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	<title>Comments on: Yelling &#8216;fuck off&#8217; for feminism</title>
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	<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/alexmatthews/2008/12/03/yelling-%e2%80%9cfuck-off%e2%80%9d-for-feminism/</link>
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		<title>By: Sukena</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/alexmatthews/2008/12/03/yelling-%e2%80%9cfuck-off%e2%80%9d-for-feminism/comment-page-1/#comment-64954</link>
		<dc:creator>Sukena</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Dec 2008 16:49:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>i did enjoy reading your article Alex, and i&#039;m glad you stuck up for your friend.Christene, i feel you were abit too harsh with your comment, if a man sticks up for a lady against another man, if a women sticks up for another women, the point is, atleast people were told! you, as a woman should atleast be greatful for that.i was born and lived in the u.k all my life, i believe i am a feminist, and when a man sticks up for a woman against another man, nothing makes me happier, as i believe there are very few men like that out there. coming to south africa, i am in shock, where are the feminists? i totally agree with you Alex, that women are still treated as inferior, and objects of sex in this country. i have spent 8yrs in this country also, but it was never this bad as far as i can remember.i lost count of how many massive billboards were advertising strip joints, women holding their breasts, then i came across a certain &#039;juice company&#039; that had a woman carrying two melons as her breasts! i&#039;m worried by the time i have kids, my child is going to point at a woman and say &#039;look mum, sex&#039;!i&#039;m concerned for the uneducated and the children, i can see how in this country, woman are primarily seen as sex objects, or baby-making machines.as a feminist, i want equality, i do not want to suppress men as a means to get back at them (Andrew).i am very keen to find out what is out there, as i&#039;m not one of those people who just sits back and says &#039;well, there&#039;s nothing you can do about it, you can&#039;t change the world&#039; i absolutely dispise that type of mentality, and i&#039;m glad i stand up and say, atleast i will try to!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i did enjoy reading your article Alex, and i&#8217;m glad you stuck up for your friend.Christene, i feel you were abit too harsh with your comment, if a man sticks up for a lady against another man, if a women sticks up for another women, the point is, atleast people were told! you, as a woman should atleast be greatful for that.i was born and lived in the u.k all my life, i believe i am a feminist, and when a man sticks up for a woman against another man, nothing makes me happier, as i believe there are very few men like that out there. coming to south africa, i am in shock, where are the feminists? i totally agree with you Alex, that women are still treated as inferior, and objects of sex in this country. i have spent 8yrs in this country also, but it was never this bad as far as i can remember.i lost count of how many massive billboards were advertising strip joints, women holding their breasts, then i came across a certain &#8216;juice company&#8217; that had a woman carrying two melons as her breasts! i&#8217;m worried by the time i have kids, my child is going to point at a woman and say &#8216;look mum, sex&#8217;!i&#8217;m concerned for the uneducated and the children, i can see how in this country, woman are primarily seen as sex objects, or baby-making machines.as a feminist, i want equality, i do not want to suppress men as a means to get back at them (Andrew).i am very keen to find out what is out there, as i&#8217;m not one of those people who just sits back and says &#8216;well, there&#8217;s nothing you can do about it, you can&#8217;t change the world&#8217; i absolutely dispise that type of mentality, and i&#8217;m glad i stand up and say, atleast i will try to!</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Slaughter</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/alexmatthews/2008/12/03/yelling-%e2%80%9cfuck-off%e2%80%9d-for-feminism/comment-page-1/#comment-63558</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Slaughter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 06:48:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/alexmatthews/2008/12/03/yelling-%e2%80%9cfuck-off%e2%80%9d-for-feminism/#comment-63558</guid>
		<description>also : &#039;Who Stole Feminism?: How Women Have Betrayed Women&#039;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>also : &#8216;Who Stole Feminism?: How Women Have Betrayed Women&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Slaughter</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/alexmatthews/2008/12/03/yelling-%e2%80%9cfuck-off%e2%80%9d-for-feminism/comment-page-1/#comment-63556</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Slaughter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 06:43:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/alexmatthews/2008/12/03/yelling-%e2%80%9cfuck-off%e2%80%9d-for-feminism/#comment-63556</guid>
		<description>Interesting book to read to throw a spanner in the works: &#039;The War Against Boys: How Misguided Feminism Is Harming Our Young Men&#039;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting book to read to throw a spanner in the works: &#8216;The War Against Boys: How Misguided Feminism Is Harming Our Young Men&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: Siobhan</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/alexmatthews/2008/12/03/yelling-%e2%80%9cfuck-off%e2%80%9d-for-feminism/comment-page-1/#comment-63486</link>
		<dc:creator>Siobhan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Dec 2008 12:07:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Sorry, Andrew, I meant ALEX in my comment above!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, Andrew, I meant ALEX in my comment above!</p>
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		<title>By: Siobhan</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/alexmatthews/2008/12/03/yelling-%e2%80%9cfuck-off%e2%80%9d-for-feminism/comment-page-1/#comment-63400</link>
		<dc:creator>Siobhan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 10:31:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>My comment above was rather oblique and I would like to add something to it.

