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	<title>Comments on: The excesses of capitalism</title>
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		<title>By: Bert</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/bertolivier/2008/07/01/the-excesses-of-capitalism/comment-page-1/#comment-44265</link>
		<dc:creator>Bert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 18:55:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/bertolivier/2008/07/01/the-excesses-of-capitalism/#comment-44265</guid>
		<description>Thanks for that, Signing off - you&#039;re absolutely right about the ever-present danger of certain commentators &#039;hijacking&#039; one&#039;s writing! And why should one allow them to?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for that, Signing off &#8211; you&#8217;re absolutely right about the ever-present danger of certain commentators &#8216;hijacking&#8217; one&#8217;s writing! And why should one allow them to?</p>
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		<title>By: Signing off</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/bertolivier/2008/07/01/the-excesses-of-capitalism/comment-page-1/#comment-44064</link>
		<dc:creator>Signing off</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 17:53:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/bertolivier/2008/07/01/the-excesses-of-capitalism/#comment-44064</guid>
		<description>I really enjoyed the level of discussion before Jon hijacked Bert&#039;s efforts and sent him in a direction where no intellectual analysis is possible, and where the law of the jungle prevails. No new insights in the last two thought leaders. Just shouting, and repeating the same old low-level personal opinions ad infinitum ...... A pity that another promising blog(in this case lead by a brilliant mind)has eventually also gone down the tube.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really enjoyed the level of discussion before Jon hijacked Bert&#8217;s efforts and sent him in a direction where no intellectual analysis is possible, and where the law of the jungle prevails. No new insights in the last two thought leaders. Just shouting, and repeating the same old low-level personal opinions ad infinitum &#8230;&#8230; A pity that another promising blog(in this case lead by a brilliant mind)has eventually also gone down the tube.</p>
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		<title>By: Oldfox</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/bertolivier/2008/07/01/the-excesses-of-capitalism/comment-page-1/#comment-43429</link>
		<dc:creator>Oldfox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 22:34:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/bertolivier/2008/07/01/the-excesses-of-capitalism/#comment-43429</guid>
		<description>Bert,

For a brief article that article lists arguments against capitalism, see 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_capitalism
Quite a balanced article, as it gives views of proponents of capitalism as well.

Big business benefits from war (as do politicians from kickbacks from the armaments industry!), and many would argue that capitalism produces incentives for fighting wars. The following new book is quite interesting. 
The Three Trillion-Dollar War By Joseph Stiglitz and Linda Bilmes.
Actually, this is a conservative calculation. Figuring in macroeconomic costs and interest-the war has been funded with much borrowed money-the cost rises to $4.5 trillion; add Afghanistan, and the bill tops $7 trillion.
Also, Stiglitz and Bilmes ascribe to the war only $5-$10 in the oil price increase from $25 per barrel when the Iraq war started in 2003, to the $100 per barrel when the book was published.

At the following website one can pose questions, which get answewered by experts, including  Stiglitz and Bilmes.
www.mcclatchydc.com/qna/forum/three_trillion_dollar_war/index.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bert,</p>
<p>For a brief article that article lists arguments against capitalism, see<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_capitalism" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_capitalism</a><br />
Quite a balanced article, as it gives views of proponents of capitalism as well.</p>
<p>Big business benefits from war (as do politicians from kickbacks from the armaments industry!), and many would argue that capitalism produces incentives for fighting wars. The following new book is quite interesting.<br />
The Three Trillion-Dollar War By Joseph Stiglitz and Linda Bilmes.<br />
Actually, this is a conservative calculation. Figuring in macroeconomic costs and interest-the war has been funded with much borrowed money-the cost rises to $4.5 trillion; add Afghanistan, and the bill tops $7 trillion.<br />
Also, Stiglitz and Bilmes ascribe to the war only $5-$10 in the oil price increase from $25 per barrel when the Iraq war started in 2003, to the $100 per barrel when the book was published.</p>
<p>At the following website one can pose questions, which get answewered by experts, including  Stiglitz and Bilmes.<br />
<a href="http://www.mcclatchydc.com/qna/forum/three_trillion_dollar_war/index.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.mcclatchydc.com/qna/forum/three_trillion_dollar_war/index.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Oldfox</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/bertolivier/2008/07/01/the-excesses-of-capitalism/comment-page-1/#comment-43425</link>
		<dc:creator>Oldfox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 22:11:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/bertolivier/2008/07/01/the-excesses-of-capitalism/#comment-43425</guid>
		<description>Sarfeffrikin

