time, Kenyans have come to see the anomaly and have agitated to have our constitution reconstructed. But the monied and propertied sions of homeguards have tried all withing their means to frustrate this.
They buy poor delegates to argue their points of view, they create other documents that rival what the masses have come up and try the best to ensure that the people-driven constitutions fail to get implemented.
Now they have all gathered around Mwai Kibaki to ensure that he clings on to power if it means that is what it will take to prevent a people-elected president does not ascend to presidency and correct the anomaly.
Let it known to the world, they will not succeed. Kenyans fought for freedom, distorted globally that it was done so only by the Kikuyu and Kenya are ready to fight it out right now to free themselves from these sions of homeguards who have plundered our national resources at will.
If Kofi Annan fails to convince Kibaki to step down, break out of civil war will be the best bet for us.
Why don’t we demote English and Afrikaans and start speaking Xhosa or Zulu as a unified language, cause I’m sure it must be quite traumatic for the survivors of Apartheid to hear the dialect of their attackers, who experienced brutal attacks and beatings at the hands of English & Afrikaans speaking whites. What is worse is that they were forced to speak and be educated in languages which were unfamiliar.
Remember, the purpose of colonialism was to make all the countries of the world an English colony and any country which had different laws and customs, were viewed as less equal and was colonized by force, children were killed, woman were raped and fathers slaughtered. WHAT MAKES WHITE TRIBALISM SO GREAT?
What is wrong with tribalism or racial pride? PC liberalism has turned it into a negative thing, and emphasises just the bad aspects when it is used for violence. They want to make us all multicult. A soulless people. With no pride we are nothing.
But history is also full of examples where proud races have lived apart in peace without mixing. Because they remained proud and recognised the other’s right to exist and celebrate his culture. It’s the same reason we each prefer to live amongst our own.
Multicult has not worked anywhere. Where people try force races to mix there is violence (former Yugoslavia, France, the UK, etc).
Martin Luther King used Black Pride to unite his people and preached peace. Practices that promote racial pride may be associated with better cognitive and socioemotional outcomes to the extent that they foster positive self-esteem (Child Development Vol 77).
What is wrong with loving your race or tribe and sticking to your own? It does not have to imply any discrimination or desire to wipe out another; just a desire to live in peace amongst your own. Each has a right to choose to remain among his own.
The reason we have White South Africans, Zulu, Xhosa, English, Russian, Chinese, Indian etc is because we historically each stuck to our own and created our cultures, each of which is unique. To race mix is to destroy all this.
If Whites had race mixed we would have disappeared in SA. Submerged by numbers. We would look like mozambique, white and black gone into a mulatto blend and all these cultures would have disappeared into a polygot culture with no history.
We have low birth rates. If we race mix even less white kids will be born and we will disappear as a white tribe even faster. Already emigration is destroying us.
I want to stick with my own to preserve our culture. My son looks a lot like me and has the blonde hair and green eyes of his paternal grandmother, and like his ancestors. My daughter has light brown hair of others in the family. They have the disciplined and confident character of their culture and warrior ancestors. What is wrong with us maintaining our traits?
I will not have a romantic liason with a non-white. I want my children to marry and reproduce with whites and be proud of their white heritage. They are proud of who they are and grow up confident.
We have 100 000 years of evolution and europeans fought countless invasions to preserve their culture and bring our genes to where we are now. What right do I have to go throw it away now and destroy that unique genetic formula by mixing?
Let the Xhosa or Zulu child also grow up proud of his heritage. If Zuma wants to wear hides and brandish a spear and dance and celebrate his culture, let him. As long as he doesn’t deny me my right to mine, or expect me to fund his. Conflict is not due to tribalism, but one trying to impose his will on another. Like liberals try to impose their will on mine.
We can each celebrate our culture and I acknowledge the right of Zulus and others to celebrate theirs etc.
Even the bible condemns miscegenation, and says to take a wife from amongst your own: do not take a wife from the daughters of the Canaanites.
If we race mix all this history is lost and our race dies out, with the world becoming a blend. Why is this desired? What is wrong with remaining distinct?
Some call SA a rainbow nation. Even in a rainbow the colours dont mix and remain in distinct bands.
I doubt White or Black likes seeing white kids in dread locks, or Black kids trying to be white. It shows a pathetic lack of pride and low self esteem. I doubt Whites or Blacks would like their kids dressed in american gangsta hip-hop fashion, which is a disgusting by-product of multicult. And what is more pathetic than one of those white liberals trying to toyi-toyi?
I would much prefer to relate to a Black man proud of his tribe and people than to a self hating white liberal apologist laden with white guilt.
Let us each be proud of who we are and stop having liberals trying to make us feel guilty about it.
Consulting Engineer on January 23rd, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Bonginkosi, i think the point of the article is that tribalism is alive and well worlwide and that we should recognise this and not try to sweep it under the carpet. People who do not learn from history will continue to repeat the mistakes of history.
In the ANC, leadership goes according to who is most capable. There might have been some distortion to that just prior to Polokwane. If anything Polokwane has proved that in the ANC tribalism has no home.
I do not think we should throw away our traditional clothing for fear of being labeled tribal. I am certain though, Zuma will have no problen in wearing IsiXhosa garbadine when visiting there. I am also certain AmaXhosa would not chase him from imbizo just because he came there with ibheshu. I think we should not over analyze natural phenomenon, nor should we fight for uniformity where diversity is harmless. I think tribalism is when people force other people to be their tribesman against their will. Such I think is not the aim of the movement.
Talking about tribalism will lead us unawares to the snares of tribalism. UmZulu is umZulu and umXhosa umXhosa what is the problem with that?
So the problem is not tribalism. It is looting, plundering, privelige and greed. The only way to safe guard your illegal activities is to surround yourself with loyal henchmen. It could be tribe, family, miltary unit, political views, gang, etc.
The word Tribalism is used against Blacks like Nationalism is used against Whites, somehow implying a racist violent view.
Only by destroying our pride in who we are can the liberal hope to plant his PC garbage in our mind.
Consulting Engineer on January 23rd, 2008 at 2:22 pm
@Bonginkosi
Spoken like a proud Zulu. Well done. And with tact as well.