1.  Andrew&#039;s gesture was done in the spirit of friendship and so I assume he would do the same for a gay male friend who was being harassed on  the street.

2. When I was a young woman I was subjected to this sort of routine sexist abuse. On the street. In the Boardroom. In the hallways of the  university in which I taught (male students passing just audible comments, etc.).  In faculty meetings where a woman&#039;s contributions to a discussion were ignored and then repeated by a male &#039;colleague&#039; five minutes later--at which time the wisdom of the comment would get recognition.  At the local telkom where my payment of phone bills for five years did not  qualify me for a &#039;waiver of fees&#039; for a new phone but men who had never had a phone before did not have to pay a fee at all! (I won that battle in the end!)     At the bank where it was assumed that I would share an account with my husband and my insistence on having my own account marked me out as a &#039;difficult woman&#039;.  And a lifetime of such treatment that would take volumes to itemise.

Back then, the insults on the street were an annoyance not an issue. But even so I did not retaliate with a &#039;f--- you&#039; or an &#039;up yours, mate&#039; for fear of being thought rude.  These troglodytes could insult women with impunity but I would be considered &#039;rude&#039; if I retaliated...hmmm. 

Women were supposed to be &#039;above all that&#039;.  So I kept walking and never confronted the bastards,

I guess if a man had offered a &#039;f---- you&#039; on my behalf I would have been grateful.  But I would also have been embarassed and a little afraid that he might provoke the jackasses into responding  with physical aggression.  So, I guess that ignoring them would still be my response. But it is refreshing that Andrew felt strongly enough about the insult to his friend to shout back at the offenders. Good for you, Andrew.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My comment above was rather oblique and I would like to add something to it.</p>
<p>1.  Andrew&#8217;s gesture was done in the spirit of friendship and so I assume he would do the same for a gay male friend who was being harassed on  the street.</p>
<p>2. When I was a young woman I was subjected to this sort of routine sexist abuse. On the street. In the Boardroom. In the hallways of the  university in which I taught (male students passing just audible comments, etc.).  In faculty meetings where a woman&#8217;s contributions to a discussion were ignored and then repeated by a male &#8216;colleague&#8217; five minutes later&#8211;at which time the wisdom of the comment would get recognition.  At the local telkom where my payment of phone bills for five years did not  qualify me for a &#8216;waiver of fees&#8217; for a new phone but men who had never had a phone before did not have to pay a fee at all! (I won that battle in the end!)     At the bank where it was assumed that I would share an account with my husband and my insistence on having my own account marked me out as a &#8216;difficult woman&#8217;.  And a lifetime of such treatment that would take volumes to itemise.</p>
<p>Back then, the insults on the street were an annoyance not an issue. But even so I did not retaliate with a &#8216;f&#8212; you&#8217; or an &#8216;up yours, mate&#8217; for fear of being thought rude.  These troglodytes could insult women with impunity but I would be considered &#8216;rude&#8217; if I retaliated&#8230;hmmm. </p>
<p>Women were supposed to be &#8216;above all that&#8217;.  So I kept walking and never confronted the bastards,</p>
<p>I guess if a man had offered a &#8216;f&#8212;- you&#8217; on my behalf I would have been grateful.  But I would also have been embarassed and a little afraid that he might provoke the jackasses into responding  with physical aggression.  So, I guess that ignoring them would still be my response. But it is refreshing that Andrew felt strongly enough about the insult to his friend to shout back at the offenders. Good for you, Andrew.</p>
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		<title>By: christine</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/alexmatthews/2008/12/03/yelling-%e2%80%9cfuck-off%e2%80%9d-for-feminism/comment-page-1/#comment-63392</link>
		<dc:creator>christine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 09:47:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Alex, while I applaud your efforts at addressing a very serious issue, I must point out the irony of your actions - you say women are seen as subordinate and inferior, yet you (probably subconsciously) assumed your friend could not stand up for herself, which in itself is an act of making her inferior. Why did you have to step up and be the defender and protector, thereby making her a poor victim who cannot stand up for herself? It is incredibly patronising and the opposite side of the same coin. Why could your friend not yell &#039;fuck off&#039; to them herself? Why is she not writing this article? Why are you fighting her battles? That&#039;s not feminism.  
