In a world buckling under economic recession, in a country of violence and crime and poverty, how can anyone find the time to care about the treatment of animals? The simple answer is: we have no choice. The very fabric of our humanity is being torn apart by the brutality and horrors being perpetrated, and no-one, I believe, wants that on their conscience.
If you are reading this and don’t know what I mean by “the treatment of animals” then feel ashamed. In the internet age, no-one can be excused their ignorance.
If you have some inkling of my meaning, and you still eat meat or use pharmaceutical products tested on animals, then take this moment to be filled with the horror of what you are condoning, of who your money is enriching.
I am no tie-dyed hippie. I tend to side with Cartman on that subject — hippies, new-agers, reiki masters, some of the biggest idiots the scarce oxygen supply on this earth is being wasted on. And it’s sad that the animal rights movement has been tainted as having anything to do with hippies and smoking dope. Like many other compassionate causes, it has been painted as anti-capitalist, bleeding heart naivete. Which is unfair and — if one were the cynical sort — appears to be a deliberate tactic on the part of those with the most to lose to discredit it.
Be under no illusion: the vast majority of meat you are eating, be it beef, veal, chicken or fish is produced in conditions that are so horrific they are hidden from the public. Organically fed doesn’t mean “treated well” either, so don’t try that line. And don’t also the try that line that chickens are stupid or fish don’t feel pain. In both cases there is clear evidence to the contrary. Human babies are pretty stupid too, but no-one is burning their fingernails off to stop them scratching each other.
Animal testing continues. The beauty products industry has done all the other animal testers a huge favour by turning the lack of animal testing into a marketing gimmick. Right now, in laboratories around the world, there are animals being electrocuted, burned, cut up and tortured in order to test household products and drugs. You might argue that if this leads to the development of a new cancer treatment it’s a necessary sacrifice. Even this is nonsense on further investigation (would you take a drug because it worked on a rat?) but leaving that aside, how about a new toothpaste? Would you knowingly allow a puppy to be confined to a tiny cage for months on end to develop a new way to clean your teeth?
It’s easy to argue that humans are omnivores and eating meat is natural. But what does “natural” mean? When was the last time you enjoyed the warm, tasty contents of a freshly slaughtered sheep ripped apart with your bare teeth? The reality is we don’t eat any “natural” meat products. We cook them, we spice them, we put them on bread and in pies. There is nothing “natural” about how we consume meat.
Neither is there anything natural about the drugs injected into animals to grow them larger, to make them produce eggs and milk more often, to make them reproduce. We are as far from the mythical hunter on the plains of Africa with his spear tracking an impala as we could possibly be. So far, in fact, that most people would shudder to see even that supposedly natural human event taking place. It’s brutal enough to watch a lion killing and eating a buck, so much so that many people flinch at the sight. Do you feel hungry when you see the blood and entrails strewn across the Bushveld?
We have evolved away from creatures that live in this way. We rely not on our muscles and teeth for food, but on our technology. We eat impala in fine restaurants, accompanied by fancy sounding French sauces. The argument for what is “natural” has long ceased to be meaningful.
There is no health benefit to eating meat: quite the contrary in fact. You can get proteins from grains and vegetables. Hindus have lived for thousands of years on a vegetarian diet just fine. And if you’re worried about taste, when was the last bland Indian meal you ate? Many of the ingredients that give your favourite meat or fish dishes their wonderful taste are plants anyway.
Even if you want to hold to the idea that eating meat is a fundamental human privilege, how can you accept the cruelty that goes into getting it to your table? The “Farmer Brown” ads we saw as kids misrepresent chicken farming in the way German paintings of Hitler misrepresented the death camps. All these pictures of smiling cows and happy pigs have infiltrated the media to the point that we cannot conceive of the truth. Children’s books still have quaint farmyards circa 1750 where the farmer wakes up at dawn to milk his beloved cows.
The meat companies and the testing laboratories go to insane lengths to ensure the true images don’t get out. The film Earthlings has done much to get the truth out there, but people shy away. Once these images are in your mind, it’s hard to get them out. So best to keep feasting on the meat and not think to hard about it.
Tolstoy said “as long as there are slaughterhouses, there will remain battlefields”. Violence toward fellow humans is horrible enough, but violence against creatures who cannot defend themselves and cannot have done us any wrong is not only cruelty, it’s evil.
Becoming a vegetarian is not simply a health choice, and it’s not a diet for hippies. It’s a way to keep your humanity, our humanity, in tact.
DISCLOSURE: I am personally involved in the Naked Yoga project, and in campaigning for animal rights.
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It’s amazing how everytime Obama or someone is asked about the meat industry in America they go to huge lengths to evade answering the question. Such is the power of the meat industry lobby.
A good book to read on this is Animal Liberation by the Australian philosopher Peter Singer.
I fear you words will be lost on the reactionary masses who will attack you personally for taking a moral stance. They will call you all sorts of nasty things, but I’m sure you have heard it all at dinner parties already–those events where people take offence to your choice not to eat meat. Their only real defence in the end, “I eat meat because I like the taste”…well you know what, so do I. But there is more at stake than what tastes good.
Ghandi once said that to see the quality of the country, see how they treat their animals. (A bad mis-quote but you get my meaning). Although i eat meat i do agree with your comments; except that i also think you are a little over the top. I have a friend who is a beef farmer and he loves his cattle and they DO roam free. Eventually they move to near the slaughter house but their lives are just like one would imagine. they are cared for and have more than ample space in the KZN midlands. Unfortunately, you do come across as a bit of a raving hippie which can lead people to discount your article when it does have some very valid points.
“If anyone wants to save the planet, all they have to do is just stop eating meat. Thats the single most important thing you can do” Sir Paul McCartney.
Mr Veggie Burger on October 13th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
This piece beautifully sums up many of the lifestyle changes I have recently embraced. I would also suggest the film Kymatica for further information on mankind losing touch with its humanity.
Cheryl, with all due respect, please re-read the article and then read what you have written and then re-read the article and then read what you have written? Hopefully at some point during that process you will realise what I am trying to point out to you.
To shoot a wild animal that has grazed or browsed for two years in a game farm with no predators,that falls to the ground dead before it even knows it has been shot is so much more preferable to an industrialized farm raised animal.However the taste of home fattenned pork raised on kitchen scraps and odd veggies,cooked by my missus until the crackling has that odd combination of crispness and melt in the mouth ecstacy,now there is something that a vegetarian can never beat.
The only problem I have with your article is your (seeming)criticism of those that use drugs tested on animals. I am a vegetarian, i have many vegan friends, many of them deeply involved in animal rights, and they use medicines when they have to.
All drugs have to be tested on animals by law, and until that outdated ruling changes, people have no choice. I mean, they can choose NOT to take medicine, but no one I know, even the most fanatical abolitionist, would ever condone someone harming their health (or that of their children) when there is no alternative.
The emphasis should be on getting the FDA and others to change their standards and embrace cruelty free (and far more advanced) methods in testing the safety of medicines.
Jeez, to think the future of the whole planet depends on stop eating meat. It is amazing to think climate change can be blamed on meat-eaters! So simple! Whow, cool dude, keep smoking that spiff, it will take more than that. it starts by removing all domestic animals, sheep, cattle, goats, chickens by painless injection. Then by re-education the senseless masses that meat is bad and beans are good, and in true vegan fashion, if you don’t agree we will not shave and wash for a month. Keep on dreaming babe, I’ll eat meat and love it.
I think that the most convincing argument for vegetarianism (and even veganism) is the impact on the environment. It is difficult to persuade someone using subjective emotion and moral standards, but it is impossible to deny the negative impact that factory farming has on the local and broader environment.
Excessive meat eating increases starvation. This year alone, twenty million people worldwide will die as a result of malnutrition. One hundred million people could be adequately fed using the land freed if Americans in the US reduced their intake of meat by a mere 10%. Extrapolate that to other big meat eating societies, how many people will you feed?
If you want the starving people of this planet to have a more nutritious diet cut out/down on meat and I’ll allow you to enjoy a chocklate.
Jarred - your article brought tears to my eyes. I am a young professional and because I am an animal rights activist as well, often get ignored because the public thinks ARA’s are influenced by fairies and the moon. THANK YOU for finally giving us credit. Compassion is a HUMAN trait, regardless of class, religion, race, nationality, etc.
Think of this: Fresh pan fried sole with lemon butter and black pepper, followed by a juicy medium rare beef fillet, garnished with a red wine source and a crisp Greek salad. Jarred, this cuisine may not feature on your new age religious menu, but for the vast number of us, we believe and accept that this food forms part of a balanced diet. For many of us, this forms part of our own customs and belief system and as such, you have as much right to attack our customs as you you do to attack gay or tribal customs and norms. None! So, by all means - hug a tree, smell a rose and suck a turnip - but don’t pass judgement on the rest of us unless it is open season on ALL culture and belief systems. Do you really want that?