@aktshabalala
You need not fear being labelled tribal for your dress, anymore than Whites must fear being labelled racist for being proud of our people. It is just a label used to make you feel bad by those who do not agree with your views and want to make us all the same.
But a question, why should Zuma wear Xhosa dress when visiting Xhosas? Why can he not wear his Zulu dress? Certainly you would not expect me to wear Xhosa dress, nor would I. So why would it be expected of a Zulu?
You are correct in what you say about forcing other people to be their tribesman against their will. But then, why does the ANC expect whites to ‘integrate’.? Why cant we remain distinct and live apart, as you allow for Xhosa and Zulu?
Your philosophy of UmZulu is umZulu and umXhosa umXhosa is fine with me, as long as uMlungu remains uMlungu. Just dont raid our cattle ha ha!
Thank you for being an example of why you as a ‘tribalist’ and me as a’white tribalist or racist’ (and so we will be labelled) can show consideration for other ‘tribes’ and it need not lead to violence.
Consulting Engineer on January 23rd, 2008 at 3:12 pm
Mr/Ms Consulting Engineer, you are all for racial purity and all that. Well good luck to you. I say that in the nicest possible way.
I am just unsure somehow whether you understand the meaning of love? Because it sounds to me like you don’t. If you had copulated with a person of colour out of love (heaven forbid), would you love your children any less? Would you see your mother’s eyes in any of them? Would you have taught them anything about values? Would you have taught them about their history, whatever that would be?
You talk about parenting as though the so-called mulattos absolve themselves of this responsibility now that that ‘they don’t belong to any pure race’. You talk about being worried that the White race will be wiped out!!
Go pro-create, my good man/woman. Do your bit for your White race. As you put it, even the Bible supports your arguments.
Have a nice life, Sir/Madam. I hope your children, your spouse and your relatives deserve a person like you.
Consulting engineer,
You really are an engineer; this engineering on my post is quite preposterous and a bit outrageous as well.
No sir, we do not stand fr the same thing. I run away from the thetimes blog have waged fierce battles with conservative people.
I have been somewhat happy with the more enlightened discussions going on here. I need toention though that, I am actually beyond that form of tribalism you talk about.
If you were really to examine the ANC closely you would probably realise, they are for your freedom as well. all they want is for un to be non tribal and even non racial for that matter. so please no more factual engineering
Charlene
Your article has serious racist insuanuations , inferences and sacarsm.Here is why I say that;
You trivialise Zulu traditional dress by refering it to skins et la when you refer to Zuma’s travel to rural KZN.You also allege that The Reed dance or Umhlanga dance has no place in the Zulu culture;that is wrong because The Reed dance is alive today and held by both Zulus and Swatis every year.
You also refer to tribalsm and for a moment I got excited thinking you were going to write sense seeing you are pro segregation and your forefathers promoted tribalism fervantly.Tribalism is what the Polokwane indaba stopped where there was a leader that was Xhosarisig South Africa.
Ndabenhle Mabhena on January 23rd, 2008 at 4:06 pm
@ Ms Smith
I would like you correct you about your reference to the much maligned Nazis and Hitler as ‘tribalists’. The hatred of Jews was not due to their race or religion, or tribe, but due to their behaviour and anti-german actions. I give you some quotes from Hitler from Mein Kampf:
Hitler never hated Jews until he saw their actions:
Not until my fourteenth or fifteenth year did I begin to come across the word ‘Jew,’ with any frequency, partly in connection with political discussions…. For the Jew was still characterized for me by nothing but his religion, and therefore, on grounds of human tolerance, I maintained my rejection of religious attacks in this case as in others. Consequently, the tone, particularly that of the Viennese anti-Semitic press, seemed to me unworthy of the cultural tradition of a great nation
jewish support of liberalism:
When I recognized the Jew as the leader of the Social Democracy, the scales dropped form my eyes. A long soul struggle had reached its conclusion.
Jewish support of vice and porn:
I recognized the Jew as the cold-hearted, shameless and calculating director of this revolting vice traffic in the scum of the big city, a cold shudder ran down my back
Jewish creation and support of marxism and marxist threat to germany:
The Jewish doctrine of Marxism rejects the aristocratic principle of Nature and replaces the eternal privilege of power and strength by the mass of numbers and their dead weight.
Jewish support for immigration:
It was and it is Jews who bring the Negroes into the Rhineland, always with the same secret thought and clear aim of ruining the hated white race by the necessarily resulting bastardization,
Jewish control of international finance and certain key industries:
Jewry must adapt itself to respectable constructive work, as other peoples do, or it will sooner or later succumb to a crisis of unimaginable proportions. If the international finance-Jewry inside and outside Europe should succeed in plunging the nations into a world war yet again, then the outcome will not be the victory of Jewry, but rather the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe
Let us not be fooled by populist propoganda.If we are going to discuss tribalism, let us at least discuss examples where hatred for race or tribe is the cause, and not hatred for a group’s actions.
Consulting Engineer on January 23rd, 2008 at 4:14 pm
@shabalala
The ANC is for our freedom and a non-racial SA? Then please explain these quotes. I can produce many more.
When Mandela dies we will kill you whites like flies” - Mzukizi Gaba (ANC).
The Tshwane metro council will in future refuse to do small business transactions with white businesses. The council’s internal purchase division received this order last week. Kiba Kekana, the council’s municipal manager, last month approved a report determining that no white businesses may in future be considered when the council purchased goods for less than R30 000. The same applied to tenders.
President Thabo Mbeki, speaking at the South African Sports Awards in March 2002, infamously said, “For two to three years let’s not mind losing international competitions because we are bringing our people into these teams.”
The ANC Youth League expresses its deepest disappointment at the selection of South African world cricket squad announced yesterday. During our last meeting with the management of UCB last year, we were presented with a plan of transformation and targets to have not less than seven (7) players of colour during the 2007 world cup….We are not impressed at the lack of commitment to implement that plan as reflected in the representativity of a squad to this years cricket world cup
Seems to me they make everything from sport to business racial.
Consulting Engineer on January 23rd, 2008 at 4:33 pm
Consulting Engineer, I do not say the Nazi’s were tribalists - please read what I wrote: “Tribalism is another form of that old political favourite: divide and rule. The Germans used it to breed hatred against Jews in Nazi Germany, whites used it against blacks in apartheid South Africa, the Tutsis used it against Hutus in Rwanda, and it was used to divided Serb and Croat in Bosnia and Kosovo.”
