Somebody told me a while ago that there are now a million South Africans living in Australia, and a similar number in the UK. I guess between Canada, the US and elsewhere, there must be at least half that same number again out there looking for a better life. Or having found it already.
I have no real idea if these figures are correct, but I assume they’re in the ballpark. Kind of a scary statistic, and one that immediately causes two thoughts in my own head. First, what has this country lost, to the gain of the Australians or the English? And second, have these people been wise to cart their belongings off to far shores, leaving us tend the ticking bomb?
There is no doubt that if we have lost in the region of two to three million South Africans, the vast majority were educated and skilled. These other first world countries have, to borrow a brilliant mixed-metaphor I heard recently, cherry-picked the cream of the crop. This is obvious since the entrance requirements into these countries are notoriously stringent. Wealth, education, experience and talent are all prized and selected for. To say nothing of the money one requires in any event to undertake such a move.
If these people were still here, there is also no question that some things would be very different for those of us still here. There would be far fewer young executives, many of whom were promoted long before their time through sheer lack of available talent in the generation above. There would be a lot more competition for resources, and a lot more competition in general.
Now you may well argue that growth would also be faster and innovation greater, thus creating more for everyone. This may be true, although I do tend to think many of the emigrants are not the innovator class, but those tending to be more risk-averse. Emigration is, after all, a lot to do with diminishing risk. We all know there is plenty of money to be made here, and probably a lot more easily than in big first world cities where competition is indeed fierce.
As to whether we have the bomb and they have the freedom, that goes to how one looks to the future. In the past six to 12 months, this country has been gripped by Afro-pessimism that I haven’t experienced since 1994. And that combined with global recession fears, high oil prices and the Zimbacle up north has generated what feels like steady stream of people leaving.
As with any fears of this nature, they are part truth, part falsehood; part informed by personal experience, and part informed by the rantings of the mass media and alarmism at the water cooler. In the end, the decision to leave is a selfish one, one focused on self-preservation and personal gain. That is not to judge it as wrong, simply to notice that an essential part of the decision is to make a break with your country, your home, and to put yourself, and your loved ones, first.
It doesn’t take much to make people feel insecure. And in a country in which we have lived with insecurity for the better part of 50 years (at least) it takes just about nothing to persuade South Africans that doom is upon us. We have all expected that moment for what feels like forever anyway.
In the past year we have faced the prospect of Eskom plunging our country into perpetual darkness (it’s now been something like three months since the last load-shed, three months of cold winter nights I might add); xenophobic attacks on foreign nationals in the townships (horrible, but apparently largely under control now); the ridiculous Zimbabwe elections (even this, I may note, seems to be finally being negotiated toward a settlement) and lots of bad economic news (including what now appear to be vastly over-stated inflation numbers).
In the past 15 years, we have had to rebuild an economy crippled by sanctions, and sitting at inflation levels of over 30%; the ravages of HIV/Aids; having to build houses and provide electricity and basic services to millions of people living in the most abject poverty imaginable; and relentless, and often brutal, crime.
No one can argue we have won any of these battles decisively, or overcome the obstacles without tripping up. And maybe we never will. The point I’m making is that there has always been reason to pick up and leave, to go somewhere quieter, law-abiding and economically stable. And there always will be, at least for the farthest foreseeable future, I can imagine.
Which means either one accepts that nature of South Africa and stays with that acceptance, or one stays living in a hell of fear and misery, constantly looking longingly over the ocean to paradise on the other side. Which, let’s face it, is no way to live.
The ex-pats are gone. There is not going to be some day in the future when all is well back home, and they come streaming back in their millions. Many who left in the 90′s now have children that are Australians or Canadians. Like my parents whose parents came from Lithuania or Estonia or Latvia, this generation has only tenuous links back to South Africa. And their children — a generation already a twinkle in the eyes — will have even less. They will hear stories and talk, and they may visit, but their connection to what we are here will be severed.
Those who have left are lost to us, whether we like it or not. We can be resentful and angry, as I sometimes am, and say “good riddance”. Or we can feel sad for the loss of so many good friends and smart citizens.
So, in fact, there are no South Africans living abroad, because their South African-ness is gone. There were many returnees in the late 90′s, some who had been in exile, some who had left earlier in the decade and not found what they had hoped for and wanted to be a part of the rainbow nation again. But those who have left since, or who have not returned are of a different ilk. Like my grandparents or the Italians or Irish who went to America in search of something new, this group are not temporarily displaced. They have thrown their lot in with another team, and we must consider them permanently out of ours.
We who remain, I believe, must endeavour to accept the South Africa we are a part of, and do our best to make it work. And those who have gone must endeavour to leave us to it, and get on with becoming the best Americans or British they can be.
The work ahead is to try and be a country in which the reasons to stay outweigh the reasons to leave. The world has become a far smaller place anyway, for all countries, and moving around has never been more possible or desirable. So we are vulnerable at a time when the borders are paper-thin.
But the most important perspective to keep is that South Africa remains a country of great opportunity. Look at the cranes towering over Sandton’s skyline; listen to the stories of South African business success out into the African continent, and you will realise an undeniable fact: that we are still building something here, building the greatest and most powerful country south of the Sahara. And sure, you may not care for that, or for how its turning out, or for the hardship inherent in the project. But if you do there is a great deal here to look forward to.
Oh, Luddite, what is your take on the following report by the SABC (now the ANC’s uncritical mouthpiece and therefore probably an exception to the reputable media I referred to), to which I provided a link above:
“The Public Service Commission says corruption has turned South Africa into a sick society and the establishment of an Anti-Corruption Forum in 1999 has not served as a deterrent.”
If even your own side are reporting the scale of the problem, then I really do suggest you admit defeat on this one.
@ No one in particular.
The moderating here is both painfully slow and inconsistent. It takes ages for posts to clear and I notice than one post (posted before some others which have made it through) has not yet made it.
For all the manifest faults of the M&G Guardian (still plowing away on its ownsome), it at least had the merits of immediacy.
Thats should read:
For all the manifest faults of the M&G FORUM (still plowing away on its ownsome), it at least had the merits of immediacy.
Richard P
news media feed on pessimism, it’s their life blood.
I am not “one of those axe grinders all too often found in African countries who believe that critical press is simply neo-colonialist propaganda and that the media has a patriotic duty to be positive”. Rather, I’d like to have a media that actual cares whether they report the truth or not.
The media in SA is, on all accounts, crap. Not just the SABC, who you decry as propaganda (can you give me some proof of that by the way?), by just about all newspapers and especially, Etv.
The are beholden to advertisers, not to the citizenry. The are not the vanguard of free-speech, they are pornographers of bullshit (Read Harry G Frankenfurter’s ‘On Bullshit’ for an academic definition).
Also, read ‘Blackwater’ by Richard Scahill (might have the spelling of the author wrong) on the levels of US corruption. Or any number of recent books on the Bush administration and then tell me that SA’s democracy is done-for because we have a few politicians with hands in the till.