I cannot believe it is because you think women can&#039;t do it themselves, because you seem like a decent guy who only wants to do the right thing, but I do think some introspection is needed re: your own attitudes towards women. We are not helpless saps in need of male &quot;protection&quot;. Only when we stand up for ourselves can the road to equality be built. Equal rights do not mean that all the men should stop treating women wrongly, as that leaves the power squarely in the men&#039;s hands.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alex, while I applaud your efforts at addressing a very serious issue, I must point out the irony of your actions &#8211; you say women are seen as subordinate and inferior, yet you (probably subconsciously) assumed your friend could not stand up for herself, which in itself is an act of making her inferior. Why did you have to step up and be the defender and protector, thereby making her a poor victim who cannot stand up for herself? It is incredibly patronising and the opposite side of the same coin. Why could your friend not yell &#8216;fuck off&#8217; to them herself? Why is she not writing this article? Why are you fighting her battles? That&#8217;s not feminism.<br />
I cannot believe it is because you think women can&#8217;t do it themselves, because you seem like a decent guy who only wants to do the right thing, but I do think some introspection is needed re: your own attitudes towards women. We are not helpless saps in need of male &#8220;protection&#8221;. Only when we stand up for ourselves can the road to equality be built. Equal rights do not mean that all the men should stop treating women wrongly, as that leaves the power squarely in the men&#8217;s hands.</p>
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		<title>By: Garg Unzola</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/alexmatthews/2008/12/03/yelling-%e2%80%9cfuck-off%e2%80%9d-for-feminism/comment-page-1/#comment-63386</link>
		<dc:creator>Garg Unzola</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 08:54:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/alexmatthews/2008/12/03/yelling-%e2%80%9cfuck-off%e2%80%9d-for-feminism/#comment-63386</guid>
		<description>Equal rights is a silly notion as I will never in my life need maternity leave.

This does not deter from the fact that women need to be treated neutrally. Give respect to those who deserve respect, and treat all others with the same neutrality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Equal rights is a silly notion as I will never in my life need maternity leave.</p>
<p>This does not deter from the fact that women need to be treated neutrally. Give respect to those who deserve respect, and treat all others with the same neutrality.</p>
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		<title>By: Rodney of Sydney</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/alexmatthews/2008/12/03/yelling-%e2%80%9cfuck-off%e2%80%9d-for-feminism/comment-page-1/#comment-63384</link>
		<dc:creator>Rodney of Sydney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 08:52:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>What we need is more polygamy but where woman can walk out anytime with a share of the loot. Then powerful men will have many woman whom they would strive to keep keep. Supply and demand will then raise the status of the remaining woman who will be cherished.

Another option is to send only woman to war. That will decrease supply and give them the weapons...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What we need is more polygamy but where woman can walk out anytime with a share of the loot. Then powerful men will have many woman whom they would strive to keep keep. Supply and demand will then raise the status of the remaining woman who will be cherished.</p>
<p>Another option is to send only woman to war. That will decrease supply and give them the weapons&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: sally</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/alexmatthews/2008/12/03/yelling-%e2%80%9cfuck-off%e2%80%9d-for-feminism/comment-page-1/#comment-63368</link>
		<dc:creator>sally</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 07:27:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Andrew: I agree, men should get better paternity leave... that said, we live in a context in which men do not take full and equal responsibility for their children. So, while I agree men should get paternity leave, I&#039;m not sure this will address the inequality - for that, we need to recognise the problem and make changes in the way men and women think about child care... which is what feminists attempt to do. Yes, men and women&#039;s concerns &quot;need to be looked at&quot; but we cant ignore the fact that in this equation, women are in the minus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew: I agree, men should get better paternity leave&#8230; that said, we live in a context in which men do not take full and equal responsibility for their children. So, while I agree men should get paternity leave, I&#8217;m not sure this will address the inequality &#8211; for that, we need to recognise the problem and make changes in the way men and women think about child care&#8230; which is what feminists attempt to do. Yes, men and women&#8217;s concerns &#8220;need to be looked at&#8221; but we cant ignore the fact that in this equation, women are in the minus.</p>
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		<title>By: Ladyfingers</title>
		<link>http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/alexmatthews/2008/12/03/yelling-%e2%80%9cfuck-off%e2%80%9d-for-feminism/comment-page-1/#comment-63355</link>
		<dc:creator>Ladyfingers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 02:20:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Jennifer, there&#039;s a bit more to modern sexual politics. This stuff is not as simple as &quot;men get lousy paternity leave&quot;. At least outside of the, ahem, less sophisticated parts of South Africa.