I talk of it as a divide and rule tactic by those who prefer power over the rights of people.
I’ve just come back from Kenya and the quotes I use from Kenya’s Daily Nation shows how everyone there is bemoaning how tribalism has warped that amazing country. It’s helps if one travels and experiences - knowledge and sensitiviy is always limited if we stay locked in a room behind a keyboard.
What a shame that so many comments on this article are knee jerk racist comments and not thoughtful musings on how politicians manipulate to suit theire own ends. It shows yet again how easy for politicians to manipulate, too few think, too many rely on prejudice to form narrow judgements.
In September 2007 , ANC TODAY has published a disturbing article entitled “A fundamental revolutionary lesson: The enemy maneuvres but it remains the Enemy Part 1″ basically vilifies all whites as the enemy, intent on overthrowing the so-called “national democratic revolution” of the ANC. While thus demonizing all Whites, and inexorably making ‘your skin-color your uniform’…
and then we have MP Chauke leading chants of Kill the Boer, Kill the farmer… and directing hatred at whites…
If this is how the ANC expresses their no-racial feelings for whites, what would they say if they really hated us?
Consulting Engineer on January 23rd, 2008 at 4:51 pm
I agree with Bonginkosi entirely. The columnist posted her article without giving too much thought into it or may be she is down right ignorant and full of contempt for other people’s cultures and languages, especially Africans. I don’t agree with her analysis. She went a step further and insulted the Zulus by calling their traditional attire ’skin’. I just wonder what criteria is used by M&G in reviewing articles before being posted for public digestion. This article is full of contempt and very insensitive.
U need to take a chill pill. he was not Xhosarising SA, he was hanging on to power and he just happened to be Xhosa, so pleeez do not start with the Xhosa stuff( we are trying to stop tribalism and hatred going around), and no need to be bitter about it.
Idi Amin did, Bob next door is doing it- there is Xhosarising about it full stop.
I would not like to respond to many of your questions but rather to a few.What is tribal in saying small orders from white people will not be accepted? Does this not point to the fact that, they the white people cannot compete with small business people any more; which small business people happen to be black.
If you would like to understand Thabo Mbeki,reading dream deferred may help you.
It looks to me you are drawing me further and further from the original argument.
You have already been accused of ethnic cleansing principles.
The author did not mean what you are talking about. If you want to protest against racist methods of the ANC , why do you not give them three years before you do?
They are only in power for 15 yars and even then too many obstacles are put to prevent them from doing it properly.
I have lived and travelled all over the world, at least half the african countries, middle east, south america, and many years in north america. While there I lived and worked amongst the people; not a few days jollie patrollie in a capital city meeting prominents for quick chats or meetings.
So what? How does travel make me more intelligent? Did Einstein, or Steven Hawkins Travel? Did being stuck in a lab make them less clever? How does travel give an opinion more worth?
Regarding racism, if you investigate it, it contains many PhDs etc. There are whole fields of scientific racism, institutional racism, biological racism.. etc. It has a scientific foundation for why it exists. I dont refer to the boep and brandywyn variety. So it can be thoughful as well. In fact the more I read on it the more interesting it becomes. To condemn racial theory out of hand can also be called a knee jerk reaction. Maybe read the writings of Dr David Duke, or Dr Albert Schweitzer before dismissing racial musings as unthoughtful. They just come from a different experience than yours.
Politicians manipulating people for their own owns is nothing new and we all know it. They have been doing it since the pharoahs. I dont see how identifying that is very unique. White, Black and Yellow, that is what politicians do. They tell an audience what they want to here and they work the crowd. Even Mandela had a speech for ANC stalwarts and a more conciliatory one for when the international press was around.
Bush plays the Christian fundementalist one to Americans etc.
PW Botha, one of my favourites, was actually a terrible politician. Her took the wrong tone and was undiplomatic, hence undermined his support.
We all know they do it. If they didnt they wouldn’t be on the podium.
Consulting Engineer on January 23rd, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Something interests me Consulting Engineer. I bet you are one of those white people who complains how lazy black people are and how they waste time at work. But precisely how many hours have you spent today when you should be working penning long comments on this site?
If you look at modern day liberalism: feminism, socialism, protest music, revolution, rebellion against authority, abortion, sexual revolution, homosexuality, drugs as expanding your mind, the end conspriction campaign, the anti-apartheid movement etc., you will find that most of the people who promoted came from one ‘tribal group’ out of all proportion to their numbers. I will let you research that and see if I am correct.
Now why do you think that is? Well tribalism or nationalism would be a threat to this group and they thrive by weakening the social fabric. They can sell us more products etc. By dissolving the ethnic identification and preaching multicult, it deflects attention from the attempt to make global brands.
By diluting and weakening the identity of other people among whom they live,and by promoting tolerance, deviant behaviour becomes acceptable.
By discrediting racial solidarity people become more susceptible to your ideas. They claim to be tribal or racial you must be racist, psychotic, or sick. Without an identity people lose their sense of worth and history.
Someone benefits. Now isnt liberalism and non-racial propoganda just a form of political manipulation?
Consulting Engineer on January 23rd, 2008 at 6:05 pm
The idea of globalism, one world government and the like is very practical - only trouble is a**holes like USA advocate it, understandably making many suspicious of motive.
I tend to agree that tribalism is responsible for very many senseless acts of murder, damage and pillage - destruction. Tribal conflict is like cutting ones nose off to spite ones face - everyone loses.
And tribalism isn’t confined to ethnic tribes - it extends to intellectual tribes, sub-cultural tribes, profession tribes, sports tribes, religion tribes etc.
And the idiotic internecine wars everywhere continue without consideration.
If only more people could try out the simple advice of “do unto others as you would have them do unto you”. But that’s probably asking too much. I don’t know why
I am not sure how my love life is of relevance, but I am more about love and many senses than most do.
Your definition of love is very selfish in that only what you want matters. You do not consider the bigger impacts.
I loved my partner very much, so much so that I will mot easily take another. I would never have dreamed of taking a ‘bush wife’ or a 2nd 3rd or forth wife, and disprespecting her by sharing or even being unfaithful by philandering.
I love my children and they are my life. I teach them their culture, morals, values, history, music etc. Not the modern Madonna etc. Their traditional music.