I can tell you from personal experience and study on this matter, SA has some of the best anti-corruption mechanisms in place. So much so, that it makes the functioning of govt very difficult at times. Not that’d you would care about that, coz it’s jsut another way that SA is a useless govt right?
@ Leesie
“Why are you so angry at Luddite? What’s it to you if he’s deluded? Like you, I have family in SA and I worry about them constantly, but I’m grateful that people like Luddite are there giving it a go. God knows the place needs people who care.”
I am not ANGRY at Luddite; I am not even that irritated. I am just perplexed.
“Richard – I suggest you read more Business Day, M&G and The Economist and less News24 and iAfrica. Subscribe to SAGoodNews and read opinion columns as well as headlines. You know that good news very seldom makes the headlines. Even here in Britain, you’re not going to read about the hundreds of underpriviledged children being helped to better themselves, but one instance of knife crime and its rolling news for three days.”
The Economist is a UK weekly to which I subscribe.
News24 is overflowing with bad news stories (to the extent that I rarely bother with; it is just too depressing) and I regularly read the M&G online.
As for SAGoodNews, it is a bit too rose-tinted for my cynical eyes. I do not deny that much good stuff is being done by many SAns in SA, but unless the government gets its stuff together, then it is a bit like admiring the wonderful music played by the orchestra as the Titanic heads towards the iceberg.
@ Jack
Thoughtleader really does P me off; suddenly a post of yours appears way up and I only just notice it.
“South Africa was always (very) corrupt – even you would not claim that Apartheid was NOT corrupt – the corruption was just censored out of the media by the Apartheid state. The “gravy-train mentality” has always been present amongst all races in S.A. – it did not miraculously arrive out of the blue after 1994. Corruption was just restricted from flourishing openly prior to that due to the repressive nature of the old system (police state?)
As a white South African person you might even have been under the illusion that there were no corruption, because it would not have affected you so negatively. If you were a Black person in South African prior to 1994 you were certainly very aware of (state) corruption…
The reference points for the current corruption in this country lies right here in this country – pre-1994.
You only seemed to have become disillusioned with corruption post 1994. You seem to have created in your mind this expectation of a utopian, corruption free, perfectly democratic New South Africa and have set yourself up for total disillusion and disappointment.
Come down to earth.”
Nonsense.
I have always known (and knew at the time) that apartheid was a deeply corrupt (as well as repressive) system. Given the choice between apartheid SA and the SA of today, I would (notwithstanding my despair at the current situation) not hesitate for a nanosecond to choose today’s SA.
I did not need to be disillusioned; I already knew the state was rotten, and was planning on getting the hell out of Dodge in 1989 (my final year of university). As it was, I decided to hang in there (I was all rosy eyed and full-hearted in 1994, vowing never to leave and to stay and contribute; oh happy days) and only left in 1999 (for purely personal reasons; politics, crime and the economy did not feature in my decision, although they now militate strongly against any likelihood of my ever returning).
I regard those who indulge in apartheid nostalgia with contempt. For all its many faults, the current SA government has a pretty damned good record on respecting human rights in SA (and I hope to God it stays that way).
I have become disillusioned with corruption post 1994 for the simple reason that I expected that things would be one helluva lot better under the new order. I did not expect moonlight and roses and knew there was a massive mountain to climb, but I did expect that the government would be accountable and intolerant of corruption (as inevitable as it might have been).
Instead, what we have is a distant and unaccountable regime, indulging the corruption of its apparatchiks and showing an increasingly unhealthy interest in holding on to power, come bloody what may.
Yes, I will hold the government to high standards and all other SAns should. To excuse it failing to step up to the mark in those areas within its power, simply because it is new to this whole governing lark (FFS, it has been in power over 14 years already and things are looking worse than they did when it was in fact a newbie)
and because of what happened under apartheid, is inviting things to continue heading south.
Stop making excuses!
@ Luddite,
“news media feed on pessimism, it’s their life blood.”
Bad news has always sold more than good news, but unless you can satisfy me that what they are reporting is a pack of lies, then I stand by what I say.
“I am not “one of those axe grinders all too often found in African countries who believe that critical press is simply neo-colonialist propaganda and that the media has a patriotic duty to be positive”. Rather, I’d like to have a media that actual cares whether they report the truth or not.”
Hmmm. That’s what Mad Bad Bob Mugabe says about critical media: lies, all lies. I can’t help but be cynical about your stance.
“The media in SA is, on all accounts, crap. Not just the SABC, who you decry as propaganda (can you give me some proof of that by the way?), by just about all newspapers and especially, Etv.”
The SA media is not nearly the same standard as the UK broadsheets and the BBC, to be sure, but the Sunday Crimes does a good job of investigative journalism and I rate the M&G and Sunday Independent.
As for the SABC, it was His Masters Voice under apartheid and, apart from a brief shining moment in the 1990s, has reverted very much to type. The TV news is unwatchable bovine manure (all “the minister said” and bowing and scraping to the apparatchiks, with barely a nod at the world outside SA).
“The are beholden to advertisers, not to the citizenry. The are not the vanguard of free-speech, they are pornographers of bullshit (Read Harry G Frankenfurter’s ‘On Bullshit’ for an academic definition).”
Oh dear me …
I hardly get the sense that the reporting on SA by what I read here (Guardian, Independent and BBC) and online with SA (mainly M&G) is dictated to by the advertisers.
What you want are polemical rags which read as though they are written by some student who has just discovered radical politics at the age of 19 and is filled with more passion than sense.
Is it not in the interests of the citizenry that government corruption, lies and failures be exposed?. Or do you prefer just so much praise singing?
Do you want the SA press to read like the Harare Herald (that vanguard of independent reporting – NOT).
“Also, read ‘Blackwater’ by Richard Scahill (might have the spelling of the author wrong) on the levels of US corruption. Or any number of recent books on the Bush administration and then tell me that SA’s democracy is done-for because we have a few politicians with hands in the till.”
What has US corruption in Iraq to do with what is happening in SA? Did you look at that corruption index I posted? Did you read those articles I posted?
Crikey, you are in a serious state of denial. 12 steps time, methinks.
“I can tell you from personal experience and study on this matter, SA has some of the best anti-corruption mechanisms in place. So much so, that it makes the functioning of govt very difficult at times. Not that’d you would care about that, coz it’s jsut another way that SA is a useless govt right?”
What mechanisms are these and, more importantly, how effectively are they implemented. Details, not sweeping statements, please.
Yes, I do believe SA has a useless government, and its getting worse. All the evidence points in that direction. Prove me wrong. Give me facts. Or are you incapable of doing so?
@ Richard P (on August 5th, 2008 at 3:09 pm)
“[1]However you choose to spin the stats, the fact remains that SA has one of the worst rates of murder and violent crime in any country not engaged in a war or civil war [2] (and Iraq effectively falls into this category).”
– [1]If you remember – I have covered this point thoroughly in my second post on this thread – I ended it with: “Sandton is not Simonstwon, Mate!”