Nobel price winning economist Joseph Stiglitz devotes several pages to the entire question of CEO pay packages in his book&quot; The Roaring Nineties&quot;.
(actually, the subtitle of the Penguin edition of this book is: &quot;Why we&#039;re paying the price of the greediest decade in History&quot;).
Stiglitz speaks very strongly about this - he uses the word &quot;theft&quot; to describe how corp. executives deprive shareholders of what is rightfully theirs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sarfeffrikin</p>
<p>Nobel price winning economist Joseph Stiglitz devotes several pages to the entire question of CEO pay packages in his book&#8221; The Roaring Nineties&#8221;.<br />
(actually, the subtitle of the Penguin edition of this book is: &#8220;Why we&#8217;re paying the price of the greediest decade in History&#8221;).<br />
Stiglitz speaks very strongly about this &#8211; he uses the word &#8220;theft&#8221; to describe how corp. executives deprive shareholders of what is rightfully theirs.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarfeffrikin</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/bertolivier/2008/07/01/the-excesses-of-capitalism/comment-page-1/#comment-43386</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarfeffrikin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 16:12:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/bertolivier/2008/07/01/the-excesses-of-capitalism/#comment-43386</guid>
		<description>Gav,

Socialism is a philosophy concerned with the collective wellbeing (of individuals) while Communism is a system of communal living gone wrong; using Socialist principles selectively. 

In Animal Farm the animals started out with a promising idea until the pigs moved into the house and started to make up other rules like &quot;two legs good; four legs bad!). They started behaving like company board members and wrote their own cheques -no difference there! Smells like Capitalism!

It&#039;s like saying we must ban money because people are greedy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gav,</p>
<p>Socialism is a philosophy concerned with the collective wellbeing (of individuals) while Communism is a system of communal living gone wrong; using Socialist principles selectively. </p>
<p>In Animal Farm the animals started out with a promising idea until the pigs moved into the house and started to make up other rules like &#8220;two legs good; four legs bad!). They started behaving like company board members and wrote their own cheques -no difference there! Smells like Capitalism!</p>
<p>It&#8217;s like saying we must ban money because people are greedy.</p>
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		<title>By: gavin rome</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/bertolivier/2008/07/01/the-excesses-of-capitalism/comment-page-1/#comment-43327</link>
		<dc:creator>gavin rome</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 11:01:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/bertolivier/2008/07/01/the-excesses-of-capitalism/#comment-43327</guid>
		<description>Bert, the don&#039;t equate socialism with communism argument is ,with respect, fallacious. Just imagine telling Marx, Lenin and the other socialist patriarchs &quot;er, sorry chaps but er ahem actually you&#039;ve made the transition to communism and you may no longer call yourself “socialists/the socialist republic of ·” as you are now just a bunch of uncaring non-socialist commies&quot;.  

In essence communism and socialism are intertwined and at the very least communism is simply a more fundamentalist/extreme version of socialism. To contend that the two are entirely differing ideologies is simply ahistorical.  

Equally fallacious is the argument that many progressive states have socialist elements within them (for eg Canada’s universal health care system). Actually such states are at their core capitalist,  whilst incorporating a degree of regulation (but not statist control) of certain non-core components of the economy. 

The examples that have been proffered here of so called “socialist successes” are thus nothing more than a recognition that capitalist societies are not necessarily governed by a greed is good doctrine. 

On the other hand it cannot be reasonably disputed that every attempt at socialist control of the core aspects of an economy (mining, agriculture, telecommunications, major industries, etc) has had obscene and inhumane consequences (even if initially unintended).  

The record of what has been achieved by the two competing ideologies is so obvious that it utterly corroborates Winston c’s apocryphal remark that, “someone under 20 who is not a socialist has no heart and someone over 30 who is still a socialist, has no brain …