I have hope that we will be able to stop cruelty against animals. I have less hope that we can stop cruelty against one another. It’s time for more meaningful conversations. We need to redefine humanity instead of being reactionary; the search for the blueprint of the Human Soul is on.
[…] Thought Leader » Jarred Cinman » The evil of meat www.thoughtleader.co.za/burningpaper/2009/10/12/the-evil-of-meat – view page – cached In a world buckling under economic recession, in a country of violence and crime and poverty, how can anyone find the time to care about the treatment of animals? The simple answer is: we have no… (Read more)In a world buckling under economic recession, in a country of violence and crime and poverty, how can anyone find the time to care about the treatment of animals? The simple answer is: we have no choice. The very fabric of our humanity is being torn apart by the brutality and horrors being perpetrated, and no-one, I believe, wants that on their conscience. (Read less) — From the page […]
Mr Veggie Burger: why should America plant crops to feed the rest of the world? Why don’t “the rest of the world” do it themselves? America is not the nanny of the world, however much you seem to want it to be, neither is there anything wrong with having more of something than someone else.
While I do not condone ill-treatment of animals, I see nothing wrong with using an animal for the very purposes it was created/has evolved. It would be cruel not to, in my humble opinion.
Jarred, your piece is well written and convincing; my only objection is that you focus only on meat, whereas those who still consume other animal products like eggs and milk (regardless of their origin) are also complicit in unnecessary cruelty to non-human animals.
I’m always fascinated by how strongly people react to anything even vaguely proscriptive, like the suggestion that abstaining from animal products is healthier, more ethical and more environmentally friendly. In earlier times, these people would probably have labelled us ‘pinko commie bastards’ or something similar
Ironically, these same people are probably the first to invoke proscriptive law (as if law was some divine, immutable thing predating humankind) as an argument against the actions of direct action environmentalist groups like Sea Shepherd.
And, hypocritically, they’re also for the most part the same people who acknowledge the need for a basic set of commonly-held (and hopefully evolving) moral values as the basis for any cohesive, enduring social grouping (you can’t get very far as a group if you all disagree on the age of consent, for example.)
PS: I’m also amused by how naive the meat-heads’ arguments are and how poorly they spell. The positive correlation between vegetarianism/veganism and IQ doesn’t surprise me!
urm, quite, probably not so lekker for the animals involved. but for the self righteous veggie folks - pls don’t forget that the products you are eating contribute to environmental damage…hop off that horse..
Vegetarianism is a perfectly acceptable dietary choice, as long as the individual realises that they must compensate for the lack of protein and iron and other minerals by eating large quantities of certain plants, or processed supplements. If you do not come from a culture that eats this way, this may prove difficult. My godmother is Australian, and became a vegetarian at the age of about 14. She recently nearly died as a result of various complications resulting from her diet. Fortunately she now eats meat again and is as strong as an ox, and enjoying her new vitality immensely.
My biggest concern is children. It is EXTREMELY dangerous to impose vegetarianism on children, particularly babies. If you must do it, get informed and keep a very close eye on your baby’s weight - see a doctor immediately if complications develop. Veganism is particularly bad, as vegans do not allow any animal protein in their diets and therefore cannot feed babies milk, including human breast milk. This can be fatal for the child and can lead to imprisonment for the parents, eg http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18574603/.
As for the ethics of the matter, I am with the Michael Pollan / Barbara Kingsolver school of thought on this, which I won’t bother to try and precis here - anyone truly interested will know what I mean or look it up!
Well said. Naturally the knee jerk reactions (i have already read some) will be to discredit you (us. It’s sad that we can be so unbelievably selfish and willing to be so ignorant. It is a fact that a plant based diet will result in enough food for everyone on the planet, cleaner air and earth and more water. And less violence toward other humans in general, due to a life based on non violence. Thanks for a great article! Looking forward to more -
I am also amused by the reaction you get from most people as soon as you point out an ethical blind spot. Guilty conscious? I suppose people don’t want to know, because they can never NOT know after that, and they might have to make some decisions and actually do some mental processing. Seems a pretty safe/cowardly way to live.
No one said America must feed the world, Mr Veggie Burger clearly said exrapolate the US example to other big meat eating societies.
Its very hard to feed oneself in a globalised world of ‘free trade’ when US farmers push small scale farmers in Africa off the land by dumping their subsidised agricultural produce.
If there were no agricultural subsidies in the US their agricultural system would collapse, hardly something to be proud of.
Where did you get the idea that vegans won’t breastfeed? Vegans are against the exploitation of animals. Maybe the woman in this story was unable to breastfeed, or refused for some other reason, but to say “vegans don’t breastfeed” is just wrong.
@ian: You should check your facts. Vegans have, according to research by prominent organisations like the FAO, around 1/10th or less the environmental impact meat-eaters do In fact, the livestock industry is the single biggest cause of anthropogenic climate change (don’t just take my word for it, ask the UN - they reached the same conclusion in a 2006 report).
Oh, and vegans don’t ride horses
@Eat em and Smile: the World Health Organisation and American Dietetic Association, as well as countless other prominent institutions, have all concluded that a vegan diet is perfectly healthy at all ages of life; research by these and other organisations, as well as prominent studies like The Cornell China Study, indicates that it’s often even healthier.
It’s certainly also easy and cheap, even here in SA.
I don’t know where you get the harebrained notion that vegans don’t breastfeed their babies - I’ll be sure to mention this on our website though, where I’m sure it’ll garner a few laughs from all the vegan mums.
If you’re interested in ethics, by the way, perhaps you should rely on the thinking of actual ethical philosophers (like Peter Singer) instead of journalists and lay-writers. Exercising some prolepsis, I advise you to read more carefully on the marginal impact reduction of animal-inclusive locavorism before believing the erroneous conclusions people like Kingsolver draw.
@Shamus. I am not an idiot and do get your point. i don’t need to read the article 3 times to get it!! In fact, i agree with you on just about everything you said. i do eat meat but very little and no seafood at all (even though i used to enjoy it). i try to avoid animal tested products where possible. all i’m saying is don’t make everything meat completely evil. People stop listening when they think you sound like a crazy hippie. like when kids are told how evil drugs are, nobody tells them they make you feel good. these are important facts not to leave out. all i’m saying is don’t be hysterical coz people stop listening - just look at the comments and my point is made!!
I’ve learnt so much! Cruelty to animals, not ok; cruelty to women vegans who cannot take tablets to shrink their swollen maternal mammaries: ok.
Do we pass if we only eat meat once a week? Would group flatulence (from a diet of beans) give off less C02 than all those animals happily grazing in the veld? If we don’t use make-up are we persona partly grata?
mmm since we can’t really relate to plants in terms of how they react to stimulation (we feel pain, they have chemical signals), we can’t really justify eating plant foods either from an ethical standpoint. The only solution is to become a fruitarian and eat only the fruits, seeds and nuts that plants have made specifically for animals to eat for seed dispersal and fertilization. Sorry to burst your bubble guys.
This is a complicated issue, but be aware that it is impossible to live a lifestyle that is completely animal impact free. Everyone draws a line somewhere:
Do you include fish as animals, plankton, do you include insects, do you include bacteria, viruses? Do you mind annoying them, forcing them to live in separate areas from where they want to, put them on leashes? Do you feed them only the healthiest of food, whenever they happen to be hungry no matter the cost?
That healthy, cruelty-free fruit you’re eating was probably pollinated by a bee disturbed and traumatised by a bee keeper’s smoke. That house you’re living in caused the death of numerous insects and small animals during its manufacture.
If you accept that nobody is COMPLETELY cruelty free you have to accept that everyone sets their own practical and moral limit somewhere and that nobody can claim to have the absolute moral high ground.
Funny how the mere mention of vegetarianism draws the ill-informed nutters out. DJ, for instance, with his creative description of sole and his reference to new age religion. The writer of this column quite plainly rejects new age stuff: “hippies, new-agers, reiki masters, some of the biggest idiots the scarce oxygen supply on this earth is being wasted on” - but it’s so diffie to reject the animal suffering/enviro damage argument that this kind of idiocy will be raised no matter what a writer says.
BTW, DJ, my husband says that my vegetarian meals are so good I should start a restaurant. I take care over my vegetarianism, so we get every nutrient we need. Our meals are also so healthy, thanks to the legumes and nuts and low fat and loads of veggies, that every year, this one-time steak-lover (he’ll still eat one occasionally) gets a surprised thumbs-up from his cardio specialist, who cannot credit how low his cholesterol is - it’s below the target, and can’t be accounted for by meds alone, says the doc.
Finally, did you know that your delicious sole is bottom-trawled, causing environmental damage and a huge by-catch of things like over-exploited silver kob?