(Jack on July 26th, 2008 at 10:45 am). In addition, we happen to have far over 5 million tourists visiting South Africa year-on-year (increasing annually – some stats put it as high as 7m) and a very small fraction of those tourists are affected by violent crime. They move and stay within ‘safe-er’ areas and are informed about where to go and where not to go. How do you explain that in light of your above comparison?
- [2] Let me quote you directly (on July 31st, 2008 at 8:03 pm):”It is moronic to compare SA with Iraq”
@ Leesie: (on August 6th, 2008 at 12:32 am)
“…face up to the fact that there are some severe problems there – the very idea of comparing SA to Iraq speaks volumes: one is a war zone the other a supposed democracy in peacetime.”
- Leesie, see above point [1] and [2].
@ Richard P (on August 6th, 2008 at 11:27 am)
RE: The Transparency International Link you posted.
- Your link only proves one thing: That South Africa is in fact not very corrupt. According to your them we are LESS corrupt than 134 other countries, including the following European countries: Slovakia, Latvia, Lithuania, Greece, Poland, Bulgaria + Turkey (potential EU member)
Thank you for that. Thanks for the info.
@ Richard P (on August 6th, 2008 at 11:37 am)
“Do I sense a little bit of hostility to democracy?”
Not at all – I’m just pointing to the elephant in the room. The fact that democracy is so utterly corruptible shows that it’s failing – and you should be concerned about that too. We have in many countries what could/should be called “post-democracy”, Everything RESEMBLES democracy – and is put forward as democracy. That doesn’t mean it IS democracy. By the way, by what margin was Gordon Brown democratically elected into power?
@ Richard P:
“Why should I ignore what is reported by reputable international and SA newspapers” (on August 6th, 2008 at 11:34 am) “…the reputable media I referred to” (on August 6th, 2008 at 12:14 pm).
– Richard, the above two statements prove that you are the most rosy-specced poster on this board and it explains your world-view completely.
…The “reputable media”… Well, the “reputable media” has you hook, line and sinker, my friend. How exactly do you determine what media is “reputable”? According to its funding? It’s point of view? What it doesn’t report? It’s style? Readership? Content? How?
@ Luddite (on August 6th, 2008 at 3:59 pm)
“SA has some of the best anti-corruption mechanisms in place. So much so, that it makes the functioning of govt very difficult at times.”
- Very interesting point, Luddite. Would you be able to provide references? – I would like to read up on it. (And then make some comparisons, with other countries, Richard. It’s called critical analyses and thinking)
Leesie
I apologise if you feel I’ve been making personal attacks. It is certainly not my intention. I think I’ve ben pretty clear that I bear no grudge against those who have left.
The only grudge I have is against those who persist with unrealistic complaints against SA.
Of course we have problems, I’d have to be pretty deluded to think otherwise. More to the point, the problems in SA are, by and large, NORMAL problems that face most countries. People who feel otherwise, in that SA is a sinking ship, tend to have unrealistic views of the world or compare contemporary SA to how things were 30 years ago.
@ Jack
“- [1]If you remember – I have covered this point thoroughly in my second post on this thread – I ended it with: “Sandton is not Simonstwon, Mate!”
(Jack on July 26th, 2008 at 10:45 am). In addition, we happen to have far over 5 million tourists visiting South Africa year-on-year (increasing annually – some stats put it as high as 7m) and a very small fraction of those tourists are affected by violent crime. They move and stay within ’safe-er’ areas and are informed about where to go and where not to go. How do you explain that in light of your above comparison?”
I do not deny that you are at greater risk in some parts of SA than with others, but overall you cannot deny that the SAm rates of violent crime and murder are way ahead of most other countries.
Are you seriously asking me to believe that SA’s crime problem is no worse than that, for example, in the UK or USA? Yes or no?
“- Your link only proves one thing: That South Africa is in fact not very corrupt. According to your them we are LESS corrupt than 134 other countries, including the following European countries: Slovakia, Latvia, Lithuania, Greece, Poland, Bulgaria + Turkey (potential EU member)
Thank you for that. Thanks for the info.”
What it proves is that SA is not as corrupt as other countries. It is certainly more corrupt than 42 other countries. I am not denying that there is corruption in parts of Europe (largely in the former Soviet Bloc), but that in no way minimises or excuses SA corruption.
If the SA Public Service Commission says that corruption has turned South Africa into a sick society and that the establishment of an Anti-Corruption Forum in 1999 has not served as a deterrent, am I meant to believe that corruption is not much of a problem in SA and that what there is, is being effectively tackled?
”
Not at all – I’m just pointing to the elephant in the room. The fact that democracy is so utterly corruptible shows that it’s failing – and you should be concerned about that too. We have in many countries what could/should be called “post-democracy”, Everything RESEMBLES democracy – and is put forward as democracy. That doesn’t mean it IS democracy. By the way, by what margin was Gordon Brown democratically elected into power?”
Oh, for God’s sake. What an utterly spurious argument.
Are you going to suggest to me that Jacob Zuma was elected as ANC president (and SA president in waiting) by the entire SA electorate. Sure, no one stood against Gordon Brown and he will probably get his arse kicked come the next general election, but are you seriously suggesting that the UK is NOT a democracy simply because Brown’s election was uncontested?
Democracy is not perfect, but it is one helluva lot better than the alternatives. Look again at that corruption table I posted a link to and tell me how many repressive or authoritarian regimes are anywhere near the top, then look to the bottom and tell me how many democracies you find there.
The fact is that repressive and authoritarian regimes are far more riddled with, and conducive to, corruption, than democracies.
“@ Richard P:
“Why should I ignore what is reported by reputable international and SA newspapers” (on August 6th, 2008 at 11:34 am) “…the reputable media I referred to” (on August 6th, 2008 at 12:14 pm).
- Richard, the above two statements prove that you are the most rosy-specced poster on this board and it explains your world-view completely.
…The “reputable media”… Well, the “reputable media” has you hook, line and sinker, my friend. How exactly do you determine what media is “reputable”? According to its funding? It’s point of view? What it doesn’t report? It’s style? Readership? Content? How?”
Oh dear, not other type who does not believe anything unless it is a John Pilger rant.
In the UK, I read the Guardian and Independent, and watch the BBC.
As for SA, I read the M&G online and also keep an eye on the Independent website. I also rate, as I mentioned above, the investigative journalism by the Sunday Times.
I am hardly rosy-specced; I am being as objective as I am able.
Are you suggesting that all of the above are yellow, lying rags? Am I to assume that you would prefer the type of “journalism” peddled by the SABC and Harare Herald?
“- Very interesting point, Luddite. Would you be able to provide references? – I would like to read up on it. (And then make some comparisons, with other countries, Richard. It’s called critical analyses and thinking)”
I would also be interested in them.
Luddite and you seem to be keener on shooting the media messenger (a tactic well-honed by the likes of Bob Mugabe) than on providing facts and detail to controvert what I say.
@ Luddite
“More to the point, the problems in SA are, by and large, NORMAL problems that face most countries.”
Much the same as the problems faced here in the UK?