Finally Bert, Bakan’s analysis in the end amounts to nothing more than a tendentious “proof” for his   “lots of regulation good, free enterprise bad!”  argument.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bert, the don&#8217;t equate socialism with communism argument is ,with respect, fallacious. Just imagine telling Marx, Lenin and the other socialist patriarchs &#8220;er, sorry chaps but er ahem actually you&#8217;ve made the transition to communism and you may no longer call yourself “socialists/the socialist republic of ·” as you are now just a bunch of uncaring non-socialist commies&#8221;.  </p>
<p>In essence communism and socialism are intertwined and at the very least communism is simply a more fundamentalist/extreme version of socialism. To contend that the two are entirely differing ideologies is simply ahistorical.  </p>
<p>Equally fallacious is the argument that many progressive states have socialist elements within them (for eg Canada’s universal health care system). Actually such states are at their core capitalist,  whilst incorporating a degree of regulation (but not statist control) of certain non-core components of the economy. </p>
<p>The examples that have been proffered here of so called “socialist successes” are thus nothing more than a recognition that capitalist societies are not necessarily governed by a greed is good doctrine. </p>
<p>On the other hand it cannot be reasonably disputed that every attempt at socialist control of the core aspects of an economy (mining, agriculture, telecommunications, major industries, etc) has had obscene and inhumane consequences (even if initially unintended).  </p>
<p>The record of what has been achieved by the two competing ideologies is so obvious that it utterly corroborates Winston c’s apocryphal remark that, “someone under 20 who is not a socialist has no heart and someone over 30 who is still a socialist, has no brain …</p>
<p>Finally Bert, Bakan’s analysis in the end amounts to nothing more than a tendentious “proof” for his   “lots of regulation good, free enterprise bad!”  argument.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarfeffrikin</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/bertolivier/2008/07/01/the-excesses-of-capitalism/comment-page-1/#comment-43311</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarfeffrikin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 09:46:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/bertolivier/2008/07/01/the-excesses-of-capitalism/#comment-43311</guid>
		<description>&quot;The current collapse of the US banking system shows what happens in a capitalist system when you let idiots who are only interested in their own bonuses run your economy; a bit like politicians then.&quot;

I couldn&#039;t agree with you more. A pure example of selfish short term thinking and no regard for the company or the economy&#039;s longe term sustainability. What gets my goat is how these board members are able to decide on their own remuneration packages and bonusses. A CEO who stuffs up completely awards himself a $100 million bonus as a good-bye present - the subject of shareholder unhappiness a while ago. A year ago the arrogant outgoing CEO of Merrill Lynch was a visionary; he turned a stuffy company around by replacing the conservative decision makers with fresh blood who jumped on the easy money bandwagon - make money, no questions asked. Guess what...he also left the ruined company with a fat wad of cash!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The current collapse of the US banking system shows what happens in a capitalist system when you let idiots who are only interested in their own bonuses run your economy; a bit like politicians then.&#8221;</p>
<p>I couldn&#8217;t agree with you more. A pure example of selfish short term thinking and no regard for the company or the economy&#8217;s longe term sustainability. What gets my goat is how these board members are able to decide on their own remuneration packages and bonusses. A CEO who stuffs up completely awards himself a $100 million bonus as a good-bye present &#8211; the subject of shareholder unhappiness a while ago. A year ago the arrogant outgoing CEO of Merrill Lynch was a visionary; he turned a stuffy company around by replacing the conservative decision makers with fresh blood who jumped on the easy money bandwagon &#8211; make money, no questions asked. Guess what&#8230;he also left the ruined company with a fat wad of cash!</p>
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		<title>By: Kit</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/bertolivier/2008/07/01/the-excesses-of-capitalism/comment-page-1/#comment-43211</link>
		<dc:creator>Kit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 09:59:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/bertolivier/2008/07/01/the-excesses-of-capitalism/#comment-43211</guid>
		<description>The day that we begin acceptance of the shades of grey that are the universe is when we can begin to discuss anything profitably.

What is wrong with capitalism is exactly what is wrong with communism - human nature.  We are selfish, grasping people, by and large, easily corruptable into wishing for more; ambitious to grow our own empires.  Amongst other things but essentially that&#039;s it.  That&#039;s why everything we do must be a compromise; must suit more than one party and we must remember that as human beings we have these idiosyncracies - plan for them!

The other thing that people conveniently forget is that political systems viewed as capitalist (such as the US) are really nothing of the sort either.  In a purely capitalist system people would make their own money for their own selves and families and anyone who couldn&#039;t would literally just die in the street.  Any form of redistribution &#039;skews&#039; the market so goodbye to Medicaid, subsidised education and school meals.  The failed communist states of Eastern Europe really were merely state capitalists as well - more of one and less of the other but a bit of both.

Any purist state is doomed to failure sadly because of human nature.  The reason North Korea is in the mire might be less that it&#039;s communist and more that it&#039;s so purist - communism offers no incentive for people to strive, so they don&#039;t unless they&#039;re hit very hard with a big stick which isn&#039;t really very communist either because then the person with the stick is the boss.  Very capitalist idea, that.