Animal husbandry and settled farming have been the cornerstones for human civilization. If vegans and vegetarians want to moralize their socially-acceptable eating disorders by claiming to “save” the animals (and now, suddenly, the planet) then be my guest. Just leave the rest of us out of your guilt trips…
The production of meat is worse for the planet in terms of water use, carbon emission as well using most of our food supplies to feed cows and produce meet for a lucky few.
Just ask Al Gore why, in An Inconvenient Truth, he didn’t mention the damage the meat industry does to the environment.
It’s because - as he points out in the personal segment of the film - his family are cattle farmers.
This sentence quoted from the author’s article says:” would you take a drug because it worked on a rat?” This polemic nonsense betrays a woeful ignorance about drug design and testing. I challenge the author if he has hypertension which would cause serious damage to his acrdiovascular system: would he quit taking his lifesaving medication because its development was first tested on a rat? Rats are genetically fairly close to humans, and this is why the are being used for drug testing. But perhaps the author will offer one of his family members as test subjects to save the rats being used? Vegetarians also need lifesaving drugs.Perhaps someday biochemistry and medicine will arrive at other ways of drug testing but in the meantime I will use drugs developed on rats, whether the author likes it or not. I will also keep using rats in physiology practicals to educate my students (rats are not sacrificed in such cases).
I started reading this post with a slight sense of excitement - not because I agree with your viewpoint on meat per se (I don’t), but because in the first few paragraphs you actually led me to believe that you are going to present a coherent argument.
In the end, this was just another piece of pathos. I’m not even sure you’ve got your facts straight. I would appreciate it if you could clarify, for example, the following:
You wrote: “And don’t also try that line that chickens are stupid or fish don’t feel pain. In both cases there is clear evidence to the contrary.” (And then you start ranting about babies.)
No one is disputing that animals feel pain. Can you, however, provide actual evidence that chickens or fish aren’t stupid? I’d very much like to see the data for that. How about a Turing test?
Also, I kind of started laughing when I read this interjection:
“(would you take a drug because it worked on a rat?)”
There’s a reason animal testing is being carried out - its called evolution. Animal testing works because there’s genetic similarities between us and them. Go Google it.
Then, of course, there’s your paradoxical statement that “We rely not on our muscles and teeth for food, but on our technology”. Technology and modernism is the very raison d’etre for slaughterhouses.
You didn’t really put a lot of thought into this, did you?
As you propose that eating meat is immoral, when, in your opinion did humanity adopt this moral code and, by extension, were early homo sapiens immoral for hunting animals for food? You argue that we have evolved away from the way we prepare our meat, but does that make the act of eating meat immoral?
Jarred:
Your tone in this article is offputting, even if what you have to say is right. (However, your rightness or wrongness is not the focus of this critique.) Thus, you end merely preaching to the converted and making all the rest question the soundness of your judgement, even though that is not what you intended. It is not just WHAT you say, but HOW you say it (tone and style) - food for thought next time you write.
Jarred — excellent article and long overdue. In a country that has shed the shackles of apartheid, made rights for women and children a priority, it’s utterly SHAMEFUL that animal rights are ignored in South Africa. The arrogant ignorance of people like DJ continues to amaze - although not amuse - me. The fact that he thinks that killing and eating anhimals is on a par with liking or not liking coffee is testament to people’s stupidity and selfishness (which usually go together). I’ll be that DJ would cease to be a relativist if someone, stealing his property, said “You might not think stealing is proper, but don’t tell me not to steal - after all, stealing forms part of *my* culture.” Since when does “culture” or habit defend injustice or moral wrong? DJ - go back to the Dark Ages. OF COURSE Jarred should pass judgement - the mistreatment of animals is morally wrong - allowing your palate to dictate your conscience really is quite despicable. Meat eaters are like greedy children, who think the world revolves around them and their wants and desires. GROW UP.
This tie-dyed old hippie has shared your sentiments for decades, and is a devoted admirer of Peter Singer. Why are you so intemperate about a few lentil-eating new-agers? Because they are an almost invisible non-bloc of opinion, and are used as convenient objects of derision by people who would never, for example, specifically castigate the Zulu community for its carnivorous tendencies? Chill, Dude. Save your ire for things that really matter. As you did in your otherwise trenchant article. Gotta go and suck up more of that oxygen I really shouldn’t be allowed.
Moderation in all things.
There are cruelty and human health issues to consider.
Perhaps it is possible to eat meat from humanely raised and humanely slaughtered animals,and certainly in much smaller quantities.
Wild antelope culled humanely are in my opinion a much safer source of meat than animals confined and given drugs to put on weight and antibiotics to prevent disease in crowded conditions.
Eggs from battery hens smell and taste terrible. The lives of these hens is past horrific. These concentration/torture camps for hens can be seen as you travel along national roads, their neat exteriors belying the suffering within. We can eat eggs from reasonably free range chickens at little extra cost, and eggs are not a large part of the budget of the poor, many of whom eat eggs from hens scratching around in the dust around their homes and living on scraps - a wonderful life compared to that of the poor battery hen. I suspect their eggs are also healthier for the consumer, not being laced with antibiotics.
Vegans and vegetarians I salute you as long as you consider the health of your children - I think it is difficult to raise a healthy child without meat or at least eggs and milk.
WHAT!!! Where is the race element in this piece? This is South Africa!
Hooray, at last something normal and interesting on Thought Leader, and so we are spared the usual loony prattle by the rabble. Something we can get our teeth into …. like a lekker skaap tjoppie
I read the article with growing annoyance as it seems to be a piece of snuck narcissm. “Look at me. I think meat is evil”. But that is ok. You can say that. To try and justify it is also ok but the justification demonstrates the immaturity usually associated with this kind of narcissm. Immaturity spawns from a lack of knowledge which you clearly demonstrate.
I agree with you on the modern treatment of animals. It is atrocious. But that does not make meat evil. It makes man evil.
The meat most people eat today are from animals that through a process called “husbandry” been bred by man to suit his needs. Archaeologists and Sociologists are unanimous that husbandry was a vast step forward for primitive man to populate the earth. Firstly, it put them in a position to travel with food in stead of being bogged down in one particular place. Secondly, it also provided a regular source of food in contrast to the non meat products that are seasonal. What we know as sheep and cattle and chickens today never existed in its current form. It was bread by man form ancient sources such as mountain goats, water buffalo and partridges. Resultantly these exploits of nature made man more populous than any other of the larger mammals on earth. So to make the point clear - your particular DNA might no have survived if it was not for this process.
Great article! Some people *meat eaters I’m talking to you!* are so ignorant. They’ll claw at any old reason to justify their treatment of sentient beings. Yes … I judge them. vegans are smarter. Simple.
Secondly archaeologists have not found any evidence that fire came before homo sapiens. In fact the contrary. Fire pre exists homo sapiens. So the image you conjured of man eating a raw sheep is just factually incorrect – on two accounts then. Sheep also does not predate fire. Man exploited nature since the beginning. This includes the testing of drugs on animals. Over 30 000 years this is just an additional step in that exploitation process. I must say when my child lies in intensive care with a snake bite I would prefer the administration of anti venom medication rather then a brew of some wholesome herbs.
So to further enlighten you – the vegetables and fruit you are eating today went trough the same process of husbandry. None of the vegetables and fruit you found today was around when homo sapiens arrived on earth. It was bred by man in the same way they bred animals. Today that process is taken a step further by genetic alteration. Do not think the pineapple you see today is the same pineapple that existed thousands of years ago. It’s the same comparison as the mountain goat and sheep. Further more besides the amounts of natural land and forests that are destroyed to plant all these fruits and vegetables also destroyed millions of organisms feeding of this.
The majority of plants we eat today are genetically modified and the term “organic” also does not mean its not. This modification also contributed hugely to increased harvest which in turn allowed homo sapiens to grow to billions of creatures in the same way meat did. And who says plants do not feel pain. Why does a certain acacia tree exert poison when a giraffe starts to eat its leaves? Is human pain is you criteria your on the wrong side of the fight.
The point I am making is that man is a parasite to the earth. It exploits it ruthlessly. At some stage the earth will shed the parasite as it shed other forms of life previously. To claim that you are a better parasite then the other parasites around you is a pathetic attempt to sooth your misplaced guilty conscious.
Most food crops, fruits, vegetables and plants have not been genetically modified (or genetically engineered), they are NOT GMOs, genetically modified organisms.
Go into the department of agricultures web site, South Africa only grows GM maize (60%), GM cotton (95%) and GM soy (80%). South Africa also imports GM canola oil but grows only non-GM canola.
There are experimental GM potatoes and several other crops but they are not on our supermarket shelves.
Even long life tomatoes on our shelves are not GM, they have probably used natural selective breeding or hybridysation to achieve those longer shelf life qualities.