Jawellnofine. Believe what you want to believe.
@ Jack
“We have in many countries what could/should be called “post-democracy”, Everything RESEMBLES democracy – and is put forward as democracy. That doesn’t mean it IS democracy.”
Let me know, please, what countries you DO consider to be democracies.
Richard P
@RP: Are you seriously asking me to believe that SA’s crime problem is no worse than that, for example, in the UK or USA? Yes or no?”
- NO. South Africa is an emerging market in the developing world and it’s crime statistics should be compared with countries in that category.
Even so, our crime levels are very high (!!!) – there’s no disputing that. But we are not the most dangerous or second most (or 3rd, 4th or 5th).Uur crime rates ARE falling, very slowly, but steadily, year-on-year.
To compare SA to Iraq – a living hell, the likes the world hasn’t seen for decades, is truly uncalled for. You never hear anybody from Venezuala, El Salvador, Honduras, Jamaica, Guatamala (higher murder rates than SA) or Colombia compare themselves with Iraq… You never hear the media doing it. BUT (some) South Africans seem very eager to make this type of
sensationalistic, ridiculous comparison. Very Odd.
@RP:.It is certainly more corrupt than 42 other countries. I am not denying that there is corruption in parts of Europe (largely in the former Soviet Bloc), but that in no way minimises or excuses SA corruption.”
- Agreed. How does it then justify statements from you, such as this: (RP:) “SA is headed up pooh creek without any paddle. Best you learn how to swim, and fast. I’m just delighted that I am not there to join you.”
@RP: If the SA Public Service Commission says that corruption has turned South Africa into a sick society and that the establishment of an
Anti-Corruption Forum in 1999 has not served as a deterrent, am I meant to believe that corruption is not much of a problem in SA and that what there is, is being effectively tackled?”
- No, you are not meant to believe its not a very serious problem. It IS. In the South African context its one of our biggest possible challenges and is reported as such and rightly so. BUT – when you apply for an ADSL connection or telephone line, or need to get a bank account, or need to fill up your car with petrol, or need to buy luxury items such as jewellery or perfume, or need to buy a good bottle of whisky (for example), or get a carton of cigarettes, etc, etc. You don’t need to BRIBE somebody for it – you walk into a mall and you buy it – you go to a bank (stand in the queu) and get the service you want – maybe not as quick as in Europe, but you get it – you dont have to bribe the bank clerk, rdo you?? (That’s not to say a traffic cop or a civil servant here might not accept a bribe – but that would be the exception, not the rule.)
Corruption DOES NOT permeate everything in society to the extent that you seem to imply and does not warrant ‘point of no return’ statements such as yours: (RP:) “Of course SA is heading down the crapper…”…but the past couple of years have killed what hope I had for the country.”
@ RP: “Democracy is not perfect, but it is one helluva lot better than the alternatives. Look again at that corruption table I posted a link to and tell me how many repressive or authoritarian regimes are anywhere near the top, then look to the bottom and tell me how many democracies you find there.”
- I did not imply and did not say democracy should be “replaced”. Why would you interpret it like that?. I am saying democracy is utterly corruptible and has been proven to be so, even in First World Countries. You seem to want to whitewash that out of the equation. It sounds to me like you are saying corruption is okay, as long as it is “democratic” corruption.
@ RP: Oh, for God’s sake. What an utterly spurious argument.
- I could have phrased my question like this: By what percentage of the electorate (not seats) did the labour party (who appointed Brown) win the last UK elections?
Here’s something from one of your favourite newspapers – incidentally a paper I used to read in the UK too:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-we-need-proportional-representation-but-whats-on-offer-will-just-make-matters-worse-802741.html
@ RP: Are you suggesting that all of the above are yellow, lying rags?
- I am saying all of the above practice selective reporting – that’s hardly a mind blowing revelation.
@ RP: Am I to assume that you would prefer the type of “journalism” peddled by the SABC and Harare Herald?
- No, I’m suggesting you read very widely, very sceptically, very critically and WAY beyond newspapers. Visit Waterstones often – too many mouthwatering books on politics to choose from – don’t be too selective – read opposing points of view. Seek out the bigger picture. And don’t stop reading.
My mind is reeling! It has taken me 2 hours just to concentrate on READING this! So excuse me if I am a little punch drunk!
Richard P
Keep it up. Your concern is appreciated. It must be taking up a lot of your time just to keep informed and in touch. Much of the criticism of you comes from denial and fear. Actually, it is often only from safety OUTSIDE the problem that real analysis can be done.
As for state corruption – it exists in all states. However, much of the corruption under the Nats was connected to avoidance of sanctions. Had they not done so – the ANC would have inherited a desert. When POLITICIANS were found to have raided the public purse, or have mislead the public, such as in the Information Scandal, heads rolled and people lost their jobs. This DOES NOT happen now. If anything they get rewarded – Yengeni, Boersak?
There is a problem with the moderation on TL. Another commentator and I have had the same problem. If they hold up a comment , they eventually slot it in to its time frame – miles above the current discourse, so no-one will read it. Either censor out the comment, or slot it in at the end. Someone should take this up.
HOW do you speak to your mom so much? I have just had my phone bill and nearly freaked out – half my rent! AND I speak very little. Would love to speak every day!
Leesie
Thoughful analysis. Keep it up.
Luddite
In every sphere of government, including anti-corruption, we have great measures in place – AND no-one with the ability to perform! By all accounts that I have read the ANC in exile was the same – full of talk, and theories, but absolutely no action. Plus how can you eradicate corruption when the corrupt are never fired – like Yengeni and Boersak and the Travelgate fraudsters and possibly also Zuma?
The problem is, Richard. Your dishonesty discredits you.
“NO. South Africa is an emerging market in the developing world and it’s crime statistics should be compared with countries in that category.
Even so, our crime levels are very high (!!!) – there’s no disputing that. But we are not the most dangerous or second most (or 3rd, 4th or 5th).Uur crime rates ARE falling, very slowly, but steadily, year-on-year.
To compare SA to Iraq – a living hell, the likes the world hasn’t seen for decades, is truly uncalled for. You never hear anybody from Venezuala, El Salvador, Honduras, Jamaica, Guatamala (higher murder rates than SA) or Colombia compare themselves with Iraq… You never hear the media doing it. BUT (some) South Africans seem very eager to make this type of
sensationalistic, ridiculous comparison. Very Odd.”
Well, if I stand corrected, I stand corrected.
Are you suggesting to me that the proliferation of armed response units, anti-hijacking courses and people leaving SA because of crime fears, is just so much baseless hysteria?
Even taking your argument at face value, that SA is actually somewhere between 10 and 15 on the list of most violent countries crimewise, that still puts SA in the worst 8% of all countries in the world. Still doesn’t look good, does it?
You claim that SA crime rates are falling. Please let me have a link to these stats and let me know how reliable these are.
“Agreed. How does it then justify statements from you, such as this: (RP:) “SA is headed up pooh creek without any paddle. Best you learn how to swim, and fast. I’m just delighted that I am not there to join you.””