The current collapse of the US banking system shows what happens in a capitalist system when you let idiots who are only interested in their own bonuses run your economy; a bit like politicians then.

And I disagree with the whole &#039;collapse caused by anti-redlining&#039; nonsense.  The banks were encouraged to lend to people they didn&#039;t want to, absolutely.  However, since when have corporations done more than a minimum when it comes to socially responsible things?

They lent out money because for some of these loans they received subsidies to do so (ie. made money) and could then siphon off some of the loans to unsuspecting investors in special vehicles built to conceal them (ie. made money) and for those that stayed good, they had a massive jump in repayments as part of the 2/28 deal (ie. made money) and if they didn&#039;t, they&#039;d end up with a few properties that they could sell off - okay, that&#039;s where the misjudgement maybe came in, but never mind.  They made some money before that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The day that we begin acceptance of the shades of grey that are the universe is when we can begin to discuss anything profitably.</p>
<p>What is wrong with capitalism is exactly what is wrong with communism &#8211; human nature.  We are selfish, grasping people, by and large, easily corruptable into wishing for more; ambitious to grow our own empires.  Amongst other things but essentially that&#8217;s it.  That&#8217;s why everything we do must be a compromise; must suit more than one party and we must remember that as human beings we have these idiosyncracies &#8211; plan for them!</p>
<p>The other thing that people conveniently forget is that political systems viewed as capitalist (such as the US) are really nothing of the sort either.  In a purely capitalist system people would make their own money for their own selves and families and anyone who couldn&#8217;t would literally just die in the street.  Any form of redistribution &#8216;skews&#8217; the market so goodbye to Medicaid, subsidised education and school meals.  The failed communist states of Eastern Europe really were merely state capitalists as well &#8211; more of one and less of the other but a bit of both.</p>
<p>Any purist state is doomed to failure sadly because of human nature.  The reason North Korea is in the mire might be less that it&#8217;s communist and more that it&#8217;s so purist &#8211; communism offers no incentive for people to strive, so they don&#8217;t unless they&#8217;re hit very hard with a big stick which isn&#8217;t really very communist either because then the person with the stick is the boss.  Very capitalist idea, that.</p>
<p>The current collapse of the US banking system shows what happens in a capitalist system when you let idiots who are only interested in their own bonuses run your economy; a bit like politicians then.</p>
<p>And I disagree with the whole &#8216;collapse caused by anti-redlining&#8217; nonsense.  The banks were encouraged to lend to people they didn&#8217;t want to, absolutely.  However, since when have corporations done more than a minimum when it comes to socially responsible things?</p>
<p>They lent out money because for some of these loans they received subsidies to do so (ie. made money) and could then siphon off some of the loans to unsuspecting investors in special vehicles built to conceal them (ie. made money) and for those that stayed good, they had a massive jump in repayments as part of the 2/28 deal (ie. made money) and if they didn&#8217;t, they&#8217;d end up with a few properties that they could sell off &#8211; okay, that&#8217;s where the misjudgement maybe came in, but never mind.  They made some money before that.</p>
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		<title>By: Bert</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/bertolivier/2008/07/01/the-excesses-of-capitalism/comment-page-1/#comment-43178</link>
		<dc:creator>Bert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 19:24:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/bertolivier/2008/07/01/the-excesses-of-capitalism/#comment-43178</guid>
		<description>I gather that some little spike has flattered me with the title of &#039;the anti-capitalist clown&#039;...in more than one respect it is a compliment. In days of yore, the clown, in the related guise of the jester at the King&#039;s court, was the one who was allowed to speak the truth - so thank you, little spike. Today the master&#039;s discourse is that of the capitalist, and one of the reasons that most people don&#039;t seem to realize its claim to unadulterated, unscrupulous mastery, is because it disguises itself so well as the true fighter for democracy, etc. In truth, it is only for the &#039;free market&#039; that it really fights; the political meaning of democracy escapes most capitalists...as one of the titans of French thought (Jacques Lacan) has put it, it (capitalism) has adopted the discourse of the &#039;hysteric&#039; - the one who pretends to be the severest critic of the master, for example of the reasons for environmental fallout of capitalist oil production in Third World countries. But make no mistake - the bottom line remains the same: profit at ALL costs, including thousands of dead in Iraq, for the sake of establishing the free market there.  (Read Naomi Klein&#039;s account, in The Shock Doctrine, of the delight on the part of private security firms, that they encountered a situation well-suited for their profit-oriented operation in Iraq.) If, in the guise of the clown/jester, I can bring this truth to light, little spike, I am gratified.