The more consumers find out about GM food the more they reject them.
Humans are omniverous creatures that evolved from the woodlands. We are cannot digest cellulose, otherwise the ceacum and appendix would be fully formed stomachs instead of useless appendages.
Yes, there is a benefit to eating fruit and veggies, they contain valuable vitmains and minerals we can’t get from meat.
But, we cannot get the full spectrum of amino acids and lipids from plants alone. We need to eat a certain amount meat to survive.
Anything in extremes is bad. Veganism is unhealthy because it is over the top and compromises the immune system terribly; but a red-meat rich diet is also going to end your life permaturely from heart disease.
Ethical treatment of animals is awesome and must be pursued; and that includes ethical hunting (I said ethical not canned!). Thanks to hunting many species have been brought back from extinction (like the black wildebeest) because they have commercial value. Otherwise they would have been shot out to make room for wheat fields.
You can’t have it both ways and measuring impact in terms of carbon is too one-sided. So what, cows have gas. So have millions of other species over time. Arguing over cow gas is arguing over the right of animals to exist and flourish if conditions favour them.
And if you can’t handle watching a lion kill an impala, grow up! That’s what the REAL world of nature is all about.
It demands blood be shed for others to survive. Its life…
@Andreas: Veganism is simply a commitment to live a life which is as cruelty-free as reasonably possible. Most vegans recognise that there is no absolute moral high ground, not even for ascetic Jains who sweep the ground before walking and wear masks so as not to breathe in tiny flying insects.
However, there is a stark difference between the indirect, unavoidable suffering contingent upon your mere existence (like the bug you squashed when you drove to work this morning) and the suffering you cause by consciously electing to consume meat, eggs and dairy. Thus to propose that veganism is some sort of absolutist fundamentalism is simply a clever way to assert some sort of dubious postmodern moral equivalence in order to assuages your sense of complicity.
Once more: veganism is simply a commitment, based on the recognition of the capacity of other beings to suffer, as well as the recognition that they exhibit preferences, to live as cruelty-free a life as possible. Makes good, logical sense, don’t you think?
@MLH: To each her/his own is a great maxim; make sure you extend this to all beings that are subjects of a life though
@F M: Most vegans are ’sentientists’; that means they use the criterion of sentience (something modern science *KNOWS* plants do not exhibit as it relies on a central nervous system) to evaluate the ethics of their actions relative to other life.
Even if plant life was equally worthy of ethical consideration though, we would still eat plants in order to spare as many of them as possible.
Hard Rain: Fallacious argument. Slavery was also a cornerstone of human civilization (from the pyramids to the Industrial Age, right through to most of the world’s chocolate, we owe lots to slaves!)
@Syd: Morals evolve.
@Johan Swarts: Read Dr Ray & Jean Greek’s ‘Specious Science’ or one of Dr Vernon Coleman’s many books if you’re interested in a sound critique of the epistemological assumptions of animal model research.
@Mike: Playing the man is a sure way to ignore what is being said.
@Willem: DNA blah, husbandry blah, organic vs. GM, misleadingly vivid analogy of man as parasite….Your post is simply one enormous argument from precedent that describes our current situation as if mere description could replace ethical considerations. Yes, things kind of suck…So let’s do our best with the givens you so clearly underscore
R Mayer: “I think it is difficult to raise a healthy child without meat or at least eggs and milk.”
This isn’t true — see the latest report by the dietic associatoin of America. Vegan diets are appropriate and healty for ALL ages. Meat, on the other hand, is the cause of many diseases, from cancer to heart problems.
Willem - your arguments are illogical. You write:
“Immaturity spawns from a lack of knowledge which you clearly demonstrate.” This is ad hominem nonsense. On the contrary, it is meat eaters like yourself who demonstrate narcissism, thinking that the animals of thsi world are fodder for your palate. If that ain’t narcissistic, what is?
Your claims that “Archaeologists and Sociologists are unanimous that husbandry was a vast step
forward for primitive man to populate the earth” are utterly irrelevant, even if true. Warfare and rape probably contributed to the population spread across the world - hardly justifies the practises. Do not confuse what *causes* something with what *justifies* it. It’s this kind of confused and irrational thinking that clouds the issue - amazing how one’s personal desires can hide the truth of one’s actions from oneself.
Meat eating is totally unjustified and immoral, even if some of our ancestors did eat meat.
Now as a fairly liberal vegetarian who enjoys a slice of bread and the occasional roll, I really have to point out that most, if not all of food intake is of vegitarian origin ……
Like I mean to say, seeing that as most of my cows and sheep and pigs eat vegetable matter, what they do in effect is convert the vegetable matter for me - so in effect what I am really eating is converted vegetable matter.
I agree with the sentiments that we MUST treat our fellow creatures better, but I disagree with your statement that a vegetarian diet is the healthy way to go. I have become fat and a non-insulin dependant diabetic eating a vegetarian diet. Now I have to eat meat/fish/chicken/eggs to help control bloodsugar levels - because a vegetarian diet simply cannot do it. (And I don’t even like the taste of meat / eggs etc.). The human digestive system is clearly closer to that of a carnivore than to that of a herbivore, and the human body cannot remain healthy in the long term on a vegetarian diet. I try to do my bit for the animals by only eating free range eggs and meat - at least the conditions the animals live in before they are slaughtered are somewhat better.
Stopping to eat meat isn’t the best thing you can do for the environment. The atmosphere can handle the cow farts. What the creatures of the earth can’t handle is the millions of hectares of forest / prime grassland that are being converted to soya bean plantations to ensure that vegetarians don’t get protein deficiency. Think of all the species of plants, fungi, insects, rodents, birds, reptiles, frogs etc. that goes extinct because their habitat is being destroyed to plant monocultures of soya beans. Cows grazing in the field do not destroy habitats, and do not drive species to extinctions, to the same extent as plant-based agriculture.
Good article. Thank you.
I am a meat eater. I believe meat (in moderation) is good and appropriate food for humans, contrary to the vegan point of view. However, I am deeply troubled by the way in which animals are raised and killed. I hope that soon there will be a movement which can offer humanely produced meat and related products to the public. I’m sure vegans see this as impossible but I don’t think it is. Look how organic farming has grown recently in response to public demand.
However, the environmental impact of meat is a bigger problem, in my opinion. “Your heart, your planet” outlines the environmental costs of meat and they are huge. For this reason alone I would encourage everyone to reduce their meat intake.
I think the argument linking the harming of animals to violence to other humans is valid too. In our very violent society we should not discount this logic.
Instead of hurling insults at each other, let’s keep up the conversation, share our knowledge and work together towards a more humane society.
Oh Willem! What a great laugh you gave me! Do you eat lots of fish? You must, to have such a huge brain!
1. If you’re going to accuse Jarred of a lack of knowledge, darling, better mae sure you have some yourself. Mountain goats, water buffalo and partridges? The ancestor of the cow is the aurochs (Bos primigenius); the ancestor of the chicken is almost certainly the Red Junglefowl; the ancestor of the domestic sheep is the wild mouflon; you come closest with the mountain goat - the wild goat probably was domesticated into today’s goat. Of course, we do use water buffalo and partridges, but the buffs have only been domesticated for about 6000 years, and I don’t think we ever domesticated partridges at all, except in the form of David Cassidy.
2. Since sheep and goats were next in line after dogs, and appear to have been domesticated at a very similar time to (indeed, a little after)plants, I don’t think that ancient humans took ‘em with ‘em while filling the earth, as a kind of convenience food.
3. Willem, babe, of course fire predates humans, it predates every living thing!
4. The anti-venom is a bad choice - milked and brought straight from the snake to you. Pick another drug.
5. Monsanto will love you, but you’re dead wrong. We still don’t eat mostly GM foods. And GM notoriously hasn’t yet led to bigger harvests.
Still, a great laugh!
@Zoo Keeper: Veganism is unhealthy? Vegans don’t get a complete essential amino acid profile? Egads man, do some research next time! http://www.pubmed.org is only a click away you know. Just go there and type in vegan and you’ll be surprised at just how healthy a balanced plant-based diet is
Then again, if you’d bothered to do some reading before spouting your nonsense you’d have noted that the official position of the World Health Organisation - those crazy scientists - is that a vegan diet is perfectly healthy at all stages of life for all people. But heck, what do they know, they’re just relying on stuff like peer reviewed papers and reams of data analysis by the world’s leading nutritional researchers….
By the way, cellulose is just one component of vegetables - just because broccoli has cellulose in doesn’t mean we don’t derive nutritional benefit from it, nor does it imply that just because *some* herbivores can digest cellulose and we can’t, we shouldn’t be eating a plant based diet. In fact, we’re better suited for it. Here are some good pieces on the biological herbivorism of homo sapiens sapiens:
@jay: I think your thinking is challenged enough already
@Yolande: Over 95% of soy is grown either to feed livestock or as a buffer in non-vegan products, so it’s *you*, as a meat-eater, who are complicit in most of the deforestation in the Amazon.