Well, I have been feeling extremely negative about SA’s prospects, based on what I have read ad on what friends and family still living in SA (some previously quite positive) have told me. It’s not just crime and corruption. It is also a growing culture of xenophobia, racial divisiveness and political intolerance, coupled with what I understand to be a decaying infrastructure (potholes in roads, Eskom loadshedding, etc), not to forget the way that SA has become what has been referred to as a “rogue democracy” which cosies up to nasty regimes like Zimbabwe, Sudan and Burma.
I read articles like the following (and none of the newspapers in question have an axe to grind against SA) and simply despair:
http://www.economist.com/world/mideast-africa/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11893529
http://news.scotsman.com/politics/Mandela39s-glorious-legacy-under-threat.4301614.jp
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/leading_article/article4133330.ece
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/international/world_cup/article4133483.ece
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/25/southafrica
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/leading-articles/leading-article-lessons-for-mbeki-834329.html
Frankly, international perceptions of SA now stink. Apart from the continued love affair with Madiba, the post apartheid honeymoon is well and truly over.
Yet, I am expected to believe that things really aren’t so bad in SA and that alles sal regkom.
“No, you are not meant to believe its not a very serious problem. It IS. In the South African context its one of our biggest possible challenges and is reported as such and rightly so. BUT – when you apply for an ADSL connection or telephone line, or need to get a bank account, or need to fill up your car with petrol, or need to buy luxury items such as jewellery or perfume, or need to buy a good bottle of whisky (for example), or get a carton of cigarettes, etc, etc. You don’t need to BRIBE somebody for it – you walk into a mall and you buy it – you go to a bank (stand in the queu) and get the service you want – maybe not as quick as in Europe, but you get it – you dont have to bribe the bank clerk, rdo you?? (That’s not to say a traffic cop or a civil servant here might not accept a bribe – but that would be the exception, not the rule.)
Corruption DOES NOT permeate everything in society to the extent that you seem to imply and does not warrant ‘point of no return’ statements such as yours: (RP:) “Of course SA is heading down the crapper…”…but the past couple of years have killed what hope I had for the country.””
I am quite happy to admit that corruption in SA is not even remotely close to, for example, Nigerian or Russian levels, and the San private sector seems relatively untouched, but the rot seems to be spreading in the public sector. I would be delighted to see some evidence that the government is taking effective action against this.
“I did not imply and did not say democracy should be “replaced”. Why would you interpret it like that?. I am saying democracy is utterly corruptible and has been proven to be so, even in First World Countries. You seem to want to whitewash that out of the equation. It sounds to me like you are saying corruption is okay, as long as it is “democratic” corruption. “
You seemed to focus you ire on democracies, that’s why. And I am still waiting for an answer to my question regarding what countries you DO regard as democracies.
“I could have phrased my question like this: By what percentage of the electorate (not seats) did the labour party (who appointed Brown) win the last UK elections?
Here’s something from one of your favourite newspapers – incidentally a paper I used to read in the UK too:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-we-need-proportional-representation-but-whats-on-offer-will-just-make-matters-worse-802741.html”
The first-past-the-post system is not perfect and I am inclined to support PR (although I do have reservations that it could lead to very small parties being able to wield power way beyond their numbers, as happens in countries like Israel when coalitions are assembled). That said, I do not believe that one can seriously argue that the Westminster system is NOT democratic. In any event, the real problem is voter apathy; politics isn’t very exciting to the average joe any longer.
“I am saying all of the above practice selective reporting – that’s hardly a mind blowing revelation.”
Are you suggesting that what the SA and international press DO report is a pack of lies?
Am I to disbelieve what I read? What exactly is being left out which would introduce sunshine into my life?
“No, I’m suggesting you read very widely, very sceptically, very critically and WAY beyond newspapers. Visit Waterstones often – too many mouthwatering books on politics to choose from – don’t be too selective – read opposing points of view. Seek out the bigger picture. And don’t stop “
Well, I do visit Waterstones and read widely, but this is a discussion about SA today and I do not see what I will find in Waterstones that will be relevant to that.
Frankly, I would love to feel more positive.
I loathe racist apartheid nostalgists wallowing in schadenfreude like the cretins who post here: http://zahell.blogspot.com/
But I am also deeply irritated by the Pollyannaism of this website: http://www.homecomingrevolution.co.za/ which simply offers stories which knock other countries and are all motivational fluff and no substance.
Which leaves me with reading what I do and speaking to family and friends in SA. I have not been in SA for nearly 3 years, and perhaps my visit next year might alter my perspective, but I remain deeply pessimistic about SA’s future and need hard cold facts to know why the combination of the following are no justification for that feeling:
1) Crime and the government’s apparent unwillingness and inability to deal with it (to the point of denialism)
Eskom loadshedding (caused by government short-sightedness and incompetence)
2) Growing corruption in the public sector and the government’s apparent unwillingness and inability to deal with it
3) Murderous xenophobia
4) A growing culture of political intolerance (you only have to read what Zuma’s supporters are saying)
5) AA and BEE, which look to be with SA forever and a day, and are just pork barrel politics which distort the labour market and economy and drive people away
6) Government support for repressive regimes like Zimbabwe, Burma and Sudan
7) Militant trade unionism, where people even go on strike because the economy is not going their way (a real case of cutting one’s nose to spite one’s face)
9) A decaying infrastructure (potholes in roads, etc)
10) AIDS and government denialism and inaction (in particular the continued presence of that clown Manto as Health Minister)
I could go on, but those are the issues which get me going.
Lyndall,
“HOW do you speak to your mom so much? I have just had my phone bill and nearly freaked out – half my rent! AND I speak very little. Would love to speak every day!”
I do all the calling from the UK. You can get special rates on BT (a couple of pence a minute) or use a service like Alpha Telecom ( http://www.alphatelecom.com/uk/) Skype is another alternative if everyone has computers (free calls!).
Good luck!
Lyndall Beddy
Can I get the name of your dealer? Coz you must have some pretty wacky-tobaccy.
Yengeni and Boesak went to jail, Zuma is being prosecuted.
I get the impression that nothing will ever be good enough for you or Richard P
3rd time lucky? I will do this in bite sized chunks.
@ Jack
“NO. South Africa is an emerging market in the developing world and it’s crime statistics should be compared with countries in that category.
Even so, our crime levels are very high (!!!) – there’s no disputing that. But we are not the most dangerous or second most (or 3rd, 4th or 5th).Uur crime rates ARE falling, very slowly, but steadily, year-on-year.
To compare SA to Iraq – a living hell, the likes the world hasn’t seen for decades, is truly uncalled for. You never hear anybody from Venezuala, El Salvador, Honduras, Jamaica, Guatamala (higher murder rates than SA) or Colombia compare themselves with Iraq… You never hear the media doing it. BUT (some) South Africans seem very eager to make this type of
sensationalistic, ridiculous comparison. Very Odd.”
Well, if I stand corrected, I stand corrected.