I love my people or tribe, my nation and my race. I have a duty to the above because of that love. Due to my love of my people no non-white woman can ever be considered as a partner, sexually or maritally, even if personally I was attracted; which I am not.
I love my family and would not upset them or hurt by race-mixing.
I love my tribe of white africans and don’t want it to die out by emigration, race-mixing and lack of procreation. Hence I think whites should stay in SA, marry other whites and raise families.
I love our culure: our food, our music, our way of life.
I love my race and respect the struggles whites around the world went through for 100 000 years. My ancestors struggled to get us here today with white genes through many hardships, wars, invasions and attacks. Now you ask if I would disrespect that effort by race-mixing? I would rather die. That is love for our people.
That is the strength of tribalism. It has existed as long as mankind and kept as strong. Now that we accept liberalism look at all our social ills.
I do not see Blacks, tribalism or racism as the threat. It is liberalism and socialism that threaten us all. Liberalism and its consequent break down of morals has allowed porn, corruption, greed, pormiscuity, etc to spread.
Consulting Engineer on January 23rd, 2008 at 8:02 pm
Modern Cavemen
Isn’t it great that we are sophisticated?
We have paint cans to apply our superstitious graffiti
Instead of having to chisel and hammer on stone walls
Like our primitive ancestors did.
We are so above those savage cave people -
We have guns to pierce our ears instead of using bones -
And we have chemically treated paint
to go on our faces instead of clay and mud.
We’re so advanced, we also have psychologists, psychiatrists
and sociologists to unravel the complex net of advanced problems we have.
Aren’t we lucky?
We have other people butcher our meat for us
To keep us from being so animal-like.
As we shave the hair off of our mammalian bodies,
We prove we are modern.
And when our tribes fight each other we can press buttons
to do it the clean way.
The miracles of science have enabled us to last longer
And live faster. Sometimes, I have a couple of hours a week
To do nothing, but sit and worry about wasted time.
Those backward tribes didn’t accomplish anything,
Just sleeping and hunting and eating .. inside of a natural smile.
They didn’t even have a way to tell time.
I know my children are going to be happier than that.
Consulting Engineer on January 24th, 2008 at 12:09 am
…, what awes me is the lack of perspective about what has been written here. My understanding is that, the article is about tribalism from not one culture, but many and the effects that it can have both negative and positive. And that in order for us to progress as a healthy functioning society, we will have to put aside some of our differences about the way we marry, eat, dress, work, love, and believe.
…, also the fact that we are so stuck up about the how some can enjoy the sun longer while others tend too look like red tomatoes, due to the amount of pigmentation, is in my opinion pathetic -
“Ultimately we are all simple, flawed people — different traditions can be fascinating, but they need to be seen as novel ways of doing things and not mechanisms that separate groups”
…, i would like to recommend some light weekend reading : “Lord of the Flies” and “Animal Farm”
“There is no political solution to our troubled evolution” Sting - Lyrics from “Spirits in the Material World” off the Album “Ghost in the Machine”.
Great article Charlene. Perhaps I’m wrong, but I took you point to be what was expressed in the last two paragraphs, that our categorising of ourselves into groups - irrespective of what the category might be - (gender, race, religion, political ideology and so on) is the underlying problem of so much human conflict and suffering.
As a student of biology, I can only assume that there has been a significant survival advantage to identifying oneself as part of a group in the course of our evolution, as this is an extremely strong characteristic in our species. It’s easy to surmise that a tightly knit groups of humans who were willing to support and fight for each other would have had greater reproductive success (and therefore pass on these characteristics) than another less cohesive band of humans who might abandon their fellows at the first sign of trouble.
Thankfully, one of the other characteristics we seemed to have evolved is our self-awareness/self consciousness. This means we are able to judge and override some of our more base instincts and behaviors and make thought out choices - we have self-control.
This capacity is one of the most astounding features of our appalling/wonderful species, which we all share, is must surely rank right up there with the distinguishing characteristic of what makes us human. How important to our survival and well being is it for us to categorise our selves into tiny, fractured ethnic, religious, sexual or political groups today? Or do we all have a more pressing common purpose?
Wow,to belong to a tribe or not to belong to a tribe,what a question.
Some of my germanic ancestors did not take to well to the teachings of Bonifatius.
In 754 AD he had the audicity to chop their holy
oak down and told them that nothing would happen
to him.So they anxiously waited for their god
donar to punish him.
Nothing happened, so they decided to it themselves
as it appearded for the moment their god had deserted them.
The rest is history,Bonifatius the holy man,murdered at Dokkum in the year 754 AD.
So what has this to do with tribalism,everything and nothing. It goes to illustrate that it is best
not play around with peoples belief systems,not
even with the best intentions.
It is part of our human nature, that birds of a
feather flock together,that is the way we have
evolved and if it aint broken it is best left
alone.
In Genesis 11 we find a bibical perspective and
we read:
‘At first,the people of the whole world had only
one language and used the same words.
As they wandered about in the East,they came to a plain in Babylonia and settled there.
They said to one another”Come on! Let’s make bricks and bake them hard.”
So they had bicks to build with and tar to hold
them together.
They said,”Now let’s build a city with a tower that reaches the sky,so that we can make a name for
ourselves and not be scattered all over the earth.”
The the Lord came down to see the city and the
tower which those men had built, and he said,
” Now then,these are all one people and they speak one language;this is just the beginning of what they are going to do.Soon they will be able to do
anything they want!.
Let us go down and mix up their language so that they dont understand one another.
So the LORD scattered them all over the earth,
and they stopped building the city.
The city was called Babylon,because there the LORD
mixed up the language of all the people and from
there he scattered them all over the world.
Now I am asking myself is the effort all over the
world and also in South Africa not just another
attempt to build our own tower of Babylon and is
the motivation not just the same ” to make a name
for ourselves.”
It does not matter what we accept as the truth
wether our diversity is the result of evolution
or the bibical version.
The fact is that we are a diverse people all over
the world and that it best for any child to
be educated in their home language and in a
stable environment. To grow up in an atmosphere in
which the language,culture, traditions and religion of her parents and ancestors are accepted and not rejected and frowned upon as ‘barbaric, not civilised etc’.