Certainly Africa is more than a bit behind in this whole post-feminism regard when you leave the nice middle-class suburbs, but then bringing that up is another political minefield. I just think that Africa can and should learn from how the sexual politics in the West has failed both men and women. It won&#039;t obviously, but one can still dream.

Please bear in mind that I&#039;m playing devil&#039;s advocate here. Explanations are not excuses and I&#039;m not taking sides. But if people feel there is an issue, then there is.

Big, necessary changes in sexual politics have been effected for women, but almost nothing has changed for men, which is why many are, in fact, still such unrepentant troglodytes. 

Perpetrators of domestic violence are officially split 70/30 with complications from what many sociologists believe is massive underreporting from men too embarrassed scared to seek help.

Men are frequently raped - by other men. The law didn&#039;t even recognise it until recently. Being sodomised was considered merely another form of assault.

Boys have fallen substantially behind girls in the academic space. Male-female enrolment ratios at universities are if anything skewed towards females.

Many, many men feel that their workplace is socially hostile, but there is no safe means for them to speak out, due to issues of male sexual identity and an institutional bias towards the side of women in social conflicts.

You&#039;re probably laughing and rolling your eyes, reading some of those things, but the men who perceive themselves to be victims of the aforementioned issues are not. Cue a rise in alcoholism, rape, and violence. Treat men like monsters and that&#039;s how they behave.

And no, I wouldn&#039;t dream of painting a rapist as a victim, but addressing causes is better than simply regarding rape as inherent to masculinity and trying to fix things after the fact.

I think the following article brings up some of the issues better than I could: http://www.reason.com/news/show/29521.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jennifer, there&#8217;s a bit more to modern sexual politics. This stuff is not as simple as &#8220;men get lousy paternity leave&#8221;. At least outside of the, ahem, less sophisticated parts of South Africa.</p>
<p>Certainly Africa is more than a bit behind in this whole post-feminism regard when you leave the nice middle-class suburbs, but then bringing that up is another political minefield. I just think that Africa can and should learn from how the sexual politics in the West has failed both men and women. It won&#8217;t obviously, but one can still dream.</p>
<p>Please bear in mind that I&#8217;m playing devil&#8217;s advocate here. Explanations are not excuses and I&#8217;m not taking sides. But if people feel there is an issue, then there is.</p>
<p>Big, necessary changes in sexual politics have been effected for women, but almost nothing has changed for men, which is why many are, in fact, still such unrepentant troglodytes. </p>
<p>Perpetrators of domestic violence are officially split 70/30 with complications from what many sociologists believe is massive underreporting from men too embarrassed scared to seek help.</p>
<p>Men are frequently raped &#8211; by other men. The law didn&#8217;t even recognise it until recently. Being sodomised was considered merely another form of assault.</p>
<p>Boys have fallen substantially behind girls in the academic space. Male-female enrolment ratios at universities are if anything skewed towards females.</p>
<p>Many, many men feel that their workplace is socially hostile, but there is no safe means for them to speak out, due to issues of male sexual identity and an institutional bias towards the side of women in social conflicts.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re probably laughing and rolling your eyes, reading some of those things, but the men who perceive themselves to be victims of the aforementioned issues are not. Cue a rise in alcoholism, rape, and violence. Treat men like monsters and that&#8217;s how they behave.</p>
<p>And no, I wouldn&#8217;t dream of painting a rapist as a victim, but addressing causes is better than simply regarding rape as inherent to masculinity and trying to fix things after the fact.</p>
<p>I think the following article brings up some of the issues better than I could: <a href="http://www.reason.com/news/show/29521.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.reason.com/news/show/29521.html</a></p>
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