Are you suggesting to me that the proliferation of armed response units, anti-hijacking courses and people leaving SA because of crime fears, is just so much baseless hysteria?
Even taking your argument at face value, that SA is actually somewhere between 10 and 15 on the list of most violent countries crimewise, that still puts SA in the worst 8% of all countries in the world. Still doesn’t look good, does it?
You claim that SA crime rates are falling. Please let me have a link to these stats and let me know how reliable these are.
@ Jack
“Agreed. How does it then justify statements from you, such as this: (RP:) “SA is headed up pooh creek without any paddle. Best you learn how to swim, and fast. I’m just delighted that I am not there to join you.””
Well, I have been feeling extremely negative about SA’s prospects, based on what I have read ad on what friends and family still living in SA (some previously quite positive) have told me. It’s not just crime and corruption. It is also a growing culture of xenophobia, racial divisiveness and political intolerance, coupled with what I understand to be a decaying infrastructure (potholes in roads, Eskom loadshedding, etc), not to forget the way that SA has become what has been referred to as a “rogue democracy” which cosies up to nasty regimes like Zimbabwe, Sudan and Burma.
I read articles like the following (and none of the newspapers in question have an axe to grind against SA) and simply despair:
http://www.economist.com/world/mideast-africa/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11893529
http://news.scotsman.com/politics/Mandela39s-glorious-legacy-under-threat.4301614.jp
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/leading_article/article4133330.ece
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/international/world_cup/article4133483.ece
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/25/southafrica
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/leading-articles/leading-article-lessons-for-mbeki-834329.html
Frankly, international perceptions of SA now stink. Apart from the continued love affair with Madiba, the post apartheid honeymoon is well and truly over.
Yet, I am expected to believe that things really aren’t so bad in SA and that alles sal regkom.
@ Jack
“No, you are not meant to believe its not a very serious problem. It IS. In the South African context its one of our biggest possible challenges and is reported as such and rightly so. BUT – when you apply for an ADSL connection or telephone line, or need to get a bank account, or need to fill up your car with petrol, or need to buy luxury items such as jewellery or perfume, or need to buy a good bottle of whisky (for example), or get a carton of cigarettes, etc, etc. You don’t need to BRIBE somebody for it – you walk into a mall and you buy it – you go to a bank (stand in the queu) and get the service you want – maybe not as quick as in Europe, but you get it – you dont have to bribe the bank clerk, rdo you?? (That’s not to say a traffic cop or a civil servant here might not accept a bribe – but that would be the exception, not the rule.)
Corruption DOES NOT permeate everything in society to the extent that you seem to imply and does not warrant ‘point of no return’ statements such as yours: (RP:) “Of course SA is heading down the crapper…”…but the past couple of years have killed what hope I had for the country.””
I am quite happy to admit that corruption in SA is not even remotely close to, for example, Nigerian or Russian levels, and the San private sector seems relatively untouched, but the rot seems to be spreading in the public sector. I would be delighted to see some evidence that the government is taking effective action against this.
@ Jack
“I did not imply and did not say democracy should be “replaced”. Why would you interpret it like that?. I am saying democracy is utterly corruptible and has been proven to be so, even in First World Countries. You seem to want to whitewash that out of the equation. It sounds to me like you are saying corruption is okay, as long as it is “democratic” corruption. “
You seemed to focus you ire on democracies, that’s why. And I am still waiting for an answer to my question regarding what countries you DO regard as democracies.
“I could have phrased my question like this: By what percentage of the electorate (not seats) did the labour party (who appointed Brown) win the last UK elections?
Here’s something from one of your favourite newspapers – incidentally a paper I used to read in the UK too:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-we-need-proportional-representation-but-whats-on-offer-will-just-make-matters-worse-802741.html”
The first-past-the-post system is not perfect and I am inclined to support PR (although I do have reservations that it could lead to very small parties being able to wield power way beyond their numbers, as happens in countries like Israel when coalitions are assembled). That said, I do not believe that one can seriously argue that the Westminster system is NOT democratic. In any event, the real problem is voter apathy; politics isn’t very exciting to the average joe any longer.
@ Jack
“I am saying all of the above practice selective reporting – that’s hardly a mind blowing revelation.”
Are you suggesting that what the SA and international press DO report is a pack of lies? Am I to disbelieve what I read? What exactly is being left out which would introduce sunshine into my life?
“No, I’m suggesting you read very widely, very sceptically, very critically and WAY beyond newspapers. Visit Waterstones often – too many mouthwatering books on politics to choose from – don’t be too selective – read opposing points of view. Seek out the bigger picture. And don’t stop “
Well, I do visit Waterstones and read widely, but this is a discussion about SA today and I do not see what I will find in Waterstones that will be relevant to that.
Frankly, I would love to feel more positive.
I loathe racist apartheid nostalgists wallowing in schadenfreude like the cretins who post here: http://zahell.blogspot.com/
But I am also deeply irritated by the Pollyannaism of this website: http://www.homecomingrevolution.co.za/ which simply offers stories which knock other countries and are all motivational fluff and no substance.
Which leaves me with reading what I do and speaking to family and friends in SA. I have not been in SA for nearly 3 years, and perhaps my visit next year might alter my perspective, but I remain deeply pessimistic about SA’s future and need hard cold facts to know why the combination of the following are no justification for that feeling:
1) Crime and the government’s apparent unwillingness and inability to deal with it (to the point of denialism)
Eskom loadshedding (caused by government short-sightedness and incompetence)
2) Growing corruption in the public sector and the government’s apparent unwillingness and inability to deal with it
3) Murderous xenophobia
4) A growing culture of political intolerance (you only have to read what Zuma’s supporters are saying)
5) AA and BEE, which look to be with SA forever and a day, and are just pork barrel politics which distort the labour market and economy and drive people away
6) Government support for repressive regimes like Zimbabwe, Burma and Sudan
7) Militant trade unionism, where people even go on strike because the economy is not going their way (a real case of cutting one’s nose to spite one’s face)
9) A decaying infrastructure (potholes in roads, etc)
10) AIDS and government denialism and inaction (in particular the continued presence of that clown Manto as Health Minister)
I could go on, but those are the issues which get me going.
@ Luddite
Lyndall Beddy
“Can I get the name of your dealer? Coz you must have some pretty wacky-tobaccy.”
If any poster on this thread is smoking zol, it is you.
“Yengeni and Boesak went to jail, Zuma is being prosecuted.”
Tony Yengeni spent all of five months of a four-year sentence in jail, and emerged on the shoulders of ANC supporters.
Allan Boesak served just over one year of his three year sentence, and was then granted a presidential pardon.
The ANC really takes corruption seriously, hey?
It will be interesting to see if Zuma gets sent down and, if he is, how long he spends in chookie.
And would you be so kind as to remind me what prosecutions/disciplinary action followed Travelgate? Shouldn’t take you long…
“I get the impression that nothing will ever be good enough for you or Richard P”
It’s not my fault if you have standards so low, you could sweep the floor with them.