Sarfeffriken, The Artikl and others who have supported my argument and amplified it, thanks for your contributions - they make a lot of sense. I am very glad that there are at least some people around who  are not blind to what I have termed the &#039;excesses of capitalism&#039;. I concur on what you say about France, Sarfeffriken - Naomi Klein says much the same thing in The Shock Doctrine, namely that such a mix is the best option we have. What I find really disturbing, however, is the fact that the damage done to our natural environment by unbridled economic &#039;growth&#039; (a euphemism for rapacious capitalist development, of course: go and see what they are doing to the once-beautiful countryside around Broederstroom) has perhaps reached the point where it is irreparable. If the information provided by Khadija Sharife on the Brazilian rain forest is correct, that 30% deforestation is the &#039;tipping point&#039; (for un[self]sustainability), and at present it stands at 22% (if I remember correctly), it does not augur well for the future. Don&#039;t these fools realize that it took millions of years for the planet to produce a viable ecosphere, and that forests are essential for maintaining this, otherwise the life of all living beings on the planet is threatened? But then - some people (and they know who they are) don&#039;t seem to care much for life...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I gather that some little spike has flattered me with the title of &#8216;the anti-capitalist clown&#8217;&#8230;in more than one respect it is a compliment. In days of yore, the clown, in the related guise of the jester at the King&#8217;s court, was the one who was allowed to speak the truth &#8211; so thank you, little spike. Today the master&#8217;s discourse is that of the capitalist, and one of the reasons that most people don&#8217;t seem to realize its claim to unadulterated, unscrupulous mastery, is because it disguises itself so well as the true fighter for democracy, etc. In truth, it is only for the &#8216;free market&#8217; that it really fights; the political meaning of democracy escapes most capitalists&#8230;as one of the titans of French thought (Jacques Lacan) has put it, it (capitalism) has adopted the discourse of the &#8216;hysteric&#8217; &#8211; the one who pretends to be the severest critic of the master, for example of the reasons for environmental fallout of capitalist oil production in Third World countries. But make no mistake &#8211; the bottom line remains the same: profit at ALL costs, including thousands of dead in Iraq, for the sake of establishing the free market there.  (Read Naomi Klein&#8217;s account, in The Shock Doctrine, of the delight on the part of private security firms, that they encountered a situation well-suited for their profit-oriented operation in Iraq.) If, in the guise of the clown/jester, I can bring this truth to light, little spike, I am gratified.<br />
Sarfeffriken, The Artikl and others who have supported my argument and amplified it, thanks for your contributions &#8211; they make a lot of sense. I am very glad that there are at least some people around who  are not blind to what I have termed the &#8216;excesses of capitalism&#8217;. I concur on what you say about France, Sarfeffriken &#8211; Naomi Klein says much the same thing in The Shock Doctrine, namely that such a mix is the best option we have. What I find really disturbing, however, is the fact that the damage done to our natural environment by unbridled economic &#8216;growth&#8217; (a euphemism for rapacious capitalist development, of course: go and see what they are doing to the once-beautiful countryside around Broederstroom) has perhaps reached the point where it is irreparable. If the information provided by Khadija Sharife on the Brazilian rain forest is correct, that 30% deforestation is the &#8216;tipping point&#8217; (for un[self]sustainability), and at present it stands at 22% (if I remember correctly), it does not augur well for the future. Don&#8217;t these fools realize that it took millions of years for the planet to produce a viable ecosphere, and that forests are essential for maintaining this, otherwise the life of all living beings on the planet is threatened? But then &#8211; some people (and they know who they are) don&#8217;t seem to care much for life&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Jon</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/bertolivier/2008/07/01/the-excesses-of-capitalism/comment-page-1/#comment-43173</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 18:44:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/bertolivier/2008/07/01/the-excesses-of-capitalism/#comment-43173</guid>
		<description>If you think Bhopal was bad, you obviously hadn&#039;t seen the many hundreds of unfiltered, untreated, smoke-belching state-owned factory chimneys behind what was once the Iron Curtain at a time when strictly-enforced clean-air regulations in the capitalist West kept their air much cleaner.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you think Bhopal was bad, you obviously hadn&#8217;t seen the many hundreds of unfiltered, untreated, smoke-belching state-owned factory chimneys behind what was once the Iron Curtain at a time when strictly-enforced clean-air regulations in the capitalist West kept their air much cleaner.</p>
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