Refer to the 2006 UN Report ‘Livestock’s Long Shadow’ (Google it) if you want to understand why a plant-based diet is the most environmentally friendly one.
This is a great article, yet I think that you shouldn’t end with just carnivorous? How about all animal products including but not limited to the seats in your car?
I find some the comments perculiar, since people are saying you will be persecuted for your choice not to eat meat… maybe its the fact that you indict all the meat eaters = because of their choice too.
Please also consider us humans. Are you wearing a platinum, gold, diamond, silver ring; the actual question is whether you know where it was mined and whether any limbs/lives were lost?
Have you considered oil? Bush and his administration might have an answer for you.
Your PC/Laptop is also emitting some radiation, plus the car and electricity you consume are the cause of majority of CO2 affecting the ozone layer.
I think that we all adult enough to make our decisions. Stop making yourself feel good, its our design.
I love meat, yes I slaughter a cow or sheep every once in a while and yes I cook it(with fire). I’m not that primitive. Let us see you having your tea without boiling water!
When last did you walk barefeet to another City? say atleast 300km instead of using you car or any form of transport.
Get real and state a reasonable arguement. Otherwise you will attract this kind of nonsense arguements from me.
@Janine: if you are deeply troubled by the way animals are raised an killed then how the heck can you still eat them? Imagine if I was ‘deeply troubled’ by child abuse yet continued to watch child porn, wouldn’t that be insane?
As for humanely produced meat … that makes no sense! Humane…slaughter - do you see the contradiction???? It’s like kind murder or loving rape.
But, too many surgeons have complained to me about operating on vegans though. Seems your immune systems are not up to scratch as far as those guys were concerned.
Also, as far as I’ve seen children of vegan parents are on average smaller and less active than their counterparts. Of course there is no science in that statement, just personal observation. Are there any successful bodybuilders who follow a strict vegan diet (no supplements) - genuine question?
I believe we need animal protein, whether it comes from cows or insects. We need fish oils to feed our nervous systems.
Once humans managed to capture and raise their own meat, and divesify away from eating grasses to fruit, we have become taller, faster, stronger and brighter. We’re still not as big as we used to be before we discovered wheat etc… Makes you think.
We need a mixture which is why I don’t believe either end of the spectrum holds the right answer.
This is a brilliant article written by you and thank god someone is standing up for the animals of our world. i am an animal rights activist and i am so proud of what you have written. the blatant truth. well done. We need more and more of this every day. When i go to bed at night i am happy to know that no animal or human was harmed in order for me to live, how many people can say that?
zoo keeper, there are plenty of vegan bodybuilders and athletes out there - and as vegans they would be disinclined to take supplements. Just a short list:
* Jennifer Argenti, Surfer
* Rob Bell, Inline Skater
* Brendan Brazier, Pro Triathlete
* Molly Cameron, Cyclist
* Katie Coryell, Pro Surfer
* Robert Cheeke, Bodybuilder
* Wendy Gabbe, Basketballer & Duathlete
* Catherine Johnson, Elite Cyclist
* Scott Jurek, Ultramarathoner
* Tonya Kay, Dancer
* Schulyer Love, Boxer
* Adam Myerson, Cyclist
* Kelly Lynn Nauyokas, Fitness Professional
* Erica O’Connor, Inline Skater
* Brent Poulsen, Triathlete
* Jason Sager, Mountain Biker
* Duncan Seko, Runner and Cyclist
* James Southwood, Martial Artist
* Tim VanOrden, Mountain Runner
* Christine Vardaros, Cyclist
* Maria Vlasak, Elite Duathlete
* Kenneth Williams, Bodybuilder
Martina Navratilova and Carl Lewis are among the previous generation…
vegan children are just as active, (most kids these days tend to be sedentary anyway) and bigger is not necessarily better. Fish oils are exchanged for certain seed oils. And what on earth would a surgeons complaint be?
YOLANDE change your medical practitioner if they said you ‘have’ to eat meat! And FYI our sytem is designed for herbivore living!
There is sooo much to eat out there that doesnt involve torture & killing. Eat what doesnt run away from you. Simple. What we Meateaters (I was) love re the taste of meat do not understand, is that we ALL have adaptable taste buds..Only humans have this for obvious reasons..Stop eating meat and whatever you end up eating instead, will soon taste just as wonderfil. Try it, it only takes about a week. Soon the taste & smell of burning flesh will disgust you too….and stop using the term; “Behaving like animals”…its not animals that behave like that, its us. Inform yourselfs, there is no excuse anymore to say; ‘I did not know.’
@Mothokoa: I’ve considered all those things actually, yes. I try to live with minimal impact on the lives of those around me and on the natural environment I form part of. Diet is the boldest and most effective statement any of us can make in this regard, in my honest opinion, and for me veganism exemplifies how I choose to relate to the world.
@Zoo Keeper: It doesn’t matter what you believe, or how often and in how many ways you reiterate it, modern science just isn’t on your side when you claim that veganism is unhealthy. I urge you to read up on the matter instead of relying on anecdote and personal observation (remember the old saying: ‘common sense is what tells us the earth is flat.’)
Speaking of simple common sense though, if we need animal proteins and fish oils then what explains the longevity of members of rural Chinese (often nominally vegan), Tibetan Buddhist (usually lacto-vegetarian / vegan) and Hindu Indian populations?
Speaking of immune systems, studies indicate that meat-eaters are, on average, 3x more nutritionally deficient than vegans and less prone to various dread illnesses…which is probably why veganism is positively correlated with a lifespan.
The list of Oympic Games winning athletes who are vegan/vegie is a very, very long one.- Its interesting that in nature the meateaters out there all eat vegetarians. And why is it that all meateaters when drinking water in the wild, lapp the water from the source with their tongues and herbivores all suck water…like we do….Inform yourselfs, our dental and intestinal configaration is absolutly more suited to not eating meat…This has been proven long ago…Aragorn will tell you where to look….
Splendid stuff yet you didnt read the entire statement the Zoo Keeper see “no supplement”. Since you cant prove there were no supplements, dont engage.
How many seeds would I need to consume in order to match fish oils?
@Heidi
I bet that there are not items that have been shipped, mined for you… Otherwise keep believing your “truth”.
@toni
Our system was not designed for herbivore living- if so why did the first specie consume majority meat? The doctor was giving advise based on the fact that the amount of protein required by our bodies is easily acquired from meat!
Have the animal activists stopped consuming all forms of medication that were tested on animals before or is it a case of the end justifies the means now? I think its selective activism. when your child needs medical attention; do you advise the doctors that they should not use any form of medication that was previously tested on animals in cages?
Please be nice to the animals and stop eating their food.
Jackyl,
hehe, I was expecting that! You’re right, of course. I am in a dilemma over this. The thing is, I don’t believe it is ethically wrong to eat meat - except from an environmental point of view. I DO think it’s unethical to allow them to suffer miserable lives and frightening deaths.
My logic suggests the best thing would be to home raise my livestock and ensure they have lovely, happy lives and that their end is swift and “humane” Yes, it is possible. As a loving animal owner I’ve (or rather my vet has) had to put down a number of dogs and horses in my time when they could no longer live comfortable lives and they died humanely. My only problem with that is I’d become emotionally attached to them and I’d just end up with a petting zoo!
I guess the vegetarian (NEVER VEGAN!) in me is screaming to come out. Who knows? In any case, I think you vegetarians are definitely on the right track. The aggression you express is an indication of your passion for your belief and I salute you.
I’ve read this now for the last two days resisting the urge to reply. But here’s my 2 cents at the end of the discussion: Every argument has two sides, each side can claim common sense and emotional issues to support their point of view.
There is nothing wrong with a Vegan lifestyle. There is nothing wrong with a carnivorous lifestyle. There is a lot wrong in forcing whatever choice you make onto the other, there is a lot wrong in judging and ridiculing the other because of their choice.
Fundamentalism in any guise is just plain wrong (if not abjectly unhelpful to the cause, which is why carnivores are seen as boorish and vegans as nutcases), and both sides litter their arguments with straw men, false dichotomies, slippery slopes and all kinds of fallacies. “Reductio ad Hitlerum” anyone?
I am a meat-eater: The best I can do is to make sure I get my meat as cruelty-free as possible, and that I look after MY life the best way for ME. I won’t impose my values on anyone, and I won’t allow anyone to impose their values on me. Inform – yes, impose, no. You live your life, I live mine. And we take responsibility for those lives – at least, we should.
Aragrorn:, I admire you for the courage of your convictions, and I even agree with your sentiment. But I also agree with what guys like Willem said. I can see both sides.