Let’s analyse your arguments on this thread:
1) You don’t care why expats left SA and want us to stop justifying our pessimism
2) Someone who calls you a “caustic cretin” has a twisted world view and is a bigot, when there was absolutely nothing in his post to indicate that (you were just upthet he was nasty to you)
3) SA is relatively safe because the Portuguese foreign minister only needs 1 or 2 bodyguards when in shopping Menlyn Park of all places
4) Other parts of the world also experience xenophobia and crime
5) Corruption in SA is a problem but is relatively corruption free compared with the US and UK
6) The news media who report SA’s problems can’t be trusted
7) SA has some unspecified anti-corruption mechanisms in place.
That’s it. That’s all you have effectively been able to contribute to this debate. Oh dearie dearie me …
@ Jack
“The problem is, Richard. Your dishonesty discredits you.”
And what dishonesty would this be? Substantiate please.
@ Lyndall
“As for state corruption – it exists in all states. However, much of the corruption under the Nats was connected to avoidance of sanctions. Had they not done so – the ANC would have inherited a desert. When POLITICIANS were found to have raided the public purse, or have mislead the public, such as in the Information Scandal, heads rolled and people lost their jobs.”
Apartheid SA was rotten with corruption. Read this:
http://www.issafrica.org/dynamic/administration/file_manager/file_links/APARTHEIDGRANDC2.PDF?link_id=23&slink_id=2747&link_type=12&slink_type=13&tmpl_id=3
Luddite
They went to jail – and THEN got given plum jobs when they came out. Where else in the world?
And, unfortunately, democracy only works with an educated population – otherwise it simply becomes mob rule.
@Lyndall
Get yourself set up on Skype. It’s free and it rocks. I call home a lot for nada.
@Richard P
I know you read the Economist. This week’s sums up a lot of what you’ve been saying. That Malema oke is so dangerous. In any normal society, he’d be laughed at. In SA he’s taken seriously. It terrifies me.
That said, I do think you need to deal with your fear. I worry about my parents a lot too. From reading your posts – and noting the sheer volume of them – I think you might be a bit obsessed. If you don’t take a break from it, it will eat you up.
I gather your mum can’t leave/doesn’t want to and that worries you. If that’s the case, please try to look for some positives – even if only for your own sanity.
I know how you feel. Be grateful that guys like Luddite are there and care so much. I reckon SA would be worse off without them, and next time you’re back, take your mum on a drive out to Clarence in the Free State away from the cites and feel African again. You know my feelings, but I’ll say it again: there’s a lot of bad stuff happening out there, but if you can’t cut ties, you can at least ease the pain. Really, do yourself a favour – it’s not all bad.
@ Jack,
To pick up on your first post.
I LOVE South Africa – I also LOVE Travelling – almost as much as I love my country. I’m always looking for a work permit/visa option somewhere, to go and have another adventure – always with the intention to come back. Wherever I am in the world I carry the flag high and I make sure that I am the best possible ambassador for S.A.I consider that my duty and my pleasure and it makes my travelling experiences so much better. I know for a fact I am not the only (ex) expat to have that approach.”
I quote from another post of mine.
SA hardly ever features (politically at least) in my conversations, even with my English wife, and I hardly ever volunteer my views on SA. Nothing irritates me more than the SAn whenwes you get over here.
However, I do feel very negative about what is happening in SA and, when on the rare occasion I am asked for my views by a friend, colleague or stranger, although I will not rant (I confine that to SAn fora like this, where I can get things off my chest), I do make it clear in a sentence or two that I am anything but optimistic about SA’s prospects.
I will never discourage anyone from visiting SA as a tourist (I will let folk know that sensible precautions will by and large avoid crime), but if anyone were to ask me about moving to SA or making a capital investment there, I would at the very least suggest that they might want to think very very carefully about it.
I certainly feel no obligation to put a positive spin on SA.
What does that make me?
“In the eyes of the world we, South Africa are considered much more to be an amazingly beautiful, diverse, fascinating, colourful, success story of a country – with crime problems (considering where we have come from – and where we are going to) rather than a crime-ridden, corrupt, collapsing disaster situation which is a perception promoted by both some expats abroad and some South Africans at home.”
I strongly dispute that. Read the links to the articles I have posted above. SA is no longer seen as a success story; its international reputation, as I stated above, is getting very smelly.
And FIFA has already announced Plan B for 2010 (the first time I have ever been aware of this happening with a World Cup). I hardly need say anything further on that score …
@ Leesie
“That said, I do think you need to deal with your fear. I worry about my parents a lot too. From reading your posts – and noting the sheer volume of them – I think you might be a bit obsessed. If you don’t take a break from it, it will eat you up.”
Actually, I’m not obsessed. I am very concerned and pessimistic though, and have used this thread to get things off my chest (this thread is only place on the internet I am posting on SA)
“I gather your mum can’t leave/doesn’t want to and that worries you. If that’s the case, please try to look for some positives – even if only for your own sanity.”
My mom is very negative about SA but really is not in a position to leave, so yes that does worry me. She is finding very few positives in SA at the moment. Also, previously positive friends in SA who I contacted to ask for their views, are about as negative as I am. So, no, SAGoodNews is not going to hack it for me. I have listed the heads of my concerns above and am awaiting hard cold facts why those should not be reason for pessimism.
“I know how you feel. Be grateful that guys like Luddite are there and care so much. I reckon SA would be worse off without them, and next time you’re back, take your mum on a drive out to Clarence in the Free State away from the cites and feel African again. You know my feelings, but I’ll say it again: there’s a lot of bad stuff happening out there, but if you can’t cut ties, you can at least ease the pain. Really, do yourself a favour – it’s not all bad.”
Frankly, I do not believe that someone so incapable of conducting a sensible debate on this issue, is a cause for gratitude. If Luddite is the best that SA has to offer, then that makes me not a scrap more optimistic.
“I reckon SA would be worse off without them, and next time you’re back, take your mum on a drive out to Clarence in the Free State away from the cites and feel African again. You know my feelings, but I’ll say it again: there’s a lot of bad stuff happening out there, but if you can’t cut ties, you can at least ease the pain. Really, do yourself a favour – it’s not all bad.”
I know full well that SA is not all bad and I am actually quite looking forward to visiting my wife next Easter. Yes, there is lovely scenery and SA remains a fantastic tourist destination, but not in my view a good long term prospect to live or invest.
Lyndall,
“And, unfortunately, democracy only works with an educated population – otherwise it simply becomes mob rule.”
I strongly disagree.
A country in which people are denied the vote on the basis of their educational qualifications is not a democracy.
In SA it is the leaders who must be blamed; not the voters.
@ Richard P:
“Apartheid SA was rotten with corruption. Read this:”
- Very informative link – thanks.
@ Richard P
RE: Democracy:
- it will take another 100 posts if we go down that road. What’s worth stating is that: There is no universally accepted definition of democracy and that there are several varieties of democracy. It is debatable whether any country is a true democracy. The governments we call democracies are democratic republics. (True democracy isn’t practical with a large number of citizens, especially if they are spread out). Have a look at the definition of “plutocracy” and see if you can identify any democracies which potentially match that description.