Only this creates a sense of belonging and able them to take mature decisions and not have this
utter nonsense that it is allright for a girl
of 12 to expolre her sexuality and have an abortion!
People who voted for this absurd bit of legislation
should in my biased opion be put in front of a firing squad!! Good heavens the world really has gone mad and if it it acceptable in your culture
and society don’t sell this to me as a progressive
piece of legislation.It stinks!!
It would indeed by a sad and boring world if
we all looked the same,dressed the same,spoke
the same language.
Just imagine if all the birds looked like sparrows,all the fishes like sardines (and I like
sardines)all the predators small and like rats,
give your imagination free reign and complete
the list.
I that were the case I would rather sit on the
moon and eat cheese!
Engineer,
You cannot force yourself to be an African, nobody can force you to be an African. You cannot buy it, you cannot take it by force.
i have never heard of Black Europeans. the concept does not exist. The subject of White Africans is only raised by some people for tribal reasons. Once you are African, your whiteness as a concept falls away.
it seems to me you want to have the best of the two worlds, white and Africa. I may refer to my self as Black or African without contradiction.
When we speak very correctly. there is only one true African just as there is only one true European. But such things are better left untouched as the future generations will determine them.
When I grew up we saw signs written Europeans. Has that group of people suddenly disappeared; no; but we should just leave matters like that undiscussed as we are more likely to quarrel than find one another. your insisting on being a White African, should not be raised as it seems to cloud a lot of things. I accept you as a fellow South African; African is something else.
Excellent. This attempt to make one people, non-racial etc is as doomed as Babel. No matter what liberals say, we are NOT the same. That is the biggest liberal lie of all. Listening to liberals has only brought us child abortion and sex, porn, increasing divorce, and a host of other social ills. Since the 1960s they have been busy eroding society and norms developed over 100s of years.
The child abortion thing, it is only a symptom of the immorality promoted by liberalism. They preach tolerance so we would tolerate them.
Brother, will you pass the cheese if i join you on the moon? I will bring the wine and bread.
Consulting Engineer on January 24th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
@ Mr Shabalala
I am aware I cannot be African. The ANC government never ceases to remind me that I am white and not welcome. Statements, like if I dont like the crime I can leave, Kill the Boer Kill the farmer, We will Kill all you whites like flies, your skin colour is your uniform, in meetings I get told why are there so many white faces here etc. Coming from the mouth of Senior ANC officials, this reminds me that I am not welcome.
Their BEE also reminds me of where I cannot go, just like the old Pass Laws. I cannot go into a tender office. No whites are allowed to tender. If I want to tender I must have a Black Baas as a ‘dompas’. Then I must just be quiet and do the work.
If I were applying for a job I would be told ‘Sorry we can’t employ Whites due to quotas’. My son will be told no matter what your grades are you can’t get into university since you are white and there are quotas.
Nothing I do will allow me or my people to have equal rights. So my ‘whiteness as a concept’ will never fall away. Nor do I want it to. I am proud of it. Whether I believe in this tribal grouping or not, it impacts on us.
Yet if you are Zulu, Xhosa, Tswana etc. such a tribal grouping doesnt carry the same stigma as White.
You are are HDI or PDI. How long will that carry on? I am a CDI, Currently Disadvantaged Individual. Will my son be able to claim HDI status since he has been discriminated against since his birth in the new SA? He never had the privilege of Apartheid.
I am glad you accept me as a fellow South African; just like I accept you as one. Only this government does not see me as an equal South African. Except you are a Xhosa? South African and I am a White one. You ask I give up my ‘whiteness as a concept’. I do not ask that you give up your ‘Xhosaness’.
I have nothing against you. I just don’t think this government is doing a good job, as evident by the collapse around us. I don’t even mind another Black one. I just ask that the corrupt, incompetent and criminal in this one be shown the door.
Consulting Engineer on January 24th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
Engineer,
I hate to hear you lament like this;but listen; it is only 15 years what about 300.
I am with you in some of the complaints; but ou did a lot of disservice to your course by clinging on this purist theory. suffering knows no bounds. But to tell the truth , you are still by far better off.
There are Black people by far worse off.
The lion of the middle lands Harry Gwala once reminded Prince Mangosuthu tat people do not eat Zuluness. so my encouragement to you; people do not eat xhosa or Zuluness; we are the peoples of Africa and our problems are intertwined. the sooner we drop the race card the sooner we will get whre we re going. By the way my son is looking for a white girl friend ; can we talk?
I could not but be moved by your humbleness. not all is lost. we shall together work very hard towards a united democratic south africa. we need not mention race tribe or ethnicity. our problems know no race. we shall all die one day and wher we go , no race exists. we should not look at our problems with a jaundiced race eye. there is a very strong pressure towards that though. you should take courage from people like joe slovo and many white compatriots, who long ago realized that racism is of no use.
africans by nature are really not conscious of this race thing. we see human beings not whites. it is the reactionary forces which have driven us to even know there is something like racism.
I don’t have 300 years. My children’s future is now and in Africa. They are born in the new SA and have been discriminated against by this government since birth. If yours are under 15 they never had Apartheid, so why are they given advantage now?
I am not interested in the vagaries of Africa Time, or excuses from the ANC about why our nation is failing. It is simply due to bad policies, incompetence and mismanagement. I expect progress, not decay and collapse.
In any civilised nation governments are elected for 4-5 years, and if they don’t make a positive difference, are chucked out by thinking people. They are not given 300 years. Its time for a change after 15 years of growing corruption and poor management. As we say, ‘S**t or get of the pot’.
Nations like Haiti, Liberia and Ethiopia have had 200 years and have achieved nothing. I won’t even mention the colonial ones to avoid that debate.
Like the Titanic, the new SA was heralded as an innovation and unsinkable. But the Titanic at least went down with the lights on. Zimbabwe was also heralded as the shining light of Black liberation. Look at the result. I cannot eat promises. Bob should have been removed long ago. But in Africa it is often ‘One man, one vote, one time.’. Once in, a party is difficult to remove.
This concept of President for Life and 300 years of rule for entrenched parties in Africa always leads to disaster. Kaunda, Nyerere, Mobutu, Moi, Mugabe, Bokassa etc.
Will africans also drop the race card? Would they vote for a party made up of largely whites if those whites better managed the country for both Blacks and Whites? Of course not. People vote by race. Politicians know that. In africa they even vote for parties to their own detriment.