There are millions of Bhuddists and Hindu’s around the world that have lived very long healthy lives either as vegans or vegetarians, and without suppliments, for many generations spanning thousands of years, and Africans traditionally ate very little meat until they adopted the western diet.
Moong (mung) beans and basmati rice eaten together as ‘dhal and rice’, very tasty I might add, gives you the 23 amino acids you need.
A piece of steak gives you 13 amino acids.
I prefer having healthy moong dhal and rice with grilled mediteranian veggies for maincourse and nuts, cream and honey for pudding than steak, egg and chips.
The steak cannot give the full spectrum of amino acids and is pumped full of anti-biotics, artificial growth hormones and all sorts of other things the animals own body produces out of fear it expeiences in the abatour as it watches, waits, hears and smells its mates being slaughtered.
@Jannine
Thanks, I am passionate about this and I definitely think there’s a vegetarian in you somewhere :)If an animal is sick, injured or unable to live comfortably I agree that it’s probably more humane to end their suffering swiftly. However that justification simply can’t be used to explain slaughtering animals for food - they don’t need to die, and certainly don’t want to die! So why should they, ‘humanely’ or otherwise. Is it really okay to treat sentient creatures like that?
@Gerry
You say you won’t impose your values on anyone, and you won’t allow anyone to impose their values on you - but in this instance, where abuse and suffering is occuring on such a mass scale, how can we be expected to keep quiet? You wouldn’t keep quiet about woman abuse would you? I hope not. If I was kicking kids in the head and someone tole me to stop because it was evil, would you defend my choice by saying that I’m simply ‘living my life’?
@Clean Air
Um, there’s no difference between eating meat or drinking dairy when it comes to the suffering of animals. Cutting out meat but drinking milk won’t help - where do you think all the veal calves go?
@Gerry: You seem to be suffering from Moderate Extremism, whereby you have to be seen to accept both sides of every debate as if this is somehow automatically, by virtue of its association with temperance, the superior position.
Using the analogy of slavery, however, we can clearly see that in many cases, a certain position is undoubtedly the superior one (ethically or otherwise) - abolitionists held the clear moral highground in the case of slavery and it is likely that vegans hold some kind of moral highground (although yes, like all you meat-eaters I also abhor the idea of a moral highground) in the case of our treatment of non-human animals.
As for fundamentalism - would you have called the abolitionists fundamentalists? They were pretty absolute in their call for an end to all slavery - they certainly didn’t rally for better treatment of slaves!
Saying ‘I eat meat and I see nothing wrong with it’ is not a constructive statement as it offers nothing in the way of furthering the discussion; perhaps if you can explain *why* you see nothing wrong with it (perhaps preempting the common reasons why vegans *do* see something wrong with it) we can move on
Finally, you can’t just bandy about a list of logical fallacies to defend your case - you have to explain how they apply to your opponent. In this case, I’m reasonably sure they don’t
Isn’t it great that we minimise the impact these creatures have on the ozone layer by eating them?
hahahaha
@Gerry
Thank you. This is the kind of attitude we should all adopt. I think sharing information is great. These ideas are being imposed and that makes me really “excited”.
We have all these radical groups imposing all these great ideas that they have to curb global warming and animal rights yet I dont know if there is a group that is saying “Lets stop eating fresh veggies cause they are still alive”. at this rate we are going to end up eating nuts only cause that is the only food group that can be eaten long after they harvest. Unless there is a group somewhere awaiting an opportunity to strike.
To all out there, I am a vegan and a proud activist against animal rights but I think we are imposing ideas and not informing. As soon as I read this article I felt uneasy about the reaction it would get. It’s too contentious. e.g.The heading - just scroll up.
Jarred - be a tad bit diplomatic with your comments and you will hit a nerve somewhere. Rome was not built in a day.
We already feel persecuted by preachers.
Educate; dont judge - We will read with an open mind. i.e. open to ideas.
Sentient: Lifeform with the capability to feel sensation, such as pain; thus most beings are sentients; Conscious or aware; Experiencing sensation or feeling.
I agree with Gerry. Ridiculing and fighting against the alternative viewpoint achieves nothing. No-one I know has ever changed a viewpoint dut to coersion.
I am reminded of the old tale of the sun and the wind. For any who haven’t heard it:
The sun and the wind were arguing about who was the strongest. The wind challenged the sun, pointing to a man walking along in his favourite jacket. “I will get the jacket off him far quicker than you can, Sun.”
So the wind blew and blew viciously, but all the time the man just wrapped his jacket more tightly around him. In the end the wind wearied of this and looked to the sun.
The sun moved forward and shone warmly and gently upon the man, and in due course he removed his jacket, content and happy.
I don’t believe we will easily achieve a world totally free from killing of animals.
However, if we stopped (reduced) eating meat, we would stop the massive chicken, pork and beef factory farms that put more greenhouse gases into the atmoshere than all the cars, trucks and tractors on the roads.
We would also stop the massive deforestation by converting forests to cropland to produce grain to produce meat. Meat eating is an extremely ecologically destructive and wasteful habit compared to vegetarian diets.
My conscience can live with orgnically produced milk, cheese, yoghurt, cream, buttermilk etc. Yes those animals will eventually get slaughtered, hopefully humanely, and not on the scale of those factory farms that produce for the meat industry, reared under terrible conditions.
I think I’ve discovered an interesting trick: if people can offer you advice on how best to say what you’re saying, then they can distract / excuse themselves from paying attention to what you’re saying.
Janine, Mothokoa, etc.: no matter what approach advocacy takes, there will always be someone who disagrees with the style. Why bother so much when it’s quite clear what is being said when you mix all the individual voices together?
In other words, instead of fixating on approach, how about focusing on the content instead?
@Mothokoa: You state: ‘I am a vegan and a proud activist *against* animal rights’. I think you’re a bit confused….
People in my office used to laugh at vegetarians like me ten years ago, until instead of supplying cakes for my birthday, I went to the Hari Krishna temple and ordered some Indian vegetarian cuisine for the whole office for lunch.
They just love it and cannot wait for my birthday each year. They scoff this tasty well balanced nourishing veggie food down like there’s no tomorrow.
Try some vegetarian cuisine yourself, whether it be Indian, Thai, Chinese, Greek, whereever, you too will become adicted.
I will bathe in biltong and I like my steak medium rare thank you.
I have never intentionally been cruel to an animal,
and by God, I am fully against cuelty to animals.
But dare I say it, vegans seem a little obsessed getting at our meat lovers throats.
I understand passion but this is not it, it’s an obsession.
@Clean Air
I think the ‘why vegetarians are no better than meat eaters’ discussion is best left for another time. Organically produced dairy is not a solution. What if the whole world wanted organically produced dairy - the industry would have to grow and BAM - we’re back where we started. Lets not forget - if we’re drinking the milk, what do the veal calves get? Nothing. And I can’t stress this enough - HUMANE SLAUGHTER does NOT make sense. If someone offered to HUMANELY slaughter you, would you be keen?
@Clean Air: Thanks for your great comment on the link between deforestation and meat consumption.
Unfortunately, the organic / ‘free range’ dairy and egg industry is not what you think. Have a look at some of the slideshows here: http://www.humanemyth.org
Keep in mind that on this blog you may just have one or two meat industry representives who are not interested in rational argument, and when losing the debate they try distracting and diversionary tactics.
Spin doctors also eventually contradict themselves if you engage with themselves long enough. Its such fun.
You come across as doctrinare and intolerant. Its people like you who do your cause more harm than good.
There is a difference on the evolutionary scale between humans and animals, some animals eat other animals, some animals eat their own kind, some humans slaughter animals. I don’t believe you will ever change that.
I used to be a meat eater. I am now vegetarian, and if vegans carry on the way you do I won’t be going there.
Good luck with your mission to convince the world to go vegan, though I think you do need to change strategy.
I have just had lunch with some meat eating friends, they bought me a vegetarian quiche and love me to bits because I accept them as they are and they accept me.
I am a beef and mutton farmers son turned vegetarian.
The world is not perfect. I keep a couple of chickens and ducks myself for pets, and buy free range eggs, no matter what the slide shows say.
Although I am vegetarian if meat eaters who don’t know I’m vegetarian ask me what the best meat is to eat I tell them organic.
One has to be ready to make a transition in your life, what I think is important is people need to know the truth as opposed to society’s myths spread by industry spin doctors, i.e. ‘vegan mothers cannot breast feed’ and other drivel, so they can make informed choices when they are ready.
@Clean Air: The world is not perfect, but surely the point is to try make it better, not perpetuate an existing state of affairs through recourse to ‘just so’ stories?
When you say “some animals eat their own kind, some humans slaughter animals. I don’t believe you will ever change that.” you might as well be saying, “some animals rape their young. Some humans rape their young. I don’t believe you will ever change that.”