@Richard P:
“And what dishonesty would this be? Substantiate please.”
– It’s a general statement and is derived from your overall denial of the positive in South Africa.
@ Richard P:
“I strongly dispute that. Read the links to the articles I have posted above. SA is no longer seen as a success story; its international reputation, as I stated above, is getting very smelly.”
- I disagree – I have travelled to many countries and lived in several – that’s the way people see us – tourism to S.A. proves that too. You seem to take the media outlook as universal public opinion. (Nothing could be further from the truth.) You need to rely LESS on the media – this is the best advice I can give you.
@ Richard P:
“I will never discourage anyone from visiting SA as a tourist (I will let folk know that sensible precautions will by and large avoid crime), but if anyone were to ask me about moving to SA or making a capital investment there, I would at the very least suggest that they might want to think very very carefully about it. I certainly feel no obligation to put a positive spin on SA. What does that make me?”
- Fair play to you if you do indeed hold to that, but you have also used a lot of emotional and loaded language and rhetoric on this board and I’m wondering if you are not tempted sometimes in your verbal conversations, to break into one of those the “S.A. Doomsday” expression you have used (repeatedly) here – and this is a public board, remember.
@ Richard P:
“And FIFA has already announced Plan B for 2010 (the first time I have ever been aware of this happening with a World Cup). I hardly need say anything further on that score…”
- It’s standard FIFA procedure, mate! For heavens sake – stop LOOKING for the negative wherever you can see it “lurk”.
“- it will take another 100 posts if we go down that road. What’s worth stating is that: There is no universally accepted definition of democracy and that there are several varieties of democracy. It is debatable whether any country is a true democracy. The governments we call democracies are democratic republics. (True democracy isn’t practical with a large number of citizens, especially if they are spread out). Have a look at the definition of “plutocracy” and see if you can identify any democracies which potentially match that description.”
Another topic for another thread.
“- It’s a general statement and is derived from your overall denial of the positive in South Africa.”
I do not deny the positive in SA, but I do assert that the negative (in all key areas) has the upper hand.
“- I disagree – I have travelled to many countries and lived in several – that’s the way people see us – tourism to S.A. proves that too. You seem to take the media outlook as universal public opinion. (Nothing could be further from the truth.) You need to rely LESS on the media – this is the best advice I can give you.”
Of course, SA is viewed favourably as a tourist desination (and I have never heard a Brit who has visited it as a tourist speak negatively). And, yes, the rugby and cricket teams are by and large positively regarded. But beyond that SA is not, at least here in the UK, positively portrayed. Crime in SA is notorious, as is the SA government’s support of nasty regimes such as Zim and Burma (to the point where it has been branded a rogue democracy by the Washington Post) and Mbeki’s AIDS denialism (compounded by Manto). The Eksom debacle and the xenophobic attacks have further tarnished the SA brand. Almost all articles in the UK press (as my links above demonstrate) about the state of SA are negative.
And my views of SA are not simply informed by what I read in the UK and SA press (and you have not effectively gainsayed any of the links I have posted), but by what I am told by friends and family still living in SA.
“- Fair play to you if you do indeed hold to that, but you have also used a lot of emotional and loaded language and rhetoric on this board and I’m wondering if you are not tempted sometimes in your verbal conversations, to break into one of those the “S.A. Doomsday” expression you have used (repeatedly) here – and this is a public board, remember.”
So, it is my patriotic duty to be positive here also? No, my language in verbal conversations about the state of SA (on the rare occasions that they do happen) is more restrained, but the sentiments remain the same. What I have written here, albeit expressed in a polemical fashion, reflects by genuine views.
“- It’s standard FIFA procedure, mate! For heavens sake – stop LOOKING for the negative wherever you can see it “lurk”.”
If it is standard FIFA procedure, I certainly do not recall it being given such publicty before. I sense FIFA planning its exit strategy. I think it’s a case of watch this space.
And you still have not provided me with anything concrete to satisfy me that my pessimism is overinflated and misplaced.
RE: Richard P
Roget’s II – The New Thesaurus
Main Entry: Pessimist
Part of Speech: Noun
Definition: A prophet of misfortune or disaster.
Synonyms: Cassandra, doomsayer, worrywart
http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/pessimist
RE: Richard P (2)
Pes·si·mist
- Noun
1. A tendency to stress the negative or unfavourable or to take the gloomiest possible view:
2. A person who habitually sees or anticipates the worst or is disposed to be gloomy.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pessimist
@ Jack
These are two black SAns, living in SA, quoted in the Scotsman article to which I posted a link above.
“I am compelled to utter something I never in my wildest imagination thought I would say,” said Mondli Makhanya, editor of the Sunday Times, South Africa’s best-selling quality weekend newspaper. “I am afraid of the (ruling] African National Congress. Afraid of what it could do to our republic. One has to say that we are rolling down a very rocky slope.”
AND
In one of many damning judgments on the fading Mbeki era, the president of the South African Institute of Race Relations, Professor Sipho Seepe, said his ten years in power will be remembered “for the (electricity] blackouts, Aids denialism, abuse of power, nondelivery (of essential services], corruption, erosion of the rule of law, the abuse of the state South African Broadcasting Corporation, growing inequalities, cronyism, the (shady] arms deal and political arrogance. (Under Mr Mbeki] we lost the vision of a democratic and non-racial society.”
Goddamit, I am a LIBERAL. I want SA to succeed. I want it to be what I believed it would be in 1994. Yet, Mbeki has done, and Zuma is doing and will do, irreperable damage to the country. This is objective FACT.
I a sense, I wish I had your faith and optimism, but I think it is grounded in an ability to see the best in everything, rather than an objective appraisal of the big picture.
Richard P
If you want to argue with history, do so. Rather like King Canute telling the waves to retreat!
This question does not interest me enough to go into details – because that option has disappeared, so it achieves no solution.
@ Jack
I may be a pessimist but my pessimism is solidly grounded in realism. Unlike your optimism.
Jared
Interesting article.
A day doesn’t go by here in Sydney where I do not read about / hear about another South African involved in the “top tier” of academic/artistic/business and sporting life here.
Generalisations are pretty meaningless but over time most South Africans here develop a genuine love for Australia but at the same time feel very connected with South Africa.
Many migrants move to enjoy the adventure of living in a new place – but most really leave as an exercise in self preservation.
I think it is silly to polarise the “stayers” and the “leavers” – we are all people and all Africans – let us respect each others’ choices.
We all have a lot to offer each other.
Kevin
Damn, I can’t read all the comments as there are too many, so I apologise if this has already been said, but defensive Craig who commented first, Jared was talking about people who have actually left, not kids going overseas to travel around Europe or work as waiters. You may not know this yet, but while you have been overseas a lot of people have decided to leave South Africa for good, and have left. We knew it was for good because they said “goodbye, we are going for good”, and then packed up their entire lives and left.
Jared, good article. I’m going to send it to my pessimist friends.