Regarding your son, ha ha! I see you have a sense of humour! Very good. But, Over my dead body. The liberation movements tried that, but failed, except to leave several holes in my body. Unlike our friend Bonginkosi I take no offence at having been a warrior.
I will work with Blacks and co-operate with them to make SA a better place for all, but mixing our genes? Never. I love my culture to much and want to perserve it. My ancestors would be horrified.
I suggest your son saves up his Lobola for a decent Xhosa girl and try and fix the social ills in your culture, like I teach mine to fix the ills in ours: Disrespect for elders, lack of discipline, divorce, self centredness, no sense of duty, no honour, drugs, infidelity etc. Liberalism has damaged both our groups in different ways. Let us each clean up our own house rather. Then we can meet across a table to co-operate on fixing the damage the thugs and corrupt criminals that have hijacked SA are doing, rather than to discuss weddings.
As a Christian, we need to be humble. The Bible instructs us to be humble and live at peace with the neighbouring tribes, but to band for war to protect your people when necessary. It also tells us to remain distinct and to take a wife from amongst our own.
Piet Retief tried to negotiate and live at peace with Zulu neighbours. The attempt was made. When your neighbours are bent on your anhiliation it is not possible.
Interesting you mention Joe Slovo. He is not White. He is a Jew. And a communist. he is not one of us. Its not about skin colour, its about culture, or tribes if you wish.
You say africans by nature are not conscious of race. Then why is it wherever I go in africa children yell Umlungu, Mzungu etc? We are all race and tribe conscious. Even Afrikaans and English. Lets not pretend we are all the same and rather focus on how to live at peace but distinct. The Springboks and the Buffalos do not graze together, nor do they attack one another. But we are both threatened by the Lion in power that wants to devour us to feed his fat belly. This Lion doesnt care about either of us. Only lining his belly.
Consulting Engineer on January 25th, 2008 at 12:36 pm
Engineer,
By 300 years, I mean, just give us 300 yars to learn how to govern as you people had 300 year to experiment.
If you reject the Jewish people, you are then more sinful than anybody else. Are these not the people God chose to save human kind. How can you worship the father and reject his son. Was Jesus Christ not a Jew. No problem, I will have them. You know Jews are so advanced they have African Jews as well.
South Africa is not Black Africa as people say. We will never go that way. We will ever have a President for more than 10 years. This is just what we have proved to you.
I was in a meeting one day. An Eskom official was say “We will not build new power stations fueled by coal. We are now going nuclear” I would like to know ; was it Thabo Mbeki who was saying those words.
We call you Mlungu, but when we deal with you ; naturally we are oblivious to your skin until you begin to show your true self.
You taught us democracy and according to it people must vote. What is wrong in voting for the DA 10 times? What is wrong in voting ANC until Jesus Christ comes back?
We are only 15 years in power; and to tell the truth our harshness is nothing compared to your 300 years.
Apartheid invoked racial friction and even racial hatred which has in no means abated to this very day, and the bitter irony is that the Boerevolk, who had not been in power since 1902 and who also suffered severely under apartheid in the sense that apartheid robbed them of their land and their work-ethics, are being blamed for apartheid today.
Lets face facts.
When the whites came they had gun powder, brick houses, sanatation, ships, agriculture, law and order.
The blacks had
bows and arrows, field huts, toilets where , well lets just say where need arouse, to this day they struggle to swim, group justice.
You where given power because you said you were ready, you have had 300 years to learn, are you saying that thats to short a time for you?
Why do you need 300 more.
Many whites say blacks cannot govern, I differ, look at Botswana. 20 years ago their currency was trading at nothing, today their currency is stronger than ours. The world calls SA Africa economic leader, the facts say rubbish, why else is their currency stronger than ours.
The problem in SA today is due to the facty that the ANC would rather modle itself on Zimbabwe that Botswana, due to the fact that our leaders and robert have a long history (R. Mugabe paid for Tabo education) and they have no connections with Botswana. We all need to remeber that this country does not belong to any of us. SA belongs to the Strand looper and the Khio, Whitres , Blacks and all the others are all immagrants to this country, the whites from Europe, the Indians from India and the Blacks from Central Africa.
Its a pity so many blacks haver forgatten their roots and believe they come from here, for if you forget your roots you forget your pride.
It is only the Jews themselves that proclaim themselves the Chosen People. What is more racist than that? It is only in the first 5 book of the Bible. After that they are condemned. Jesus himself spoke against the Pharisees and Jews. It was also the Jews who condemned Jesus, choosing rather to spare the worst criminal Barrabas. But we should not discuss religion here. Faith is divisive and cannot be changed.
Regarding your willingness to embrace this tribe, Friedman in another thread claims that the ESKOM fiasco is the fault of whites since the ANC followed white economic policy. The ANC follows socialism. Social is not a white policy; it is a Jewish one.
Karl Marx (born Levi) and another Jew, Friedreich Engels, issued “The Communist Manifesto” in 1848 in London. Marx was descended from a long line of famous Rabbis who were so-called “Talmudic scholars.” This is the source from which his communist philosophy springs.
Vladimir Lenin was of Jewish Ancestry as were approximately 95% of the Communists in both the Bolshevik and Menshevik Parties.
LENIN said (From an article in Northern Pravda, October-December 1913) about the communist party, ” the percentage of Jews in democratic and proletarian movements is everywhere higher than the percentage of Jews in the general population.)…Those Jewish Marxists who join up in the international Marxist organizations with the Russian, Lithuanian, Ukrainian and other workers, adding their might (both in Russian and in Jewish) to the creation of an international culture of the working class movement, are continuing the best traditions of Jewry.”
In the first government of Communist Russia there were only 13 ethnic Russian Commissars and more than 300 Jewish Commissars out of a total of 384 Commissars. The billionaire New York Jew Jacob Schiff was the revolution’s chief financier. Jews were 1.7% of the population of Russia. Of the 6 members of Lenin’s first Politburo, three were Jews, Trotsky, Kamenev and Zinoviev”
The Jewish Telegraph Agency of May 14, 1997, said the Jews “…played key roles in ushering Communist rule into Hungary. In fact, during the brutal oppression of the early 1950s, the regime’s top 5 leaders were Jews.