Here is part of your argument against Jackyl: “I used to be a meat eater. I am now vegetarian, and if vegans carry on the way you do I won’t be going there.”
Let’s reword it subtly and see if Jackyl is as doctrinaire as you feel: “I used to exploit people of other races as slaves and sex objects. Now I just exploit them as slaves. If abolitionists carry on the way you do, I won’t be going there.”
Jackyl is just asking, as am I with my reference to humanemyth.org, for some logical consistency in how your ethics manifest in your lifestyle. I posted a link earlier to a very fair discussion on the vegansociety.co.za website about veganism vs. vegetarianism; perhaps you would benefit from it? You appear to be well versed in the benefits of a meat-free diet, so why not go that one step further instead of hiding behind the mask of blanket acceptance of things that, like slavery, are not rightly acceptable.
@Clean Air: I do agree, by the way, that people need to be informed about the implications of their lifestyles and about positive alternatives. Most vegans share this pragmatic approach. That’s why there are so many exceptional vegan outreach sites online, like, for example, http://www.veganoutreach.org
I also know that people need to be ready to make transitions in their lives; however, that doesn’t mean you can’t help them become ready
@Clean Air
Some vegans are gentle and loving and others prefer to cut the crap … please excuse me if I don’t gently tell others to stop eating sentient beings
The only difference organic dairy makes is the one to your conscience, animals still end up in the same boat. And humane slaughter is a silly and thoughtless concept (I see you didn’t answer my question). Fact. Is there any way I could say that so that it wouldn’t offend?
If you’re thinking of becoming vegan but are put off by vegans carrying on ‘like I do’ then you really aren’t that committed in the first place hey? Why let an angry little vegan like me stop you!
My 2c: I can’t help noticing that the same arguments *for* meat always crop up, none of which as far as I can see are based on facts so much as oft-repeated truisms. However, people better equipped than I have already responded to most of them. Moreover, the compelling economic and environmental arguments have also been touched upon, so I will simply ask this: If you see someone intentionally hurting a woman or a child, will you intervene? I imagine most people would intervene. If the person is not hurting a human but a dog or a cat, what then? I think most people would still try to do something. Now, how about a farm animal? What makes them less sentient or capable of pain and suffering?
I stopped eating meat nearly 11 years ago because I didn’t want animals to have to die for me. Then, in last year, I finally realised that it was essentially meaningless, because all roads for farm animals lead to the slaughterhouse. Even the “organic” and “free range” cows and hens, once they have stopped producing, are killed. I do not expect that the world at large will give up meat. I don’t wish to impose anything on anyone (of course a meat diet imposes on animals but that’s another discussion altogether). But I do hope that people will think about what is on their plate, and what it took to get there.
What I think you need to realise is a moral crusade for animal rights has only limited appeal.
If you want to go around “cutting the crap” and asking people where there ethical consistency is you get their backs up. No wonder you piss meat eaters off.
Make your ethical case and leave it at that, don’t beat it to death like some right wing religous preacher.
I was not comitted to veganism, but was prepared to listen until you wagged your “morally superior” finger at me, now I can sympathise with the meat eaters when you confront them.
If you want to convince people you need to be more warm and cuddly, not percieved as eccentric, radical or fundamentalist.
You will catch more flies with honey than vinigar.
You need to broaden the appeal of your arguments, health benefits of veganism, environmental benefits, economic benefits - lower grocery bills, humanitarian benefits (feed the masses) - i.e. feed more people on a vegan diet than a meaty one, keep direct accusations about peoples ethical consistency out of it.
Clean Air … Hopefully in the future you’ll meet some warm and cuddly vegans who’ll gently guide you towards an ethically consistent lifetyle. I’m sure in the meantime all the ‘organic’ dairy cows and ‘humanely’ slaughtered pigs will give you a big fat high five for actively encouraging their demise.
There, now I’ve beaten it to death like some right wing religious preacher. Sorry, I couldn’t resist
@Clean Air: Thanks for Marketing 101…However, the success of the specific styles of advocacy vegans in SA have chosen to employ speaks for itself:
- For instance, have a look in the major supermarkets and see how many products now have a ‘Vegan’ logo on them. Do you think this is a random phenomenon? No. It’s because so many more South Africans have become vegan in the last three years!
- Or consider that the amount of media space (radio, TV, web and print) dedicated to veganism has grown so rapidly in the same period that there was even an hour long discussion on 702 the other day focusing solely the difference between vegetarianism and veganism. Must be osmosis, hmmm?
- Or, how about if I told you that since this discussion started, the rate of subscriptions to our website has tripled, as it does every time there’s a vegan discussion on a local forum nowadays. Ineffective? Too zealous? Sure…you keep believing that.
Vegans don’t use honey and don’t catch flies. We do have very broad, inclusive arguments that reflect on politics, human rights, etc. and we employ these whenever relevant, as we in fact have in the 100 odd posts above!
Given all this, your reaction looks like nothing more than defensive maneuvering…because, if this weren’t the case, you’d have responded in kind (via logical discussion) to the points we raised about tasty ‘ethical’ cheese and eggs, instead of shooting the messenger
After saying goodbye, just another post that really appeals to my emotional intellectual spiritual makeup on the ‘no meat’ thingy:
The ground breaking film “Killing Fields, the battle to feed factory farms” investigates the impacts of growing soy in South America to feed factory farms in Europe, and can be downloaded in 12 different languages from www.feedingfactoryfarms.org
Soy, grown mostly to feed chickens, cows and pigs in Europe, now covers nearly 11 million hectares in South America - an area equivalent to all the arable farmland in Germany. The film shows that to make way for soy plantations, thousands of people are being forced from their land and with it, losing their ability to grow their own food. Indigenous people are being evicted and forests are being cleared.
Many of the soybeans are genetically modified by the multi-national Monsanto and massively increase the use of pesticides � poisoning rural communities, water sources and the natural environment.
If the EU is serious about addressing climate change, the global loss of biodiversity, human rights, and the food crisis it must urgently reduce its dependence on imports of soy.
A comprehensive briefing on the use of soy can be downloaded from www.foeeurope.org/soy
Just so you know why you should not be eating genetically modified (GM) soya visit:
@Aragorn - The increased amount of vegan stock in supermarkets aren’t there because they care about your cause. Its there because they want your money. It doesn’t mean the vegan cause has merits. argument #FAIL
Citing the amount of space committed to the vegan cause is a bit fallacious. Lots of space and time are being committed towards Julius Malema. Does that mean he’s important? argument #FAIL
Regarding the subscriptions on your website - how many are there? A few hundred? Maybe a few thousand? To what did that triple - a few hundred or a few thousand more? Have you seen South Africa’s latest population growth figures? Also, what does the amount of subscriptions have to do with the truthfulness of your cause? argument #FAIL
Why on earth wold a vegan argument reflect on politics and human rights if its about animals? argument #FAIL
I think emphasizing a vegan diet, rather than a mere vegetarian one is better. A vegetarian diet doesn’t do much, actually. I was a vegetarian for years and still ate unhealthy and used animal products constantly. A vegan diet is the proper one.
Sorry if I was teaching grandma how to suck eggs re: marketing 101. And apologies if my logic is not up to scratch either.
This ethically consistent lifestyle has got me thinking though.
I was wondering, global warming is going to cause great suffering and death to sentient beings, (humans, animals, aquatic life etc). I trust vegans don’t contribute to it by driving petrol cars, this would compromise their consistent ethics would it not?
No electricity from coal fired power stations, CO2 emissions, or nuclear power stations due to uranium mining and radiation from nuke power stations harm humans and animals in the vicinty?
No agricultural veggies, fruit or grains from farmers who use pesticides that accidentally kill frogs, birds etc.
Agriculural runoff has done massive harm to aquatic life in the Hartebeespoort dam.
Even if you eat organically certified veggies, nuts, fruit etc. organic pesticides kill insects, they are just less harmful to the environment.
Do you guys keep dogs and cats that eat meat from slaughtered animals? How many ex race horses have they eaten in tinned pet food?
@Johan Swarts - I don’t think accidentally stepping on an ant is a valid argument, however I would like to ask the vegans whether they use household pesticides?
Do vegans wear jewlry from mines that contaminate rivers killing fish?
Where is the this ethically consistent line drawn suit you?
Ideally we should be living in a cave in the Himalays, living on prana - energised air.
@Johan: “The increased amount of vegan stock in supermarkets aren’t (sic) there because they care about your cause. Its there because they want your money.”
You make my point for me. We’re increasingly catered for as a target market, which almost certainly means there are more of us.
“Citing the amount of space committed to the vegan cause is a bit fallacious. Lots of space and time are being committed towards Julius Malema.”