The Kibbutz communes in Israel shows the only people in the world which have voluntarily adopted communal living and are run by marxists. They operate many farms and factories. It is of interest that they are always millions in debt and must be bailed out constantly with U.S. Foreign Aid money.
The ANC in South Africa was guided by two Communist Jews, Albie Sachs, “one of its foremost intellectuals”( London Sunday Times, Aug. 29, 1993) and Yossel Mashel Slovo (Joe Slovo). It is members of this self serving tribe that guided the ANC on the disastrous economic path of socialism.
Here is Meneer Kasrils, another Jew, with Meneer Mandela speaking to reporters after singing kill the Whites, kill all of them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKiePbTcAfY
Be careful who you embrace Mr Shabalala. If you get into bed with the wrong partner you may find yourself without the blanket, or worse, kicked out the other side. Be careful what you read in the main stream media. After all, 96% of the international media is owned by six Jewish companies. http://www.mediachannel.org/ownership/chart.shtml
Check what is in Guy Berger’s column.
I need not tell you more. It is well documented in many places: www.jewwatch.com
Consulting Engineer on January 26th, 2008 at 10:43 am
@ Mr Shabalala
Your refer to ‘our’ 300 years in power. Who is us?
Boers have not been in power in SA since 1902. Even then it was only a short period. Before the short lived Boer republics it was British Colonialism. After the Boer War the British ruled again. In 1948 the Afrikaners took power, who are not the same as the Boers. Afrikaners ruled 45 years only, but look at the infrastructure they built up.
The word Apartheid invokes racial hatred directed at Boers and the bitter irony is that the Boerevolk, who had not been in power since 1902. They also suffered severely under apartheid in the sense that apartheid robbed them of their land and their work-ethics, are being blamed for apartheid today.
The land of the Boers was taken by a joint British and Jewish cabal who wanted the gold and diamonds. The Boers were put in concentration camps to die. This was never done to Blacks. So whose rule was harsh?
Or are you saying all whites are the same? Then I guess all Blacks are also the same?
Consulting Engineer on January 26th, 2008 at 11:34 am
@ Mr Shabalala
Here are some thoughts to ponder. I hope you spread them to your ANC friends so maybe they consider the choices they make in policy. If you you are blind, then consider the motives of those that you ask to guide you:
Some call it Marxism — I call it Judaism.” (The American Bulletin, Rabbi S. Wise, May 5, 1935).
It is legitimate to adopt a critical attitude toward the relatively large number of Jews who particularly in the first decade after the Bolshevik revolution collaborated with the Soviet Government in the persecution of other peoples.”
Statement of researcher Michael Mills, an official of the government of Australia at Canberra. (Source: Forward, March 10, 2000)
“The Jews welcome this revolution in the Christian world, and the Jews should show an example. It is not an accident that Judaism gave birth to Marxism, and it is not an accident that the Jews readily took up Marxism: all this was in perfect accord with the progress of Judaism and the Jews.” (A Program for the Jews and Humanity, by Rabbi Harry Waton, p. 148).
“We have exterminated the property owners in Russia. We are going to do the same thing in Europe and America.” (The Jew, December 1925, Zinobit
“The world revolution which we will experience will be exclusively our affair and will rest in our hands. This revolution will tighten the Jewish domination over all other people.” - Le Peuple Juif, February 8, 1919. “The governments of the peoples included in this world republic, with the aid of the victorious proletariat, all will fall without difficulty into Jewish hands. Private property will then be strangled by the Jewish directors, who will administer the state patrimony everywhere. Thus the promise of the Talmud will be fulfilled, that is, the promise that the Jews, at the arrival of the Messiah, will possess the key to the wealth of all the peoples of the earth.” - Baruch Levy, in a letter to Karl Marx, published in the Rothschild controlled La Revue de Paris, June 1, 1928.
Trotsky, a jew, said of Russia: “- We should turn Her (Russia) into a desert populated with white Nigers. We will impose upon them such a tyranny that was never dreamt by the most hideous despots of the East. The peculiar trait of that tyranny is that it will be enacted from the left. Rather than the right and it will be red rather than white in color. Its color will be red literally because we would spill such torrents of blood that will pale all human losses of the capitalist wars and make (the survivors) shudder. The largest overseas banks will cooperate with us most closely. If we win the Revolution and squash Russia, on the funeral pyres of its remains we will strengthen the power of Zionism and become a power the whole world would drop in the face of on its knees. We will show (to the world) what the real power means. By way of terror and blood baths we will bring Russian intelligencia into the state of total stupor, to idiocy, to the animal state of being…And so far our young men dressed in leather - the sons of watch repair men from Odessa and Orsha, Gomel and Vinnitza - oh, how beautifully, how brilliantly do they master hatred of everything Russian! With what a great delight do they physically destroy Russian intelligencia - officers, engineers, teachers, priests, generals, agronomists, academicians, writers!” (Secrete Forces in History of Russia. U.K. Begunov 1995, p 148.
Engineer,
Thank you for that good research you have provided.
I am sorry though to have fallen into a trap, which has allowed you to bing out you feelings about the Jewish community. sir , I would like to withdraw myself from that argument..
I have been arguing with somebody in thetimes; I ended up doing the same.
Your feelings are too deep they will not be solved until Jesus comes back.
I just cannot see how we can build the future together. Enjoy the day sir.
You are so stuck in your prejudice I cannot help you.
Given what has happened in SA since 1994 it seems that required reading amongst many of the ANC was the communist propogandist Ilya Ehrenberg, a lithuanian of the same tribe as Slovo: ‘Ehrenburg’s incendiary writings were, in fact, a prime motivating factor in the orgy of murder and rape against the civilian population that took place ‘
‘In the German race there is nothing but evil; not one among the living, not one among the yet unborn but is evil! Follow the precepts of Comrade Stalin. Stamp out the fascist beast once and for all in its lair! Use force and break the racial pride of these German women. Take them as your lawful booty. Kill!’
Certainly the Book of John would be prohibited reading to someone whith his views: John 8:41-44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Consulting Engineer on January 29th, 2008 at 10:38 am
@ Cool down
There is plenty more in the Book of John where Jesus is talking to the Jews. There is much more our friend should read than genetics, although that is an interesting topic. It seems his reading has been restricted to PC teaching.