I’m simply noting a strong correlation and potential causation, post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy in mind. You misconstrue me - I’m not arguing in this specific post for the *importance* of veganism, but rather simply pointing out an increase in interest.
“Regarding the subscriptions on your website - how many are there? A few hundred? Maybe a few thousand? …Have you seen South Africa’s latest population growth figures? Also, what does the amount of subscriptions have to do with the truthfulness of your cause?”
For someone who seems so keen to point out flaws in argumentation style, you’re guilty of some pretty alarming abuses of logic! *I’m not making a truth claim*, simply pointing out a trend. Fail indeed….
“Why on earth wold a vegan argument reflect on politics and human rights if its about animals?”
Your ignorance is underscored by this last statement. Read a bit about what you’re in ostensible opposition to, lest you continue to embarrass yourself more
@Clean Air: Your argument is a common one: vegans are still complicit in *some* cruelty / emissions / whatever, therefore it’s all equivalent.
Apart from the fact that this is obviously false (sneezing on a child and giving them flu is not the same as maliciously injecting the HIV virus into someone) it’s also ironic: you yourself have elected to pursue a vegetarian diet, therefore you already know that it’s not about being perfect, but about doing the *best* you can reasonably be expected to if you share the same basic ethical perspective (not causing unnecessary harm, not destroying the environment any more than necessity dictates, etc.)
Very simply, if you share our views (and you do - see your earlier posts ;-), then veganism is the least you can do.
PS: And yes, most vegans care very much about environmental impact from driving cars, using dirty power, etc. We’re not idiots
What baffles me about vegan ethics is how animals are considered as beings with certain rights - which I am sure isn’t such a far fetched argument. When the fact of evolution and the theory of natural selection is considered, it does make sense to a certain degrees with certain animals. Chimps, for example.
But I digress. What baffles me, is that it suits vegans just fine to antropomorphise animals so as to sympathise with them, but as soon as two of these antropomorphised animals brutally maul each other, that’s considered as natural.
If vegan ethics are taken to its full extent, then ideally Lions, crocodiles, hippos et al should be reprimanded, tried i na court of law and punished for killing deer, wildebeest, humans and other living animals with vegan “rights”.
As @Clean Air, I too would like to know where the line is drawn. One can’t just willy nilly draw a line and move it for another argument, which seems to be what vegan “ethics” do.
@Johan: Your premise is incorrect - vegans do not anthropomorphise animals, they merely observe certain similarities that seem to imply that non-human animals possess various capacities (capacity to suffer, subjectivity and preference, for example) that would/should afford them ethical consideration.
To argue that this is anthropomorphisation is similar to saying that stating that animals have legs and humans also have legs is an anthropomorphising observation…which clearly it’s not.
We would not pass judgement, by the way, on an animal that exhibits behaviour that would be morally offensive were it repeated by an adult human. This is because the non-human animal likely lacks the capacity to reflect on the implications of its actions, just like an infact (to dramatically oversimplify what is in fact a rather nuanced position) pressing a big red button that releases toxic gas into a crowded room lacks the capacity to read the ‘Warning: toxic gas’ sign above the button.
As for the implication that ‘vegan ethics’ are somehow inconsistent or applied willy nilly, I would appreciate a single example of where this is the case. Until such is supplied (I’m not holding my breath), I regard the following as true: veganism is the only lifestyle compatible with a *consistently applied* moral consideration of the basic rights of non-human animals, as justified by indisputable scientific facts about the nature of their bodies and minds.
Vegans do not anthropomorphise animals. Anthropomorphise is an outdated and incorrect way of thinking about animals. It comes from a time before we were able to determine what the physiological causes of certain emotions etc are. As you would expect, animals arent as different to us as our ancestors believed.
“If vegan ethics are taken to its full extent, then ideally Lions, crocodiles, hippos et al should be reprimanded, tried i na court of law and punished for killing deer, wildebeest, humans and other living animals with vegan “rights”. ”
And if we took your point to its logical end, in that trial there would have to be someone that could speak lion , crocodile or hippo in oder for them to have a fair trial. We could also allow them to contribute to the continuing debates around justice by means of a democratic vote. Both impossible and silly, isnt it?
Alternatively, you could see the difference between ‘rights’ as determined by the society in which you live and those (really) inalienable rights like the right to life, the right to clean air, the right to fresh water. You could also acknowledge that ethics/justice considers culpability and whether the accused could reasonably be expected to understand that what they did was wrong. There is no way that you can apply human justice to Animals but you can easily apply human ethics to your own behaviour.
I have enjoyed debating with you. You have not convinced me to go vegan yet.
A few weeks ago I had a letter published in a newspaper promoting ‘World go vegan week’ even though I am not one, I was then taken aback after my ‘good deed’ that I should have my ethical consistency questioned, and have quite an angry young vegan (Jackyl) on my case.
I believe you can only really use the ethical consistency argument if no finger can be pointed at vegans. Promote their ethical ways yes, but be cautious about calling others ethically inconsistent. In this imperfect world there is always wiggle room for someone to find some cruelty vegans cause.
Secondly, I was sincere when I suggested my marketing 101 ideas. I have always found it easier to wins an argument with people like our fellow debater Johan Swarts (above) by speaking of vegetarianism in terms of economic, health, environmetal benefits and feeding the starving, than on the basis of cruelty, ethics etc.
I will be rooting for you during “World Go Vegan Week”.
PS. I live on a smallholding and use flystrips to catch flies.
@Clean Air: Thanks - you’ve been one of the more lucid commenters and I’ve enjoyed listening to your reasonably expressed views
Here is my sole point of disagreement: vegans act consistently when cruelty is located and it is upon this consistency of action based on ethics that I base my argument. For example, if it is discovered that the shoelaces I use are somehow related to the exploitation of animals then my vegan principles impel me to actively seek alternatives. What you seem to advocate, in place of this, is to shrug off such new discoveries with, ‘ah well, nobody is perfect.’
You’re right, nobody is perfect, but we are all afforded countless opportunities to move towards or away from our ideals through our decisions and actions. If we are moving towards them, it’s likely that few people will mind much about whether or not we have to use flystrips
I agree with your marketing 101 approach as a way to engage people in a discussion around veganism, environmentalism, social justice, etc. but would add the provisio that it is reliant upon context: if somebody has already started arguing the ethics (as has happened here), it’s usually necessary (and, fortunately, rather easy) to engage them on that level.
Thanks again for your temperance and for your ongoing commitment to the important issues we’re discussing
Humans and animals differ. Animals act according to instinct, humans have a conscience and can make logical and/or ethical choices etc.
I beleive it is wrong to stop carnivores eating meat, God never intended it that way. To stop them would be contrary to Natural Law. On the other hand God made humans in a higher form, His own image dare I say.
Humans can choose to eat meat, go vegetarian, go vegan. If animals are given a choice they eat what God ‘designed’ them to eat. Cows are naturally herbivores, baboons omnivores, and lions carnivores. Make a cow eat her own kind and mad cow disease is a possibility, force a lion to eat pasture and it dies of hunger.
As humans, it depends on what spins your wheels, sometimes its ethics, sometimes health, sometimes environment, sometimes peer pressure (braai vleis, rugby, sunny skies and Chevrolet) etc.
@Clean Air … I challenged you because you buy free range eggs and promote organic dairy and humane slaughter - I believe you’re more dangerous to the cause than a meat eater. Sorry if I came off as angry - I was simply being straight forward *shrug*.
Fantastic and insightful article, thanks Jarred.
The tasteless and derogatory comments made by many of the meat-eaters is a true reflection of their cruel, selfish and heartless nature. And thereby they discredit only themselves, because it gives a clear picture of what goes on inside their hearts and minds. They will pursue their selfish habits and lifestyles no matter what the cost, and I can’t help but feel sorry for them. I have long ago made peace with the fact that for as long as I stand up for animal rights I will be exposed to the hateful remarks and attitudes of people like them. My comfort is that at least I have a clear conscience, and despite their attittudes and influences I have managed to stay true to myself and my beliefs.
Did you get my comment?- Cannot agree more. Re planned sacrifices of cows at all stadia next year. This requires world wide protests. Got an enquiry by a German newspaper in Berlin. Like to communicate with you, please. Michael
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Jarred Cinman is software director at Cambrient, South Africa's leading developer of web applications. He co-founded Johannesburg's first professional web development company and was one of the founders of VWV Interactive, for many years the premier creative web business in the country, winning numerous Loeries and various international awards. In 2001, Jarred co-founded Cambrient, which has, in its six-year history, built the leading local content management system and serviced an impressive list of corporate customers. Cambrient Contentsuite is also the engine behind Moneyweb.
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Thanks for an interesting read. Be prepared to be slaughtered yourself though!
(Some can’t stand the truth- see: http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/bilalranderee/2008/08/15/why-i‘m-a-vegetarian/
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