The beginning of wisdom is to think for yourself and not blindly accept what is put forward to you and ‘accepted’. To examine facts and data and draw conclusions and subject thoughts to falsification.
These days SA school texts state that the definition of racism is the feeling of superiority of Europeans over africans and asians’. PC indoctrination. I guess only whites can be racist. One can only wonder at the motives of people that wrote such text books.
Consulting Engineer on January 29th, 2008 at 10:51 am
enginner,
You sort of socked us into inaction. i am sure ifyou write a bit further,we may get some thoughts to respond to you. We have just wondered amongst ourselves if in this day and age , there are people who can think so systemically wrongly.
That is actualy the reason we ran quiet. how can such a great brain , get it so wrong!
You mean how after all this indoctrination, PC spin, and even outright threats againsts those that don’t agree, can any one still resist and not have the same view.
The PC view point is best summed up by rulings like Judge Ulrich Meinerzhagen in the trial of someone questioning the public version of the Holocaust “It is irrelevant whether the Holocaust occurred or not. Denying it is a punishable offense.”
The facts, truth or evidence is irrelevant. To even question the PC version is a punishable offence. Democracy and free speech is great isn’t it? If you would only forget facts and just agree.
Consulting Engineer on February 1st, 2008 at 9:06 am
I am utterly confused about the torrent of comment that has arisen about tribalism. Charlene started off by discussing the situation in Kenya. Consulting Engineeer is sometimes right, and sometimes horribly wrong. His anti-semitism and racism are worrying. I can see he has a lot of anger and I sympathise with him, being a half-Afrikaner myself.
However, there is one thing all of you have in common. Your ability to express yourselves and talk freely about what is happening in Africa today, and how you would want it to happen (or not happen)in South Africa. And that is truly amazing.
Please read an English (UK) newspaper. There isn’t a decent honest response to anything. The English are so demoralized and de-tribalised and multi-culturalised and dumbed down,that they are absolutely unable to respond to anything.
The UK is of course, a totally de-tribalised and multicultural country. It is a civil offence to discuss or promote tribalism, especially if one is an original Briton. Nothing, but nothing is PC.
There is a culture of teenage crime and fatal attacks in north-London, Nottingham, Manchester, other cities. Kids are knifed to death. One never hears the word Black. Yet these are black kids in a big mess. Black kids who are yet again not able to achieve even in a country where schooling and child support are a given. Britain is unable to solve the problem of kids who are not in their normal environments, but in essentially, inner-city environments where they cannot, possibly, be mobile in the normal sense of the word.
One is not permitted to discuss the problem as being a black kid problem.
This of course, does not solve our apprehensions about tribalism and how we react to it in Africa, and how we would all prefer our country to be governed, but at least, at least, we are all able to shout about it.
Our apprehension about tribalism is quite relevant. Afterall, we have lived under the Dutch, the British, the Boer and now the Xhosa. And we have a lot of comparisons to make.
That is the crucial thing, we must keep on shouting about the lack of good governance, and the need for it, and the dominance of one tribe over another, if such a thing should arise.
And yes, there has been sufficient time to learn about running a country well. Why hasn’t the ANC learned the lesson? Are they deaf, dumb and blind to boot? They act like kids with no money in a toyshop, smash and grab.
Even those ignorant Boers learned very quickly to run the country efficiently and to build a strong infra-structure. Australia until very recently, could not possibly compare with the infra-structure created by the so-called Boere.
Yes, they indulged in nepotism, but not to the extent that the country suffered, and jobs were given to people who were totally unable to perform them. Viz. Eskom.
In other words, the Boere learned about accountability. Even now, they are accountable for their actions during the Apartheid era.
Will the ANC accept accountability for any of their inabilities? Like Mbeki defending Selebi? And the previous minister of Health?
South Africa is a fantastic country with enormous potential. Pity it has to go down, like Kenya and the others.
I personally don’t think tribalism has much to do with it. I think greed and inefficiency, and cunning, has contributed to the slaughter and anarchy in these places.
So, what are we going to do about it? How are we going to stop South Africa descending into the same abyss?
Jenny/Spain
It is interesting to note the relevance of this article and the strong responses it drew. The article was published on January 22 - its relevance has been strongly underwritten in the South Africa of April 2008.
Hello everyone!
I am a white women from Europe, and I am married with a black man from US; what I read on this site, all this comments….it is obviuos that you are intelligent people, but for one second think about this: we are all equal, regardless the color of your skin….if your skin is darker is because you have more pigment-melanin…this is the only difference;
Mr. engineer, please don’t raise your children to hate the other, they are the only one who will suffer from this!
My kids will be mixed, does that means that they can not play with your kids?
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Charlene Smith is a multi-award-winning journalist, author and media consultant. Her latest book is "Committed to Me." She writes for newspapers and magazines in South Africa and internationally and has had 13 books published, one of which was shortlisted for an Alan Paton award.
Television documentaries for which she has worked have also won major international awards.
She has worked as a broadcast journalist and radio-station manager. Smith's areas of expertise are politics, economics, violence, women's and children's issues and HIV and Aids. She is frequently invited to address conferences around the world. www.charlenesmith.net
Yest (Saturday) my purse was stolen @ Rome Termini shortly before I boarded a train for Salerno, Italy. I have no money + 5 biscuits until my Masterca...
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Ms Smith, I fail to understand the purpose of this article. You are giving us a history lesson about things that happened in Rwanda and Kenya etc. but somehow I fail to understand what relevance they have for us living in South Africa. You level a few accusations against Zulus that leave me in no doubt that you actually have little knowledge of the dynamics of the politics of that area called KwaZulu Natal. You speak of Jacob Zuma ‘wearing skins’ and doing ‘tribal dances.’ Mr Zuma was not wearing skins and doing tribal dances. He was getting married. That is what people do in KZN when they are getting married. I have been to countless of these. I have never heard anybody making a tribal declaration before they do this.
And then you make other statements about Zulus being thought of as warriors. What is the point of this exactly? Have you ever heard the self-same Zulus suppressing other stories of heroism about other tribes in South Africa?
Ms Smith, I dare say, you did not think through your article. It is pointless and an insult to thinking South Africans. I truly do not believe you were in the moment when you were writing this. Come now, say something intelligent.
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